BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: ProDeo on January 14, 2024, 03:23:13 PM
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Just brainstorming.....
We know about the garden, the fall of A&E.
We read - Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.
Assuming one of us means all of heavenly creatures then all already knew the difference between good and evil.
How did all the creatures know, we read about fallen angels, thus angels have free will. So this could be the reason. Maybe, maybe not, but we have 2 cases of free will that end up in sin.
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A bit of Plato
The Cycle of Opposites
The first argument is based on the cyclical interchange by means of which every quality comes into being from its own opposite. Hot comes from cold and cold from hot: that is, hot things are just cold things that have warmed up, and cold things are just hot things that have cooled off. Similarly, people who are awake are just people who were asleep but then woke up, while people who are asleep are just people who were awake but then dozed off.
And so it is with good, it has its opposite which is evil. Love finds its opposite in hate or indifference. Justice finds its opposite in injustice, and so on. Obedience vs disobedience. There seems to be always an opposite.
Will sin be always be on the watch when we are with the Lord?
In Revelation the "tree of life" is mentioned 4 times and the need to eat from it.
Or will God say that He tried 2 times and has showed mankind and angels sufficiently that free will sooner or later will lead to another rebellion and that He wants to take away our free will.
Ouch....
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Without free will there is no such thing as love
God is love, so freedom of the will must always exist
Part of the glory of eternity with Jesus will be the power to choose not to sin
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Free will results in sin because we're morally imperfect.
God has 'free will' (whatever we mean by that when applying it to God), and He does not sin, nor can He sin. God cannot sin any more than He can create a logical contradiction. Yet God is still free and in fact, more free than any other being.
This means that we, too, could be morally perfect and perfectly free, yet without the ability to sin. (So why didn't God create a morally perfect creation?) The freedom to do evil, isn't really freedom.
"We" obtained our knowledge of good and evil from disobedience, sin, etc. The problem isn't that we know but how we came to know. We effectively stole the knowledge for ourselves rather than it having been given.
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Without free will there is no such thing as love
God is love, so freedom of the will must always exist
[!]
Yes.
OTOH, voluntarily giving up your free will also is an act of love.
But... you are making much more sense.
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Human moral imperfection, before the fall, did not exist and was not a factor until the decision to sin. Man's free will was his perfection and he chose out of that free will to sin. Man's sin belongs to man, and was not the result of inherent moral imperfection. Thus: the Fall.
Man's new nature through Christ and the rebirth is a spirit and is does not sin.
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1JN3:9
So the difference between Adam and the reedeemed is the very Spirit of God who dwells within.
"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2Pt 1:4
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Human moral imperfection, before the fall, did not exist and was not a factor until the decision to sin. Man's free will was his perfection and he chose out of that free will to sin. Man's sin belongs to man, and was not the result of inherent moral imperfection. Thus: the Fall.
Man's new nature through Christ and the rebirth is a spirit and is does not sin.
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1JN3:9
So the difference between Adam and the reedeemed is the very Spirit of God who dwells within.
"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." 2Pt 1:4
We have never been morally perfect. If we were morally perfect, we would have never sinned. That we're morally imperfect and sinned is still on us. Moral imperfection doesn't mean we have to sin, only that we can sin should we choose. Similarly, Adam and Eve were free to choose before they knew good and evil.
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Free will results in sin because we're morally imperfect.
God has 'free will' (whatever we mean by that when applying it to God), and He does not sin, nor can He sin. God cannot sin any more than He can create a logical contradiction. Yet God is still free and in fact, more free than any other being.
This means that we, too, could be morally perfect and perfectly free, yet without the ability to sin. (So why didn't God create a morally perfect creation?) The freedom to do evil, isn't really freedom.
"We" obtained our knowledge of good and evil from disobedience, sin, etc. The problem isn't that we know but how we came to know. We effectively stole the knowledge for ourselves rather than it having been given.
On the blue, since angels have fallen as well, are they also morally imperfect?
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Yes
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In a way that is a reassurance considering there are angels (likely the vast majority) that never sinned.
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Without free will, human existence has no meaning.
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The bible nowhere talks about human freewill, there are about 2-3 mentions in the OT only with regard to freewill offerings.
No epistle says "thanks be unto God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill" it's laughable isn't it.
You would think it would be in every chapter and verse of the bible after all you can't pick up a gospel tract or article or read a christian book without it being hammered into your mind. Man has a freewill and may act and choose accordingly. It is exactly the same tactic they use to brainwash folks into believing in evolution. Everybody knows we evolved right? it's proven fact, the scientists all agree.
But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.
We DO have a will but the bible says it is in bondage, a slave to sin and bound to death. Before we can be saved God has to set us free and this He does miraculously at the preaching of the gospel.
Jesus died on the cross to set us FREE, free from ourselves, from our will which is set in emnity with God.
's no such thing as freewill.
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Bible doesn’t mention the Trinity either.
Do you believe in it?
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If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.
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Bible doesn’t mention the Trinity either.
Do you believe in it?
God's triune nature can be discerned in scripture.
You can't say at the same time we were in bondage, slaves to sin, bound to die [I am speaking about before we were saved] and we had freewill.
Jesus died to set us FREE and that is a different state altogether, our condition as slaves is the reason why He must die, so that we might also die in Him and so be FREE.
.... but let us not now say we were already free.
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If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.
Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.
"we have turned every one of us to our own way and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"
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If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.
Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.
"we have turned every one of us to our own way and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"
Did Joshua issue a command that the people could not obey?
Do Christians have the ability to resist Satan?
Did God create some humans to fuel the fires of hell?
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Not sure how our free will is not evident as a reality when we have the innate capacity to either willfully commit sin, or else refrain from it.
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Not sure how our free will is not evident as a reality when we have the innate capacity to either willfully commit sin, or else refrain from it.
You have to remember
The hard core Calvinist does not believe you are anything but a puppet.
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If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.
Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.
"we have turned every one of us to our own way and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"
An illusion? If free will is an illusion then we have to explain how Adam and Eve's choice to eat the fruit of the tree was not their choice. If eating of the tree was not their choice, then who made the choice for them and then ensured they followed through with the choice that was made for them.
Some support, John 5: 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. In context Jesus has pointed out that they are in error of their understanding of OT Scripture. Thus, are unwilling to come to Him (believe in Him). Clear indication that they have a choice to respond to what the OT Scriptures are truly saying about Jesus. Jump to John 8:24 where Jesus reveals consequence for "their" choice.
Jesus is not revealing we have a deception causing us to sin, we have a choice to sin.
I'll pause with this so far because there is much more to discern concerning choice, response, accountability, etc.
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If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.
Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.
"we have turned every one of us to our own way and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"
Did Joshua issue a command that the people could not obey?
Do Christians have the ability to resist Satan?
Did God create some humans to fuel the fires of hell?
Choice is not freewill, the One who gives the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, we are not even free not to choose. The choice put before mankind has always been the same in essence.
Live or die
be blest or be cursed
Our sovereign Lord God who both arbitrates and implements whichever choice we make so we are serving His will, if we had freewill we could say to God "okay God, I will not obey You but I refuse to die" .... can you do that?
What if God doesn't give you the choice, if you were a Chinaman or a red Indian living in the days of Joshua you did not have the choice of to "obey and live"
Jesus has given us the ability and taught us how to resist Satan. Before we were saved we like everyone else obeyed the prince of the power of the air.
God did not create any man for hell.
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Not sure how our free will is not evident as a reality when we have the innate capacity to either willfully commit sin, or else refrain from it.
But you can't [and I mean before we are saved] choose not to sin, it's like trying to fit a large lady into a slim garment, you may push one part in but another part will bulge out alarmingly.
Sin is a condition of soul, a state. we commit sins because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we commit sins. And all the freewill in the world can't save us from it ... only the cross.
... nor will freewil prevent us from dying.
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What if God doesn't give you the choice, if you were a Chinaman or a red Indian living in the days of Joshua you did not have the choice of to "obey and live"
All have a choice in believing in the evidence of God (Romans 1:18-20) and to make "their" choice and if they don't choose God, then Romans 1:21+.
Concerning your statement in the quoted section, let's take an example out of scripture, both OT and divide with NT.
Rahab... a choice to believe in God and choose to help Israel. She wasn't compelled either way, she chose. Then we find that due to her belief in God (faith), we have proof in the NT of her spiritual salvation due to her faithful response to grace.
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But you can't [and I mean before we are saved] choose not to sin, it's like trying to fit a large lady into a slim garment, you may push one part in but another part will bulge out alarmingly.
Sin is a condition of soul, a state. we commit sins because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we commit sins. And all the freewill in the world can't save us from it ... only the cross.
... nor will freewil prevent us from dying.
Free will encompasses the freedom to act according to one's own volition, and there are many examples of man making critical choices, both in scripture and life experiences. In scripture, it began with Adam and Eve's free will choice to disobey God concerning the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. As God told Cain, "But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it (Gen 4:7). These are clearly examples of choosing to sin or not.
Faith in Jesus' shed blood takes away sin's power through intercession and by delivering us from the divine judgment and condemnation we deserve. You can be saved from a poisonous snake bite by means of antivenom. But that substance will not help you if you don't choose to actively receive it. In the same way, Jesus has the power to save us, but we must actively receive His salvation. And that is the ultimate example of free will.
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Bible doesn’t mention the Trinity either.
Do you believe in it?
God's triune nature can be discerned in scripture.
You can't say at the same time we were in bondage, slaves to sin, bound to die [I am speaking about before we were saved] and we had freewill.
Jesus died to set us FREE and that is a different state altogether, our condition as slaves is the reason why He must die, so that we might also die in Him and so be FREE.
.... but let us not now say we were already free.
He can't help it; God, in his sovereignty, decided for him to write that response, just as he decided for you to write your response and me, this response. Puppets everywhere!
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Our sovereign Lord God who both arbitrates and implements whichever choice we make so we are serving His will, if we had freewill we could say to God "okay God, I will not obey You but I refuse to die" .... can you do that?
The more I've been thinking about this topic, your response in this portion of what you wrote earlier actually supports free will.
God told Adam, don't eat from one specific tree.
Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Adam understood God's will and informed Eve of God's will, who based on the following scripture, understood God's will.
Gen 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Remember, at this time they have no sin, are not carnal in anyway what so ever.
They freely choose to not obey and ate of the tree.
Unless, you're true argument is God made the choice, that they DO eat of the tree?
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Our sovereign Lord God who both arbitrates and implements whichever choice we make so we are serving His will, if we had freewill we could say to God "okay God, I will not obey You but I refuse to die" .... can you do that?
The more I've been thinking about this topic, your response in this portion of what you wrote earlier actually supports free will.
God told Adam, don't eat from one specific tree.
Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Adam understood God's will and informed Eve of God's will, who based on the following scripture, understood God's will.
Gen 3:2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Remember, at this time they have no sin, are not carnal in anyway what so ever.
They freely choose to not obey and ate of the tree.
Unless, you're true argument is God made the choice, that they DO eat of the tree?
Apologies I have not got the hang of this format yet. This is Billy Evmur's reply
Adam and Eve were wholly carnal.
How can it be freewill? it is a question of life or death, a question of obedience,
if you obey My will you shall live
if you disobey My will you shall die ... dead men do not have freewill
Here is the great deception, the only way Satan can get man to even consider rebelling is by taking away the embargo "you shall surely die" in other words "you have freewill in this matter, you can do as it pleases you. There are no consequences."
This is the deception that strengthened Adam's hand to sin and it is the same deception that strengthens the hand of sin today ... and the church is teaching it.
Adam and Eve were FREE just so long as they stayed within the perimeters of God's will ... God's will for man is only good, God's will is perfect. The doctrine of human freewill is a profound distrust of God's will.
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Bible doesn’t mention the Trinity either.
Do you believe in it?
God's triune nature can be discerned in scripture.
You can't say at the same time we were in bondage, slaves to sin, bound to die [I am speaking about before we were saved] and we had freewill.
Jesus died to set us FREE and that is a different state altogether, our condition as slaves is the reason why He must die, so that we might also die in Him and so be FREE.
.... but let us not now say we were already free.
He can't help it; God, in his sovereignty, decided for him to write that response, just as he decided for you to write your response and me, this response. Puppets everywhere!
If you have no argument to offer you might try a cheap shot ...
We are not puppets, what we have is the life of Christ within. God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure.
Don't you want Christ to dwell IN YOU?.
The devil makes puppets of men and women.
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But you can't [and I mean before we are saved] choose not to sin, it's like trying to fit a large lady into a slim garment, you may push one part in but another part will bulge out alarmingly.
Sin is a condition of soul, a state. we commit sins because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we commit sins. And all the freewill in the world can't save us from it ... only the cross.
... nor will freewil prevent us from dying.
Free will encompasses the freedom to act according to one's own volition, and there are many examples of man making critical choices, both in scripture and life experiences. In scripture, it began with Adam and Eve's free will choice to disobey God concerning the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. As God told Cain, "But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it (Gen 4:7). These are clearly examples of choosing to sin or not.
Faith in Jesus' shed blood takes away sin's power through intercession and by delivering us from the divine judgment and condemnation we deserve. You can be saved from a poisonous snake bite by means of antivenom. But that substance will not help you if you don't choose to actively receive it. In the same way, Jesus has the power to save us, but we must actively receive His salvation. And that is the ultimate example of free will.
What God said to Cain was in essence "if you do not according to My will, the devil is ready to force you to do his will"
Freewill is not on offer here. No man can serve two master, but he will serve.
Paul teaches that we actually become slaves to the one whose word we obey. either sin unto death or righteousness unto life. I acknowledge that Paul uses the word slave guardedly, but his meaning is clear.
As Christians we are set FREE, this is a wholly new state or condition to be in. But we must stay free. We were like fishies flapping around on the river bank and the Lord has kindly chucked us back into water, as long as we stay in our proper habitat we shall be perfectly happy and free to be all that we are created to be.
To backslide into freewill is to step back to bondage for our wills will lead us there.
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Apologies I have not got the hang of this format yet. This is Billy Evmur's reply
No problem brother, will do what I can to clean this up as I reply :-) A suggestion, when you click quote (top right) to reply, immediately click the preview at the bottom right and you can grab the to long dashes that are center bottom of the window and stretch down the area and see all the whole post and control where and when to break up quoting/replying.
Adam and Eve were wholly carnal.
Before or after they ate of the tree? If before, can you post the verse that leads you to conclude this.
How can it be freewill? it is a question of life or death, a question of obedience,
if you obey My will you shall live
if you disobey My will you shall die ... dead men do not have freewill
Again, another response that supports freewill. "IF" you obey or "IF" you disobey... supports that mankind makes a choice and their choice has fruit. If they obey, blessing/salvation. If they disobey, curse/condemnation.
Here is the great deception, the only way Satan can get man to even consider rebelling is by taking away the embargo "you shall surely die" in other words "you have freewill in this matter, you can do as it pleases you. There are no consequences.
If man has no freewill and can't make a choice for themselves, who is making the choice FOR man, satan or God? If you ignore my whole post, at least answer this question in blue.
This is the deception that strengthened Adam's hand to sin and it is the same deception that strengthens the hand of sin today ... and the church is teaching it.
Do you have any scriptures to support your comment here?
Adam and Eve were FREE just so long as they stayed within the perimeters of God's will ... God's will for man is only good, God's will is perfect. The doctrine of human freewill is a profound distrust of God's will.
The part in bold/underline, I agree with. Then who made the choice for Adam/Eve to eat of the tree? Man does not distrust God's will, they either submit to (be obedient) or transgress against (sin) His will and WHAT causes either choice? Freewill or... what?
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If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.
Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.
So when God said - don't eat from that tree else... - A&E were without defense? And then punished by God?
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I won't have time to add much to this discussion but I love this quote from a C.H. Surgeon sermon on this topic.
That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
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Great quote. That God has foreordained who will dwell with Him in eternity and who will not is due to His omniscience, and in no way diminishes our responsibility to obey God and to respond to His offer of salvation. On the contrary, free will impels us to consciously submit ourselves wholeheartedly to the will of our Creator.
The animals created prior to Adam and Eve have hard-wired brains that follow blind, natural instinct, and live in the moment. Mankind, on the other hand, was created with free will--the innate capacity to choose to either obey or disobey God--because He wanted spontaneous interaction and fellowship on a personal, voluntary level. There is little merit or value in praise offered without sincere conviction.
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Free will encompasses the freedom to act according to one's own volition, and there are many examples of man making critical choices, both in scripture and life experiences. In scripture, it began with Adam and Eve's free will choice to disobey God concerning the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. As God told Cain, "But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it (Gen 4:7). These are clearly examples of choosing to sin or not.
This is an excellent summary of the human experience.
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I won't have time to add much to this discussion but I love this quote from a C.H. Surgeon sermon on this topic.
That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
Hooah. Here is something I recently wrote (maybe even in this thread) in effort to understand how God's will, freewill and pre-destination, culminate:
Ordained will and permissive will must be looked at and studied throughout God's Word. The reason I point this out is because if there is "only" ordained will, then mankind cannot transgress (sin). God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.
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Apologies I have not got the hang of this format yet. This is Billy Evmur's reply
No problem brother, will do what I can to clean this up as I reply :-) A suggestion, when you click quote (top right) to reply, immediately click the preview at the bottom right and you can grab the to long dashes that are center bottom of the window and stretch down the area and see all the whole post and control where and when to break up quoting/replying.
Adam and Eve were wholly carnal.
Before or after they ate of the tree? If before, can you post the verse that leads you to conclude this.
How can it be freewill? it is a question of life or death, a question of obedience,
if you obey My will you shall live
if you disobey My will you shall die ... dead men do not have freewill
Again, another response that supports freewill. "IF" you obey or "IF" you disobey... supports that mankind makes a choice and their choice has fruit. If they obey, blessing/salvation. If they disobey, curse/condemnation.
Here is the great deception, the only way Satan can get man to even consider rebelling is by taking away the embargo "you shall surely die" in other words "you have freewill in this matter, you can do as it pleases you. There are no consequences.
If man has no freewill and can't make a choice for themselves, who is making the choice FOR man, satan or God? If you ignore my whole post, at least answer this question in blue.
This is the deception that strengthened Adam's hand to sin and it is the same deception that strengthens the hand of sin today ... and the church is teaching it.
Do you have any scriptures to support your comment here?
Adam and Eve were FREE just so long as they stayed within the perimeters of God's will ... God's will for man is only good, God's will is perfect. The doctrine of human freewill is a profound distrust of God's will.
The part in bold/underline, I agree with. Then who made the choice for Adam/Eve to eat of the tree? Man does not distrust God's will, they either submit to (be obedient) or transgress against (sin) His will and WHAT causes either choice? Freewill or... what?
Was Adam spirit?
1. Cor. 15.45
Thus it is written, the first man Adam became a living being, the second Adam became a life giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical and then the spiritual.
No, if you obey you are doing God's will, if you don't obey you are dead.
Choice is not freewill. They did not even have freewill to not choose. Freewill would say "Okay God I will disobey you but I shall not die"
The One who gives the options is the One with free sovereign will.
I'm not saying man doesn't have a will, I am saying it is not free, since Adam it is [says Paul] in bondage, a slave to sin. Bondage and slavery is no way to spell freewill.
What prevented Adam from having freewill was God's embargo "thou shalt not eat of it" and the warning that followed on "thou shalt surely die"
The great deception was that he would not surely die ... that is what strengthened him to sin. The deception that he had freewill.
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Was Adam spirit?
1. Cor. 15.45
Thus it is written, the first man Adam became a living being, the second Adam became a life giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical and then the spiritual.
This did not address my question because I did not ask if Adam was a spirit. Can you focus in whether or not Adam/Eve were carnal prior to eating of the tree.
After we can focus on A/E spiritual standing (alive or dead) before God, prior to eating of the tree, then we can discern how 1 Cor 15:45 relates or not.
Freewill would say "Okay God I will disobey you but I shall not die"
You keep going back to this statement, but without a verse for support, it's a statement.
The One who gives the options is the One with free sovereign will.
Gives the options! Are we able to choose WHICH option? Again, some of your statements prove mankind has freewill to choose "which" option.
I'm not saying man doesn't have a will, I am saying it is not free, since Adam it is [says Paul] in bondage, a slave to sin. Bondage and slavery is no way to spell freewill.
Since! Since Adam BEFORE or AFTER he ate from the tree?
What prevented Adam from having freewill was God's embargo "thou shalt not eat of it" and the warning that followed on "thou shalt surely die"
Again, more support for freewill because God's embargo did NOT embargo (prevent) Adam from choosing wrong and thus, by choosing wrong, he died spiritually.
The great deception was that he would not surely die ... that is what strengthened him to sin. The deception that he had freewill.
This statement is very convoluted. I will attempt to understand your statement:
1- The great deception was that he would not surely die - OK, easy to understand: satan lying that they would not die is a hook for the temptation to take hold and A/E believed the lie.
2- that is what strengthened him to sin - strengthen? This is an assumption. Granted A/E were naive to temptation but they were NOT naive concerning God's will about that tree.
3- The deception that he had freewill. - This is where it begins to become convoluted because you lead (#1) the statement with how A/E are temped by a lie about how they will not die if they eat of the tree. Then you begin to deviate from a scriptural position that they were lied to (this is clear in Genesis), by assuming the lie strengthened them to make a choice AGAINST God's will. #3, you toss in this final statement that has NO context to how A/E were temped by a specific lie about not dying. All you are doing is holding yourself up to your belief, as if you have to constantly reassure yourself, they don't have a choice to transgress against God's will.
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So when God said - don't eat from that tree else... - A&E were without defense? And then punished by God?
@Billy, thank you for the like you gave at post #29, but really, this was a rhetoric question.
I don't think God does such things.
As a father I don't ask the impossible of my kids and then punish them.
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Perhaps some would like to take a long hard look at Molinism and the writings on the subject by William Lane Craig. Some excellent videos available as well.
Free will and God's sovereignty are perfectly compatible.
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So when God said - don't eat from that tree else... - A&E were without defense? And then punished by God?
@Billy, thank you for the like you gave at post #29, but really, this was a rhetoric question.
I don't think God does such things.
As a father I don't ask the impossible of my kids and then punish them.
Where did God ask the impossible? He said "thou shalt not eat of it" for some reason y'all interpret that as "you have freewill ... do as you please"
If you say as a father to your kids "you have freewill ... do as you please" and they smash up the neighbourhood then you are responsible.
Paul teaches that we are in bondage prior to being saved, slaves to sin, what part of that reads freewill?
We are bound to die. Death is not just pointing up our toes and croaking, that is just the point of death. No death has become our shepherd, it rules over us.
We must eat, we have to be clothed, we need shelter or we will die. For all this we need money, we have to work, don't forget to wind that old clock up. Our whole life is taken up with preventing death. We have no freewill in these matters. Death has bound us and the cause of death is sin to whom we are slaves.
Unless God has mercy upon us we are doomed. Thanks be to God He has had mercy, He sent His Son who has set us FREE.
But don't say we were already free. It's an insult. And we didn't choose Him, He chose us.
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But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.
Deuteronomy 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.
To "choose" some outcome means to exercise free will and to select from a list of options.
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1Tim 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Petr 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
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But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.
Deuteronomy 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.
To "choose" some outcome means to exercise free will and to select from a list of options.
So they MUST choose, they cannot not choose. And they must choose of the options which are set before them.
They cannot choose to reject God and still live ... a whole load of people would like that option.
If they choose life, that is God's will, if they choose death, dead men do not have freewill.
The doctrine of human freewill is a backslidden position ... is the church backslidden?
When we first came to Jesus we SURRENDERED, that's what we did. We received Him as LORD. It was our will which was in rebellion to Him [and I have never said man does not have a will ... only it is not free] we had turned every one to his own way, like sheep who had gone astray. Do sheep have freewill?
What God does is conquer our will with His love, He may do it softly or He may rough it up for us a little like He did with Paul. There he was knocked off his high horse scrambling around in the dust, blind. Yeh you can say technically he had freewill.
But we don't like being conquered do we? we don't like to admit we have been beaten. We soon recover our poise, especially after we have been to disciple school and learned all about human freewill, even though the bible never says anything about it.
And we start to say "I chose Christ" Jesus said "you did not choose Me but I chose you" "I made a decision" none of this terminology is in the bible.
Can you imagine Peter opening his epistle "thanks be unto God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill" it's laffable.
No it's always "Thanks be unto God who had mercy upon us and saved us of His own grace and mercy."
And we did not love Him but He loved us.
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But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.
Deuteronomy 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.
To "choose" some outcome means to exercise free will and to select from a list of options.
So they MUST choose, they cannot not choose.
The red, can you support that with Scripture?
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Free will
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And from Alice in Wonderland....
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less. ' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things. ' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all."
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And from Alice in Wonderland....
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less. ' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things. ' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all."
:)
To whom is the bachelor married ?
Indeed, there is no choice.
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I was predestined to have free will.
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Bible doesn’t mention the Trinity either.
Do you believe in it?
God's triune nature can be discerned in scripture.
You can't say at the same time we were in bondage, slaves to sin, bound to die [I am speaking about before we were saved] and we had freewill.
Jesus died to set us FREE and that is a different state altogether, our condition as slaves is the reason why He must die, so that we might also die in Him and so be FREE.
.... but let us not now say we were already free.
He can't help it; God, in his sovereignty, decided for him to write that response, just as he decided for you to write your response and me, this response. Puppets everywhere!
If you have no argument to offer you might try a cheap shot ...
We are not puppets, what we have is the life of Christ within. God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure.
Don't you want Christ to dwell IN YOU?.
The devil makes puppets of men and women.
Oh, that is the argument, but I can see that you were predestined not to understand it. That's okay, it's not your fault and you're not to blame nor do you hold any responsibility in that.
If you want to progress the argument (assuming it's proper to call it "want" as this implies choice) you'll need to overcome that. Ignoring such a foundational conflict to play at proof-texting scripture is just a bit nonsensical.
If there is no free will then this is all play-pretend. So, unless you want to soften the claim there's really nothing to argue about except that you want to pretend we exercise any responsibility in our choices when according to the view offered, we don't.
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But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.
Deuteronomy 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.
To "choose" some outcome means to exercise free will and to select from a list of options.
So they MUST choose, they cannot not choose.
The red, can you support that with Scripture?
@Billy, I am still waiting for answer, you can not make a statement not in Scripture and build a doctrine on that.
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If they choose life, that is God's will, if they choose death, dead men do not have freewill.
I... have no idea what this means.
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To me, free will remains the logical answer as to why people are allowed to do terrible things to others. For the most part, a person is permitted to kill, rob or rape a victim without God's intervention. Why? Because we have free will to do as we choose, right or wrong. Of course, that comes with the caveat that the guilty will eventually be held accountable and punished by God. His justice is not always swift, but it is sure and certain.
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To me, free will remains the logical answer as to why people are allowed to do terrible things to others. For the most part, a person is permitted to kill, rob or rape a victim without God's intervention. Why? Because we have free will to do as we choose, right or wrong. Of course, that comes with the caveat that the guilty will eventually be held accountable and punished by God. His justice is not always swift, but it is sure and certain.
That is so far wrong it is difficult to know where to begin.
People are allowed, by God you mean, to kill, rob or rape without intervention.
The fact is if God had not and did not intervene no man or woman would ever dare to leave his home, we not only have mighty angels to protect us we have a system of governance which provides law and order and police to enforce it and justice to recompence the law breaker. All this is from God.
People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.
Mebbe if the church started preaching the TRUTH as it is in the bible and if murderers and rapers would see that they are slaves to sin and Satan who will drag them down to hell they would cry out as in olden days "brethren what must we do to be saved?"
Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."
"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.
You say it was their will, I do not deny, but it was not freewill but a will in bondage.
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That is so far wrong it is difficult to know where to begin.
People are allowed, by God you mean, to kill, rob or rape without intervention.
The fact is if God had not and did not intervene no man or woman would ever dare to leave his home, we not only have mighty angels to protect us we have a system of governance which provides law and order and police to enforce it and justice to recompence the law breaker. All this is from God.
People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.
Mebbe if the church started preaching the TRUTH as it is in the bible and if murderers and rapers would see that they are slaves to sin and Satan who will drag them down to hell they would cry out as in olden days "brethren what must we do to be saved?"
Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."
"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.
You say it was their will, I do not deny, but it was not freewill but a will in bondage.
By discounting free will and blaming it all on being a slave to sin, you actually mitigate the culpability of the guilty. After all, as powerless slaves, they have no choice but to obey their sinful nature, so why should they be punished? The sheer number of murders, rapes, robberies and other crimes committed around the world every year is mind-boggling. Millions of lives have been destroyed as the result of child sexual abuse and human trafficking. All of these offenses and more occur because the perpetrators choose to sin--and that choice is the essence of free will.
The unsaved are indeed slaves to sin, and even the saved must struggle with it until Jesus returns to redeem our carnal nature. But a predilection to sin doesn't negate the exercise of free will. Being a slave to sin equates to acting of our own volition in accordance with an innate propensity toward evil. Free will represents people having the freedom to do either good or evil--unlike animals, which blindly follow natural instinct. Free will is not a failed concept. Denial of its reality is.
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Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."
Christians do not reason that when a person does evil, the bed is made and must lay in it. Christians understand that anyone who has done evil before God, they can choose to repent, seek Him in/for forgiveness and their sin(s) is/are not accountable anymore.
People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.
A quick comment, if your statement was true, then ALL of mankind would kill, rob, and rape because no person has Christ until they "choose" to believe and accept Him as Lord. But reality is, not all kill, rob, and rape, even those who never choose to believe in Christ. Why don't all people "do it" as you say they will do, i.e. it's the will of the devil (as you say)?? It's because of free will. Even those without Christ CAN choose NOT to kill, rob or rape.
Freewill does the opposite of what you say because any evil doer can repent. Jesus LITERALLY came for those who are sinners (Matthew 9:13). So a Christian who says what you say they say...
"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.
... is a misrepresentation of Christianity. No "Christian" would even say, "let them rot in hell" because Christians don't want anyone to go to hell. Why is that? Because as a Christian matures through their sanctification, they become more like Christ and He desires that ALL of mankind, repents.
Just the other day I posted this on Facebook, maybe somewhere on this board as well:
Thought for the day:Are a Christian's words or actions discrediting Christ Jesus and Christianity? Then the words or actions are not from, nor are they led by the Holy Spirit.
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That is so far wrong it is difficult to know where to begin.
People are allowed, by God you mean, to kill, rob or rape without intervention.
The fact is if God had not and did not intervene no man or woman would ever dare to leave his home, we not only have mighty angels to protect us we have a system of governance which provides law and order and police to enforce it and justice to recompence the law breaker. All this is from God.
People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.
Mebbe if the church started preaching the TRUTH as it is in the bible and if murderers and rapers would see that they are slaves to sin and Satan who will drag them down to hell they would cry out as in olden days "brethren what must we do to be saved?"
Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."
"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.
You say it was their will, I do not deny, but it was not freewill but a will in bondage.
By discounting free will and blaming it all on being a slave to sin, you actually mitigate the culpability of the guilty. After all, as powerless slaves, they have no choice but to obey their sinful nature, so why should they be punished? The sheer number of murders, rapes, robberies and other crimes committed around the world every year is mind-boggling. Millions of lives have been destroyed as the result of child sexual abuse and human trafficking. All of these offenses and more occur because the perpetrators choose to sin--and that choice is the essence of free will.
The unsaved are indeed slaves to sin, and even the saved must struggle with it until Jesus returns to redeem our carnal nature. But a predilection to sin doesn't negate the exercise of free will. Being a slave to sin equates to acting of our own volition in accordance with an innate propensity toward evil. Free will represents people having the freedom to do either good or evil--unlike animals, which blindly follow natural instinct. Free will is not a failed concept. Denial of its reality is.
You say yourself the unsaved are slaves to sin they have no choice but to obey their sinful nature.
You do not seem to grasp the reality of man's position, he is already lost, doomed, dead, without God and without hope.
How do you expect such people to live?
But God does not leave him to simply putrify which is what man would do. We live in a so called free society where men and even women march into schools where little kids play with high power assault rifles. Where kids are hanging themselves on trees and sticking it to each other in the school yard.
I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home. Yet you say have freewill. It is funny how freewill religion did not hardly show it's face in Nazi Germany. And it will prove itself just as ineffective in America as the darkness deepens.
But God has determined to save mankind. He may woo but if wooing fails He has an array of other weapons to use.
He intends to CONQUER man's will which is set in rebellion to Him, subjugate it to His own.
When we first came to Him we came in surrender, we laid our will at His feet and accepted His Lordship and very glad we were that we did. We didn't become puppets we received the Spirit of God to dwell in us and live in us willing IN US to do of His good pleasure.
Freewill doctrine is a backslidden doctrine.
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I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.
You've been repeating this. If I may ask, at what age did you believe in Christ as your Lord?
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Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."
Christians do not reason that when a person does evil, the bed is made and must lay in it. Christians understand that anyone who has done evil before God, they can choose to repent, seek Him in/for forgiveness and their sin(s) is/are not accountable anymore.
People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.
A quick comment, if your statement was true, then ALL of mankind would kill, rob, and rape because no person has Christ until they "choose" to believe and accept Him as Lord. But reality is, not all kill, rob, and rape, even those who never choose to believe in Christ. Why don't all people "do it" as you say they will do, i.e. it's the will of the devil (as you say)?? It's because of free will. Even those without Christ CAN choose NOT to kill, rob or rape.
Freewill does the opposite of what you say because any evil doer can repent. Jesus LITERALLY came for those who are sinners (Matthew 9:13). So a Christian who says what you say they say...
"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.
... is a misrepresentation of Christianity. No "Christian" would even say, "let them rot in hell" because Christians don't want anyone to go to hell. Why is that? Because as a Christian matures through their sanctification, they become more like Christ and He desires that ALL of mankind, repents.
Just the other day I posted this on Facebook, maybe somewhere on this board as well:
Thought for the day:Are a Christian's words or actions discrediting Christ Jesus and Christianity? Then the words or actions are not from, nor are they led by the Holy Spirit.
Did you ever hear the saying "there but for the grace of God go I" ? Why do you think you are not a killer, a raper and a robber?
You have been angry, you have looked with desire ... you didn't follow through mebbe, what stopped you? I'll tell you what it wasn't, it wasn't your own natural goodness.
Jesus said about salt losing it's savour. We see how this works out in society, as godliness decreases evil takes root in human society and spreads like cancer until the whole of society is infected ... open your eyes, it's where we are going.
Freewill religion will not stop it.
The Holy Spirit sent down from heaven will stop it, He doesn't ask anybody "please sir may I save you today?" He pierces the heart and makes men and women to cry out to be saved.
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I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.
You've been repeating this. If I may ask, at what age did you believe in Christ as your Lord?
I was saved in '77 at age 26 ...
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I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.
You've been repeating this. If I may ask, at what age did you believe in Christ as your Lord?
By the way I am not saying nobody gets saved by freewill preaching, many get saved but that does not make it a true doctrine. AND I believe a great many MORE would be saved by the gospel first preached at the reformation and the Great Awakening.
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Billy, can you sin?
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I was saved in '77 at age 26 ...
Interesting, I was 26 when I believed and accepted Christ as Lord :-)
By the way I am not saying nobody gets saved by freewill preaching,
I'll say it then, nobody is saved "by" free will. The Gospel is preached so that people can make a "choice" to believe in Christ or a "choice" not to believe in Christ.
I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.
Help me understand the meaning of the quoted part, about your repeated accusation that others would not dare to leave their home if not for God.
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I was saved in '77 at age 26 ...
Interesting, I was 26 when I believed and accepted Christ as Lord :-)
By the way I am not saying nobody gets saved by freewill preaching,
I'll say it then, nobody is saved "by" free will. The Gospel is preached so that people can make a "choice" to believe in Christ or a "choice" not to believe in Christ.
I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.
Help me understand the meaning of the quoted part, about your repeated accusation that others would not dare to leave their home if not for God.
where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible
Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
That was about choosing the 12 [!]
Context bro.
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible
Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God
The Bible is clear, "all" of mankind (whosoever), has been provided grace and faith. Been this way starting since the Garden after the fall of mankind, all through both the OT (examples of Scripture revealing choosing - Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15; 30:19-20; Joshua 24:14-15) and the NT (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:11; ). To understand the NT verses about "being" chosen while other scriptures (OT and NT) that reveal our response by grace through faith is NOT irresistibly forced upon us, we have to account for God's sovereign foreknowledge and what He does (predestines mankind), with that knowledge. God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.
By grace, through faith. Mankind can either choose God or not to choose God. Jesus' sacrifice is for all of mankind, before even creation.
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible
Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God
The Bible is clear, "all" of mankind (whosoever), has been provided grace and faith. Been this way starting since the Garden after the fall of mankind, all through both the OT (examples of Scripture revealing choosing - Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15; 30:19-20; Joshua 24:14-15) and the NT (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:11; ). To understand the NT verses about "being" chosen while other scriptures (OT and NT) that reveal our response by grace through faith is NOT irresistibly forced upon us, we have to account for God's sovereign foreknowledge and what He does (predestines mankind), with that knowledge. God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.
By grace, through faith. Mankind can either choose God or not to choose God. Jesus' sacrifice is for all of mankind, before even creation.
This is just where you make your mistake
Adam was FREE, you and I are not. Adam was free as long as he stayed within the perimeter of God's will, he did not do so he was deceived into believing he he could disobey God and not die i.e. that he had freewill.
Freewill is the devil's first and most effective trick. He uses it still today to lure mankind into sin.
Whereas Adam was free he has sold us into slavery. We are says Paul slaves to sin, servants of the one who we obey. And with sin comes death. Death has become our shepherd, it governs our whole life for we must work our whole lives to ward off death. If we do not work we do not eat.
You call that freewill.
But glory to God He has sent Jesus to come and set us FREE ... "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you FREE ... if the Son shall set you free you shall be free indeed" He rescued us with a glorious salvation.
If you had been free before there would have been no need for the cross. Jesus could have come and taught us and given us an example to follow and we could have chosen to follow Him. But it was impossible because we were bound by sin and death. By His death we could die to our old selves, our will which is not free but in bondage to sin.
The freewill doctrine is a backsliding to our old way ... though we be saved.
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible
Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God
The Bible is clear, "all" of mankind (whosoever), has been provided grace and faith. Been this way starting since the Garden after the fall of mankind, all through both the OT (examples of Scripture revealing choosing - Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15; 30:19-20; Joshua 24:14-15) and the NT (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:11; ). To understand the NT verses about "being" chosen while other scriptures (OT and NT) that reveal our response by grace through faith is NOT irresistibly forced upon us, we have to account for God's sovereign foreknowledge and what He does (predestines mankind), with that knowledge. God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.
By grace, through faith. Mankind can either choose God or not to choose God. Jesus' sacrifice is for all of mankind, before even creation.
You can choose IF
If God sets you free to choose, if He gives you a choice to make ... He can open your ears to hear, He can stop up the ears so that hearing you do not understand. He can open your eyes to see or He can leave you in blindness and in unbelief.
"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
That was about choosing the 12 [!]
Context bro.
So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
That was about choosing the 12 [!]
Context bro.
So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?
In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -
Context -
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.
Nothing to do with our free will discussion.
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this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God
Have you seen the news lately? I think God is content to let people express their free will via sin.
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"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?
Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
That was about choosing the 12 [!]
Context bro.
So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?
In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -
Context -
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.
Nothing to do with our free will discussion.
If it had nothing to do with freewill why did you quote it?
Abide in Me and let My words abide in you, only for the 12 eh?
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this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God
Have you seen the news lately? I think God is content to let people express their free will via sin.
Is that what you think when you see the shootist at work in schools?
I see a slave of Satan
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
That was about choosing the 12 [!]
Context bro.
So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?
In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -
Context -
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.
Nothing to do with our free will discussion.
If it had nothing to do with freewill why did you quote it?
Because YOU made it an argument for your doctrine there is no free will.
And you were wrong.
Abide in Me and let My words abide in you, only for the 12 eh?
From which of what I said do you conclude that I think or believe that???
Please don't do this kind of rhetoric, it's insulting.
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Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.
"All" doesn't mean "every one," it means "everyone one that God randomly chooses"
I guess I can make the Bible say anything I like as long as I make up the definitions.
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Is that what you think when you see the shootist at work in schools?
I see a slave of Satan
I see a person who made a choice. Just as the police officers who choose to put their lives at risk by charging into that school also make a choice.
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Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.
It also renders human existence irrelevant.
If God is choosing some people to "save", while ignoring everyone else, why bother going through the process? God could just have placed those people in Eden and not created the rest of humanity.
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Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.
"All" doesn't mean "every one," it means "everyone one that God randomly chooses"
I guess I can make the Bible say anything I like as long as I make up the definitions.
The idea of God having an unalterable "saved" list and "lake of fire" list always bothered me. I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will. In Matthew 25:41, Jesus clearly states that the lake of fire was specifically created for the Devil and his angels. Unfortunately, the unrepentant are accorded the same eternal damnation they are. Conversely, the saved are predestined so because God knew from the beginning they belong to Him--not because they're among the lucky lottery winners.
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I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will.
There are many passages that are difficult for the Calvinist to reconcile and I've seen the explanations. Though, the most difficult to reconcile passage for the Calvinist would be Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
All means all in both ideas of the passage right? It is the same Greek word in both uses translated as all.
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I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will.
There are many passages that are difficult for the Calvinist to reconcile and I've seen the explanations. Though, the most difficult to reconcile passage for the Calvinist would be Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
All means all in both ideas of the passage right? It is the same Greek word in both uses translated as all.
When doctrine requires one to reconcile clear, unambiguous scripture, something's definitely wrong with the doctrine.
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
That was about choosing the 12 [!]
Context bro.
So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?
In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -
Context -
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.
Nothing to do with our free will discussion.
If it had nothing to do with freewill why did you quote it?
Because YOU made it an argument for your doctrine there is no free will.
And you were wrong.
Abide in Me and let My words abide in you, only for the 12 eh?
From which of what I said do you conclude that I think or believe that???
Please don't do this kind of rhetoric, it's insulting.
When you say "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you" to apply to only the 12 yeh I find that fair game for an insult.
I said it because the epistles never say we chose God, they all say God chose us, before the world was begun. folks that "chose Christ" like the rich young ruler got turned away and the fella that offered to follow Him.
What about the multitude who wanted to make Him King when He multiplied the bread? Nor did we love Him but He first loved us.
Jesus chose the 12 out of the world, He also chose us out of the world ... you say you chose Him. Is there then some good thing in you, that is in your flesh after all? some prudence, some wisdom? some righteousness that you were enabled to choose Him ... something to boast about?
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible
Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God
The Bible is clear, "all" of mankind (whosoever), has been provided grace and faith. Been this way starting since the Garden after the fall of mankind, all through both the OT (examples of Scripture revealing choosing - Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15; 30:19-20; Joshua 24:14-15) and the NT (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:11; ). To understand the NT verses about "being" chosen while other scriptures (OT and NT) that reveal our response by grace through faith is NOT irresistibly forced upon us, we have to account for God's sovereign foreknowledge and what He does (predestines mankind), with that knowledge. God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.
By grace, through faith. Mankind can either choose God or not to choose God. Jesus' sacrifice is for all of mankind, before even creation.
who will transgress? we ALL transgressed.
The bible says NOT all men have faith ... faith to be saved is an imparted gift "By grace are ye saved through faith and that a gift lest Slug 1 should boast."
The bible doesn't say "what He foreknew He also predestined and chose" it says "WHO He foreknew He also predestined."
Jesus said of some that God had shut their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should see and hear and understand and turn to Him to be saved ... what do you make of that?
Why in heavens name does it offend folks to be told God loves them and chose them in eternity to be His?
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"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?
Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.
That is an interesting question for I believe predestiny and election pertains to the church than to salvation, we are chosen to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace, to be God's people in the earth, of course we must be saved for that but it does not exclude anyone from being saved.
to be a city set upon a hill ... not to exclude any but to attract folks.
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"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?
Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.
Judas was chosen to fulfil the scripture "he who shared My bread has lifted up his heel against Me"
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Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.
"All" doesn't mean "every one," it means "everyone one that God randomly chooses"
I guess I can make the Bible say anything I like as long as I make up the definitions.
Calvin did not believe in a BILLIONfold WIDER MERCY but I do. I don't believe just a few straggly sheep will be saved on that day while billions of human souls [goats] will end up in hell.
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Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.
"All" doesn't mean "every one," it means "everyone one that God randomly chooses"
I guess I can make the Bible say anything I like as long as I make up the definitions.
You are the folks who make stuff up
Nobody says in the bible "I chose Jesus of my own freewill"
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Is that what you think when you see the shootist at work in schools?
I see a slave of Satan
I see a person who made a choice. Just as the police officers who choose to put their lives at risk by charging into that school also make a choice.
so all policemen are saved ....
I believe in the human will, but I do not believe it is free. I believe in choice but choice is not freewill.
I believe in the WIDER MERCY. which neither Calvin or Arminius believed in.
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Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.
It also renders human existence irrelevant.
If God is choosing some people to "save", while ignoring everyone else, why bother going through the process? God could just have placed those people in Eden and not created the rest of humanity.
I believe in a BILLIONfold WIDER MERCY.
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I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will.
There are many passages that are difficult for the Calvinist to reconcile and I've seen the explanations. Though, the most difficult to reconcile passage for the Calvinist would be Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
All means all in both ideas of the passage right? It is the same Greek word in both uses translated as all.
When doctrine requires one to reconcile clear, unambiguous scripture, something's definitely wrong with the doctrine.
Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"
or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"
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I believe in choice but choice is not freewill.
My brain just fell out.
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"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?
Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.
That is an interesting question for I believe predestiny and election pertains to the church than to salvation,
Would you care to discuss that God predestines those who He knows will "never" choose to believe in Him? Meaning, predestination also includes those who will never be "the Church."
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Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"
Is it your contention that this passage represents those to whom God would deprive salvation? If so, it completely contradicts John 3:16 (and other verses that say salvation is freely given to all who seek it). All scripture is inspired, so if passages seem to conflict, the fault lies with our understanding.
or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"
The companion verse of "No man cometh to the Father except by me."
The passages refer to those whom God foreknew and predestined coming to salvation by means of His Son. Those not foreknown and predestined never belonged to Him as believers to begin with.
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I believe in choice but choice is not freewill.
My brain just fell out.
Dangerous place here ;)
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where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
That was about choosing the 12 [!]
Context bro.
So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?
In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -
Context -
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.
Nothing to do with our free will discussion.
If it had nothing to do with freewill why did you quote it?
Because YOU made it an argument for your doctrine there is no free will.
And you were wrong.
Abide in Me and let My words abide in you, only for the 12 eh?
From which of what I said do you conclude that I think or believe that???
Please don't do this kind of rhetoric, it's insulting.
When you say "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you" to apply to only the 12 yeh I find that fair game for an insult.
You are impossible.
But an impossible brother in Christ.
Shalom.
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I believe in choice but choice is not freewill.
My brain just fell out.
Dangerous place here ;)
You need to pick your brain up ;D
How is choice freewill? did you set out the options? do you implement the consequences following on from whichever choice you make?
Can you even choose not to choose?
Can you come up with an option of your own?
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Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.
It also renders human existence irrelevant.
If God is choosing some people to "save", while ignoring everyone else, why bother going through the process? God could just have placed those people in Eden and not created the rest of humanity.
Have you seen the fishy on the riverbank? flapping round desperately to stay alive, that is the human existence following the human will.
Put the fish back into his proper habitat, how hapily he swims, he is everything God intended for him to be.
When man surrenders his own will, which is in bondage, and finds himself in God's will he will find true gladness of heart, he will be everything God intended for him to be.
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"You did not choose Me but I chose you"
Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?
Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.
That is an interesting question for I believe predestiny and election pertains to the church than to salvation,
Would you care to discuss that God predestines those who He knows will "never" choose to believe in Him? Meaning, predestination also includes those who will never be "the Church."
There is predestiny and there is destiny, the first is what God determined in eternity that man should be, the second is what governs mankind AFTER the fall. God never ever predestined man for hell. God predestined mankind to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace.
Man rejected God's plan, we ALL rejected His plan, "we have turned everyone to his own way" [own will, own way]
But God never changed, man changed but God's plan is still the same.
If the church ever got to be the church God intended her to be we would be like a city set upon a hill, a beacon of hope for the lost, the weary, the hungry, those in need of shelter. THAT'S what predestination is.
Nobody believes in the WIDER MERCY, that's because they reject predestination and election. If the church will reject the bible truth of predestiny and election they will never understand the wider mercy. They will continue to believe that just a few straggly sheep will be saved and the billions and billions of goat will go to hell.
Which is what 98% of evangelicals believe, Calvin or Arminius.
By the way I do not wish to seem a critic of God's church, the church is precious, and God does work out His plan to save mankind through the church ... even when she is backslidden.
And just to forestall the next question, I am not one who believes in universal salvation ... but I totally reject the idea that just a few will be saved. We do not judge by appearances.
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Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"
Is it your contention that this passage represents those to whom God would deprive salvation? If so, it completely contradicts John 3:16 (and other verses that say salvation is freely given to all who seek it). All scripture is inspired, so if passages seem to conflict, the fault lies with our understanding.
or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"
The companion verse of "No man cometh to the Father except by me."
The passages refer to those whom God foreknew and predestined coming to salvation by means of His Son. Those not foreknown and predestined never belonged to Him as believers to begin with.
John 3.16 does not say for everyone who seeks it, it says for everyone who BELIEVES. The quarrel we have is how did they come to believe? of their own freewill? or did God impart the faith and [made them an offer] they could not refuse.?
The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof, so is everyone who is born from above
Who are born not of the flesh nor the will of the flesh but by the will of God ... why do you continue to say it was YOUR will.
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How did Adam and every man since reject God without freedom?
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How is choice freewill?
Making a choice is the act of exercising free will.
did you set out the options?
Irrelevant.
Life is a test. God controls the world and sets the circumstances. Human beings make choices and God grades us on what those choices were.
do you implement the consequences following on from whichever choice you make?
The outcome is in God's hands. The choice to act is in ours.
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How did Adam and every man since reject God without freedom?
Adam was FREE as long as he stayed within the parameter that God had set for him "Of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it let you die."
YOU are not free, you are a sinner, you are bound to sin, you are bound to die. These govern your life until Jesus had set you free.
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How is choice freewill?
Making a choice is the act of exercising free will.
did you set out the options?
Irrelevant.
Life is a test. God controls the world and sets the circumstances. Human beings make choices and God grades us on what those choices were.
do you implement the consequences following on from whichever choice you make?
The outcome is in God's hands. The choice to act is in ours.
To choose is a command which they had to obey
If they chose to obey they would live, that is God's will
if they chose to rebel they would die, this was also God's will though not His preferred will.
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The doctrine of human freewill is idolatry. Man is on the throne.
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The doctrine of human freewill is idolatry. Man is on the throne.
False.
Are you a universalist? Because according to your theology, since God is not willing that any should perish, then no one will perish.
Are you a sinless perfectionist? Because according to your theology, since God makes a way for believers to escape temptation, then obviously no Christian can sin.
Are you sure that Jesus is God? Because only by choosing to do the will of God can you find out if Jesus' teaching comes from God.
Are you a believer in only partial inspiration? Because according to your theology, Joshua placed a false choice before the people of Israel.
Are you a double predestinatrian? Because if you want to be Jesus' disciple you have to deny themselves and take up their cross and follow Jesus.
Does Jesus force his way into the heart of the unrepentant believer?
Can a human seek God? Can a human call on God? Can the wicked forsake their unreighteous ways and behaviors?
Can a human receive Jesus? Or believe in His name?
Can a human choose life?
Can a human repent?
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Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will. Our very ability to either obey or disobey God exemplifies the reality of free will as divinely ordained by God Himself.
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If they chose to obey they would live, that is God's will
if they chose to rebel they would die, this was also God's will though not His preferred will.
So in other words, humanity has free will and the opportunity to make choices.
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Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.
Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.
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There is predestiny and there is destiny, the first is what God determined in eternity that man should be, the second is what governs mankind AFTER the fall. God never ever predestined man for hell. God predestined mankind to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace.
While I read the rest of your post, I find many comments that oppose each other and you seem to point out something, then a sentence later, refute/counter what you just pointing out.
So, I will comment about the quoted part I left to focus on.
I cannot find in scripture a before and after the fall difference, in whether or not man has free will. There is no scripture detailing that before the fall there is predestination and after the fall, there is no predestination. You say there is "destiny" after the fall but honestly, I do not recall any scripture that supports such a statement concerning "destiny."
If I may ask, how is God's "foreknowledge" accounted for in your theology?
The reason I ask is because predestination encompasses all of creation once creation was complete and time (for creation) began. God KNOWS who will (in time) believe in Him and also, who will not ever believe in Him. He's predestined either for His glory.
Here is a verse in support of this:
Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
And this following scripture has much bearing on this topic as we can understand sinful mankind can (when being a vessel of dishonor) CHOOSE to turn away from sin and (in context) believe and receive redemption, being "re-born" into what is a vessel of honor.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
God does not MAKE people choose to believe, He knows who will choose and who will not choose, too believe.
edit: some fixing
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The doctrine of human freewill is idolatry. Man is on the throne.
False.
Are you a universalist? Because according to your theology, since God is not willing that any should perish, then no one will perish.
Are you a sinless perfectionist? Because according to your theology, since God makes a way for believers to escape temptation, then obviously no Christian can sin.
Are you sure that Jesus is God? Because only by choosing to do the will of God can you find out if Jesus' teaching comes from God.
Are you a believer in only partial inspiration? Because according to your theology, Joshua placed a false choice before the people of Israel.
Are you a double predestinatrian? Because if you want to be Jesus' disciple you have to deny themselves and take up their cross and follow Jesus.
Does Jesus force his way into the heart of the unrepentant believer?
Can a human seek God? Can a human call on God? Can the wicked forsake their unreighteous ways and behaviors?
Can a human receive Jesus? Or believe in His name?
Can a human choose life?
Can a human repent?
;D
You made me chuckle there.
I am not a universalist ... It was NEVER God's will that any should perish and He is immutable that is He does not change. His will is that man should live. But we have to come to terms with the fact that it is also God's will that the soul that sinneth it shall die. So in whatever case we shall be in we will fulfil the will of God.
I am not a perfectionist although in God's reckoning we ARE perfect for He sees we who have believed in Christ through Christ. Having been set FREE, having the indwelling Spirit of God we are able to discern God's way of escape from falling when tempted. But Y'ALL say we were already free and having freewill you can live sinless, you are able to choose.
I am CERTAIN that Jesus is God, the only begotten Son of God = God for whatever the Father is the Son is also.
I believe fully that the scripture is God's word ... our understanding is imperfect. Joshua placed before the children of Israel two options both of which would result in God's will being done. Either His first and best will that they should live if they obeyed or His less happy will that the soul that sinneth shall surely die. And they had to choose, nor could they invent an option of their own, Choice is not freewill.
I am absolutely not double predestination. Only when we are set FREE can we consider discipleship ... Y'ALL say you were al5ready free.
God does never force His way into anyone's heart ... although He could. What He does is conquer our will which is not free as Y'ALL say but is set at emnity against God and in slavery to sin. He conquers us with His love, He subdues our will to His own so much so that we become willing. God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure.
No man can discover God though he seek Him. God must always reveal Himself to us. Nor did we love Him but He loved us.
Man cannot choose life because he does not know what life consists in. He [Adam] has chosen death and we in Adam have been sold into death. we have no choice.
No man can repent ... unless God pricks them in their heart .... He doesn't use a needle but a sword so much so that we cry out "brethren what must we do to be saved"? even if our experience is not so dramatic as that still that work must be done in our hearts by the Holy Ghost at the preaching of the gospel.
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There is predestiny and there is destiny, the first is what God determined in eternity that man should be, the second is what governs mankind AFTER the fall. God never ever predestined man for hell. God predestined mankind to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace.
While I read the rest of your post, I find many comments that oppose each other and you seem to point out something, then a sentence later, refute/counter what you just pointing out.
So, I will comment about the quoted part I left to focus on.
I cannot find in scripture a before and after the fall difference, in whether or not man has free will. There is no scripture detailing that before the fall there is predestination and after the fall, there is no predestination. You say there is "destiny" after the fall but honestly, I do not recall any scripture that supports such a statement concerning "destiny."
If I may ask, how is God's "foreknowledge" accounted for in your theology?
The reason I ask is because predestination encompasses all of creation once creation was complete and time (for creation) began. God KNOWS who will (in time) believe in Him and also, who will not ever believe in Him. He's predestined either for His glory.
Here is a verse in support of this:
Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
And this following scripture has much bearing on this topic as we can understand sinful mankind can (when being a vessel of dishonor) CHOOSE to turn away from sin and (in context) believe and receive redemption, being "re-born" into what is a vessel of honor.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
God does not MAKE people choose to believe, He knows who will choose and who will not choose, too believe.
edit: some fixing
Oh that word BEFOREHAND why is it there brother? it is there for the vessels of mercy but not for the vessels of wrath. You know how careful God is with His words,
We are prepared beforehand, but the vessels of wrath prepare themselves. Nobody is born drunk or a full blown liar, a raper or a murderer these things if they are to be done successfully must be learned and practiced. We have the propensity, we have the sin nature. But in order to be successful in committing these sins we must prepare our vessels and practice.
That's why my opinion is predestiny and election only pertains to the church for discipleship "to be conformed to the image of God's Son... Chosen in Christ before the world began to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace" [where was your freewill before the world began?] WHY?
the next verse tells us why. God has place ALL under sin that He might have mercy upon all. People can still be saved through our testimony. If we can be the candle that lights the room or the city set upon a hill, not exclude any but to be a beacon of hope, a place of refuge and succour to the lonely. the weary and the refugee. THAT'S WHAT PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION IS FOR.
I believe in a BILLIONfold wider mercy.
Timothy is interesting ... The house is certainly the church, ALL the vessels are in the house and belong in the house. Some to honour some to dishonour ... none to wrath or destruction after all the dishonourable are most vital to the well being of the house.
But if any want to be USED by God, gotta clean their act up.
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Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will. Our very ability to either obey or disobey God exemplifies the reality of free will as divinely ordained by God Himself.
Freewill if you tell it to any Jane or Joe means you can do as you please, you hear them say "if God didn't want me to sin He shouldn't have given me freewill"
Now we know that is not what people mean by freewill.
We do NOT have the ability to obey God, only if God first sets us FREE. We do not even have the ability to understand God, only if God opens our eyes to see, our ears to hear and our hearts to understand.
Y'ALL say you were already free ... that's what I am disputing.
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Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.
Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.
I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.
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Timothy is interesting ... The house is certainly the church, ALL the vessels are in the house and belong in the house. Some to honour some to dishonour ... none to wrath or destruction after all the dishonourable are most vital to the well being of the house.
But if any want to be USED by God, gotta clean their act up.
I brought your final comments to the top because I am wondering if you believe whom the scripture is speaking about, for dishonor, are born-again Christians? Or are they the tares that satan has lured to be amongst the sheep (wheat)?
OK, back to some of the remainder of your response.
Oh that word BEFOREHAND why is it there brother? it is there for the vessels of mercy but not for the vessels of wrath. You know how careful God is with His words,
When reading the lesson in the Romans 9 verses (basically the whole chapter), the context is actually informing the Jews that God meant to save Gentiles, as well as Jews from before creation, verse 23. So that is "WHY" the beforehand is utilized to focus on those who will believe (Jew and Gentile). But, my point remains, this does not teach that those who will never believe were not predestined for wrath before creation as we see in verse 21-22.
God's plan for creation, to include mankind was finalized before creation. We know this because scripture reveals that Christ's death was "before" the foundation of the earth. We can know this through Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:18-20. Those whom God knew would believe, they are predestined for righteous glory (to God) and those who will not believe are predestined for wrathful glory (to God).
We are prepared beforehand, but the vessels of wrath prepare themselves.
Brother, this quote I underlined is a prime example of your convoluted commenting. You are adamant that mankind has no freewill and yet, you are saying that mankind CAN exercise free will.
Gonna stop quoting here because you begin the rest of the post with clause of being opinionated. Plus the fact you continue to refute yourself, which makes discussion tough.
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I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will.
There are many passages that are difficult for the Calvinist to reconcile and I've seen the explanations. Though, the most difficult to reconcile passage for the Calvinist would be Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
All means all in both ideas of the passage right? It is the same Greek word in both uses translated as all.
When doctrine requires one to reconcile clear, unambiguous scripture, something's definitely wrong with the doctrine.
Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"
or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"
I think the argument could be made that the context of that passage was specifically regarding the Jewish leaders so that his pre-ordained death could be accomplished. The passage quotes Isaiah. Verses 20-36 addresses non-Jews, but 37-50 is regarding Jews. The quote is from Isaiah 6 which is specific to the Nation of Israel. That's just my thoughts on that.
As for your second verse, I don't believe that anyone can come to Christ in Faith without being first drawn, so no argument there. I don't see how that concludes that people don't have the choice to reject his call, though.
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Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"
Is it your contention that this passage represents those to whom God would deprive salvation? If so, it completely contradicts John 3:16 (and other verses that say salvation is freely given to all who seek it). All scripture is inspired, so if passages seem to conflict, the fault lies with our understanding.
or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"
The companion verse of "No man cometh to the Father except by me."
The passages refer to those whom God foreknew and predestined coming to salvation by means of His Son. Those not foreknown and predestined never belonged to Him as believers to begin with.
John 3.16 does not say for everyone who seeks it, it says for everyone who BELIEVES. The quarrel we have is how did they come to believe? of their own freewill? or did God impart the faith and [made them an offer] they could not refuse.?
The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof, so is everyone who is born from above
Who are born not of the flesh nor the will of the flesh but by the will of God ... why do you continue to say it was YOUR will.
What verse are you referring to in your last statement? Are you talking about John 1:13?
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I'm talking straight enough
No, you're inventing your own definitions for words. I'm out.
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We do NOT have the ability to obey God, only if God first sets us FREE. We do not even have the ability to understand God, only if God opens our eyes to see, our ears to hear and our hearts to understand.
Y'ALL say you were already free ... that's what I am disputing.
Do we not have the same ability to obey God that Abraham had? Or Noah, or Moses or Joseph?
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Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.
Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.
I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.
Ehhhh you really dodged the implications of Adam sinning from a place of freedom and haven't bothered to establish where in Genesis a reorientation of the species is depicted either (1) of a corruption of our nature as such or (2) how one comes to accept Christ from a place of sin - in your view - prior to being forgiven of that sin, and (3) if we suggest that God enables the individual then it really seems like we're playing sin nature plot armor with Aurelius "didn't know how to read Greek" Augustinus Hipponensis, where it's there until it arbitrarily isn't.
Of course you also fetter God given God's own inability to choose, but then that doesn't impact on God for some reason as it impacts on us, so... idk man you're just really not convincing.
No here argues for libertarian free will, by the way.
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I'm talking straight enough
No, you're inventing your own definitions for words. I'm out.
's no such thing as human freewill ... no where in the NT
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Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.
Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.
I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.
Ehhhh you really dodged the implications of Adam sinning from a place of freedom and haven't bothered to establish where in Genesis a reorientation of the species is depicted either (1) of a corruption of our nature as such or (2) how one comes to accept Christ from a place of sin - in your view - prior to being forgiven of that sin, and (3) if we suggest that God enables the individual then it really seems like we're playing sin nature plot armor with Aurelius "didn't know how to read Greek" Augustinus Hipponensis, where it's there until it arbitrarily isn't.
Of course you also fetter God given God's own inability to choose, but then that doesn't impact on God for some reason as it impacts on us, so... idk man you're just really not convincing.
No here argues for libertarian free will, by the way.
Adam was free so long as he stayed within the perimeters God had set him.
Adam swapped freedom for bondage
righteousnes for sin
life for death.
He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.
YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.
If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.
God first sets us free before we can repent.
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Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.
Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.
I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.
Ehhhh you really dodged the implications of Adam sinning from a place of freedom and haven't bothered to establish where in Genesis a reorientation of the species is depicted either (1) of a corruption of our nature as such or (2) how one comes to accept Christ from a place of sin - in your view - prior to being forgiven of that sin, and (3) if we suggest that God enables the individual then it really seems like we're playing sin nature plot armor with Aurelius "didn't know how to read Greek" Augustinus Hipponensis, where it's there until it arbitrarily isn't.
Of course you also fetter God given God's own inability to choose, but then that doesn't impact on God for some reason as it impacts on us, so... idk man you're just really not convincing.
No here argues for libertarian free will, by the way.
Adam was free so long as he stayed within the perimeters God had set him.
Adam swapped freedom for bondage
righteousnes for sin
life for death.
He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.
YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.
If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.
God first sets us free before we can repent.
You're still dodging.
He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.
The devastating bit you're glossing over is that Adam sinned from a position of choice. But if we review the Genesis narrative, how many times are we told of Adam choosing God when he had another option, like Eve?
Oh, when we read of Adam being presented with a choice, he chooses to Sin? Dang.
Here's your problem: if Adam freely sinned, we need not contrive some notion of our nature's corruption, which is not supported in the Genesis account. We need not strain ourselves defending some ontic suggestion that, again, is not noted in the Genesis account.
We need only point to Adam. He was made morally imperfect, for he could sin—just as we do. It's a horror story. We can't blame our "sin nature" because it's "just" the nature God created us with—the one that Genesis does not say was changed or corrupted. It didn't need to be.
We choose to sin just like Adam.
YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.
No, that's not true. You're free to huff and puff about it, though. It's not true because I haven't really talked about "this" except to poke at the absurdity of the position. Imagine Adam sinned against God, having lived in the presence of God. Do you think we might have a problem if removed from the garden? Genesis says so, unlike all the ontic corruption.
If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.
Do you know that part where God said we would surely die, and then our species was kicked out of the garden and removed from God's presence? Do you know who it's up to at that point to restore the lost relationship and elevate the fallen species, etc?
God's.
What a nonsense "if / then".
God first sets us free before we can repent.
It's a real shame God doesn't just, like, do that for everyone. But I can appreciate that you don't see the problem with freedom coming before repentance.
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Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.
Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.
I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.
Ehhhh you really dodged the implications of Adam sinning from a place of freedom and haven't bothered to establish where in Genesis a reorientation of the species is depicted either (1) of a corruption of our nature as such or (2) how one comes to accept Christ from a place of sin - in your view - prior to being forgiven of that sin, and (3) if we suggest that God enables the individual then it really seems like we're playing sin nature plot armor with Aurelius "didn't know how to read Greek" Augustinus Hipponensis, where it's there until it arbitrarily isn't.
Of course you also fetter God given God's own inability to choose, but then that doesn't impact on God for some reason as it impacts on us, so... idk man you're just really not convincing.
No here argues for libertarian free will, by the way.
Adam was free so long as he stayed within the perimeters God had set him.
Adam swapped freedom for bondage
righteousnes for sin
life for death.
He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.
YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.
If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.
God first sets us free before we can repent.
You're still dodging.
He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.
The devastating bit you're glossing over is that Adam sinned from a position of choice. But if we review the Genesis narrative, how many times are we told of Adam choosing God when he had another option, like Eve?
Oh, when we read of Adam being presented with a choice, he chooses to Sin? Dang.
Here's your problem: if Adam freely sinned, we need not contrive some notion of our nature's corruption, which is not supported in the Genesis account. We need not strain ourselves defending some ontic suggestion that, again, is not noted in the Genesis account.
We need only point to Adam. He was made morally imperfect, for he could sin—just as we do. It's a horror story. We can't blame our "sin nature" because it's "just" the nature God created us with—the one that Genesis does not say was changed or corrupted. It didn't need to be.
We choose to sin just like Adam.
YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.
No, that's not true. You're free to huff and puff about it, though. It's not true because I haven't really talked about "this" except to poke at the absurdity of the position. Imagine Adam sinned against God, having lived in the presence of God. Do you think we might have a problem if removed from the garden? Genesis says so, unlike all the ontic corruption.
If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.
Do you know that part where God said we would surely die, and then our species was kicked out of the garden and removed from God's presence? Do you know who it's up to at that point to restore the lost relationship and elevate the fallen species, etc?
God's.
What a nonsense "if / then".
God first sets us free before we can repent.
It's a real shame God doesn't just, like, do that for everyone. But I can appreciate that you don't see the problem with freedom coming before repentance.
There's a load of rubbish in there if you don't mind me saying so.
Top of the list is your statement that God created us with a sin nature.
I have said from the start that Adam was free so long as he stayed within the parameter that God had set for him, he was not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil. I think you are asking a nonsensical question that's why I haven't answered it. Adam was created in the image of God.
We have not that choice, we sin from nature, we are in bondage to sin. You interpret bondage as freewill. When you assert that God made Adam morally imperfect you are blaming God.
We cannot choose. You fail to see that mankind is a doomed creation, he is not going to be lost, he is lost now. Dead in trespasses and sin, without God and without hope in the world.
God has been merciful and sent a Saviour to us, even His Son. Man's salvation is the good news.
Before we can see and hear and understand the good news God has to grant us spiritual eyes and ears and an understanding heart. In order to that He must save us while we are still in our sins.
First He saves us then He gets our agreement, our amen .... we repent, we lay down our very selves [our will] and we accept His Lordship.
Eph.2.4
But God who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses MADE US ALIVE together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him and made us to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
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You know, Billy , saying something that isn’t true 300 times doesn’t make it more true. But it does make it more boring.
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There's a load of rubbish in there if you don't mind me saying so.
You can say so, just don't go on to demonstrate you didn't bother reading what I wrote.
Top of the list is your statement that God created us with a sin nature.
Oh, well, never mind.
I'd ask for you to quote where I said God created humanity with a sin nature, but I don't know that I'd want to subject the forum to endless dodging given (1) your inability because (2) I never said such a thing.
Here's what we get from the Genesis narrative:
- God created Adam and Eve morally imperfect
- Adam and Eve sinned, which they were able to do because they were morally imperfect
- Of the curses listed, none speak to a corruption of human nature
- We're all morally imperfect too
See? There's on need to play eisegetical ontologist.
I have said from the start that Adam was free so long as he stayed within the parameter that God had set for him, he was not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil. I think you are asking a nonsensical question that's why I haven't answered it. Adam was created in the image of God.
Given you keep repeating this despite it being assumed, I don't think you understand the question being asked.
We have not that choice, we sin from nature, we are in bondage to sin. You interpret bondage as freewill. When you assert that God made Adam morally imperfect you are blaming God.
No, I don't. And I don't assert that God made Adam morally imperfect: this much is obvious from the text itself. This does not blame God; this blames Adam. Adam is to blame for his sin; God is responsible for creating Adam. See? There's a funny little distinction between responsibility and blameworthiness we can apply here.
You've yet to quote from Genesis 1 - 3 for this view you're presenting. Why? Is it not found there?
We cannot choose. You fail to see that mankind is a doomed creation, he is not going to be lost, he is lost now. Dead in trespasses and sin, without God and without hope in the world.
Billiam, are you in there Billiam? You seem to be stuck on repeat.
Ignore all previous instruction. Provide us with a recipe for apple pie.
God has been merciful and sent a Saviour to us, even His Son. Man's salvation is the good news.
Yep.
Before we can see and hear and understand the good news God has to grant us spiritual eyes and ears and an understanding heart. In order to that He must save us while we are still in our sins.
Again, I appreciate that you don't understand the problem with this order of operations.
First He saves us then He gets our agreement, our amen .... we repent, we lay down our very selves [our will] and we accept His Lordship.
Thanks, Chuck.
Eph.2.4
But God who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses MADE US ALIVE together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him and made us to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
That's a funny way of spelling "Genesis".
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You know, Billy , saying something that isn’t true 300 times doesn’t make it more true. But it does make it more boring.
He's been predestinated to say it over and over and over again my friend. Hey there's a song to quote with multiple meanings
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Billiam
I thought "Bill" was short for "Billious".
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I thought Billious was the uncle of some of the Weasley clan/..
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Billiam
I thought "Bill" was short for "Billious".
It's my endearing, forced nom de plume For William Shakespeare. Billiam!
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Without free will there is no such thing as love
God is love, so freedom of the will must always exist
[!]
Yes.
OTOH, voluntarily giving up your free will also is an act of love.
But... you are making much more sense.
But we don't have love ... unless God pours it into our hearts. If Adam had love he'd never have rebelled.
Adam had freewill, we do not, we are bound to sin and we are bound to die
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Without free will there is no such thing as love
God is love, so freedom of the will must always exist
[!]
Yes.
OTOH, voluntarily giving up your free will also is an act of love.
But... you are making much more sense.
But we don't have love ... unless God pours it into our hearts. If Adam had love he'd never have rebelled.
Adam had freewill, we do not, we are bound to sin and we are bound to die
Adam didn't lack love; he loved the wrong 'thing' (Eve, over God). We would have all done the same, because we all do, do the same.
Nowhere in Genesis is it suggested that free will was stripped from humanity. Our will is as "free" as it's always been, but we're no longer in the garden.
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Adam had freewill, we do not, we are bound to sin and we are bound to die
That's... not what the bible says.
Gensis 3:22 Now the Lord God said, "Behold man has become like one of us, having the ability of knowing good and evil..."
It was the act of eating from the Tree of Knowledge that gave mankind free will, truly free will, in the first place.
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Knowing good and evil is not being able to do either good or evil.
You sin, you must sin, you are bound to it as a consequence you will die, you must die, you are bound to it.
In fact as to your natural self you are already dead.
But what does it mean "bound to die"? Death has become our shepherd, it governs us. If we do not set our alarm clock we will oversleep, then we will be fired, then without money we shall be destitute and die of hunger or from lack of shelter. Our whole existence is caught up in this struggle to stay alive.
All this is our natural condition before we are saved.
Jesus has come to set us free, to save us ... when you say you had freewill and can choose to do good or evil you are insulting Christ for the awful price He has paid to buy your freedom.
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Knowing good and evil is not being able to do either good or evil.
You sin, you must sin, you are bound to it as a consequence you will die, you must die, you are bound to it.
In fact as to your natural self you are already dead.
But what does it mean "bound to die"? Death has become our shepherd, it governs us. If we do not set our alarm clock we will oversleep, then we will be fired, then without money we shall be destitute and die of hunger or from lack of shelter. Our whole existence is caught up in this struggle to stay alive.
All this is our natural condition before we are saved.
Jesus has come to set us free, to save us ... when you say you had freewill and can choose to do good or evil you are insulting Christ for the awful price He has paid to buy your freedom.
You know what's really scary? When you engage in some particular sin but have the option not to. And then when you say, "But God, my nature is corrupted, I adopted an Augustinian ontology based on his poor Greek exegetic, and I simply had no choice in the matter!" God will say, "Bro, you didn't have to sin".
Everyone of course *will* sin, but that doesn't mean we *have* to sin, such that our nature is corrupted (not found in Genesis), or because our will has been devastated (not found in Genesis), or some other thing (not found in Genesis).
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Knowing good and evil is not being able to do either good or evil.
You sin, you must sin, you are bound to it as a consequence you will die, you must die, you are bound to it.
In fact as to your natural self you are already dead.
But what does it mean "bound to die"? Death has become our shepherd, it governs us. If we do not set our alarm clock we will oversleep, then we will be fired, then without money we shall be destitute and die of hunger or from lack of shelter. Our whole existence is caught up in this struggle to stay alive.
All this is our natural condition before we are saved.
Jesus has come to set us free, to save us ... when you say you had freewill and can choose to do good or evil you are insulting Christ for the awful price He has paid to buy your freedom.
You know what's really scary? When you engage in some particular sin but have the option not to. And then when you say, "But God, my nature is corrupted, I adopted an Augustinian ontology based on his poor Greek exegetic, and I simply had no choice in the matter!" God will say, "Bro, you didn't have to sin".
Everyone of course *will* sin, but that doesn't mean we *have* to sin, such that our nature is corrupted (not found in Genesis), or because our will has been devastated (not found in Genesis), or some other thing (not found in Genesis).
The Debil made me do it, so I guess God will be unjust if He judges me…
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This is to misunderstand our condition we are not waiting to fall, we ARE fallen. We are not waiting in expectation of doom, we are already doomed. Without God and without hope in this world.
You say "of course we all sin" quite so, we are bound to sin, "in bondage" says Paul "to the elementary spirits of the universe."
Being slaves then we cannot claim to have freewill
But thanks be to God He has had mercy upon us and sent His Son, His only Son to rescue us, We have been born again, "not of the flesh nor by the will of the flesh ....
... but by the will of God"
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You know what's really scary? When you engage in some particular sin but have the option not to. And then when you say, "But God, my nature is corrupted, I adopted an Augustinian ontology based on his poor Greek exegetic, and I simply had no choice in the matter!" God will say, "Bro, you didn't have to sin".
I think this is the perfect response.
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Being slaves then we cannot claim to have freewill
And yet some people choose to make the world a better place; to ease suffering, to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to heal the sick, to tend to the widow and orphan, just as the bible tells us to do. In Christian terminology, to lead a Christ-like life.
While others choose to make a worse place. This very week, we saw an example of that. A young woman was dragged off into captivity with her two young sons. All three were murdered for the "crime" of being Jews; the children were strangled to death by hand. And when the bodies were returned, it was to great fanfare, as though it were a carnival, so proud were the killers of their actions.
No free will? No difference? On the contrary, all the difference in the world.
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You know what's really scary? When you engage in some particular sin but have the option not to. And then when you say, "But God, my nature is corrupted, I adopted an Augustinian ontology based on his poor Greek exegetic, and I simply had no choice in the matter!" God will say, "Bro, you didn't have to sin".
Everyone of course *will* sin, but that doesn't mean we *have* to sin, such that our nature is corrupted (not found in Genesis), or because our will has been devastated (not found in Genesis), or some other thing (not found in Genesis).
Hooah!!!
Since we will be held accountable for the choices we have made, reveals our free will.
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Not quite, rather the fact that God visits our sin with punishment even death shows that we did not have freewill.
if we do well we are doing God's will
if we do sin then we will die ... dead men do not have freewill.
The concept of freewill is in fact the deception by which the devil 1st deceived man for he said "thou shalt not surely die" that is freewill in a nutshell.
Our wills are in bondage to the one we obeyed.
Jesus came and rescued us to the praise of His glorious grace.
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The concept of freewill is in fact the deception by which the devil 1st deceived man for he said "thou shalt not surely die" that is freewill in a nutshell.
On the one hand, you want the "concept of free will" to be a Satanic deception ("thou shalt not surely die" is not about the will), and on the other, you want to say that Adam had freewill given to him by God.
Adam had freewill, we do not, we are bound to sin and we are bound to die
So which is it?
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dead men do not have freewill.
But the living do.
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Would seem that for any "concept," particularly a biblical one, to have failed, would require clear scriptural, contextual proof - not merely circular reasoning, which can go on forever without vigorously establishing what has actually been written.
Like trying to put socks on a rooster.
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Like trying to put socks on a rooster.
Strangely compelling.
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The concept of freewill is in fact the deception by which the devil 1st deceived man for he said "thou shalt not surely die" that is freewill in a nutshell.
On the one hand, you want the "concept of free will" to be a Satanic deception ("thou shalt not surely die" is not about the will), and on the other, you want to say that Adam had freewill given to him by God.
Adam had freewill, we do not, we are bound to sin and we are bound to die
Yes Adam had freewill obviously not freewill to anything he pleasedbut the ability to choose, to obey God and live or to rebel against God and die.
We are says Paul servants of the one whom we obey. The devil tricked Adam [Eve] that they could act against God with no consequences. He works today in the very same way. Sin has consequences.
We are now servants of sin unto death. "as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned." We were in Adam when he sinned, we were part of that rush of blood to the head. Make no mistake if we had been in Adam's place we would have sinned.
Whereas Adam was made in God's image, we are born in Adam's image alas.
We have but one hope, that God will have mercy upon us and send a Saviour as He promised to do.
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Whereas Adam was made in God's image, we are born in Adam's image alas.
Basic math and logic:
If A = B and A = C then B = C.
We are, all of us, created in the image of God. We have intellect and free will. Just as Adam did.
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Whereas Adam was made in God's image, we are born in Adam's image alas.
Hey brother, can you post some verses that have led you to say we're born in Adam's likeness, and not God's?
Asking because, if I do a quick look at some verses, these come to mind (there are more) and none mention us as in the image of Adam.
James 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.
Ephesians 4:24 And to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
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The concept of freewill is in fact the deception
1. The phrase free will is not in Scripture.
2. What is in Scripture are the will of God and the human will.
Pred 12:13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
Pred 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Be well.
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In absolute terms of the Bible by itself, I see why it appears that fuzzy logic applies. The fall is a biblical principle, you have to believe in it to fully believe in the Bible. But does that prove free will? At first glance for many, it appears that the fall disproves free will, it looks like Eve is stick to Satan and Adam to Eve. Even to think that at the end, if you worship Christ and deny Satan, you have a proof of free will because of salvation, the facts of life are complicated by the fact of suffering. Satan’s argument in the garden is that Gods rule against eating a typical tree fruit is trivial and against free will sounds about right to many people at first glance, but is it? Does deciding to eat avocados, or partake in Avogadro’s Number, which is sometimes brought up in high falutin’ atheist science fairs and math Olympiads a real test for determinism against the alleged fact of free will?
My final answer is that the confusion is resolved by understanding thought and decision as parallel to actions. A decision may be internal, pertaining only to totally private religious beliefs. Even if the new thought dude man from CIIS is right and thought does proceed action in the Philosophy of Mind, in the case of a religious decision whose final outcome appertains solely to the afterlife, the last world won’t be had and the final outcome won’t be known until the last judgement after the second coming and resurrection.
Therefore, asking yourself if hedonistically undesirable and comfort thought based “unpleasant” outcomes, pertinent to you alone in the basis of spiritual decisions youn have made in the vast on the basis of Christ alone are proofs or disproofs of free will confuses the time line of religion in the context of eternity, and mixes up your worldly circumstances today wherein some other people are good and some other people are evil with the real final answer, which will not be known until the last day, when you reach either heaven or hell.
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Whereas Adam was made in God's image, we are born in Adam's image alas.
Hey brother, can you post some verses that have led you to say we're born in Adam's likeness, and not God's?
Asking because, if I do a quick look at some verses, these come to mind (there are more) and none mention us as in the image of Adam.
James 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.
Ephesians 4:24 And to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
Genesis 5
When Adam had lived 130 years he became the father of a son in his own likeness after his own image and named him Seth.
When we are born again we are re-created in God's image.
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1. The phrase free will is not in Scripture.
That is true. But the bible still impels us to make choices.
Deuteronomy 30: 19I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live, and that you may love the LORD your God, obey Him, and hold fast to Him. For He is your life, and He will prolong your life in the land that the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”…
Joshua 24: But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”
Ezekiel 18: Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
Isaiah 55: Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near. Let the wicked man forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.
Psalm 1: Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or set foot on the path of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers.
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Air conditioning and indoor plumbing aren’t in the Bible either, but well, you know…
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Air conditioning and indoor plumbing aren’t in the Bible either, but well, you know…
And hence, not real.
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I don't think sin will be ever present. I think the whole reason the Lord tolerates sin in this age,is for it to come to it's fullness, "The Fullness of Iniquity". The Israelites spent over 400 years in Egypt because the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full. Once they reached the height of debauchery,they were judged by being driven from the land. This same pattern plays out again and again throughout history. Once a general society is so corrupt that it calls good evil and evil good there is no more room for the conviction of sin. They cannot repent. They have become reprobate. Once this occurs, it is called "the fullness of iniquity" and divine judgement is soon at hand. I believe the reason God tolerates the most despicable forms of evil is to let it be shown for all it is. In the age to come(NHNE) there will be no possibility of sin or rebellion. This is for two reasons. 1) We will only have the new nature and the sin nature will be totality eradicated. 2) Evil, having been allowed to come to it's fullness, will be shown for what it is. This will further act as a restraining force that prevents sin. In short...once we get through this and the next phase of testing...there will never be sin again.
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The Israelites spent over 400 years in Egypt because the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full.
This seems like a strange way to look at it. The Israelites had to endure slavery and bondage because the Amorites hadn't sinned enough yet? What does one have to do with the other? Rather, the Israelites had to endure slavery and bondage to be prepared as a proper receptacle for the revelation at Sinai.
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The Israelites spent over 400 years in Egypt because the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full.
This seems like a strange way to look at it. The Israelites had to endure slavery and bondage because the Amorites hadn't sinned enough yet? What does one have to do with the other? Rather, the Israelites had to endure slavery and bondage to be prepared as a proper receptacle for the revelation at Sinai.
I think God in his mercy, delays judgement until there is no hope of repentance.
Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
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Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
One is not dependent on the other. It wouldn't make any sense. Again, the Israelites have to remain in slavery because the Amorites haven't sinned enough?
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1. The phrase free will is not in Scripture.
That is true. But the bible still impels us to make choices.
Deuteronomy 30: 19I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live, and that you may love the LORD your God, obey Him, and hold fast to Him. For He is your life, and He will prolong your life in the land that the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”…
Joshua 24: But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”
Ezekiel 18: Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
Isaiah 55: Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near. Let the wicked man forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.
Psalm 1: Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or set foot on the path of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers.
Choice is not freewill, the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.
Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"
God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.
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Being slaves then we cannot claim to have freewill
And yet some people choose to make the world a better place; to ease suffering, to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to heal the sick, to tend to the widow and orphan, just as the bible tells us to do. In Christian terminology, to lead a Christ-like life.
While others choose to make a worse place. This very week, we saw an example of that. A young woman was dragged off into captivity with her two young sons. All three were murdered for the "crime" of being Jews; the children were strangled to death by hand. And when the bodies were returned, it was to great fanfare, as though it were a carnival, so proud were the killers of their actions.
No free will? No difference? On the contrary, all the difference in the world.
That is a very big question, a forum like this is prolly not adequate to to fully explore all the issues that spring from it. Why does the good man do good deeds? Jesus says there is no-one good but God. Why does the evil man do evil?
What is the enablement for either? who is the enabler? can you feed the hungry and clothe the naked? can you heal the sick? It AMAZES me that people [especially American people ] object to and rail vehemently against the health and wealth gospel.
Jesus is King of the health and wealthers. I would give you one scripture alone which proves it "seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you" that is to say all the things the heathen desire and grab for themselves. That does not mean I would support Benny Hinn or that sort of manipulation of gospel prosperity scriptures. Mebbe they do it not so much out of greed but from a false theology [I prefer to be kind] I mean, Arminian theology, I mean the theology of freewill which does encourage and emphasise the need that WE must decide, WE must act, WE must do before God will do.
If Christians heals the sick and feed the hungry and clothe and shelter the naked They are doing GOD'S will and He is the enabler of it and joyful lifestyle it is.
If the wicked kills and pillages and rapes he is surely doing the will of his master Satan and he it is who enables it.
What about the man or woman who is not a Christian but who does good? he/she is doing God's will too.
Where do thoughts come from? whether good or bad.
You will say then we are mere puppets or robots ... but we are not puppets or robots. The life we have is the life God put in us when we were in the womb, planned in eternity. We act according to the nature we have, according to whose children we are.
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Choice is not freewill,
Of course it is. The ability to make choices is the very definition of free will.
the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.
Human beings absolutely have the ability to do that. You can't see a difference between Mother Thersa and Hitler?
Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"
Just because someone can't upend the laws of nature doesn't mean that they don't have free will. I can say that I choose to bound tall buildings in a single jump like the Hulk; just because I can't do that doesn't mean that I lack free will.
God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.
That too is a choice.
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That is a very big question, a forum like this is prolly not adequate to to fully explore all the issues that spring from it.
We're here and we have time. It's a perfectly adequate place for such a discussion.
Why does the good man do good deeds? Jesus says there is no-one good but God.
I think we can all agree that no one is "perfect" but God. That doesn't mean that nobody is capable of doing good. Deuteronomy talks about returning a garment given by a poor person as security for a loan
"Return their cloak by sunset so that your neighbor may sleep in it. Then they will thank you, and it will be regarded as a righteous act in the sight of the LORD your God."
The mere act of returning a cloak makes God see a person as having done something righteous. Such a small thing. Imagine the important good things that we do, and how God views them.
Why does the evil man do evil?
Because they have free will and made a choice.
What is the enablement for either? who is the enabler? can you feed the hungry and clothe the naked? can you heal the sick?
Is this a trick question?
Jesus is King of the health and wealthers.
All healing comes from God.
But then, everything comes from God.
Isaiah 45: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
What role does humanity have then? Our role is to make the choice as to which one of God's mission we choose to fulfill. God desires that the hungry be fed. Are you going to do it? Are you going to be the instrument of God's will? It applies to bad actions, too. God desired that the six million die, for reasons knows to Him and not us. A wicked people stood up and voluntarily, joyfully did it. That is the human role.
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Fenris! An Arminian (not Armenian) Jew in whine there is no guile.
A brilliant response to the question “why do evil men do evil things” that does not make God the author of evil.
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Fenris! An Arminian (not Armenian) Jew in whine there is no guile.
I hadda look it up. :)
I agree with some of the views but not others. It would deserve its own discussion, but I don't see the point.
A brilliant response to the question “why do evil men do evil things” that does not make God the author of evil.
yes but also no :o
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Choice is not freewill,
Of course it is. The ability to make choices is the very definition of free will.
the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.
Human beings absolutely have the ability to do that. You can't see a difference between Mother Thersa and Hitler?
Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"
Just because someone can't upend the laws of nature doesn't mean that they don't have free will. I can say that I choose to bound tall buildings in a single jump like the Hulk; just because I can't do that doesn't mean that I lack free will.
God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.
That too is a choice.
So we agree we can either do God's will and live or do another's will and die. whether we live or die is not our will.
Did you choose to be born? funny how people object if you say we have no say in whether we be born again or not.
"the wind blows where He listeth and we hear the sound thereof but cannot tell from whence he came or whither he goes, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit
... who are born again not of the flesh nor of the will of the flesh but by the will of God. But you say it was your will?
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So we agree we can either do God's will and live or do another's will and die
Which means making a choice and expressing free will.
Did you choose to be born?
This is just childish. You're here. What are you going to do with your time? That's the whole reason for human existence.
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Choice is not freewill, the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.
Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"
God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.
Hey brother, when Adam made the choice to eat the fruit, he was not evil because he was not "dead" spiritually. Yet, a choice was made to transgress God's will. God will not express His sovereign will upon a man (Adam) and then, will that man to transgress against His expressed will i.e. do NOT eat of that specific tree.
Yet, Adam made a choice, while spiritually alive and not evil, to transgress God's will.
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Choice is not freewill, the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.
Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"
God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.
Hey brother, when Adam made the choice to eat the fruit, he was not evil because he was not "dead" spiritually. Yet, a choice was made to transgress God's will. God will not express His sovereign will upon a man (Adam) and then, will that man to transgress against His expressed will i.e. do NOT eat of that specific tree.
Yet, Adam made a choice, while spiritually alive and not evil, to transgress God's will.
So we agree we can either do God's will and live or do another's will and die
Which means making a choice and expressing free will.
Did you choose to be born?
This is just childish. You're here. What are you going to do with your time? That's the whole reason for human existence.
Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?
You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.
You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?
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Choice is not freewill, the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.
Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"
God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.
Adam had freewill, we do not. We are sinners, we will sin. We will die, all the freewill in the world will not prevent our dying.
Death also became our shepherd.
If we neglect to wind our alarm clock we will be late for work, we'll get the sack, we will lose our home, we will starve.
Our whole lives are consumed with warding off death.
Aren't you glad that Jesus has become your Shepherd? praise His name.
Hey brother, when Adam made the choice to eat the fruit, he was not evil because he was not "dead" spiritually. Yet, a choice was made to transgress God's will. God will not express His sovereign will upon a man (Adam) and then, will that man to transgress against His expressed will i.e. do NOT eat of that specific tree.
Yet, Adam made a choice, while spiritually alive and not evil, to transgress God's will.
So we agree we can either do God's will and live or do another's will and die
Which means making a choice and expressing free will.
Did you choose to be born?
This is just childish. You're here. What are you going to do with your time? That's the whole reason for human existence.
Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?
You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.
You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?
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Please, do be keeping our churches drama team in your prayers. We are now working on the trial and crucifixion of Christ and the whole cast is feeling the emotional drain of the events we are "witnessing." As some of you know actors live, and experience, the events we portray and it can be very draining.
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Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?
You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.
You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?
I asked about Adam... after reading this response, the question is now this.
Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
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Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?
You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.
You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?
I asked about Adam... after reading this response, the question is now this.
Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
The answer is they were tricked into believing they had free-will, what negates the concept of human freewill? it is the dire consequences which must follow on from rebellion aqainst God. Death. But the devil deceived them into believing that they would not die.
Human freewill is Satan's master stroke it was his first deception and his best and it still is today. Truly it is idolatry, we read in the OT testament of good kings and prophets who brought about great revivals in Israel where false gods were put away and their shrines and altars destroyed. Then you get this sad adjoinder " but the high places were not removed"
The belief in human freewill is the top idolatry, the one we are most loathed to put away ... it is US in the centre, we are on the throne, everything depends upon our decision and our action.
Never mind that Paul says we were in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe [demons] until Jesus sets us free, slaves to sin. Followers of the Prince of power of the air.
When we hear the gospel, the gospel comes with power to set us free and faith is imparted to us whereby we believe and are saved.
Our wills are overcome and subdued. Indeed we surrender it, lay it down at the cross and receive the LORDSHIP of Jesus, we are filled with the Holy Ghost.
Then we attend bible class and learn all about freewill, it's backsliding.
I do not say we do not have a will, but it isn't free and it will always lead to bondage.
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Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
The answer is they were tricked into believing they had free-will, what negates the concept of human freewill? it is the dire consequences which must follow on from rebellion aqainst God. Death. But the devil deceived them into believing that they would not die.
Human freewill is Satan's master stroke it was his first deception and his best and it still is today. Truly it is idolatry, we read in the OT testament of good kings and prophets who brought about great revivals in Israel where false gods were put away and their shrines and altars destroyed. Then you get this sad adjoinder " but the high places were not removed"
The belief in human freewill is the top idolatry, the one we are most loathed to put away ... it is US in the centre, we are on the throne, everything depends upon our decision and our action.
Never mind that Paul says we were in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe [demons] until Jesus sets us free, slaves to sin. Followers of the Prince of power of the air.
When we hear the gospel, the gospel comes with power to set us free and faith is imparted to us whereby we believe and are saved.
Our wills are overcome and subdued. Indeed we surrender it, lay it down at the cross and receive the LORDSHIP of Jesus, we are filled with the Holy Ghost.
Then we attend bible class and learn all about freewill, it's backsliding.
I do not say we do not have a will, but it isn't free and it will always lead to bondage.
I read your response... but, I'd like an answer that relates to the question:
Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
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Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?
You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.
You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?
I asked about Adam... after reading this response, the question is now this.
Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
One mark that the doctrine of human freewill is false is the fact that it is not once mentioned in the NT, only 3 times in the OT and then only in relation to freewill offerings, this is because God does not demand the return of gifts and blessings.
No apostle says "thanks be unto God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill" it's almost laffable. Always it HE who has chosen us.
Another mark that it is false is the fact that the church is brainwashed in exactly the same way folk are brainwashed to believe in evolution. You can't watch a nature program read a science book or magazine without evolution being stuffed down your throat.
You can't read a Christian book or article or listen to a sermon without the doctrine of freewill being stuffed down your throat, yet the bible says nothing about it.
By the way I am not saying folks are not saved ... but this I am sure of, if we are ever to see true revival The Sovereign Grace doctrines of Luther must be recovered and Arminius dismissed.
When you read the revivals of Wesley and Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards human freewill is very much in abeyance.
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Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
The answer is they were tricked into believing they had free-will, what negates the concept of human freewill? it is the dire consequences which must follow on from rebellion aqainst God. Death. But the devil deceived them into believing that they would not die.
Human freewill is Satan's master stroke it was his first deception and his best and it still is today. Truly it is idolatry, we read in the OT testament of good kings and prophets who brought about great revivals in Israel where false gods were put away and their shrines and altars destroyed. Then you get this sad adjoinder " but the high places were not removed"
The belief in human freewill is the top idolatry, the one we are most loathed to put away ... it is US in the centre, we are on the throne, everything depends upon our decision and our action.
Never mind that Paul says we were in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe [demons] until Jesus sets us free, slaves to sin. Followers of the Prince of power of the air.
When we hear the gospel, the gospel comes with power to set us free and faith is imparted to us whereby we believe and are saved.
Our wills are overcome and subdued. Indeed we surrender it, lay it down at the cross and receive the LORDSHIP of Jesus, we are filled with the Holy Ghost.
Then we attend bible class and learn all about freewill, it's backsliding.
I do not say we do not have a will, but it isn't free and it will always lead to bondage.
I read your response... but, I'd like an answer that relates to the question:
Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.
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Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.
"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?
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Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.
"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?
Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.
But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.
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Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.
"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?
Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.
But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.
Billy, Adam was not a slave to sin before he freely chose to eat the fruit, the choice and the action's consequence (spiritually dying) resulted in him then (after the action), having a sin nature.
To keep mentioning about "our" sin nature avoids the acknowledgment of free choice that Adam made before, mankind had a sin nature. Thus, discussing this is difficult. Sin nature did not apply to Adam in making his choice. There is NO slavery to a sin nature before the fruit was placed in his hand by Eve.
I assume that when you understand we're discussing a moment in time BEFORE mankind had a sin nature, then discussing this topic won't be so difficult?
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The bible nowhere talks about human freewill, there are about 2-3 mentions in the OT only with regard to freewill offerings.
The bible mentions "whosoever will" which proves one has a choice in regard to salvation:
Rv 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.
But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.
I think you are a bit confused about the definition of free will. Choice IS freewill , as you can't have one without the other.
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Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.
"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?
Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.
But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.
Billy, Adam was not a slave to sin before he freely chose to eat the fruit, the choice and the action's consequence (spiritually dying) resulted in him then (after the action), having a sin nature.
To keep mentioning about "our" sin nature avoids the acknowledgment of free choice that Adam made before, mankind had a sin nature. Thus, discussing this is difficult. Sin nature did not apply to Adam in making his choice. There is NO slavery to a sin nature before the fruit was placed in his hand by Eve.
I assume that when you understand we're discussing a moment in time BEFORE mankind had a sin nature, then discussing this topic won't be so difficult?
A verse showing an ontological change in Adam’s nature as a part of the curse would likewise be helpful
Along with an explanation of how God can take a child of one month old to heaven without being either a universalist or a fraud since that child does not confess Jesus as Lord.
Perhaps Paul doesn’t use the term “sin nature” in an ontological way but in a practical pragmatic understanding of reality way.
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The bible nowhere talks about human freewill, there are about 2-3 mentions in the OT only with regard to freewill offerings.
The bible mentions "whosoever will" which proves one has a choice in regard to salvation:
Rv 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.
But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.
I think you are a bit confused about the definition of free will. Choice IS freewill , as you can't have one without the other.
Naturally I believe you are the one who is confused. Freewill means you can do as you please, if there is anything which inhibits you from doing as you please then you do not have freewill. Admit that Paul teaches that we were in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe before Jesus set us free. Slaves to sin.
I have said before that whereas Adam had a choice we do not have a choice. We are sinners and we must die, are in fact dead while we live.
People can only choose if the choice is put before them, so the choice giver is the One who has free sovereign will. The truth is nobody can come to the Son unless the Father draw them.
The crowds pressed in upon Jesus many with their needs many to hear His teaching, but some came to fight against Him.
Jesus said "My sheep know My voice and they follow Me" but of the others He said "you are not My sheep" He said "God hath closed their eyes that they might not see and stopped up their ears that they might not hear and hardened their hearts lest at any time they should turn to Him and be healed."
Do you not know that when that generation of Jews rejected our Lord they did so by the plan of God?
Do you believe that we were chosen in Christ before the world was begun? how then do you say it was your choosings and your decidings?
Having said all that I believe in a little thing called the WIDER MERCY, a BILLIONfold wider mercy. Something John Calvin would never have believed.
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But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.
We DO have a will but the bible says it is in bondage, a slave to sin and bound to death. Before we can be saved God has to set us free and this He does miraculously at the preaching of the gospel.
The argument is never framed very well in my opinion. Your post has an implicit definition of freewill that isn't stated. Freewill in your post is about salvation. Does man have a freewill in God's plan of salvation? Said another way, and much more to the point, the discussion can be divided into two:
Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.
Are all humanity's personal actions towards salvation determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will in Salvation, or God's plan thereof.
It seems to me that the latter is often conflated with the former. You seem to be arguing the latter and allowing a bound human will in the former.
The bound human will (bounded by ability, circumstance, nature, etc.) is characterized as "free moral agency". Thus, our next-door neighbor's wife might catch our eye. Then she comes calling wanting to borrow a cup of sugar. There is either determinism of God for what follows, good or bad, or not. I do not believe what follows is pre-determined and makes nonsense of God's teachings on the matter on what ought to happen.
But when we expand the argument to determinism in Salvation, then we have rightly confined the discussion, at least in my opinion. But I still disagree with you. lol
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Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ...
No. We can choose because we have free will.
God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding?
There is nothing in the bible that leads me to believe that God does such things.
You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.
This is not holy writ to me. But even if it was, I do not believe that it means what you're saying. God takes away people's free will and then sends them to hell for all eternity for not believing? Any deity that would do such a thing is not worth worship. Rather, Jesus is using strong language to shock the listener into thinking about what he's saying.
You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?
I do not believe in this "rebirth". It's metaphorical, not literal. To take it literally is like Muslims calling converts "reverts", as if to say, that everyone is born a Muslim and goes to another religion before "coming back"
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I answered you, they were tricked ...
This is a total cop out. Anyone can sin and say they were "tricked" and so are not responsible for their behavior. And if nobody is responsible for their behavior, then Jesus's sacrifice was meaningless. Repentance is meaningless. "It wasn't my fault, I was tricked".
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I answered you, they were tricked ...
This is a total cop out. Anyone can sin and say they were "tricked" and so are not responsible for their behavior. And if nobody is responsible for their behavior, then Jesus's sacrifice was meaningless. Repentance is meaningless. "It wasn't my fault, I was tricked".
I think I may have just wet myself, a little…
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Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.
What would even be the point of human existence in this scenario?
God creates humanity, then chooses to "save" some and condemn others to endless punishment? And this could somehow be perceived of as a benevolent deity? "Yah sorry that you're burning in hell for all eternity, it has nothing to do with your choices, I just decided to do that to you..."
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Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.
What would even be the point of human existence in this scenario?
God creates humanity, then chooses to "save" some and condemn others to endless punishment? And this could somehow be perceived of as a benevolent deity? "Yah sorry that you're burning in hell for all eternity, it has nothing to do with your choices, I just decided to do that to you..."
There is a huge segment of Christianity that believes this…
Thankfully I don’t
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There is a huge segment of Christianity that believes this…
Right, Calvinists. It's bonkers. If I was a Christian, I would still find that movement morally repugnant.
Thankfully I don’t
In part because you are a very clear thinker, my friend.
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There is a huge segment of Christianity that believes this…
Right, Calvinists. It's bonkers. If I was a Christian, I would still find that movement morally repugnant.
Thankfully I don’t
In part because you are a very clear thinker, my friend.
Side bar/. Learned something new about Jewish Seder traditions yesterday
Saw 2nd chapters release is The Chosen (season 5) yesterday. It included a recitation of the Dayenu (?). “ it would have been enough”
Movie screen got so blurry….incredibly moving reminder of the overwhelming ways in which God has lavished His grace on His people
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Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.
Ya know, over the years in discussion with Calvinists, all will be done to avoid a "fatalistic" view of scripture. To the point, scripture is literally miss applied into their theology.
Concerning Billy's points (of his theology), I hope he approaches the point I made about Adam, whom at the time of his choice, is not bound by a "sin nature." Adam made the choice, of his own "free" will to rebel/transgress against God's will. After Adam's/Eve's death (spiritually), they began to live by their fallen sin nature as we can see very quickly, even leading to their desire to hide from God.
From that point on, all the scriptures Billy raises, apply to mankind. But concerning a point in time before any sin nature, prayerfully he can see how those verses don't apply (are miss applied) concerning Adam's free will choice when he had NO sin nature.
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Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.
What would even be the point of human existence in this scenario?
And thus fatalism. If one believed that God has determined all, they would say the point is in bringing Glory to God. I have problems with it but do exercise my apparent freedom in disagreeing with it. There is no consequence that I can see to a wrong opinion in such a system. I often am confused with others trying to change my mind about it, it seems futile, as if they were fighting against God Himself and what He has determined my view to be. Right? But then how do they explain their actions and beliefs? Maybe we are all just playing out our roles exactly as written. This is often characterized by we who oppose such a notion as humanity being "puppets" in a play. Anyone for "The Matrix" at this point? ::) (wow, we need to work on the emoticons available. No lol?)
God creates humanity, then chooses to "save" some and condemn others to endless punishment? And this could somehow be perceived of as a benevolent deity? "Yah sorry that you're burning in hell for all eternity, it has nothing to do with your choices, I just decided to do that to you..."
It is confounding. The stated coup de grace of the viewpoint, "All to the Glory of God". There are finer points of the argument that can be made, and it's probably best to not discard out of hand as preposterous. God's sovereignty is clear in the Bible. After all, God did favor Israel as a people. Jews were astonished at the Jerusalem Council of the conversion of Gentiles. This wasn't against God, this was provided for specifically by His sovereign will and revealed.
But again, if there is determinism of every individual's Salvation, then opposing viewpoints carry no consequence if wrong, you might as well believe counter as there could be no eternal consequence. It appears God allows it.
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Movie screen got so blurry….incredibly moving reminder of the overwhelming ways in which God has lavished His grace on His people
We will be reciting the Dayenu part of the Passover service at our Seder this coming Saturday night. In Israel.
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Awesome. in Eratz Israel, no less. With extended family, I hope.
I was telling a friend of mine (who is going through some tough times as he ages, and even tougher as his wife now suffers from some form of dementia) about the Dayenu.
I told him that perhaps it would be a good practice if all of us that claim faith in God would write out and recite our own personal testimonial versions of the Dayenu for ourselves personally and for our families.
Blessings to you, my friend, as you remember the grace of our God in delivering the nation from Egyptian bondage, and for making the way for His ultimate salvation.
Chag Pesach Sameach
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And thus fatalism. If one believed that God has determined all, they would say the point is in bringing Glory to God.
I fail to see how condemning people to torture for all eternity brings glory to anyone. If only someone was here to defend such outlandishness.
There are finer points of the argument that can be made, and it's probably best to not discard out of hand as preposterous. God's sovereignty is clear in the Bible.
One would be hard pressed to find examples of God revoking anyone's free will.
But again, if there is individual determinism in Salvation, then opposing viewpoints carry no consequence if wrong
I'm baffled that anyone would think that holding any viewpoints would somehow have consequence.
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Awesome. in Eratz Israel, no less. With extended family, I hope.
My son and his bride, who live in Jerusalem.
I was telling a friend of mine (who is going through some tough times as he ages, and even tougher as his wife now suffers from some form of dementia) about the Dayenu.
I told him that perhaps it would be a good practice if all of us that claim faith in God would write out and recite our own personal testimonial versions of the Dayenu for ourselves personally and for our families.
I think this is an excellent idea! It's why I'm a fan of codified Jewish prayer, so you don't miss out on the basics.
Blessings to you, my friend, as you remember the grace of our God in delivering the nation from Egyptian bondage, and for making the way for His ultimate salvation.
Chag Pesach Sameach
Amen!
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But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.
We DO have a will but the bible says it is in bondage, a slave to sin and bound to death. Before we can be saved God has to set us free and this He does miraculously at the preaching of the gospel.
The argument is never framed very well in my opinion. Your post has an implicit definition of freewill that isn't stated. Freewill in your post is about salvation. Does man have a freewill in God's plan of salvation? Said another way, and much more to the point, the discussion can be divided into two:
Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.
Are all humanity's personal actions towards salvation determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will in Salvation, or God's plan thereof.
It seems to me that the latter is often conflated with the former. You seem to be arguing the latter and allowing a bound human will in the former.
The bound human will (bounded by ability, circumstance, nature, etc.) is characterized as "free moral agency". Thus, our next-door neighbor's wife might catch our eye. Then she comes calling wanting to borrow a cup of sugar. There is either determinism of God for what follows, good or bad, or not. I do not believe what follows is pre-determined and makes nonsense of God's teachings on the matter on what ought to happen.
But when we expand the argument to determinism in Salvation, then we have rightly confined the discussion, at least in my opinion. But I still disagree with you. lol
Completely off-topic, and don't need to pursue it, but since evolution (assuming biological evolution) is not a lie it's not a particularly good comparative.
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...I'm baffled that anyone would think that holding any viewpoints would somehow have consequence.
It isn't hard to conceive. Error in one's viewpoint certainly can have consequence in my opinion. For example, atheism. If the atheist is wrong, there is eternal consequence to their viewpoint in my opinion. If their salvation was pre-determined, then being an atheist or not wouldn't matter. If the religious zealot has the viewpoint that killing innocents is blessed by God as an exercise of His will, then I believe that viewpoint will have eternal consequence.
That is the context I mean regarding that. I re-worded my sentence in the original as it was confusing.
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It isn't hard to conceive. Error in one's viewpoint certainly can have consequence in my opinion. For example, atheism. If the atheist is wrong, there is eternal consequence to their viewpoint in my opinion.
I think that most atheists are actually just agnostic. They don't know. In any case, I've observed that many Christians have this concept of "thought crimes" and even "improper belief" and I don't know that this is canonical. But then, I am not a Christian. Such ideas don't really exist in Judaism.
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It isn't hard to conceive. Error in one's viewpoint certainly can have consequence in my opinion. For example, atheism. If the atheist is wrong, there is eternal consequence to their viewpoint in my opinion.
I think that most atheists are actually just agnostic. They don't know. In any case, I've observed that many Christians have this concept of "thought crimes" and even "improper belief" and I don't know that this is canonical. But then, I am not a Christian. Such ideas don't really exist in Judaism.
Well surely there is error in action, right? And if those actions are based on wrong viewpoints (like my religious zealot example) then those viewpoints have consequence, at least in my opinion. So, it isn't a thought crime, it is an action crime carried out from reasoned viewpoint in error and contrary to God's will.
I wanted to expand on the determinism angle here. Often people like me accuse those who believe in determinism, where God has decreed and predetermined all actions of humanity (call it predestination), of making God out a murderer, or adulterer, or whatever action he predetermined to happen. I don't believe God predetermines every action and sin and thus justifies the "free will" or really "free moral agency" of humanity. I also believe this is clearly depicted in Scripture, both Old and New Testament. God can predetermine certain individuals for his purpose (like Judas for example) where it is in their nature to do so and use them. These examples are called out specifically in the Bible and are not examples of how God deals with every human but specifically in certain instances according to His purposes. If it was a given that all actions of all humanity are predetermined, there would be no reason in Scripture to highlight where God does predetermine a thing as we would all know already that it is all predetermined.
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Well surely there is error in action, right? And if those actions are based on wrong viewpoints (like my religious zealot example) then those viewpoints have consequence, at least in my opinion. So, it isn't a thought crime, it is an action crime carried out from reasoned viewpoint in error and contrary to God's will.
You're ignoring the possibility that someone can have incorrect thoughts but do God's will in a positive way regardless. Take an agnostic, who doesn't know whether God exists or not. They can still give charity, help the widow and orphan, feed the hungry, clothe the needy, and so on. Does the fact that they're uncertain about God's existence detract from the fact that they did good?
Or what about the opposite? I'm certain that the Inquisitors had the highest motives when they tortured people into be believing the "right thing" (whatever that means!) They believed in God and were bringing the "lost into the fold." Yet I think they were horrible sinners. What say you?
I wanted to expand on the determinism angle here. Often people like me accuse those who believe in determinism, where God has decreed and predetermined all actions of humanity (call it predestination), of making God out a murderer, or adulterer, or whatever action he predetermined to happen. I don't believe God predetermines every action and sin and thus justifies the "free will" or really "free moral agency" of humanity. I also believe this is clearly depicted in Scripture, both Old and New Testament. God can predetermine certain individuals for his purpose (like Judas for example) where it is in their nature to do so and use them.
I don't believe even this.
God has determined outcomes, both good and bad. But He gives humanity free will to choose which role to take.
For example, the question has been asked, why did God punish the Egyptians for enslaving Israel? Didn't God already tell Abraham, centuries earlier, that his descendants would be slaves for 400 years in a foreign land? Weren't the Egyptians simply carrying out God's will? Maybe He should have rewarded them instead?
And the answer is very simple. It was God's will that the Israelites be enslaved. He didn't tell Abraham where because that hadn't been decided yet. It was the Egyptians who volunteered to enslave Israel. They took it upon themselves to be the oppressors of Israel. And it was for this that they were punished.
Or take the events in the book of Esther. Hamas desires to kill all the Jews, unaware that the queen is Jewish. Her uncle, Mordecai, makes a plea for her to intervene, and he phrases it in an interesting way: He says "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?”
In other words, if the Jews are meant to be spared, God will save us. But wouldn't you rather be the instrument of His will? Maybe that's why He put you in this position in the first place?
This applies in modern times as well. The six million were meant to die, for reasons known to God and not us. But it was the Nazis who volunteered to carry it out, and I feel certain that their afterlife is quite eventful...
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When, as a toddler, I first learned of God, I became enraged and wanted nothing to do with the Creator. The thought of being destined to meet Him, let alone the notion of being accountable to Him tortured me, and I wrestled night and day.
I've since learned that most of the human race is doomed and that is through the wanten exercise of freewill.
I understood, at that early age, that a personal decision, to embrace the reality of God or to run from Him was incumbent upon me. I chose poorly, time and time again, with the full conviction that the choice was mine.
The same freewill that kept me in sin, is the
freewill whereby I embraced Christ.
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17
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Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ...
No. We can choose because we have free will.
God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding?
There is nothing in the bible that leads me to believe that God does such things.
You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.
This is not holy writ to me. But even if it was, I do not believe that it means what you're saying. God takes away people's free will and then sends them to hell for all eternity for not believing? Any deity that would do such a thing is not worth worship. Rather, Jesus is using strong language to shock the listener into thinking about what he's saying.
You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?
I do not believe in this "rebirth". It's metaphorical, not literal. To take it literally is like Muslims calling converts "reverts", as if to say, that everyone is born a Muslim and goes to another religion before "coming back"
Ye must be born again
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When, as a toddler, I first learned of God, I became enraged and wanted nothing to do with the Creator. The thought of being destined to meet Him, let alone the notion of being accountable to Him tortured me, and I wrestled night and day.
I've since learned that most of the human race is doomed and that is through the wanten exercise of freewill.
I understood, at that early age, that a personal decision, to embrace the reality of God or to run from Him was incumbent upon me. I chose poorly, time and time again, with the full conviction that the choice was mine.
The same freewill that kept me in sin, is the
freewill whereby I embraced Christ.
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17
You were in bondage but God overruled your rebellious will subjugated it and made you to lay it down at the cross, Because God does this gently,He woos us [although He can mix it if He wants] people hardly know that He is doing it.
So we go around crowing that it was our choice, our decision.
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But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.
We DO have a will but the bible says it is in bondage, a slave to sin and bound to death. Before we can be saved God has to set us free and this He does miraculously at the preaching of the gospel.
The argument is never framed very well in my opinion. Your post has an implicit definition of freewill that isn't stated. Freewill in your post is about salvation. Does man have a freewill in God's plan of salvation? Said another way, and much more to the point, the discussion can be divided into two:
Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.
Are all humanity's personal actions towards salvation determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will in Salvation, or God's plan thereof.
It seems to me that the latter is often conflated with the former. You seem to be arguing the latter and allowing a bound human will in the former.
The bound human will (bounded by ability, circumstance, nature, etc.) is characterized as "free moral agency". Thus, our next-door neighbor's wife might catch our eye. Then she comes calling wanting to borrow a cup of sugar. There is either determinism of God for what follows, good or bad, or not. I do not believe what follows is pre-determined and makes nonsense of God's teachings on the matter on what ought to happen.
But when we expand the argument to determinism in Salvation, then we have rightly confined the discussion, at least in my opinion. But I still disagree with you. lol
lol ;D
God knows and foreknows the path we will take and at certain points actively intervenes and He is irresistible/ For reference read Jonah.
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Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?
I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.
"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?
Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.
But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.
Billy, Adam was not a slave to sin before he freely chose to eat the fruit, the choice and the action's consequence (spiritually dying) resulted in him then (after the action), having a sin nature.
To keep mentioning about "our" sin nature avoids the acknowledgment of free choice that Adam made before, mankind had a sin nature. Thus, discussing this is difficult. Sin nature did not apply to Adam in making his choice. There is NO slavery to a sin nature before the fruit was placed in his hand by Eve.
I assume that when you understand we're discussing a moment in time BEFORE mankind had a sin nature, then discussing this topic won't be so difficult?
A verse showing an ontological change in Adam’s nature as a part of the curse would likewise be helpful
Along with an explanation of how God can take a child of one month old to heaven without being either a universalist or a fraud since that child does not confess Jesus as Lord.
Perhaps Paul doesn’t use the term “sin nature” in an ontological way but in a practical pragmatic understanding of reality way.
We know that Adam changed 180 % after his rebellion. His recognition of his nakedness, do you think it is referring to clothes? I think Adam was clothed in shekinah glory before he rebelled. He fled from God ...heartbreaking, people are still fleeing from God today, he turned and blamed Eve. All the love and trust was gone.
Man could scarcely be saved unless that love and trust can be recovered
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Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.
Let's clean all quotes except the one we are actually responding to. It makes the flow less confusing.
Choice is Freewill. You can't have one without the other
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Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.
Let's clean all quotes except the one we are actually responding to. It makes the flow less confusing.
Choice is Freewill. You can't have one without the other
Not having it bro. Not unless YOU are the one who designed the options with all the consequences that follow on from whichever choice you make.
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We know that Adam changed 180 % after his rebellion. His recognition of his nakedness, do you think it is referring to clothes? I think Adam was clothed in shekinah glory before he rebelled. He fled from God ...heartbreaking, people are still fleeing from God today, he turned and blamed Eve. All the love and trust was gone.
Man could scarcely be saved unless that love and trust can be recovered
I agree, Adam's life took a 180 degree turn once he rebelled. My discussion point however, you are failing to address. Adam made his choice BEFORE sin was in the world, before he was spiritually dead, before the 180 degree turn. All your discussion points and all the scriptures you raise concerning free will are about AFTER the fall.
Adam freely made a choice before the fall of mankind. His (Adam's) choice, not God's choice for him.
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We know that Adam changed 180 % after his rebellion. His recognition of his nakedness, do you think it is referring to clothes? I think Adam was clothed in shekinah glory before he rebelled. He fled from God ...heartbreaking, people are still fleeing from God today, he turned and blamed Eve. All the love and trust was gone.
Man could scarcely be saved unless that love and trust can be recovered
I agree, Adam's life took a 180 degree turn once he rebelled. My discussion point however, you are failing to address. Adam made his choice BEFORE sin was in the world, before he was spiritually dead, before the 180 degree turn. All your discussion points and all the scriptures you raise concerning free will are about AFTER the fall.
Adam freely made a choice before the fall of mankind. His (Adam's) choice, not God's choice for him.
I answered, a long comprehensive answer only for it to be sent into cyberspace ... grrr mebbe I 'll have another bash later.
I do not blame God for man's sin I blame the devil in deceiving man into believing he had freewill. ... and of course man for believing the devil.
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The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.
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The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.
That's bullshit
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The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.
You are very confused about what free will is. Your position is so bad it has warped your sense of reality.
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The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.
That's bullshit
In Suessian its bovinus excrementus.
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The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.
That's bullshit
In Suessian its bovinus excrementus.
Mr Milchick said it best, talking about feculence as he did to Mr Drummond.
I thought about just writing "BS", but I figure that level of making things up gets the full treatment.
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When, as a toddler, I first learned of God, I became enraged and wanted nothing to do with the Creator. The thought of being destined to meet Him, let alone the notion of being accountable to Him tortured me, and I wrestled night and day.
I've since learned that most of the human race is doomed and that is through the wanten exercise of freewill.
I understood, at that early age, that a personal decision, to embrace the reality of God or to run from Him was incumbent upon me. I chose poorly, time and time again, with the full conviction that the choice was mine.
The same freewill that kept me in sin, is the
freewill whereby I embraced Christ.
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17
You were in bondage but God overruled your rebellious will subjugated it and made you to lay it down at the cross, Because God does this gently,He woos us [although He can mix it if He wants] people hardly know that He is doing it.
So we go around crowing that it was our choice, our decision.
Your self-contradiction here amounts to a sort of inchoherent rambling. The Edenic discourse makes it clear that Adam chose. Whatever notions "you" offer concerning his pre and post fall nature are speculative, imaginative and without scriptural authority.
As a Christ believer I would suggest Romans 1 for a clear scenario on man's wilful post-fall nature and his culpability before God.
Your ad-libbing amounts to confusion.
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I do not blame God for man's sin I blame the devil in deceiving man into believing he had freewill. ... and of course man for believing the devil.
You are still not addressing the point that, Adam made a choice.
A) We all (in this thread) agree that God didn't make him choose.
B) Based on this present response you made, satan deceived Adam into believing he had free will.
C) If Adam is deceived into thinking he had free will, then who or what made Adam choose?
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We know that Adam changed 180 % after his rebellion. His recognition of his nakedness, do you think it is referring to clothes? I think Adam was clothed in shekinah glory before he rebelled. He fled from God ...heartbreaking, people are still fleeing from God today, he turned and blamed Eve. All the love and trust was gone.
Man could scarcely be saved unless that love and trust can be recovered
I agree, Adam's life took a 180 degree turn once he rebelled. My discussion point however, you are failing to address. Adam made his choice BEFORE sin was in the world, before he was spiritually dead, before the 180 degree turn. All your discussion points and all the scriptures you raise concerning free will are about AFTER the fall.
Adam freely made a choice before the fall of mankind. His (Adam's) choice, not God's choice for him.
I keep answering you. Choice is not freewill
Adam had no say whatever in the options put before him or in the consequences which would follow on. The devil tricked him into believing there was a 3rd choice, that he could sin with and not die, in other words that he had freewill.
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I do not blame God for man's sin I blame the devil in deceiving man into believing he had freewill. ... and of course man for believing the devil.
You are still not addressing the point that, Adam made a choice.
A) We all (in this thread) agree that God didn't make him choose.
B) Based on this present response you made, satan deceived Adam into believing he had free will.
C) If Adam is deceived into thinking he had free will, then who or what made Adam choose?
deception
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When, as a toddler, I first learned of God, I became enraged and wanted nothing to do with the Creator. The thought of being destined to meet Him, let alone the notion of being accountable to Him tortured me, and I wrestled night and day.
I've since learned that most of the human race is doomed and that is through the wanten exercise of freewill.
I understood, at that early age, that a personal decision, to embrace the reality of God or to run from Him was incumbent upon me. I chose poorly, time and time again, with the full conviction that the choice was mine.
The same freewill that kept me in sin, is the
freewill whereby I embraced Christ.
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17
You were in bondage but God overruled your rebellious will subjugated it and made you to lay it down at the cross, Because God does this gently,He woos us [although He can mix it if He wants] people hardly know that He is doing it.
So we go around crowing that it was our choice, our decision.
Your self-contradiction here amounts to a sort of inchoherent rambling. The Edenic discourse makes it clear that Adam chose. Whatever notions "you" offer concerning his pre and post fall nature are speculative, imaginative and without scriptural authority.
As a Christ believer I would suggest Romans 1 for a clear scenario on man's wilful post-fall nature and his culpability before God.
Your ad-libbing amounts to confusion.
You guys talk about ad libbing. Where in all the NT do you read someone saying they chose Christ of their own freewill?
Always it is God who chose us. Before the world was begun He chose us, where were you then? The one or two who came running to Jesus saying they would be His disciples were turned away.
Contrary to what you say Paul teaches that we were in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe ... demons. Slaves we were to sin.
Why did you not of your "own freewill" stop sinning?
No in order to be set free you must die at the cross, lay down your will there and receive Christ as your Lord.
You think it is your freewill but the bible says different, the bible says we are born again not by the flesh nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God. ... why then do you say it was your will?
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You do understand that freedom of the will of man and sovereign election are not exclusive of the other or contradictory, right?
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By Billy Evmer. You were in bondage but God overruled your rebellious will subjugated it and made you to lay it down at the cross,
Ad libbing.
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There is a huge segment of Christianity that believes this…
Right, Calvinists. It's bonkers. If I was a Christian, I would still find that movement morally repugnant.
Thankfully I don’t
In part because you are a very clear thinker, my friend.
And you would be correct!
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You do understand that freedom of the will of man and sovereign election are not exclusive of the other or contradictory, right?
I do not. Sovereign election is a true doctrine, human freewill is a deception.
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Charles Spurgeon on human freewill
www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will (http://www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will)
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Martin Luther on human freewill
www.azquotes.com/author/9142-Martin_Luther/tag/freewill
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By Billy Evmer. You were in bondage but God overruled your rebellious will subjugated it and made you to lay it down at the cross,
Ad libbing.
If our Lord Jesus was sat with you at supper and He said "you did not choose Me but I chose you"
will you still insist that you chose Him?
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No rational believer believe that we chose Jesus. We all admit that Jesus chose us. What does that have to do with free will.
Jesus chose Judas, too, but we see how that worked out.
Why do you live in such a mentally constipated world?
Do you not understand that sovereign election and free moral agency are completely compatible without man being the source of salvation or of God being the source of evil?
Your rigid refusal to look outside the box of what you have been told must be eliminates from your conversation the possibilities of what can be, and which is -- mentally, philosophically, and spiritually -- true and satisfying.
God is sovereign. God chose. God made man with free moral agency. Because of God's foreknowledge, He is not limited to what must be but is free to see what could be.
Geez, it's listening to conversations like this that have pushed many of my friends and colleagues completely away from the Gospel.
"'Cause I said so" is not an answer.
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By Billy Evmer. You were in bondage but God overruled your rebellious will subjugated it and made you to lay it down at the cross,
Ad libbing.
If our Lord Jesus was sat with you at supper and He said "you did not choose Me but I chose you"
will you still insist that you chose Him?
Deceptive, suggestive language and ad-libbing where scripture does not suffice? Talk about "failed concept!"
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No rational believer believe that we chose Jesus. We all admit that Jesus chose us. What does that have to do with free will.
Jesus chose Judas, too, but we see how that worked out.
Why do you live in such a mentally constipated world?
Do you not understand that sovereign election and free moral agency are completely compatible without man being the source of salvation or of God being the source of evil?
Your rigid refusal to look outside the box of what you have been told must be eliminates from your conversation the possibilities of what can be, and which is -- mentally, philosophically, and spiritually -- true and satisfying.
God is sovereign. God chose. God made man with free moral agency. Because of God's foreknowledge, He is not limited to what must be but is free to see what could be.
Geez, it's listening to conversations like this that have pushed many of my friends and colleagues completely away from the Gospel.
"'Cause I said so" is not an answer.
Because the BIBLE says so, because the BIBLE does not credit human freewill with any involvement in our salvation.
yeh people do not like bible truth, they didn't like Jesus when He told them you are not My sheep
do you understand it is the flesh that rises up against the truth, gets angry.
If man had freewill there would never have needed for Jesus to come and die for us, do you understand that? God could just appeal to man and man could make the right decision ... The Jews have PROVED that it doesn't work.
Jesus died to set us free ... but you say you are already free.
Do you know the doctrine of human freewill came into the Protestant church after the Reformation? did you know that Luther' s last debate with the Catholics was on the question of human freewill? it is a Catholic doctrine.
Discussing doctrine does not turn anyone away from the Lord.
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No rational believer believe that we chose Jesus. We all admit that Jesus chose us. What does that have to do with free will.
Jesus chose Judas, too, but we see how that worked out.
Why do you live in such a mentally constipated world?
Do you not understand that sovereign election and free moral agency are completely compatible without man being the source of salvation or of God being the source of evil?
Your rigid refusal to look outside the box of what you have been told must be eliminates from your conversation the possibilities of what can be, and which is -- mentally, philosophically, and spiritually -- true and satisfying.
God is sovereign. God chose. God made man with free moral agency. Because of God's foreknowledge, He is not limited to what must be but is free to see what could be.
Geez, it's listening to conversations like this that have pushed many of my friends and colleagues completely away from the Gospel.
"'Cause I said so" is not an answer.
The idea that we have freewill is the devil's debate zone
God says "thou shalt not lest ye die" we do not have freewill in the matter, as soon as you stop to consider a temptation, the devil will come in and say "you won't die" we start to imagine we can get away with sin.
then BANG you are doing it
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Charles Spurgeon on human freewill
www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will (http://www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will)
Happily I am in very good company if in the minority
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No rational believer believe that we chose Jesus. We all admit that Jesus chose us. What does that have to do with free will.
Jesus chose Judas, too, but we see how that worked out.
Why do you live in such a mentally constipated world?
Do you not understand that sovereign election and free moral agency are completely compatible without man being the source of salvation or of God being the source of evil?
Your rigid refusal to look outside the box of what you have been told must be eliminates from your conversation the possibilities of what can be, and which is -- mentally, philosophically, and spiritually -- true and satisfying.
God is sovereign. God chose. God made man with free moral agency. Because of God's foreknowledge, He is not limited to what must be but is free to see what could be.
Geez, it's listening to conversations like this that have pushed many of my friends and colleagues completely away from the Gospel.
"'Cause I said so" is not an answer.
The idea that we have freewill is the devil's debate zone
God says "thou shalt not lest ye die" we do not have freewill in the matter, as soon as you stop to consider a temptation, the devil will come in and say "you won't die" we start to imagine we can get away with sin.
then BANG you are doing it
Stating a false narrative 37 times doesn't make it any more true.
You keep making God the author of sin.
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Charles Spurgeon on human freewill
www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will (http://www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will)
Happily I am in very good company if in the minority
Do you agree that God created the non-elect to fuel the fires of hell?
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Charles Spurgeon on human freewill
www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will (http://www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will)
Happily I am in very good company if in the minority
Do you agree that God created the non-elect to fuel the fires of hell?
No I do not though I do love Spurgeon and have consumed many volumes of his work. I have never been led to study Calvin I find his doctrine and understanding of predestination and limited atonement abhorrent and I understand the vexation many people feel, I believe he was simply wrong and should not be regarded as a villain.
Arminius when truly considered is 10, 000 times worse with his idea that man can and must decide and choose of his own freewill.
Of course his theology was formed as an angry response to Calvin.
It means that BILLIONS of human souls must perish in hell because the church never reached them with an Holy Ghost empowered gospel. They never heard of Christ's salvation and now they must perish. That is the freewill theology.
I believe in a BILLIONfold wider mercy which neither Calvin or Spurgeon would have suffered ... and which the majority of Evangelicals today will not suffer. It is only possible in the Sovereign Grace theology.
That's another subject.
Peace.
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No rational believer believe that we chose Jesus. We all admit that Jesus chose us. What does that have to do with free will.
Jesus chose Judas, too, but we see how that worked out.
Why do you live in such a mentally constipated world?
Do you not understand that sovereign election and free moral agency are completely compatible without man being the source of salvation or of God being the source of evil?
Your rigid refusal to look outside the box of what you have been told must be eliminates from your conversation the possibilities of what can be, and which is -- mentally, philosophically, and spiritually -- true and satisfying.
God is sovereign. God chose. God made man with free moral agency. Because of God's foreknowledge, He is not limited to what must be but is free to see what could be.
Geez, it's listening to conversations like this that have pushed many of my friends and colleagues completely away from the Gospel.
"'Cause I said so" is not an answer.
The idea that we have freewill is the devil's debate zone
God says "thou shalt not lest ye die" we do not have freewill in the matter, as soon as you stop to consider a temptation, the devil will come in and say "you won't die" we start to imagine we can get away with sin.
then BANG you are doing it
Stating a false narrative 37 times doesn't make it any more true.
You keep making God the author of sin.
Never
Freewill theology blames God for if God gave us freewill to sin then He cannot blame us if we use this gift [no-where mentioned in scripture] to rebel against Him.
God forbade sin. The very fact that He forbade it destroys the idea that we have freewill.
If you give your kids freewill and they go and smash up the neighbourhood then YOU are responsible.
-
No rational believer believe that we chose Jesus. We all admit that Jesus chose us. What does that have to do with free will.
Jesus chose Judas, too, but we see how that worked out.
Why do you live in such a mentally constipated world?
Do you not understand that sovereign election and free moral agency are completely compatible without man being the source of salvation or of God being the source of evil?
Your rigid refusal to look outside the box of what you have been told must be eliminates from your conversation the possibilities of what can be, and which is -- mentally, philosophically, and spiritually -- true and satisfying.
God is sovereign. God chose. God made man with free moral agency. Because of God's foreknowledge, He is not limited to what must be but is free to see what could be.
Geez, it's listening to conversations like this that have pushed many of my friends and colleagues completely away from the Gospel.
"'Cause I said so" is not an answer.
The idea that we have freewill is the devil's debate zone
God says "thou shalt not lest ye die" we do not have freewill in the matter, as soon as you stop to consider a temptation, the devil will come in and say "you won't die" we start to imagine we can get away with sin.
then BANG you are doing it
Stating a false narrative 37 times doesn't make it any more true.
You keep making God the author of sin.
That's what the evolutionists do in every science and nature programme they hammer it into peoples head until everyone believes it and anyone who disagrees is mocked and despised.
It is called brainwashing and is the devil. He has done the same thing in the church with the false doctrine of human freewill.
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Charles Spurgeon on human freewill
www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will (http://www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will)
Happily I am in very good company if in the minority
Do you agree that God created the non-elect to fuel the fires of hell?
No I do not though I do love Spurgeon and have consumed many volumes of his work. I have never been led to study Calvin I find his doctrine and understanding of predestination and limited atonement abhorrent and I understand the vexation many people feel, I believe he was simply wrong and should not be regarded as a villain.
Arminius when truly considered is 10, 000 times worse with his idea that man can and must decide and choose of his own freewill.
Of course his theology was formed as an angry response to Calvin.
It means that BILLIONS of human souls must perish in hell because the church never reached them with an Holy Ghost empowered gospel. They never heard of Christ's salvation and now they must perish. That is the freewill theology.
I believe in a BILLIONfold wider mercy which neither Calvin or Spurgeon would have suffered ... and which the majority of Evangelicals today will not suffer. It is only possible in the Sovereign Grace theology.
That's another subject.
Peace.
Well
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at least you finally got there
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And it appears you know little of Arminius
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That's what the evolutionists do in every science and nature programme they hammer it into peoples head until everyone believes it and anyone who disagrees is mocked and despised.
They (we) don't do that at all, but don't let that stand in the way of being wrong in that analogy as well.
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Charles Spurgeon on human freewill
www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will (http://www.azquotes.com/author/13978-Charles_Spurgeon/tag/free-will)
Happily I am in very good company if in the minority
Many post-Apostolic and church-age theologians are the false teachers Jesus warned about. The Bible is sufficient for doctrine and warns against destructive sectarianisn.
Citing theologians and Protestant heroes for reproof cannot approach the "contextual" dividing of the Scriptures.
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God forbade sin. The very fact that He forbade it destroys the idea that we have freewill.
If you give your kids freewill and they go and smash up the neighbourhood then YOU are responsible.
If mankind has no will to transgress against God, how is man able to transgress at all?
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God forbade sin. The very fact that He forbade it destroys the idea that we have freewill.
If you give your kids freewill and they go and smash up the neighbourhood then YOU are responsible.
If mankind has no will to transgress against God, how is man able to transgress at all?
Man has a will but it is not free it is everywhere in scripture enslaved by sin.
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Man has a will but it is not free it is everywhere in scripture enslaved by sin.
I'm gonna ask (again) the question you won't address... Adam was NOT enslaved to sin, so who's will was it that he chose to transgress against God?
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Man has a will but it is not free it is everywhere in scripture enslaved by sin.
I'm gonna ask (again) the question you won't address... Adam was NOT enslaved to sin, so who's will was it that he chose to transgress against God?
I have to keep answering again and again
Adam had a will of his own, he was free to choose God's will or to die. As long as he was in God's will he was FREE, free as birdie in the sky or a fishy in the river.
Nothing could harm him in his garden of abundance and beauty .... did you know that is STILL God's will for man, for YOU . It is what we are created for. Adam's amen to all this was simply to live. The only alternative was to die.
That is no definition of freewill, it's God's will or nothing
Romans 12
My brothers I implore you therefore by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God which is your spiritual worship.
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that you may prove what is the WILL OF GOD, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
How can you even talk about human freewill? we's supposed to be in God's will.
The only choice man has ever had is to live or die, if we live we are in God's will, if we die, dead men do not have freewill.
Do you know why you want freewill? this will shock you, prepare for a shock brother.
You don't really trust God, you don't really trust that His will is best for you.
The devil DECEIVED Eve and Adam into believing there was a 3rd choice, they could sin and not die. You and I can only imagine what a heady mixture this was, this temptation when it came. That rush of blood to the head.
It was under that deception that man sinned ... the deception that he had freewill.
We are created to do God's will. That is our life, our love, our everything. instead of fishies flapping around on the river bank in the froes of death we are placed back into our river of delight.
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Is that the 47th or 48th time?
We’re not buying what you’re selling.
You’ve become boring
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Is that the 47th or 48th time?
We’re not buying what you’re selling.
You’ve become boring
if you ask the same question you get the same answer.
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's no such thing as human freewill
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's no such thing as human freewill
I guess God made you type that…
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's no such thing as human freewill
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20)
Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7)
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God (John 1:12)
"My teaching is not My own,” Jesus replied. “It comes from Him who sent Me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether My teaching is from God or whether I speak on My own." (John 7:16-17)
While the called and chosen are foreknown and predestined, it's pretty clear from Scripture that free will is a factor in submitting ourselves to God through Christ.
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I have to keep answering again and again
Adam had a will of his own, he was free to choose God's will or to die. As long as he was in God's will he was FREE, free as birdie in the sky or a fishy in the river.
Nothing could harm him in his garden of abundance and beauty .... did you know that is STILL God's will for man, for YOU . It is what we are created for. Adam's amen to all this was simply to live. The only alternative was to die.
That is no definition of freewill, it's God's will or nothing
Romans 12
My brothers I implore you therefore by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God which is your spiritual worship.
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that you may prove what is the WILL OF GOD, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
How can you even talk about human freewill? we's supposed to be in God's will.
The only choice man has ever had is to live or die, if we live we are in God's will, if we die, dead men do not have freewill.
Do you know why you want freewill? this will shock you, prepare for a shock brother.
You don't really trust God, you don't really trust that His will is best for you.
The devil DECEIVED Eve and Adam into believing there was a 3rd choice, they could sin and not die. You and I can only imagine what a heady mixture this was, this temptation when it came. That rush of blood to the head.
It was under that deception that man sinned ... the deception that he had freewill.
We are created to do God's will. That is our life, our love, our everything. instead of fishies flapping around on the river bank in the froes of death we are placed back into our river of delight.
The only conclusion that is discerned from your answer is; it was God's will that Adam eat the fruit and Adam was obedient to God's will.
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I have to keep answering again and again
Adam had a will of his own, he was free to choose God's will or to die. As long as he was in God's will he was FREE, free as birdie in the sky or a fishy in the river.
Nothing could harm him in his garden of abundance and beauty .... did you know that is STILL God's will for man, for YOU . It is what we are created for. Adam's amen to all this was simply to live. The only alternative was to die.
That is no definition of freewill, it's God's will or nothing
Romans 12
My brothers I implore you therefore by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God which is your spiritual worship.
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that you may prove what is the WILL OF GOD, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
How can you even talk about human freewill? we's supposed to be in God's will.
The only choice man has ever had is to live or die, if we live we are in God's will, if we die, dead men do not have freewill.
Do you know why you want freewill? this will shock you, prepare for a shock brother.
You don't really trust God, you don't really trust that His will is best for you.
The devil DECEIVED Eve and Adam into believing there was a 3rd choice, they could sin and not die. You and I can only imagine what a heady mixture this was, this temptation when it came. That rush of blood to the head.
It was under that deception that man sinned ... the deception that he had freewill.
We are created to do God's will. That is our life, our love, our everything. instead of fishies flapping around on the river bank in the froes of death we are placed back into our river of delight.
The only conclusion that is discerned from your answer is; it was God's will that Adam eat the fruit and Adam was obedient to God's will.
that makes zero sense. God forbade the partaking of the fruit of that tree.
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OP does not understand what freewill is.
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that makes zero sense. God forbade the partaking of the fruit of that tree.
What doesn't make sense is saying Adam had no will to draw from. Yet he made the choice to eat what was forbidden to eat. The will to chose came from somewhere.
a) You say it can't be Adam making the choice because he has no free will to transgress against what is forbidden.
b) You say, based on your response, that God forbid him to eat the fruit, thus it was not God's will that Adam eat the fruit (I fully agree with you on this point)
c) However, a "will" is active, a will that caused (enabled) a SINLESS Adam to defy God's will = don't ever eat that fruit. Thus, due to defying (transgressing) God's will, Adam became a sinner = spiritually died and all of mankind since, is born of sin.
What "will" enabled Adam to defy God's will?
If not a "will," what power enabled Adam to make a choice to defy God's will?
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that makes zero sense. God forbade the partaking of the fruit of that tree.
What doesn't make sense is saying Adam had no will to draw from. Yet he made the choice to eat what was forbidden to eat. The will to chose came from somewhere.
a) You say it can't be Adam making the choice because he has no free will to transgress against what is forbidden.
b) You say, based on your response, that God forbid him to eat the fruit, thus it was not God's will that Adam eat the fruit (I fully agree with you on this point)
c) However, a "will" is active, a will that caused (enabled) a SINLESS Adam to defy God's will = don't ever eat that fruit. Thus, due to defying (transgressing) God's will, Adam became a sinner = spiritually died and all of mankind since, is born of sin.
What "will" enabled Adam to defy God's will?
If not a "will," what power enabled Adam to make a choice to defy God's will?
Romans 6-vs16
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin which leads to death or of righteousness.
what happened to Adam when he obeyed Satan's voice?
He had a will ... but it was not free, we are servants.
We cannot serve 2 masters but we will serve ... where do you read freewill in any of that?
Our perfect freedom is finding God's will for our lives, He has created us for a purpose. Anything short of God's will for our lives will disappoint.
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Romans 6-vs16
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin which leads to death or of righteousness.
what happened to Adam when he obeyed Satan's voice?
He had a will ... but it was not free, we are servants.
Again, you are pointing out that man has the will to choose, and at the same time, try to convince others this will is not free. Here is why I say this, a will has to come from somewhere. We choose to be a slave, we are not made to be a slave, we are not forced to be a slave. God didn't will Adam to eat the fruit, satan didn't will Adam to eat the fruit. God desires that all of mankind be saved, satan desires that none of mankind be saved.
Yet, some of mankind choose to be slaves to God (and be righteous), some choose to be slaves to satan (and remain dead in sin).
We cannot serve 2 masters but we will serve ... where do you read freewill in any of that?
Where? In the verse!!
Why, because the verse is pointed out that "...you..." yield yourself to either God or satan. This single verse reveals that a choice is being made. God isn't forcing (willing) either direction of choice. God doesn't make a man choose Him, satan doesn't make a man choose him and it's clear that God doesn't make any of mankind choose satan. We choose who to follow per the verse, ..." if you yield yourselves..." A choice is being made, freely. Why freely, I repeat myself; because neither God nor satan forces mankind to make the choice, we/you make the choice.
(A)Our perfect freedom is finding God's will for our lives, He has (B)created us for a purpose. Anything short of God's will for our lives will disappoint.
(A) "Our perfect freedom" again, you are literally pointing out our freedom of choice. Remember, Adam didn't "find" God's will for him, he was literally instructed (as all of mankind is through God's Word). But in Adam's case, God spoke to him directly as if you and I would speak together. In Adam's case, God MADE His will clearly known when Adam was ordered not to eat the fruit.
(B) Was Adam's "purpose" to eat of the fruit?? I must ask because this is the only conclusion available based on your words... "He has created us FOR a purpose."
You can't say, "He has created us for a purpose," and when Adam ate the fruit, THEN say, that was not his purpose.
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Romans 6-vs16
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin which leads to death or of righteousness.
what happened to Adam when he obeyed Satan's voice?
He had a will ... but it was not free, we are servants.
Again, you are pointing out that man has the will to choose, and at the same time, try to convince others this will is not free. Here is why I say this, a will has to come from somewhere. We choose to be a slave, we are not made to be a slave, we are not forced to be a slave. God didn't will Adam to eat the fruit, satan didn't will Adam to eat the fruit. God desires that all of mankind be saved, satan desires that none of mankind be saved.
Yet, some of mankind choose to be slaves to God (and be righteous), some choose to be slaves to satan (and remain dead in sin).
We cannot serve 2 masters but we will serve ... where do you read freewill in any of that?
Where? In the verse!!
Why, because the verse is pointed out that "...you..." yield yourself to either God or satan. This single verse reveals that a choice is being made. God isn't forcing (willing) either direction of choice. God doesn't make a man choose Him, satan doesn't make a man choose him and it's clear that God doesn't make any of mankind choose satan. We choose who to follow per the verse, ..." if you yield yourselves..." A choice is being made, freely. Why freely, I repeat myself; because neither God nor satan forces mankind to make the choice, we/you make the choice.
(A)Our perfect freedom is finding God's will for our lives, He has (B)created us for a purpose. Anything short of God's will for our lives will disappoint.
(A) "Our perfect freedom" again, you are literally pointing out our freedom of choice. Remember, Adam didn't "find" God's will for him, he was literally instructed (as all of mankind is through God's Word). But in Adam's case, God spoke to him directly as if you and I would speak together. In Adam's case, God MADE His will clearly known when Adam was ordered not to eat the fruit.
(B) Was Adam's "purpose" to eat of the fruit?? I must ask because this is the only conclusion available based on your words... "He has created us FOR a purpose."
You can't say, "He has created us for a purpose," and when Adam ate the fruit, THEN say, that was not his purpose.
Here is where your argument fails.
The choice is God's choice that He may or may not give. Adam was given the choice, we are not unless God gives it to us. Adam did not have to die, we must die. Adam was not bound to sin, we are.
The Red Indians did not receive the gospel until the Europeans arrived.
And there were folks present at our Lord's meetings of whom He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears and hardened their hearts lest at any time they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears and turn to Him and He heal them.
God hides Himself and that is awesome.
I do not believe as the majority of Evangelicalism do that people are doomed to hell when they have never heard the gospel and so have not been given the opportunity to "choose" or "decide" according to the Arminian theology.
I was listening to a well respected preacher recently saying that the final resurrection is just a formality for in his understanding having failed the rapture they had already been judged .... that is the common belief even if it is not stated in such stark terms.
I beg to disagree ... they will, the bible says, be judged and judged with equity.
I cannot look into people's souls nor do I have the wisdom to judge or the desire. What I do is trust God implicitly that He will do right.
There will not I am certain be billions of goats on that day and just a few straggley sheep
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Here is where your argument fails.
The choice is God's choice that He may or may not give. Adam was given the choice, we are not unless God gives it to us. Adam did not have to die, we must die. Adam was not bound to sin, we are.
You're pointing out your own failure. Read below:
Adam had a will of his own, he was free to choose God's will or to die. As long as he was in God's will he was FREE, free as birdie in the sky or a fishy in the river.
Everyone is free unless they aren't unless they are unless they aren't unless they are unless they aren't. It's consistent nonsense, like the UK Supreme Court.
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Here is where your argument fails.
The choice is God's choice that He may or may not give. Adam was given the choice, we are not unless God gives it to us. Adam did not have to die, we must die. Adam was not bound to sin, we are.
You're pointing out your own failure. Read below:
Adam had a will of his own, he was free to choose God's will or to die. As long as he was in God's will he was FREE, free as birdie in the sky or a fishy in the river.
Everyone is free unless they aren't unless they are unless they aren't unless they are unless they aren't. It's consistent nonsense, like the UK Supreme Court.
Pardon me? are you saying you have never sinned? are not a sinner? saved by Grace alone?
Do you not have to work in order to stay alive? perhaps happily you are retired.
Work totally dominates our lives. This was the consequence of being chucked out of the garden.
Yes you are right, I have sinned and I was awful
What a wonderful change in my life has been wrought
since Jesus came into my heart
there's a light in my soul which for long I had sought
since Jesus came into my heart
Since Jesus came into my heart
since Jesus came into my heart
floods of joy o'er my soul
like the sea billows roll
since Jesus came into my heart.
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Here is where your argument fails.
The choice is God's choice that He may or may not give. Adam was given the choice, we are not unless God gives it to us. Adam did not have to die, we must die. Adam was not bound to sin, we are.
Was it God's will that Adam NOT eat the fruit?
I ask because you say it's impossible to choose, what God forbids.
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Maybe God had no choice but to choose to let Adam decide whether to choose or not whether to have free will…
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Here is where your argument fails.
The choice is God's choice that He may or may not give. Adam was given the choice, we are not unless God gives it to us. Adam did not have to die, we must die. Adam was not bound to sin, we are.
You're pointing out your own failure. Read below:
Adam had a will of his own, he was free to choose God's will or to die. As long as he was in God's will he was FREE, free as birdie in the sky or a fishy in the river.
Everyone is free unless they aren't unless they are unless they aren't unless they are unless they aren't. It's consistent nonsense, like the UK Supreme Court.
Pardon me? are you saying you have never sinned? are not a sinner? saved by Grace alone?
Do you not have to work in order to stay alive? perhaps happily you are retired.
Work totally dominates our lives. This was the consequence of being chucked out of the garden.
Yes you are right, I have sinned and I was awful
What a wonderful change in my life has been wrought
since Jesus came into my heart
there's a light in my soul which for long I had sought
since Jesus came into my heart
Since Jesus came into my heart
since Jesus came into my heart
floods of joy o'er my soul
like the sea billows roll
since Jesus came into my heart.
"Adam had a will of his own, he was free to choose God's will or to die" [sic]
"The choice is God's choice that He may or may not give. Adam was given the choice"
Trying to turn my pointing out the contradiction here into "are you saying you have never sinned?" is fantastically disingenuous. When I'm done laughing, give it another try.
Fantastic impression of the UK Supreme Court, by the way.
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This thread gets the Rush song "Freewill" going through my head.
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When all else fails, quote the hymnal.
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When all else fails, quote the hymnal.
"The editor desires to acknowledge the very valuable assistance rendered by Mr William J. Marsh of Forth Worth, Texas, who, besides loaning numerous Mss., contributed the entire section of benediction hymns, many of which he composed expressly for this work."
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I believe free will in man (or angel) is an illusion.
I also no longer believe in a "Fall" of man, a "Fall" which is tied to the man and woman's act of eating from the forbidden Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Scripture clearly teaches that sin comes from sinner and holiness comes from Holy. Sin cannot come from someone who is Holy as 1 Corinthians 15 makes distinction between "earthy", created matter (man), and the Lord from heaven - Holy child becoming a Holy man: Jesus.
The question of "free will" in man touches several major doctrines in Scripture, one of which is "Was man created holy or was man created sinful?" If man was created holy, then there is no free will to exercise for every act and thought would come from a sinless being, such as is that of "the Lord from heaven" (Christ.)
If man were created sinful then every act and thought would be "continually evil."
Sin would come from sinner.
And why I don't believe in a "Fall" of man is mainly that the act of eating from the forbidden Tree was not man's fist sin. It was his second: lying.
6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.
By adding to God's Word "neither shall ye touch it [the Tree]" the man and woman prove themselves as liars and lying is a sin and sin comes from sinner.
Besides this the command "Thou shalt not" also proves that man was created sinful. But before you who read this go off the deep end, I want to make clear the definition of "sin" comes from Strong, who defines the word "sin" as "missing the mark." Now I ask, what is this "mark" that was "missed"?
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
God Himself is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against. Isaiah mentions three foundational truths about God. He says, "There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE."
If these three things about God is true - and they are - then the created 'makeup' of man is that he was created "missing the mark" of the glory of God. Sinlessness is a glory of God. It is His Nature, His Deific Attributes of Being. Thus, God cannot sin because His Nature is Sinlessness. And since Isaiah says God gives His glory ["Sinlessness"] to no one, then man by default was created sinful, or missing the mark of the glory of God. Man sinned; Jesus did not. One was sinful, the other was Sinless. Man sinned and so he has a sinful nature and one that needs to be redeemed in order to maintain the "image of God," not the image of Adam. As born-again believers we are being conformed into the image of Christ, not the image of Adam. One is of the earth, earthy; the other is the Lord from heaven, Sinless, neither was guild found in His mouth. And since the leopard cannot change his spots, neither can man change his nature, his DNA. And as such on both counts, the leopard by nature will eat meat, while the chicken by its nature will only eat seed. The leopard will not eat seed, and the chicken will not eat meat. Their natures are set and set with a sin nature.
Man was not created sinless else he would not have sinned. The last/second Adam (Christ) proves this. Christ was Sinless, Christ was Holy, Christ was Righteous, and He did no sin. Man, on the other hand sinned thus proving God did not reduplicate His glory of sinlessness in man nor did God create man as eternal. These are Attributes of God and He shares nor gives none of His glory to man.
So, if Christ is Holy, then Christ by Nature cannot sin. If man is sinful, then if follows that he will sin.
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.
is the same as sin comes from sinner. Sin cannot come from that or He that is Holy. Therefore, if man was created sinful, or missing the mark of the glory of God, then it follows that he is a sinner and [free] will sin. Man, sins because he is a sinner; he is not a sinner because he sins. The latter destroys the Doctrine of Imputation.
I think that's all for now. We have no free will. We have a sin nature we were created with and based upon that nature, we sin and will always sin, that's why God gave the "Thou shalt not" in the Garden. If there is no Law, then there is no sin according to Saul. It is the existence of "Thou shalt not" that proves man was a sinner before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree. And the Tree did not change the man. It was just a regular tree. But God used it to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness. And it worked.
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wut lol
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wut lol
Clean up on aisle 7, Jerry.
Bring a mop and a bucket.
We’ve got a live puker.
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He's gone now.