Is free will a failed concept?

[Slug1]

I was saved in '77 at age 26 ...

Interesting, I was 26 when I believed and accepted Christ as Lord :-)

By the way I am not saying nobody gets saved by freewill preaching,

I'll say it then, nobody is saved "by" free will. The Gospel is preached so that people can make a "choice" to believe in Christ or a "choice" not to believe in Christ.

I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.

Help me understand the meaning of the quoted part, about your repeated accusation that others would not dare to leave their home if not for God.

[Billy Evmur]

I was saved in '77 at age 26 ...

Interesting, I was 26 when I believed and accepted Christ as Lord :-)

By the way I am not saying nobody gets saved by freewill preaching,

I'll say it then, nobody is saved "by" free will. The Gospel is preached so that people can make a "choice" to believe in Christ or a "choice" not to believe in Christ.

I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.

Help me understand the meaning of the quoted part, about your repeated accusation that others would not dare to leave their home if not for God.

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible

Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God

[ProDeo]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.

That was about choosing the 12 [!]

Context bro.
 

[Slug1]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible

Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God

The Bible is clear, "all" of mankind (whosoever), has been provided grace and faith. Been this way starting since the Garden after the fall of mankind, all through both the OT (examples of Scripture revealing choosing - Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15; 30:19-20; Joshua 24:14-15) and the NT (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:11; ). To understand the NT verses about "being" chosen while other scriptures (OT and NT) that reveal our response by grace through faith is NOT irresistibly forced upon us, we have to account for God's sovereign foreknowledge and what He does (predestines mankind), with that knowledge. God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.


By grace, through faith. Mankind can either choose God or not to choose God. Jesus' sacrifice is for all of mankind, before even creation.

[Billy Evmur]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible

Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God

The Bible is clear, "all" of mankind (whosoever), has been provided grace and faith. Been this way starting since the Garden after the fall of mankind, all through both the OT (examples of Scripture revealing choosing - Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15; 30:19-20; Joshua 24:14-15) and the NT (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:11; ). To understand the NT verses about "being" chosen while other scriptures (OT and NT) that reveal our response by grace through faith is NOT irresistibly forced upon us, we have to account for God's sovereign foreknowledge and what He does (predestines mankind), with that knowledge. God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.


By grace, through faith. Mankind can either choose God or not to choose God. Jesus' sacrifice is for all of mankind, before even creation.

This is just where you make your mistake
Adam was FREE, you and I are not. Adam was free as long as he stayed within the perimeter of God's will, he did not do so he was deceived into believing he he could disobey God and not die i.e. that he had freewill.

Freewill is the devil's first and most effective trick. He uses it still today to lure mankind into sin.

Whereas Adam was free he has sold us into slavery. We are says Paul slaves to sin, servants of the one who we obey. And with sin comes death. Death has become our shepherd, it governs our whole life for we must work our whole lives to ward off death. If we do not work we do not eat.

You call that freewill.

But glory to God He has sent Jesus to come and set us FREE ... "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you FREE ... if the Son shall set you free you shall be free indeed" He rescued us with a glorious salvation.

If you had been free before there would have been no need for the cross. Jesus could have come and taught us and given us an example to follow and we could have chosen to follow Him. But it was impossible because we were bound by sin and death. By His death we could die to our old selves, our will which is not free but in bondage to sin.

The freewill doctrine is a backsliding to our old way ... though we be saved.

[Billy Evmur]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible

Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God

The Bible is clear, "all" of mankind (whosoever), has been provided grace and faith. Been this way starting since the Garden after the fall of mankind, all through both the OT (examples of Scripture revealing choosing - Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15; 30:19-20; Joshua 24:14-15) and the NT (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:11; ). To understand the NT verses about "being" chosen while other scriptures (OT and NT) that reveal our response by grace through faith is NOT irresistibly forced upon us, we have to account for God's sovereign foreknowledge and what He does (predestines mankind), with that knowledge. God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.


By grace, through faith. Mankind can either choose God or not to choose God. Jesus' sacrifice is for all of mankind, before even creation.

You can choose IF

If God sets you free to choose, if He gives you a choice to make ... He can open your ears to hear, He can stop up the ears so that hearing you do not understand. He can open your eyes to see or He can leave you in blindness and in unbelief.

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"

[Billy Evmur]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.

That was about choosing the 12 [!]

Context bro.

So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?

[ProDeo]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.

That was about choosing the 12 [!]

Context bro.

So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?

In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -

Context -

Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


Joh 15:15  No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Joh 15:19  If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.

Nothing to do with our free will discussion.

[Fenris]

this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God

Have you seen the news lately? I think God is content to let people express their free will via sin.

[Slug1]

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"

Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?

Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.

[Billy Evmur]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.

That was about choosing the 12 [!]

Context bro.

So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?

In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -

Context -

Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


Joh 15:15  No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Joh 15:19  If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.

Nothing to do with our free will discussion.

If it had nothing to do with freewill why did you quote it?

Abide in Me and let My words abide in you, only for the 12 eh?

[Billy Evmur]

this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God

Have you seen the news lately? I think God is content to let people express their free will via sin.

Is that what you think when you see the shootist at work in schools?

I see a slave of Satan

[ProDeo]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.

That was about choosing the 12 [!]

Context bro.

So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?

In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -

Context -

Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


Joh 15:15  No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Joh 15:19  If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.

Nothing to do with our free will discussion.

If it had nothing to do with freewill why did you quote it?

Because YOU made it an argument for your doctrine there is no free will.

And you were wrong.

Abide in Me and let My words abide in you, only for the 12 eh?

From which of what I said do you conclude that I think or believe that???

Please don't do this kind of rhetoric, it's insulting.

[RabbiKnife]

Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.

"All" doesn't mean "every one," it means "everyone one that God randomly chooses"

I guess I can make the Bible say anything I like as long as I make up the definitions.

[Fenris]

Is that what you think when you see the shootist at work in schools?

I see a slave of Satan

I see a person who made a choice. Just as the police officers who choose to put their lives at risk by charging into that school also make a choice.