Is free will a failed concept?

[Sojourner]

Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"

Is it your contention that this passage represents those to whom God would deprive salvation? If so, it completely contradicts John 3:16 (and other verses that say salvation is freely given to all who seek it). All scripture is inspired, so if passages seem to conflict, the fault lies with our understanding.

or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"

The companion verse of "No man cometh to the Father except by me."

The passages refer to those whom God foreknew and predestined coming to salvation by means of His Son. Those not foreknown and predestined never belonged to Him as believers to begin with.

[ProDeo]

I believe in choice but choice is not freewill.

My brain just fell out.

Dangerous place here 

[ProDeo]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.

That was about choosing the 12 [!]

Context bro.

So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?

In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -

Context -

Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


Joh 15:15  No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Joh 15:19  If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.

Nothing to do with our free will discussion.

If it had nothing to do with freewill why did you quote it?

Because YOU made it an argument for your doctrine there is no free will.

And you were wrong.

Abide in Me and let My words abide in you, only for the 12 eh?

From which of what I said do you conclude that I think or believe that???

Please don't do this kind of rhetoric, it's insulting.

When you say "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you" to apply to only the 12 yeh I find that fair game for an insult.

You are impossible.

But an impossible brother in Christ.

Shalom.

[Billy Evmur]

I believe in choice but choice is not freewill.

My brain just fell out.

Dangerous place here 

You need to pick your brain up 
How is choice freewill? did you set out the options? do you implement the consequences following on from whichever choice you make?

Can you even choose not to choose?

Can you come up with an option of your own?

[Billy Evmur]

Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.

It also renders human existence irrelevant.

If God is choosing some people to "save", while ignoring everyone else, why bother going through the process? God could just have placed those people in Eden and not created the rest of humanity.

Have you seen the fishy on the riverbank? flapping round desperately to stay alive, that is the human existence following the human will.

Put the fish back into his proper habitat, how hapily he swims, he is everything God intended for him to be.

When man surrenders his own will, which is in bondage, and finds himself in God's will he will find true gladness of heart, he will be everything God intended for him to be.

[Billy Evmur]

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"

Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?

Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.

That is an interesting question for I believe predestiny and election pertains to the church than to salvation,

Would you care to discuss that God predestines those who He knows will "never" choose to believe in Him? Meaning, predestination also includes those who will never be "the Church."

There is predestiny and there is destiny, the first is what God determined in eternity that man should be, the second is what governs mankind AFTER the fall. God never ever predestined man for hell. God predestined mankind to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace.

Man rejected God's plan, we ALL rejected His plan, "we have turned everyone to his own way" [own will, own way]

But God never changed, man changed but God's plan is still the same.

If the church ever got to be the church God intended her to be we would be like a city set upon a hill, a beacon of hope for the lost, the weary, the hungry, those in need of shelter. THAT'S what predestination is.

Nobody believes in the WIDER MERCY, that's because they reject predestination and election. If the church will reject the bible truth of predestiny and election they will never understand the wider mercy. They will continue to believe that just a few straggly sheep will be saved and the billions and billions of goat will go to hell.

Which is what 98% of evangelicals believe, Calvin or Arminius.

By the way I do not wish to seem a critic of God's church, the church is precious, and God does work out His plan to save mankind through the church ... even when she is backslidden.

And just to forestall the next question, I am not one who believes in universal salvation ... but I totally reject the idea that just a few will be saved. We do not judge by appearances.

[Billy Evmur]

Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"

Is it your contention that this passage represents those to whom God would deprive salvation? If so, it completely contradicts John 3:16 (and other verses that say salvation is freely given to all who seek it). All scripture is inspired, so if passages seem to conflict, the fault lies with our understanding.

or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"

The companion verse of "No man cometh to the Father except by me."

The passages refer to those whom God foreknew and predestined coming to salvation by means of His Son. Those not foreknown and predestined never belonged to Him as believers to begin with.

John 3.16 does not say for everyone who seeks it, it says for everyone who BELIEVES. The quarrel we have is how did they come to believe? of their own freewill? or did God impart the faith and [made them an offer] they could not refuse.?

The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof, so is everyone who is born from above
Who are born not of the flesh nor the will of the flesh but by the will of God ... why do you continue to say it was YOUR will.

[RabbiKnife]

How did Adam and every man since reject God without freedom?

[Fenris]

How is choice freewill?

Making a choice is the act of exercising free will.

did you set out the options?

Irrelevant.

Life is a test.  God controls the world and sets the circumstances. Human beings make choices and God grades us on what those choices were.

do you implement the consequences following on from whichever choice you make?

The outcome is in God's hands. The choice to act is in ours.

[Billy Evmur]

How did Adam and every man since reject God without freedom?

Adam was FREE as long as he stayed within the parameter that God had set for him "Of the tree of knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it let you die."

YOU are not free, you are a sinner, you are bound to sin, you are bound to die. These govern your life until Jesus had set you free.

[Billy Evmur]

How is choice freewill?

Making a choice is the act of exercising free will.

did you set out the options?

Irrelevant.

Life is a test.  God controls the world and sets the circumstances. Human beings make choices and God grades us on what those choices were.

do you implement the consequences following on from whichever choice you make?

The outcome is in God's hands. The choice to act is in ours.

To choose is a command which they had to obey

If they chose to obey they would live, that is God's will
if they chose to rebel they would die, this was also God's will though not His preferred will.

[Billy Evmur]

The doctrine of human freewill is idolatry. Man is on the throne.

[RabbiKnife]

The doctrine of human freewill is idolatry. Man is on the throne.

False. 

Are you a universalist?  Because according to your theology, since God is not willing that any should perish, then no one will perish.

Are you a sinless perfectionist?  Because according to your theology, since God makes a way for believers to escape temptation, then obviously no Christian can sin.

Are you sure that Jesus is God?  Because only by choosing to do the will of God can you find out if Jesus' teaching comes from God.

Are you a believer in only partial inspiration?  Because according to your theology, Joshua placed a false choice before the people of Israel.

Are you a double predestinatrian?  Because if you want to be Jesus' disciple you have to deny themselves and take up their cross and follow Jesus.

Does Jesus force his way into the heart of the unrepentant believer? 

Can a human seek God?  Can a human call on God?  Can the wicked forsake their unreighteous ways and behaviors?

Can a human receive Jesus?  Or believe in His name? 

Can a human choose life?

Can a human repent?

[Sojourner]

Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will. Our very ability to either obey or disobey God exemplifies the reality of free will as divinely ordained by God Himself.

[Fenris]

If they chose to obey they would live, that is God's will
if they chose to rebel they would die, this was also God's will though not His preferred will.

So in other words, humanity has free will and the opportunity to make choices.