Is free will a failed concept?

[ProDeo]

And from Alice in Wonderland....

"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less. ' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things. ' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all."

 

To whom is the bachelor married ?

Indeed, there is no choice.

[RabbiKnife]

I was predestined to have free will.

[Athanasius]

Bible doesn’t mention the Trinity either.

Do you believe in it?

God's triune nature can be discerned in scripture.

You can't say at the same time we were in bondage, slaves to sin, bound to die [I am speaking about before we were saved] and we had freewill.

Jesus died to set us FREE and that is a different state altogether, our condition as slaves is the reason why He must die, so that we might also die in Him and so be FREE.

.... but let us not now say we were already free.

He can't help it; God, in his sovereignty, decided for him to write that response, just as he decided for you to write your response and me, this response. Puppets everywhere!

If you have no argument to offer you might try a cheap shot ...
We are not puppets, what we have is the life of Christ within. God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure.

Don't you want Christ to dwell IN YOU?.

The devil makes puppets of men and women.

Oh, that is the argument, but I can see that you were predestined not to understand it. That's okay, it's not your fault and you're not to blame nor do you hold any responsibility in that.

If you want to progress the argument (assuming it's proper to call it "want" as this implies choice) you'll need to overcome that. Ignoring such a foundational conflict to play at proof-texting scripture is just a bit nonsensical.

If there is no free will then this is all play-pretend. So, unless you want to soften the claim there's really nothing to argue about except that you want to pretend we exercise any responsibility in our choices when according to the view offered, we don't.

[ProDeo]

But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.

Deuteronomy 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

To "choose" some outcome means to exercise free will and to select from a list of options.

So they MUST choose, they cannot not choose.

The red, can you support that with Scripture?

@Billy, I am still waiting for answer, you can not make a statement not in Scripture and build a doctrine on that.

[Fenris]

If they choose life, that is God's will, if they choose death, dead men do not have freewill.

I... have no idea what this means.

[Sojourner]

To me, free will remains the logical answer as to why people are allowed to do terrible things to others. For the most part, a person is permitted to kill, rob or rape a victim without God's intervention. Why? Because we have free will to do as we choose, right or wrong. Of course, that comes with the caveat that the guilty will eventually be held accountable and punished by God. His justice is not always swift, but it is sure and certain.

[Billy Evmur]

To me, free will remains the logical answer as to why people are allowed to do terrible things to others. For the most part, a person is permitted to kill, rob or rape a victim without God's intervention. Why? Because we have free will to do as we choose, right or wrong. Of course, that comes with the caveat that the guilty will eventually be held accountable and punished by God. His justice is not always swift, but it is sure and certain.

That is so far wrong it is difficult to know where to begin.

People are allowed, by God you mean, to kill, rob or rape without intervention.

The fact is if God had not and did not intervene no man or woman would ever dare to leave his home, we not only have mighty angels to protect us we have a system of governance which provides law and order and police to enforce it and justice to recompence the law breaker. All this is from God.

People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.

Mebbe if the church started preaching the TRUTH as it is in the bible and if murderers and rapers would see that they are slaves to sin and Satan who will drag them down to hell they would cry out as in olden days "brethren what must we do to be saved?"

Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."

"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.

You say it was their will, I do not deny, but it was not freewill but a will in bondage.

[Sojourner]

That is so far wrong it is difficult to know where to begin.

People are allowed, by God you mean, to kill, rob or rape without intervention.

The fact is if God had not and did not intervene no man or woman would ever dare to leave his home, we not only have mighty angels to protect us we have a system of governance which provides law and order and police to enforce it and justice to recompence the law breaker. All this is from God.

People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.

Mebbe if the church started preaching the TRUTH as it is in the bible and if murderers and rapers would see that they are slaves to sin and Satan who will drag them down to hell they would cry out as in olden days "brethren what must we do to be saved?"

Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."

"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.

You say it was their will, I do not deny, but it was not freewill but a will in bondage.

By discounting free will and blaming it all on being a slave to sin, you actually mitigate the culpability of the guilty. After all, as powerless slaves, they have no choice but to obey their sinful nature, so why should they be punished? The sheer number of murders, rapes, robberies and other crimes committed around the world every year is mind-boggling. Millions of lives have been destroyed as the result of child sexual abuse and human trafficking. All of these offenses and more occur because the perpetrators choose to sin--and that choice is the essence of free will.

The unsaved are indeed slaves to sin, and even the saved must struggle with it until Jesus returns to redeem our carnal nature. But a predilection to sin doesn't negate the exercise of free will. Being a slave to sin equates to acting of our own volition in accordance with an innate propensity toward evil. Free will represents people having the freedom to do either good or evil--unlike animals, which blindly follow natural instinct. Free will is not a failed concept. Denial of its reality is. 

[Slug1]

Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."

Christians do not reason that when a person does evil, the bed is made and must lay in it. Christians understand that anyone who has done evil before God, they can choose to repent, seek Him in/for forgiveness and their sin(s) is/are not accountable anymore.

People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.

A quick comment, if your statement was true, then ALL of mankind would kill, rob, and rape because no person has Christ until they "choose" to believe and accept Him as Lord. But reality is, not all kill, rob, and rape, even those who never choose to believe in Christ. Why don't all people "do it" as you say they will do, i.e. it's the will of the devil (as you say)?? It's because of free will. Even those without Christ CAN choose NOT to kill, rob or rape.

Freewill does the opposite of what you say because any evil doer can repent. Jesus LITERALLY came for those who are sinners (Matthew 9:13). So a Christian who says what you say they say...

"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.

... is a misrepresentation of Christianity. No "Christian" would even say, "let them rot in hell" because Christians don't want anyone to go to hell. Why is that? Because as a Christian matures through their sanctification, they become more like Christ and He desires that ALL of mankind, repents.

Just the other day I posted this on Facebook, maybe somewhere on this board as well:

Thought for the day:Are a Christian's words or actions discrediting Christ Jesus and Christianity? Then the words or actions are not from, nor are they led by the Holy Spirit.

[Billy Evmur]

That is so far wrong it is difficult to know where to begin.

People are allowed, by God you mean, to kill, rob or rape without intervention.

The fact is if God had not and did not intervene no man or woman would ever dare to leave his home, we not only have mighty angels to protect us we have a system of governance which provides law and order and police to enforce it and justice to recompence the law breaker. All this is from God.

People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.

Mebbe if the church started preaching the TRUTH as it is in the bible and if murderers and rapers would see that they are slaves to sin and Satan who will drag them down to hell they would cry out as in olden days "brethren what must we do to be saved?"

Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."

"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.

You say it was their will, I do not deny, but it was not freewill but a will in bondage.

By discounting free will and blaming it all on being a slave to sin, you actually mitigate the culpability of the guilty. After all, as powerless slaves, they have no choice but to obey their sinful nature, so why should they be punished? The sheer number of murders, rapes, robberies and other crimes committed around the world every year is mind-boggling. Millions of lives have been destroyed as the result of child sexual abuse and human trafficking. All of these offenses and more occur because the perpetrators choose to sin--and that choice is the essence of free will.

The unsaved are indeed slaves to sin, and even the saved must struggle with it until Jesus returns to redeem our carnal nature. But a predilection to sin doesn't negate the exercise of free will. Being a slave to sin equates to acting of our own volition in accordance with an innate propensity toward evil. Free will represents people having the freedom to do either good or evil--unlike animals, which blindly follow natural instinct. Free will is not a failed concept. Denial of its reality is.

You say yourself the unsaved are slaves to sin they have no choice but to obey their sinful nature.

You do not seem to grasp the reality of man's position, he is already lost, doomed, dead, without God and without hope.

How do you expect such people to live?

But God does not leave him to simply putrify which is what man would do. We live in a so called free society where men and even women march into schools where little kids play with high power assault rifles. Where kids are hanging themselves on trees and sticking it to each other in the school yard.

I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home. Yet you say have freewill. It is funny how freewill religion did not hardly show it's face in Nazi Germany. And it will prove itself just as ineffective in America as the darkness deepens.

But God has determined to save mankind. He may woo but if wooing fails He has an array of other weapons to use.

He intends to CONQUER man's will which is set in rebellion to Him, subjugate it to His own.

When we first came to Him we came in surrender, we laid our will at His feet and accepted His Lordship and very glad we were that we did. We didn't become puppets we received the Spirit of God to dwell in us and live in us willing IN US to do of His good pleasure.

Freewill doctrine is a backslidden doctrine.

[Slug1]

I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.

You've been repeating this. If I may ask, at what age did you believe in Christ as your Lord?

[Billy Evmur]

Instead of that the freewill delusion gives the murderer and the raper no hope. For even though it is a delusion it is a mighty strong one so much so that nobody is going to give up their freewill. So all they get from Christians is "you have done this terrible crime, it was your will to do it [even though it was the devil] you have made your bed and now you must lie in it."

Christians do not reason that when a person does evil, the bed is made and must lay in it. Christians understand that anyone who has done evil before God, they can choose to repent, seek Him in/for forgiveness and their sin(s) is/are not accountable anymore.

People do not kill, rob and rape because they are free but because THEY ARE SLAVES, that's what the bible says, slaves to sin.

A quick comment, if your statement was true, then ALL of mankind would kill, rob, and rape because no person has Christ until they "choose" to believe and accept Him as Lord. But reality is, not all kill, rob, and rape, even those who never choose to believe in Christ. Why don't all people "do it" as you say they will do, i.e. it's the will of the devil (as you say)?? It's because of free will. Even those without Christ CAN choose NOT to kill, rob or rape.

Freewill does the opposite of what you say because any evil doer can repent. Jesus LITERALLY came for those who are sinners (Matthew 9:13). So a Christian who says what you say they say...

"let them rot in hell" that is the modern christian reponse.

... is a misrepresentation of Christianity. No "Christian" would even say, "let them rot in hell" because Christians don't want anyone to go to hell. Why is that? Because as a Christian matures through their sanctification, they become more like Christ and He desires that ALL of mankind, repents.

Just the other day I posted this on Facebook, maybe somewhere on this board as well:

Thought for the day:Are a Christian's words or actions discrediting Christ Jesus and Christianity? Then the words or actions are not from, nor are they led by the Holy Spirit.

Did you ever hear the saying "there but for the grace of God go I" ? Why do you think you are not a killer, a raper and a robber?
You have been angry, you have looked with desire ... you didn't follow through mebbe, what stopped you? I'll tell you what it wasn't, it wasn't your own natural goodness.

Jesus said about salt losing it's savour. We see how this works out in society, as godliness decreases evil takes root in human society and spreads like cancer until the whole of society is infected ... open your eyes, it's where we are going.

Freewill religion will not stop it.

The Holy Spirit sent down from heaven will stop it, He doesn't ask anybody "please sir may I save you today?" He pierces the heart and makes men and women to cry out to be saved.

[Billy Evmur]

I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.

You've been repeating this. If I may ask, at what age did you believe in Christ as your Lord?

I was saved in '77 at age 26 ...

[Billy Evmur]

I'll say it again if it were not for God you would not dare leave your home.

You've been repeating this. If I may ask, at what age did you believe in Christ as your Lord?

By the way I am not saying nobody gets saved by freewill preaching, many get saved but that does not make it a true doctrine. AND I believe a great many MORE would be saved by the gospel first preached at the reformation and the Great Awakening.

[RabbiKnife]

Billy, can you sin?