Is free will a failed concept?

[Kingfisher]

I won't have time to add much to this discussion but I love this quote from a C.H. Surgeon sermon on this topic.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

[Sojourner]

Great quote. That God has foreordained who will dwell with Him in eternity and who will not is due to His omniscience, and in no way diminishes our responsibility to obey God and to respond to His offer of salvation. On the contrary, free will impels us to consciously submit ourselves wholeheartedly to the will of our Creator.

The animals created prior to Adam and Eve have hard-wired brains that follow blind, natural instinct, and live in the moment. Mankind, on the other hand, was created with free will--the innate capacity to choose to either obey or disobey God--because He wanted spontaneous interaction and fellowship on a personal, voluntary level. There is little merit or value in praise offered without sincere conviction.   

[Fenris]

Free will encompasses the freedom to act according to one's own volition, and there are many examples of man making critical choices, both in scripture and life experiences. In scripture, it began with Adam and Eve's free will choice to disobey God concerning the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. As God told Cain, "But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it (Gen 4:7). These are clearly examples of choosing to sin or not.

This is an excellent summary of the human experience.

[Slug1]

I won't have time to add much to this discussion but I love this quote from a C.H. Surgeon sermon on this topic.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.

Hooah. Here is something I recently wrote (maybe even in this thread) in effort to understand how God's will, freewill and pre-destination, culminate:

Ordained will and permissive will must be looked at and studied throughout God's Word. The reason I point this out is because if there is "only" ordained will, then mankind cannot transgress (sin). God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.

[Billy Evmur]

Apologies I have not got the hang of this format yet. This is Billy Evmur's reply

No problem brother, will do what I can to clean this up as I reply :-) A suggestion, when you click quote (top right) to reply, immediately click the preview at the bottom right and you can grab the to long dashes that are center bottom of the window and stretch down the area and see all the whole post and control where and when to break up quoting/replying.

Adam and Eve were wholly carnal.

Before or after they ate of the tree? If before, can you post the verse that leads you to conclude this.

How can it be freewill? it is a question of life or death, a question of obedience,
if you obey My will you shall live
if you disobey My will you shall die ... dead men do not have freewill

Again, another response that supports freewill. "IF" you obey or "IF" you disobey... supports that mankind makes a choice and their choice has fruit. If they obey, blessing/salvation. If they disobey, curse/condemnation.

Here is the great deception, the only way Satan can get man to even consider rebelling is by taking away the embargo "you shall surely die" in other words "you have freewill in this matter, you can do as it pleases you. There are no consequences.

If man has no freewill and can't make a choice for themselves, who is making the choice FOR man, satan or God? If you ignore my whole post, at least answer this question in blue.

This is the deception that strengthened Adam's hand to sin and it is the same deception that strengthens the hand of sin today ... and the church is teaching it.

Do you have any scriptures to support your comment here?

Adam and Eve were FREE just so long as they stayed within the perimeters of God's will ... God's will for man is only good, God's will is perfect. The doctrine of human freewill is a profound distrust of God's will.

The part in bold/underline, I agree with. Then who made the choice for Adam/Eve to eat of the tree? Man does not distrust God's will, they either submit to (be obedient) or transgress against (sin) His will and WHAT causes either choice? Freewill or... what?

Was Adam spirit?
1. Cor. 15.45
Thus it is written, the first man Adam became a living being, the second Adam became a life giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical and then the spiritual.

No, if you obey you are doing God's will, if you don't obey you are dead.

Choice is not freewill. They did not even have freewill to not choose. Freewill would say "Okay God I will disobey you but I shall not die"

The One who gives the options is the One with free sovereign will.

I'm not saying man doesn't have a will, I am saying it is not free, since Adam it is [says Paul] in bondage, a slave to sin. Bondage and slavery is no way to spell freewill.

What prevented Adam from having freewill was God's embargo "thou shalt not eat of it" and the warning that followed on "thou shalt surely die"

The great deception was that he would not surely die ... that is what strengthened him to sin. The deception that he had freewill.

[Slug1]

Was Adam spirit?
1. Cor. 15.45
Thus it is written, the first man Adam became a living being, the second Adam became a life giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical and then the spiritual.

This did not address my question because I did not ask if Adam was a spirit. Can you focus in whether or not Adam/Eve were carnal prior to eating of the tree.

After we can focus on A/E spiritual standing (alive or dead) before God, prior to eating of the tree, then we can discern how 1 Cor 15:45 relates or not.

Freewill would say "Okay God I will disobey you but I shall not die"

You keep going back to this statement, but without a verse for support, it's a statement.

The One who gives the options is the One with free sovereign will.

Gives the options! Are we able to choose WHICH option? Again, some of your statements prove mankind has freewill to choose "which" option.

I'm not saying man doesn't have a will, I am saying it is not free, since Adam it is [says Paul] in bondage, a slave to sin. Bondage and slavery is no way to spell freewill.

Since! Since Adam BEFORE or AFTER he ate from the tree?

What prevented Adam from having freewill was God's embargo "thou shalt not eat of it" and the warning that followed on "thou shalt surely die"

Again, more support for freewill because God's embargo did NOT embargo (prevent) Adam from choosing wrong and thus, by choosing wrong, he died spiritually.

The great deception was that he would not surely die ... that is what strengthened him to sin. The deception that he had freewill.

This statement is very convoluted. I will attempt to understand your statement:

1- The great deception was that he would not surely die - OK, easy to understand: satan lying that they would not die is a hook for the temptation to take hold and A/E believed the lie.
2- that is what strengthened him to sin - strengthen? This is an assumption. Granted A/E were naive to temptation but they were NOT naive concerning God's will about that tree.

3- The deception that he had freewill. - This is where it begins to become convoluted because you lead (#1) the statement with how A/E are temped by a lie about how they will not die if they eat of the tree. Then you begin to deviate from a scriptural position that they were lied to (this is clear in Genesis),  by assuming the lie strengthened them to make a choice AGAINST God's will. #3, you toss in this final statement that has NO context to how A/E were temped by a specific lie about not dying. All you are doing is holding yourself up to your belief, as if you have to constantly reassure yourself, they don't have a choice to transgress against God's will.

[ProDeo]

So when God said - don't eat from that tree else... - A&E were without defense? And then punished by God?

@Billy, thank you for the like you gave at post #29, but really, this was a rhetoric question.

I don't think God does such things.

As a father I don't ask the impossible of my kids and then punish them.

[RabbiKnife]

Perhaps some would like to take a long hard look at Molinism and the writings on the subject by William Lane Craig.  Some excellent videos available as well.

Free will and God's sovereignty are perfectly compatible.

[Billy Evmur]

So when God said - don't eat from that tree else... - A&E were without defense? And then punished by God?

@Billy, thank you for the like you gave at post #29, but really, this was a rhetoric question.

I don't think God does such things.

As a father I don't ask the impossible of my kids and then punish them.

Where did God ask the impossible? He said "thou shalt not eat of it" for some reason y'all interpret that as "you have freewill ... do as you please"

If you say as a father to your kids "you have freewill ... do as you please" and they smash up the neighbourhood then you are responsible.

Paul teaches that we are in bondage prior to being saved, slaves to sin, what part of that reads freewill?

We are bound to die. Death is not just pointing up our toes and croaking, that is just the point of death. No death has become our shepherd, it rules over us.

We must eat, we have to be clothed, we need shelter or we will die. For all this we need money, we have to work, don't forget to wind that old clock up. Our whole life is taken up with preventing death. We have no freewill in these matters. Death has bound us and the cause of death is sin to whom we are slaves.

Unless God has mercy upon us we are doomed. Thanks be to God He has had mercy, He sent His Son who has set us FREE.

But don't say we were already free. It's an insult. And we didn't choose Him, He chose us.

[Fenris]

But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.

Deuteronomy 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

To "choose" some outcome means to exercise free will and to select from a list of options.

[ProDeo]

1Tim 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Petr 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

[Billy Evmur]

But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.

Deuteronomy 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

To "choose" some outcome means to exercise free will and to select from a list of options.

So they MUST choose, they cannot not choose. And they must choose of the options which are set before them.

They cannot choose to reject God and still live ... a whole load of people would like that option.

If they choose life, that is God's will, if they choose death, dead men do not have freewill.

The doctrine of human freewill is a backslidden position ... is the church backslidden?
When we first came to Jesus we SURRENDERED, that's what we did. We received Him as LORD. It was our will which was in rebellion to Him [and I have never said man does not have a will ... only it is not free] we had turned every one to his own way, like sheep who had gone astray. Do sheep have freewill?

What God does is conquer our will with His love, He may do it softly or He may rough it up for us a little like He did with Paul. There he was knocked off his high horse scrambling around in the dust, blind. Yeh you can say technically he had freewill.

But we don't like being conquered do we? we don't like to admit we have been beaten. We soon recover our poise, especially after we have been to disciple school and learned all about human freewill, even though the bible never says anything about it.

And we start to say "I chose Christ" Jesus said "you did not choose Me but I chose you" "I made a decision" none of this terminology is in the bible.

Can you imagine Peter opening his epistle "thanks be unto God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill" it's laffable.

No it's always "Thanks be unto God who had mercy upon us and saved us of His own grace and mercy."

And we did not love Him but He loved us.

[ProDeo]

But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.

Deuteronomy 30: 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him.

To "choose" some outcome means to exercise free will and to select from a list of options.

So they MUST choose, they cannot not choose.

The red, can you support that with Scripture?

[RabbiKnife]

Free will

[RabbiKnife]

And from Alice in Wonderland....

"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less. ' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things. ' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all."