Is free will a failed concept?

[RabbiKnife]

If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.

Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.

"we have turned every one of us to our own way and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"

Did Joshua issue a command that the people could not obey?

Do Christians have the ability to resist Satan?

Did God create some humans to fuel the fires of hell?

[Sojourner]

Not sure how our free will is not evident as a reality when we have the innate capacity to either willfully commit sin, or else refrain from it. 

[RabbiKnife]

Not sure how our free will is not evident as a reality when we have the innate capacity to either willfully commit sin, or else refrain from it.

You have to remember

The hard core Calvinist does not believe you are anything but a puppet.

[Slug1]

If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.

Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.

"we have turned every one of us to our own way and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"

An illusion? If free will is an illusion then we have to explain how Adam and Eve's choice to eat the fruit of the tree was not their choice.  If eating of the tree was not their choice, then who made the choice for them and then ensured they followed through with the choice that was made for them.

Some support, John 5: 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. In context Jesus has pointed out that they are in error of their understanding of OT Scripture. Thus, are unwilling to come to Him (believe in Him). Clear indication that they have a choice to respond to what the OT Scriptures are truly saying about Jesus. Jump to John 8:24 where Jesus reveals consequence for "their" choice.

Jesus is not revealing we have a deception causing us to sin, we have a choice to sin.

I'll pause with this so far because there is much more to discern concerning choice, response, accountability, etc.

[Billy Evmur]

If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.

Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.

"we have turned every one of us to our own way and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"

Did Joshua issue a command that the people could not obey?

Do Christians have the ability to resist Satan?

Did God create some humans to fuel the fires of hell?

Choice is not freewill, the One who gives the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, we are not even free not to choose. The choice put before mankind has always been the same in essence.

Live or die
be blest or be cursed

Our sovereign Lord God who both arbitrates and implements whichever choice we make so we are serving His will, if we had freewill we could say to God "okay God, I will not obey You but I refuse to die" .... can you do that?

What if God doesn't give you the choice, if you were a Chinaman or a red Indian living in the days of Joshua you did not have the choice of to "obey and live"

Jesus has given us the ability and taught us how to resist Satan. Before we were saved we like everyone else obeyed the prince of the power of the air.

God did not create any man for hell.

[Billy Evmur]

Not sure how our free will is not evident as a reality when we have the innate capacity to either willfully commit sin, or else refrain from it.

But you can't [and I mean before we are saved] choose not to sin, it's like trying to fit a large lady into a slim garment, you may push one part in but another part will bulge out alarmingly.

Sin is a condition of soul, a state. we commit sins because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we commit sins. And all the freewill in the world can't save us from it ... only the cross.

... nor will freewil prevent us from dying.

[Slug1]

What if God doesn't give you the choice, if you were a Chinaman or a red Indian living in the days of Joshua you did not have the choice of to "obey and live"

All have a choice in believing in the evidence of God (Romans 1:18-20) and to make "their" choice and if they don't choose God, then Romans 1:21+.

Concerning your statement in the quoted section, let's take an example out of scripture, both OT and divide with NT.

Rahab... a choice to believe in God and choose to help Israel. She wasn't compelled either way, she chose. Then we find that due to her belief in God (faith), we have proof in the NT of her spiritual salvation due to her faithful response to grace.

[Sojourner]

But you can't [and I mean before we are saved] choose not to sin, it's like trying to fit a large lady into a slim garment, you may push one part in but another part will bulge out alarmingly.

Sin is a condition of soul, a state. we commit sins because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we commit sins. And all the freewill in the world can't save us from it ... only the cross.

... nor will freewil prevent us from dying.

Free will encompasses the freedom to act according to one's own volition, and there are many examples of man making critical choices, both in scripture and life experiences. In scripture, it began with Adam and Eve's free will choice to disobey God concerning the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. As God told Cain, "But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it (Gen 4:7). These are clearly examples of choosing to sin or not.

Faith in Jesus' shed blood takes away sin's power through intercession and by delivering us from the divine judgment and condemnation we deserve. You can be saved from a poisonous snake bite by means of antivenom. But that substance will not help you if you don't choose to actively receive it. In the same way, Jesus has the power to save us, but we must actively receive His salvation. And that is the ultimate example of free will.

[Athanasius]

Bible doesn’t mention the Trinity either.

Do you believe in it?

God's triune nature can be discerned in scripture.

You can't say at the same time we were in bondage, slaves to sin, bound to die [I am speaking about before we were saved] and we had freewill.

Jesus died to set us FREE and that is a different state altogether, our condition as slaves is the reason why He must die, so that we might also die in Him and so be FREE.

.... but let us not now say we were already free.

He can't help it; God, in his sovereignty, decided for him to write that response, just as he decided for you to write your response and me, this response. Puppets everywhere!

[Slug1]

Our sovereign Lord God who both arbitrates and implements whichever choice we make so we are serving His will, if we had freewill we could say to God "okay God, I will not obey You but I refuse to die" .... can you do that?

The more I've been thinking about this topic, your response in this portion of what you wrote earlier actually supports free will.

God told Adam, don't eat from one specific tree.

Gen 2:¹⁶ And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; ¹⁷ but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Adam understood God's will and informed Eve of God's will, who based on the following scripture, understood God's will.

Gen 3:² And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;  ³ but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”

Remember, at this time they have no sin, are not carnal in anyway what so ever.
They freely choose to not obey and ate of the tree.
Unless, you're true argument is God made the choice, that they DO eat of the tree?

[Billy Evmur]

Our sovereign Lord God who both arbitrates and implements whichever choice we make so we are serving His will, if we had freewill we could say to God "okay God, I will not obey You but I refuse to die" .... can you do that?

The more I've been thinking about this topic, your response in this portion of what you wrote earlier actually supports free will.

God told Adam, don't eat from one specific tree.

Gen 2:¹⁶ And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; ¹⁷ but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Adam understood God's will and informed Eve of God's will, who based on the following scripture, understood God's will.

Gen 3:² And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;  ³ but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”

Remember, at this time they have no sin, are not carnal in anyway what so ever.
They freely choose to not obey and ate of the tree.
Unless, you're true argument is God made the choice, that they DO eat of the tree?

Apologies I have not got the hang of this format yet. This is Billy Evmur's reply

Adam and Eve were wholly carnal.

How can it be freewill? it is a question of life or death, a question of obedience,
if you obey My will you shall live
if you disobey My will you shall die ... dead men do not have freewill

Here is the great deception, the only way Satan can get man to even consider rebelling is by taking away the embargo "you shall surely die" in other words "you have freewill in this matter, you can do as it pleases you. There are no consequences."

This is the deception that strengthened Adam's hand to sin and it is the same deception that strengthens the hand of sin today ... and the church is teaching it.

Adam and Eve were FREE just so long as they stayed within the perimeters of God's will ... God's will for man is only good, God's will is perfect. The doctrine of human freewill is a profound distrust of God's will.

[Billy Evmur]

Bible doesn’t mention the Trinity either.

Do you believe in it?

God's triune nature can be discerned in scripture.

You can't say at the same time we were in bondage, slaves to sin, bound to die [I am speaking about before we were saved] and we had freewill.

Jesus died to set us FREE and that is a different state altogether, our condition as slaves is the reason why He must die, so that we might also die in Him and so be FREE.

.... but let us not now say we were already free.

He can't help it; God, in his sovereignty, decided for him to write that response, just as he decided for you to write your response and me, this response. Puppets everywhere!

If you have no argument to offer you might try a cheap shot ...
We are not puppets, what we have is the life of Christ within. God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure.

Don't you want Christ to dwell IN YOU?.

The devil makes puppets of men and women.

[Billy Evmur]

But you can't [and I mean before we are saved] choose not to sin, it's like trying to fit a large lady into a slim garment, you may push one part in but another part will bulge out alarmingly.

Sin is a condition of soul, a state. we commit sins because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we commit sins. And all the freewill in the world can't save us from it ... only the cross.

... nor will freewil prevent us from dying.

Free will encompasses the freedom to act according to one's own volition, and there are many examples of man making critical choices, both in scripture and life experiences. In scripture, it began with Adam and Eve's free will choice to disobey God concerning the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. As God told Cain, "But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it (Gen 4:7). These are clearly examples of choosing to sin or not.

Faith in Jesus' shed blood takes away sin's power through intercession and by delivering us from the divine judgment and condemnation we deserve. You can be saved from a poisonous snake bite by means of antivenom. But that substance will not help you if you don't choose to actively receive it. In the same way, Jesus has the power to save us, but we must actively receive His salvation. And that is the ultimate example of free will.

What God said to Cain was in essence "if you do not according to My will, the devil is ready to force you to do his will"
Freewill is not on offer here. No man can serve two master, but he will serve.

Paul teaches that we actually become slaves to the one whose word we obey. either sin unto death or righteousness unto life. I acknowledge that Paul uses the word slave guardedly, but his meaning is clear.

As Christians we are set FREE, this is a wholly new state or condition to be in. But we must stay free. We were like fishies flapping around on the river bank and the Lord has kindly chucked us back into water, as long as we stay in our proper habitat we shall be perfectly happy and free to be all that we are created to be.

To backslide into freewill is to step back to bondage for our wills will lead us there.

[Slug1]

Apologies I have not got the hang of this format yet. This is Billy Evmur's reply

No problem brother, will do what I can to clean this up as I reply :-) A suggestion, when you click quote (top right) to reply, immediately click the preview at the bottom right and you can grab the to long dashes that are center bottom of the window and stretch down the area and see all the whole post and control where and when to break up quoting/replying.

Adam and Eve were wholly carnal.

Before or after they ate of the tree? If before, can you post the verse that leads you to conclude this.

How can it be freewill? it is a question of life or death, a question of obedience,
if you obey My will you shall live
if you disobey My will you shall die ... dead men do not have freewill

Again, another response that supports freewill. "IF" you obey or "IF" you disobey... supports that mankind makes a choice and their choice has fruit. If they obey, blessing/salvation. If they disobey, curse/condemnation.

Here is the great deception, the only way Satan can get man to even consider rebelling is by taking away the embargo "you shall surely die" in other words "you have freewill in this matter, you can do as it pleases you. There are no consequences.

If man has no freewill and can't make a choice for themselves, who is making the choice FOR man, satan or God? If you ignore my whole post, at least answer this question in blue.

This is the deception that strengthened Adam's hand to sin and it is the same deception that strengthens the hand of sin today ... and the church is teaching it.

Do you have any scriptures to support your comment here?

Adam and Eve were FREE just so long as they stayed within the perimeters of God's will ... God's will for man is only good, God's will is perfect. The doctrine of human freewill is a profound distrust of God's will.

The part in bold/underline, I agree with. Then who made the choice for Adam/Eve to eat of the tree? Man does not distrust God's will, they either submit to (be obedient) or transgress against (sin) His will and WHAT causes either choice? Freewill or... what?

[ProDeo]

If there is no free will, then mankind can't transgress against God.

Freewill, not that there is any such thing but is an illusion created by the devil, but the deception that we had freewill is what caused us to sin.

So when God said - don't eat from that tree else... - A&E were without defense? And then punished by God?