Is free will a failed concept?

[Fenris]

Air conditioning and indoor plumbing aren’t in the Bible either, but well, you know…

And hence, not real.

[shepherdsword]

I don't think sin will be ever present. I think the whole reason the Lord tolerates sin in this age,is for it to come to it's fullness, "The Fullness of Iniquity". The Israelites spent over 400 years in Egypt because the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full. Once they reached the height of debauchery,they were judged by being driven from the land. This same pattern plays out again and again throughout history. Once a general society is so corrupt that it calls good evil and evil good there is no more room for the conviction of sin. They cannot repent. They have become reprobate. Once this occurs, it is called "the fullness of iniquity" and divine judgement is soon at hand. I believe the reason God tolerates the most despicable forms of evil is to let it be shown for all it is. In the age to come(NHNE) there will be no possibility of sin or rebellion. This is for two reasons. 1) We will only have the new nature and the sin nature will be totality eradicated. 2) Evil, having been allowed to come to it's fullness, will be shown for what it is. This will further act as a restraining force that prevents sin. In short...once we get through this and the next phase of testing...there will never be sin again.

[Fenris]

The Israelites spent over 400 years in Egypt because the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full.

This seems like a strange way to look at it. The Israelites had to endure slavery and bondage because the Amorites hadn't sinned enough yet? What does one have to do with the other? Rather, the Israelites had to endure slavery and bondage to be prepared as a proper receptacle for the revelation at Sinai.

[shepherdsword]

The Israelites spent over 400 years in Egypt because the iniquity of the Amorites was not yet full.

This seems like a strange way to look at it. The Israelites had to endure slavery and bondage because the Amorites hadn't sinned enough yet? What does one have to do with the other? Rather, the Israelites had to endure slavery and bondage to be prepared as a proper receptacle for the revelation at Sinai.

I think God in his mercy, delays judgement until there is no hope of repentance.

Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

[Fenris]

Ge 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

One is not dependent on the other. It wouldn't make any sense. Again, the Israelites have to remain in slavery because the Amorites haven't sinned enough?

[Billy Evmur]

1. The phrase free will is not in Scripture.

That is true. But the bible still impels us to make choices.

Deuteronomy 30: 19I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Therefore choose life, so that you and your descendants may live, and that you may love the LORD your God, obey Him, and hold fast to Him. For He is your life, and He will prolong your life in the land that the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”…

Joshua 24: But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”

Ezekiel 18: Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!

Isaiah 55: Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near. Let the wicked man forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

Psalm 1: Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or set foot on the path of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers.

Choice is not freewill, the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.

Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"

God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.

[Billy Evmur]

Being slaves then we cannot claim to have freewill

And yet some people choose to make the world a better place; to ease suffering, to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to heal the sick, to tend to the widow and orphan, just as the bible tells us to do. In Christian terminology, to lead a Christ-like life.

While others choose to make a worse place. This very week, we saw an example of that. A young woman was dragged off into captivity with her two young sons. All three were murdered for the "crime" of being Jews; the children were strangled to death by hand. And when the bodies were returned, it was to great fanfare, as though it were a carnival, so proud were the killers of their actions.

No free will? No difference? On the contrary, all the difference in the world.

That is a very big question, a forum like this is prolly not adequate to to fully explore all the issues that spring from it. Why does the good man do good deeds? Jesus says there is no-one good but God. Why does the evil man do evil?

What is the enablement for either? who is the enabler? can you feed the hungry and clothe the naked? can you heal the sick? It AMAZES me that people [especially American people ] object to and rail vehemently against the health and wealth gospel.

Jesus is King of the health and wealthers. I would give you one scripture alone which proves it "seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you" that is to say all the things the heathen desire and grab for themselves. That does not mean I would support Benny Hinn or that sort of manipulation of gospel prosperity scriptures. Mebbe they do it not so much out of greed but from a false theology [I prefer to be kind] I mean, Arminian theology, I mean the theology of freewill which does encourage and emphasise the need that WE must decide, WE must act, WE must do before God will do.

If Christians heals the sick and feed the hungry and clothe and shelter the naked They are doing GOD'S will and He is the enabler of it and joyful lifestyle it is.
If the wicked kills and pillages and rapes he is surely doing the will of his master Satan and he it is who enables it.

What about the man or woman who is not a Christian but who does good? he/she is doing God's will too.

Where do thoughts come from? whether good or bad.

You will say then we are mere puppets or robots ... but we are not puppets or robots. The life we have is the life God put in us when we were in the womb, planned in eternity. We act according to the nature we have, according to whose children we are.

 

[Fenris]

Choice is not freewill,

Of course it is. The ability to make choices is the very definition of free will.

the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.

Human beings absolutely have the ability to do that. You can't see a difference between Mother Thersa and Hitler?

Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"

Just because someone can't upend the laws of nature doesn't mean that they don't have free will. I can say that I choose to bound tall buildings in a single jump like the Hulk; just because I can't do that doesn't mean that I lack free will.

God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.

That too is a choice.

[Fenris]

That is a very big question, a forum like this is prolly not adequate to to fully explore all the issues that spring from it.

We're here and we have time. It's a perfectly adequate place for such a discussion.

Why does the good man do good deeds? Jesus says there is no-one good but God.

I think we can all agree that no one is "perfect" but God. That doesn't mean that nobody is capable of doing good. Deuteronomy talks about returning a garment given by a poor person as security for a loan

"Return their cloak by sunset so that your neighbor may sleep in it. Then they will thank you, and it will be regarded as a righteous act in the sight of the LORD your God."

The mere act of returning a cloak makes God see a person as having done something righteous.  Such a small thing. Imagine the important good things that we do, and how God views them.

Why does the evil man do evil?

Because they have free will and made a choice.

What is the enablement for either? who is the enabler? can you feed the hungry and clothe the naked? can you heal the sick?

Is this a trick question?

Jesus is King of the health and wealthers.

All healing comes from God.

But then, everything comes from God.

Isaiah 45: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

What role does humanity have then? Our role is to make the choice as to which one of God's mission we choose to fulfill. God desires that the hungry be fed. Are you going to do it? Are you going to be the instrument of God's will? It applies to bad actions, too. God desired that the six million die, for reasons knows to Him and not us. A wicked people stood up and voluntarily, joyfully did it. That is the human role.

[RabbiKnife]

Fenris!  An Arminian (not Armenian) Jew in whine there is no guile.

A brilliant response to the question “why do evil men do evil things” that does not make God the author of evil.

[Fenris]

Fenris!  An Arminian (not Armenian) Jew in whine there is no guile.

I hadda look it up. 

I agree with some of the views but not others. It would deserve its own discussion, but I don't see the point.

A brilliant response to the question “why do evil men do evil things” that does not make God the author of evil.

yes but also no 

[Billy Evmur]

Choice is not freewill,

Of course it is. The ability to make choices is the very definition of free will.

the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.

Human beings absolutely have the ability to do that. You can't see a difference between Mother Thersa and Hitler?

Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"

Just because someone can't upend the laws of nature doesn't mean that they don't have free will. I can say that I choose to bound tall buildings in a single jump like the Hulk; just because I can't do that doesn't mean that I lack free will.

God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.

That too is a choice.

So we agree we can either do God's will and live or do another's will and die. whether we live or die is not our will.

Did you choose to be born? funny how people object if you say we have no say in whether we be born again or not.
"the wind blows where He listeth and we hear the sound thereof but cannot tell from whence he came or whither he goes, so is everyone who is born of the Spirit

... who are born again not of the flesh nor of the will of the flesh but by the will of God. But you say it was your will?

[Fenris]

So we agree we can either do God's will and live or do another's will and die

Which means making a choice and expressing free will.

Did you choose to be born?

This is just childish. You're here. What are you going to do with your time? That's the whole reason for human existence.

[Slug1]

Choice is not freewill, the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.

Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"

God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.

Hey brother, when Adam made the choice to eat the fruit, he was not evil because he was not "dead" spiritually. Yet, a choice was made to transgress God's will. God will not express His sovereign will upon a man (Adam) and then, will that man to transgress against His expressed will i.e. do NOT eat of that specific tree.

Yet, Adam made a choice, while spiritually alive and not evil, to transgress God's will.