Is free will a failed concept?

[Fenris]

Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.

It also renders human existence irrelevant.

If God is choosing some people to "save", while ignoring everyone else, why bother going through the process? God could just have placed those people in Eden and not created the rest of humanity.

[Sojourner]

Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.

"All" doesn't mean "every one," it means "everyone one that God randomly chooses"

I guess I can make the Bible say anything I like as long as I make up the definitions.

The idea of God having an unalterable "saved" list and "lake of fire" list always bothered me. I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will. In Matthew 25:41, Jesus clearly states that the lake of fire was specifically created for the Devil and his angels. Unfortunately, the unrepentant are accorded the same eternal damnation they are. Conversely, the saved are predestined so because God knew from the beginning they belong to Him--not because they're among the lucky lottery winners.

[Kingfisher]

I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will.

There are many passages that are difficult for the Calvinist to reconcile and I've seen the explanations. Though, the most difficult to reconcile passage for the Calvinist would be Romans 5:18

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

All means all in both ideas of the passage right? It is the same Greek word in both uses translated as all.

[Sojourner]

I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will.

There are many passages that are difficult for the Calvinist to reconcile and I've seen the explanations. Though, the most difficult to reconcile passage for the Calvinist would be Romans 5:18

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

All means all in both ideas of the passage right? It is the same Greek word in both uses translated as all.

When doctrine requires one to reconcile clear, unambiguous scripture, something's definitely wrong with the doctrine.

[Billy Evmur]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.

That was about choosing the 12 [!]

Context bro.

So when you read John 14. none of that applies to you but only to the apostles ... that what you's saying?

In John 15 (like in chapter 14) Jesus is teaching the twelve -

Context -

Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.


Joh 15:15  No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Joh 15:19  If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

So yes, Jesus refers to His calling the twelve.

Nothing to do with our free will discussion.

If it had nothing to do with freewill why did you quote it?

Because YOU made it an argument for your doctrine there is no free will.

And you were wrong.

Abide in Me and let My words abide in you, only for the 12 eh?

From which of what I said do you conclude that I think or believe that???

Please don't do this kind of rhetoric, it's insulting.

When you say "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you" to apply to only the 12 yeh I find that fair game for an insult.

I said it because the epistles never say we chose God, they all say God chose us, before the world was begun. folks that "chose Christ" like the rich young ruler got turned away and the fella that offered to follow Him.

What about the multitude who wanted to make Him King when He multiplied the bread? Nor did we love Him but He first loved us.

Jesus chose the 12 out of the world, He also chose us out of the world ... you say you chose Him. Is there then some good thing in you, that is in your flesh after all? some prudence, some wisdom? some righteousness that you were enabled to choose Him ... something to boast about?

[Billy Evmur]

where in all the bible do people say "we chose to believe. we chose Christ!" Jesus said you did not choose Me but I chose you.
People believe because faith is imparted miraculously and it is irresistible

Would YOU leave your home if a murderous riot was happening outside? this murderous violence is in people and is only kept in check by God

The Bible is clear, "all" of mankind (whosoever), has been provided grace and faith. Been this way starting since the Garden after the fall of mankind, all through both the OT (examples of Scripture revealing choosing - Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 15; 30:19-20; Joshua 24:14-15) and the NT (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:11; ). To understand the NT verses about "being" chosen while other scriptures (OT and NT) that reveal our response by grace through faith is NOT irresistibly forced upon us, we have to account for God's sovereign foreknowledge and what He does (predestines mankind), with that knowledge. God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.


By grace, through faith. Mankind can either choose God or not to choose God. Jesus' sacrifice is for all of mankind, before even creation.

who will transgress? we ALL transgressed.
The bible says NOT all men have faith ... faith to be saved is an imparted gift "By grace are ye saved through faith and that a gift lest Slug 1 should boast."

The bible doesn't say "what He foreknew He also predestined and chose" it says "WHO He foreknew He also predestined."

Jesus said of some that God had shut their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should see and hear and understand and turn to Him to be saved ... what do you make of that?

Why in heavens name does it offend folks to be told God loves them and chose them in eternity to be His?

[Billy Evmur]

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"

Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?

Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.

That is an interesting question for I believe predestiny and election pertains to the church than to salvation, we are chosen to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace, to be God's people in the earth, of course we must be saved for that but it does not exclude anyone from being saved.

to be a city set upon a hill ... not to exclude any but to attract folks.

[Billy Evmur]

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"

Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?

Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.

Judas was chosen to fulfil the scripture "he who shared My bread has lifted up his heel against Me"

[Billy Evmur]

Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.

"All" doesn't mean "every one," it means "everyone one that God randomly chooses"

I guess I can make the Bible say anything I like as long as I make up the definitions.

Calvin did not believe in a BILLIONfold WIDER MERCY but I do. I don't believe just a few straggly sheep will be saved on that day while billions of human souls [goats] will end up in hell.

[Billy Evmur]

Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.

"All" doesn't mean "every one," it means "everyone one that God randomly chooses"

I guess I can make the Bible say anything I like as long as I make up the definitions.

You are the folks who make stuff up

Nobody says in the bible "I chose Jesus of my own freewill"

[Billy Evmur]

Is that what you think when you see the shootist at work in schools?

I see a slave of Satan

I see a person who made a choice. Just as the police officers who choose to put their lives at risk by charging into that school also make a choice.

so all policemen are saved ....

I believe in the human will, but I do not believe it is free. I believe in choice but choice is not freewill.

I believe in the WIDER MERCY. which neither Calvin or Arminius believed in.

[Billy Evmur]

Has anyone notice how boring and condescending the entire Calvinist argument is.

It also renders human existence irrelevant.

If God is choosing some people to "save", while ignoring everyone else, why bother going through the process? God could just have placed those people in Eden and not created the rest of humanity.

I believe in a BILLIONfold WIDER MERCY.

[Billy Evmur]

I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will.

There are many passages that are difficult for the Calvinist to reconcile and I've seen the explanations. Though, the most difficult to reconcile passage for the Calvinist would be Romans 5:18

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

All means all in both ideas of the passage right? It is the same Greek word in both uses translated as all.

When doctrine requires one to reconcile clear, unambiguous scripture, something's definitely wrong with the doctrine.

Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"

or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"

[Fenris]

I believe in choice but choice is not freewill.

My brain just fell out.

[Slug1]

"You did not choose Me but I chose you"

Is your use of this verse meaning for the salvation of those chosen, or for work to be done?

Asking because, Jesus chose Judas also.

That is an interesting question for I believe predestiny and election pertains to the church than to salvation,

Would you care to discuss that God predestines those who He knows will "never" choose to believe in Him? Meaning, predestination also includes those who will never be "the Church."