Is free will a failed concept?

[Fenris]

Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.

Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.

[Slug1]

There is predestiny and there is destiny, the first is what God determined in eternity that man should be, the second is what governs mankind AFTER the fall. God never ever predestined man for hell. God predestined mankind to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace.

While I read the rest of your post, I find many comments that oppose each other and you seem to point out something, then a sentence later, refute/counter what you just pointing out.

So, I will comment about the quoted part I left to focus on.

I cannot find in scripture a before and after the fall difference, in whether or not man has free will. There is no scripture detailing that before the fall there is predestination and after the fall, there is no predestination. You say there is "destiny" after the fall but honestly, I do not recall any scripture that supports such a statement concerning "destiny."

If I may ask, how is God's "foreknowledge" accounted for in your theology?

The reason I ask is because predestination encompasses all of creation once creation was complete and time (for creation) began. God KNOWS who will (in time) believe in Him and also, who will not ever believe in Him. He's predestined either for His glory.

Here is a verse in support of this:

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And this following scripture has much bearing on this topic as we can understand sinful mankind can (when being a vessel of dishonor) CHOOSE to turn away from sin and (in context) believe and receive redemption, being "re-born" into what is a vessel of honor.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
God does not MAKE people choose to believe, He knows who will choose and who will not choose, too believe.
edit: some fixing

[Billy Evmur]

The doctrine of human freewill is idolatry. Man is on the throne.

False. 

Are you a universalist?  Because according to your theology, since God is not willing that any should perish, then no one will perish.

Are you a sinless perfectionist?  Because according to your theology, since God makes a way for believers to escape temptation, then obviously no Christian can sin.

Are you sure that Jesus is God?  Because only by choosing to do the will of God can you find out if Jesus' teaching comes from God.

Are you a believer in only partial inspiration?  Because according to your theology, Joshua placed a false choice before the people of Israel.

Are you a double predestinatrian?  Because if you want to be Jesus' disciple you have to deny themselves and take up their cross and follow Jesus.

Does Jesus force his way into the heart of the unrepentant believer? 

Can a human seek God?  Can a human call on God?  Can the wicked forsake their unreighteous ways and behaviors?

Can a human receive Jesus?  Or believe in His name? 

Can a human choose life?

Can a human repent?

You made me chuckle there.
I am not a universalist ... It was NEVER God's will that any should perish and He is immutable that is He does not change. His will is that man should live. But we have to come to terms with the fact that it is also God's will that the soul that sinneth it shall die. So in whatever case we shall be in we will fulfil the will of God.

I am not a perfectionist although in God's reckoning we ARE perfect for He sees we who have believed in Christ through Christ. Having been set FREE, having the indwelling Spirit of God we are able to discern God's way of escape from falling when tempted. But Y'ALL say we were already free and having freewill you can live sinless, you are able to choose.

I am CERTAIN that Jesus is God, the only begotten Son of God = God for whatever the Father is the Son is also.

I believe fully that the scripture is God's word ... our understanding is imperfect. Joshua placed before the children of Israel two options both of which would result in God's will being done. Either His first and best will that they should live if they obeyed or His less happy will that the soul that sinneth shall surely die. And they had to choose, nor could they invent an option of their own, Choice is not freewill.

I am absolutely not double predestination. Only when we are set FREE can we consider discipleship ... Y'ALL say you were al5ready free.

God does never force His way into anyone's heart ... although He could. What He does is conquer our will which is not free as Y'ALL say but is set at emnity against God and in slavery to sin. He conquers us with His love, He subdues our will to His own so much so that we become willing. God wills IN US to do of His good pleasure.

No man can discover God though he seek Him. God must always reveal Himself to us. Nor did we love Him but He loved us.

Man cannot choose life because he does not know what life consists in. He [Adam] has chosen death and we in Adam have been sold into death. we have no choice.

No man can repent ... unless God pricks them in their heart .... He doesn't use a needle but a sword so much so that we cry out "brethren what must we do to be saved"? even if our experience is not so dramatic as that still that work must be done in our hearts by the Holy Ghost at the preaching of the gospel.

[Billy Evmur]

There is predestiny and there is destiny, the first is what God determined in eternity that man should be, the second is what governs mankind AFTER the fall. God never ever predestined man for hell. God predestined mankind to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace.

While I read the rest of your post, I find many comments that oppose each other and you seem to point out something, then a sentence later, refute/counter what you just pointing out.

So, I will comment about the quoted part I left to focus on.

I cannot find in scripture a before and after the fall difference, in whether or not man has free will. There is no scripture detailing that before the fall there is predestination and after the fall, there is no predestination. You say there is "destiny" after the fall but honestly, I do not recall any scripture that supports such a statement concerning "destiny."

If I may ask, how is God's "foreknowledge" accounted for in your theology?

The reason I ask is because predestination encompasses all of creation once creation was complete and time (for creation) began. God KNOWS who will (in time) believe in Him and also, who will not ever believe in Him. He's predestined either for His glory.

Here is a verse in support of this:

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And this following scripture has much bearing on this topic as we can understand sinful mankind can (when being a vessel of dishonor) CHOOSE to turn away from sin and (in context) believe and receive redemption, being "re-born" into what is a vessel of honor.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
God does not MAKE people choose to believe, He knows who will choose and who will not choose, too believe.
edit: some fixing

Oh that word BEFOREHAND why is it there brother? it is there for the vessels of mercy but not for the vessels of wrath. You know how careful God is with His words,

We are prepared beforehand, but the vessels of wrath prepare themselves. Nobody is born drunk or a full blown liar, a raper or a murderer these things if they are to be done successfully must be learned and practiced. We have the propensity, we have the sin nature. But in order to be successful in committing these sins we must prepare our vessels and practice.

That's why my opinion is predestiny and election only pertains to the church for discipleship "to be conformed to the image of God's Son... Chosen in Christ before the world began to be a people for the praise of God's glorious grace" [where was your freewill before the world began?] WHY?

the next verse tells us why. God has place ALL under sin that He might have mercy upon all. People can still be saved through our testimony. If we can be the candle that lights the room or the city set upon a hill, not exclude any but to be a beacon of hope, a place of refuge and succour to the lonely. the weary and the refugee. THAT'S WHAT PREDESTINATION AND ELECTION IS FOR.

I believe in a BILLIONfold wider mercy.

Timothy is interesting ... The house is certainly the church, ALL the vessels are in the house and belong in the house. Some to honour some to dishonour ... none to wrath or destruction after all the dishonourable are most vital to the well being of the house.
But if any want to be USED by God, gotta clean their act up.     

[Billy Evmur]

Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will. Our very ability to either obey or disobey God exemplifies the reality of free will as divinely ordained by God Himself.

Freewill if you tell it to any Jane or Joe means you can do as you please, you hear them say "if God didn't want me to sin He shouldn't have given me freewill"

Now we know that is not what people mean by freewill.

We do NOT have the ability to obey God, only if God first sets us FREE. We do not even have the ability to understand God, only if God opens our eyes to see, our ears to hear and our hearts to understand.

Y'ALL say you were already free ... that's what I am disputing.

[Billy Evmur]

Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.

Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.

I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.

[Slug1]

Timothy is interesting ... The house is certainly the church, ALL the vessels are in the house and belong in the house. Some to honour some to dishonour ... none to wrath or destruction after all the dishonourable are most vital to the well being of the house.
But if any want to be USED by God, gotta clean their act up.     

I brought your final comments to the top because I am wondering if you believe whom the scripture is speaking about, for dishonor, are born-again Christians? Or are they the tares that satan has lured to be amongst the sheep (wheat)?

OK, back to some of the remainder of your response.

Oh that word BEFOREHAND why is it there brother? it is there for the vessels of mercy but not for the vessels of wrath. You know how careful God is with His words,

When reading the lesson in the Romans 9 verses (basically the whole chapter), the context is actually informing the Jews that God meant to save Gentiles, as well as Jews from before creation, verse 23. So that is "WHY" the beforehand is utilized to focus on those who will believe (Jew and Gentile). But, my point remains, this does not teach that those who will never believe were not predestined for wrath before creation as we see in verse 21-22.

God's plan for creation, to include mankind was finalized before creation. We know this because scripture reveals that Christ's death was "before" the foundation of the earth. We can know this through Revelation 13:8 and 1 Peter 1:18-20. Those whom God knew would believe, they are predestined for righteous glory (to God) and those who will not believe are predestined for wrathful glory (to God).

We are prepared beforehand, but the vessels of wrath prepare themselves.

Brother, this quote I underlined is a prime example of your convoluted commenting. You are adamant that mankind has no freewill and yet, you are saying that mankind CAN exercise free will.

Gonna stop quoting here because you begin the rest of the post with clause of being opinionated. Plus the fact you continue to refute yourself, which makes discussion tough.

[CrimsonTide21]

I mean, we have passages telling us God doesn't want anyone to perish, and that salvation is freely offered to whosoever will.

There are many passages that are difficult for the Calvinist to reconcile and I've seen the explanations. Though, the most difficult to reconcile passage for the Calvinist would be Romans 5:18

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

All means all in both ideas of the passage right? It is the same Greek word in both uses translated as all.

When doctrine requires one to reconcile clear, unambiguous scripture, something's definitely wrong with the doctrine.

Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"

or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"

I think the argument could be made that the context of that passage was specifically regarding the Jewish leaders so that his pre-ordained death could be accomplished.  The passage quotes Isaiah.  Verses 20-36 addresses non-Jews, but 37-50 is regarding Jews.  The quote is from Isaiah 6 which is specific to the Nation of Israel.  That's just my thoughts on that.

As for your second verse, I don't believe that anyone can come to Christ in Faith without being first drawn, so no argument there.  I don't see how that concludes that people don't have the choice to reject his call, though.

[CrimsonTide21]

Reconcile this
"God hath closed their eyes and stopped their ears lest seeing they should believe and hearing they should understand and turn to Me to save them"

Is it your contention that this passage represents those to whom God would deprive salvation? If so, it completely contradicts John 3:16 (and other verses that say salvation is freely given to all who seek it). All scripture is inspired, so if passages seem to conflict, the fault lies with our understanding.

or reconcile this
"No man cometh to Me unless the Father draw him"

The companion verse of "No man cometh to the Father except by me."

The passages refer to those whom God foreknew and predestined coming to salvation by means of His Son. Those not foreknown and predestined never belonged to Him as believers to begin with.

John 3.16 does not say for everyone who seeks it, it says for everyone who BELIEVES. The quarrel we have is how did they come to believe? of their own freewill? or did God impart the faith and [made them an offer] they could not refuse.?

The wind blows where he listeth and ye hear the sound thereof, so is everyone who is born from above
Who are born not of the flesh nor the will of the flesh but by the will of God ... why do you continue to say it was YOUR will.

What verse are you referring to in your last statement?  Are you talking about John 1:13?

[Fenris]

I'm talking straight enough

No, you're inventing your own definitions for words. I'm out.

[Sojourner]

We do NOT have the ability to obey God, only if God first sets us FREE. We do not even have the ability to understand God, only if God opens our eyes to see, our ears to hear and our hearts to understand.

Y'ALL say you were already free ... that's what I am disputing.

Do we not have the same ability to obey God that Abraham had? Or Noah, or Moses or Joseph?

[Athanasius]

Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.

Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.

I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.

Ehhhh you really dodged the implications of Adam sinning from a place of freedom and haven't bothered to establish where in Genesis a reorientation of the species is depicted either (1) of a corruption of our nature as such or (2) how one comes to accept Christ from a place of sin - in your view - prior to being forgiven of that sin, and (3) if we suggest that God enables the individual then it really seems like we're playing sin nature plot armor with Aurelius "didn't know how to read Greek" Augustinus Hipponensis, where it's there until it arbitrarily isn't.

Of course you also fetter God given God's own inability to choose, but then that doesn't impact on God for some reason as it impacts on us, so... idk man you're just really not convincing.

No here argues for libertarian free will, by the way.

[Billy Evmur]

I'm talking straight enough

No, you're inventing your own definitions for words. I'm out.

's no such thing as human freewill ... no where in the NT

[Billy Evmur]

Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.

Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.

I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.

Ehhhh you really dodged the implications of Adam sinning from a place of freedom and haven't bothered to establish where in Genesis a reorientation of the species is depicted either (1) of a corruption of our nature as such or (2) how one comes to accept Christ from a place of sin - in your view - prior to being forgiven of that sin, and (3) if we suggest that God enables the individual then it really seems like we're playing sin nature plot armor with Aurelius "didn't know how to read Greek" Augustinus Hipponensis, where it's there until it arbitrarily isn't.

Of course you also fetter God given God's own inability to choose, but then that doesn't impact on God for some reason as it impacts on us, so... idk man you're just really not convincing.

No here argues for libertarian free will, by the way.

Adam was free so long as he stayed within the perimeters God had set him.
Adam swapped freedom for bondage
righteousnes for sin
life for death.

He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.

YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.

If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.

God first sets us free before we can repent.

[Athanasius]

Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.

Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.

I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.

Ehhhh you really dodged the implications of Adam sinning from a place of freedom and haven't bothered to establish where in Genesis a reorientation of the species is depicted either (1) of a corruption of our nature as such or (2) how one comes to accept Christ from a place of sin - in your view - prior to being forgiven of that sin, and (3) if we suggest that God enables the individual then it really seems like we're playing sin nature plot armor with Aurelius "didn't know how to read Greek" Augustinus Hipponensis, where it's there until it arbitrarily isn't.

Of course you also fetter God given God's own inability to choose, but then that doesn't impact on God for some reason as it impacts on us, so... idk man you're just really not convincing.

No here argues for libertarian free will, by the way.

Adam was free so long as he stayed within the perimeters God had set him.
Adam swapped freedom for bondage
righteousnes for sin
life for death.

He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.

YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.

If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.

God first sets us free before we can repent.

You're still dodging.

He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.

The devastating bit you're glossing over is that Adam sinned from a position of choice. But if we review the Genesis narrative, how many times are we told of Adam choosing God when he had another option, like Eve?

Oh, when we read of Adam being presented with a choice, he chooses to Sin? Dang.

Here's your problem: if Adam freely sinned, we need not contrive some notion of our nature's corruption, which is not supported in the Genesis account. We need not strain ourselves defending some ontic suggestion that, again, is not noted in the Genesis account.

We need only point to Adam. He was made morally imperfect, for he could sin—just as we do. It's a horror story. We can't blame our "sin nature" because it's "just" the nature God created us with—the one that Genesis does not say was changed or corrupted. It didn't need to be.

We choose to sin just like Adam.

YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.

No, that's not true. You're free to huff and puff about it, though. It's not true because I haven't really talked about "this" except to poke at the absurdity of the position. Imagine Adam sinned against God, having lived in the presence of God. Do you think we might have a problem if removed from the garden? Genesis says so, unlike all the ontic corruption.

If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.

Do you know that part where God said we would surely die, and then our species was kicked out of the garden and removed from God's presence? Do you know who it's up to at that point to restore the lost relationship and elevate the fallen species, etc?

God's.

What a nonsense "if / then".

God first sets us free before we can repent.

It's a real shame God doesn't just, like, do that for everyone. But I can appreciate that you don't see the problem with freedom coming before repentance.