Is free will a failed concept?

[Fenris]

I answered you, they were tricked ...

This is a total cop out. Anyone can sin and say they were "tricked" and so are not responsible for their behavior. And if nobody is responsible for their behavior, then Jesus's sacrifice was meaningless. Repentance is meaningless. "It wasn't my fault, I was tricked".

[RabbiKnife]

I answered you, they were tricked ...

This is a total cop out. Anyone can sin and say they were "tricked" and so are not responsible for their behavior. And if nobody is responsible for their behavior, then Jesus's sacrifice was meaningless. Repentance is meaningless. "It wasn't my fault, I was tricked".

I think I may have just wet myself, a little…

[Fenris]

Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.

What would even be the point of human existence in this scenario?

God creates humanity, then chooses to "save" some and condemn others to endless punishment? And this could somehow be perceived of as a benevolent deity? "Yah sorry that you're burning in hell for all eternity, it has nothing to do with your choices, I just decided to do that to you..."

[RabbiKnife]

Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.

What would even be the point of human existence in this scenario?

God creates humanity, then chooses to "save" some and condemn others to endless punishment? And this could somehow be perceived of as a benevolent deity? "Yah sorry that you're burning in hell for all eternity, it has nothing to do with your choices, I just decided to do that to you..."

There is a huge segment of Christianity that believes this…

Thankfully I don’t

[Fenris]

There is a huge segment of Christianity that believes this…

Right, Calvinists. It's bonkers. If I was a Christian, I would still find that movement morally repugnant.

Thankfully I don’t

In part because you are a very clear thinker, my friend.

[RabbiKnife]

There is a huge segment of Christianity that believes this…

Right, Calvinists. It's bonkers. If I was a Christian, I would still find that movement morally repugnant.

Thankfully I don’t

In part because you are a very clear thinker, my friend.

Side bar/. Learned something new about Jewish Seder traditions yesterday

Saw 2nd chapters release is The Chosen (season 5) yesterday.  It included a recitation of the Dayenu (?). “ it would have been enough”

Movie screen got so blurry….incredibly moving reminder of the overwhelming ways in which God has lavished His grace on His people

[Slug1]

Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.

Ya know, over the years in discussion with Calvinists, all will be done to avoid a "fatalistic" view of scripture. To the point, scripture is literally miss applied into their theology.

Concerning Billy's points (of his theology), I hope he approaches the point I made about Adam, whom at the time of his choice, is not bound by a "sin nature." Adam made the choice, of his own "free" will to rebel/transgress against God's will. After Adam's/Eve's death (spiritually), they began to live by their fallen sin nature as we can see very quickly, even leading to their desire to hide from God.

From that point on, all the scriptures Billy raises, apply to mankind. But concerning a point in time before any sin nature, prayerfully he can see how those verses don't apply (are miss applied) concerning Adam's free will choice when he had NO sin nature.

[watchinginawe]

Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.

What would even be the point of human existence in this scenario?

And thus fatalism. If one believed that God has determined all, they would say the point is in bringing Glory to God. I have problems with it but do exercise my apparent freedom in disagreeing with it. There is no consequence that I can see to a wrong opinion in such a system. I often am confused with others trying to change my mind about it, it seems futile, as if they were fighting against God Himself and what He has determined my view to be. Right? But then how do they explain their actions and beliefs? Maybe we are all just playing out our roles exactly as written. This is often characterized by we who oppose such a notion as humanity being "puppets" in a play. Anyone for "The Matrix" at this point?    (wow, we need to work on the emoticons available. No lol?)

God creates humanity, then chooses to "save" some and condemn others to endless punishment? And this could somehow be perceived of as a benevolent deity? "Yah sorry that you're burning in hell for all eternity, it has nothing to do with your choices, I just decided to do that to you..."

It is confounding. The stated coup de grace of the viewpoint, "All to the Glory of God". There are finer points of the argument that can be made, and it's probably best to not discard out of hand as preposterous. God's sovereignty is clear in the Bible. After all, God did favor Israel as a people. Jews were astonished at the Jerusalem Council of the conversion of Gentiles. This wasn't against God, this was provided for specifically by His sovereign will and revealed.

But again, if there is individual determinism in Salvation, then opposing viewpoints carry no consequence if wrong, you might as well believe counter as there could be no eternal consequence. It appears God allows it.

[Fenris]

Movie screen got so blurry….incredibly moving reminder of the overwhelming ways in which God has lavished His grace on His people

We will be reciting the Dayenu part of the Passover service at our Seder this coming Saturday night. In Israel.

[RabbiKnife]

Awesome.  in Eratz Israel, no less.  With extended family, I hope.

I was telling a friend of mine (who is going through some tough times as he ages, and even tougher as his wife now suffers from some form of dementia) about the Dayenu.

I told him that perhaps it would be a good practice if all of us that claim faith in God would write out and recite our own personal testimonial versions of the Dayenu for ourselves personally and for our families.

Blessings to you, my friend, as you remember the grace of our God in delivering the nation from Egyptian bondage, and for making the way for His ultimate salvation. 

Chag Pesach Sameach

[Fenris]

And thus fatalism. If one believed that God has determined all, they would say the point is in bringing Glory to God.

I fail to see how condemning people to torture for all eternity brings glory to anyone. If only someone was here to defend such outlandishness.

There are finer points of the argument that can be made, and it's probably best to not discard out of hand as preposterous. God's sovereignty is clear in the Bible.

One would be hard pressed to find examples of God revoking anyone's free will.

But again, if there is individual determinism in Salvation, then opposing viewpoints carry no consequence if wrong

I'm baffled that anyone would think that holding any viewpoints would somehow have consequence.

[Fenris]

Awesome.  in Eratz Israel, no less.  With extended family, I hope.

My son and his bride, who live in Jerusalem.

I was telling a friend of mine (who is going through some tough times as he ages, and even tougher as his wife now suffers from some form of dementia) about the Dayenu.

I told him that perhaps it would be a good practice if all of us that claim faith in God would write out and recite our own personal testimonial versions of the Dayenu for ourselves personally and for our families.

I think this is an excellent idea! It's why I'm a fan of codified Jewish prayer, so you don't miss out on the basics.

Blessings to you, my friend, as you remember the grace of our God in delivering the nation from Egyptian bondage, and for making the way for His ultimate salvation. 

Chag Pesach Sameach

Amen!