Is free will a failed concept?

[Billy Evmur]

Choice is not freewill, the One who gives you the choice is the One who has free sovereign will, if we had freewill we could manufacture our own choice with all the consequences that might follow on whether good or bad.

Man being a sinner would say to God "nay but I will do as I please and refuse to die"

God says "choose ye this day who you will SERVE" how can you think this amounts to freewill? we may not even choose not to choose.

Adam had freewill, we do not. We are sinners, we will sin. We will die, all the freewill in the world will not prevent our dying.

Death also became our shepherd.

If we neglect to wind our alarm clock we will be late for work, we'll get the sack, we will lose our home, we will starve.

Our whole lives are consumed with warding off death.

Aren't you glad that Jesus has become your Shepherd? praise His name.

Hey brother, when Adam made the choice to eat the fruit, he was not evil because he was not "dead" spiritually. Yet, a choice was made to transgress God's will. God will not express His sovereign will upon a man (Adam) and then, will that man to transgress against His expressed will i.e. do NOT eat of that specific tree.

Yet, Adam made a choice, while spiritually alive and not evil, to transgress God's will.

So we agree we can either do God's will and live or do another's will and die

Which means making a choice and expressing free will.

Did you choose to be born?

This is just childish. You're here. What are you going to do with your time? That's the whole reason for human existence.

Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?

You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.

You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?

[Cloudwalker]

Please, do be keeping our churches drama team in your prayers.  We are now working on the trial and crucifixion of Christ and the whole cast is feeling the emotional drain of the events we are "witnessing."  As some of you know actors live, and experience, the events we portray and it can be very draining.

[Slug1]

Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?

You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.

You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?

I asked about Adam... after reading this response, the question is now this.

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

[Billy Evmur]

Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?

You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.

You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?

I asked about Adam... after reading this response, the question is now this.

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

The answer is they were tricked into believing they had free-will, what negates the concept of human freewill? it is the dire consequences which must follow on from rebellion aqainst God. Death. But the devil deceived them into believing that they would not die.

Human freewill is Satan's master stroke it was his first deception and his best and it still is today. Truly it is idolatry, we read in the OT testament of good kings and prophets who brought about great revivals in Israel where false gods were put away and their shrines and altars destroyed. Then you get this sad adjoinder " but the high places were not removed"

The belief in human freewill is the top idolatry, the one we are most loathed to put away ... it is US in the centre, we are on the throne, everything depends upon our decision and our action.

Never mind that Paul says we were in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe [demons] until Jesus sets us free, slaves to sin. Followers of the Prince of power of the air.

When we hear the gospel, the gospel comes with power to set us free and faith is imparted to us whereby we believe and are saved.

Our wills are overcome and subdued. Indeed we surrender it, lay it down at the cross and receive the LORDSHIP of Jesus, we are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Then we attend bible class and learn all about freewill, it's backsliding.

I do not say we do not have a will, but it isn't free and it will always lead to bondage.

[Slug1]

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

The answer is they were tricked into believing they had free-will, what negates the concept of human freewill? it is the dire consequences which must follow on from rebellion aqainst God. Death. But the devil deceived them into believing that they would not die.

Human freewill is Satan's master stroke it was his first deception and his best and it still is today. Truly it is idolatry, we read in the OT testament of good kings and prophets who brought about great revivals in Israel where false gods were put away and their shrines and altars destroyed. Then you get this sad adjoinder " but the high places were not removed"

The belief in human freewill is the top idolatry, the one we are most loathed to put away ... it is US in the centre, we are on the throne, everything depends upon our decision and our action.

Never mind that Paul says we were in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe [demons] until Jesus sets us free, slaves to sin. Followers of the Prince of power of the air.

When we hear the gospel, the gospel comes with power to set us free and faith is imparted to us whereby we believe and are saved.

Our wills are overcome and subdued. Indeed we surrender it, lay it down at the cross and receive the LORDSHIP of Jesus, we are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Then we attend bible class and learn all about freewill, it's backsliding.

I do not say we do not have a will, but it isn't free and it will always lead to bondage.

I read your response... but, I'd like an answer that relates to the question:


Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

[Billy Evmur]

Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ... God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding? what if He with-holds the gift of faith whereby you may believe?

You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.

You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?

I asked about Adam... after reading this response, the question is now this.

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

One mark that the doctrine of human freewill is false is the fact that it is not once mentioned in the NT, only 3 times in the OT and then only in relation to freewill offerings, this is because God does not demand the return of gifts and blessings.

No apostle says "thanks be unto God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen of our own freewill" it's almost laffable. Always it HE who has chosen us.

Another mark that it is false is the fact that the church is brainwashed in exactly the same way folk are brainwashed to believe in evolution. You can't watch a nature program read a science book or magazine without evolution being stuffed down your throat.

You can't read a Christian book or article or listen to a sermon without the doctrine of freewill being stuffed down your throat, yet the bible says nothing about it.

By the way I am not saying folks are not saved ... but this I am sure of, if we are ever to see true revival The Sovereign Grace doctrines of Luther must be recovered and Arminius dismissed.

When you read the revivals of Wesley and Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards human freewill is very much in abeyance.

[Billy Evmur]

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

The answer is they were tricked into believing they had free-will, what negates the concept of human freewill? it is the dire consequences which must follow on from rebellion aqainst God. Death. But the devil deceived them into believing that they would not die.

Human freewill is Satan's master stroke it was his first deception and his best and it still is today. Truly it is idolatry, we read in the OT testament of good kings and prophets who brought about great revivals in Israel where false gods were put away and their shrines and altars destroyed. Then you get this sad adjoinder " but the high places were not removed"

The belief in human freewill is the top idolatry, the one we are most loathed to put away ... it is US in the centre, we are on the throne, everything depends upon our decision and our action.

Never mind that Paul says we were in bondage to the elemental spirits of the universe [demons] until Jesus sets us free, slaves to sin. Followers of the Prince of power of the air.

When we hear the gospel, the gospel comes with power to set us free and faith is imparted to us whereby we believe and are saved.

Our wills are overcome and subdued. Indeed we surrender it, lay it down at the cross and receive the LORDSHIP of Jesus, we are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Then we attend bible class and learn all about freewill, it's backsliding.

I do not say we do not have a will, but it isn't free and it will always lead to bondage.

I read your response... but, I'd like an answer that relates to the question:


Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.

[Slug1]

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.

"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?

[Billy Evmur]

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.

"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?

Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.

But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.

[Slug1]

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.

"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?

Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.

But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.

Billy, Adam was not a slave to sin before he freely chose to eat the fruit, the choice and the action's consequence (spiritually dying) resulted in him then (after the action), having a sin nature.

To keep mentioning about "our" sin nature avoids the acknowledgment of free choice that Adam made before, mankind had a sin nature. Thus, discussing this is difficult. Sin nature did not apply to Adam in making his choice. There is NO slavery to a sin nature before the fruit was placed in his hand by Eve.
I assume that when you understand we're discussing a moment in time BEFORE mankind had a sin nature, then discussing this topic won't be so difficult?

[shepherdsword]

The bible nowhere talks about human freewill, there are about 2-3 mentions in the OT only with regard to freewill offerings.

The bible mentions "whosoever will" which proves one has a choice in regard to salvation:

Rv 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.

But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.

I think you are a bit confused about the definition of free will. Choice IS freewill , as you can't have one without the other.

[RabbiKnife]

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.

"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?

Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.

But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.

Billy, Adam was not a slave to sin before he freely chose to eat the fruit, the choice and the action's consequence (spiritually dying) resulted in him then (after the action), having a sin nature.

To keep mentioning about "our" sin nature avoids the acknowledgment of free choice that Adam made before, mankind had a sin nature. Thus, discussing this is difficult. Sin nature did not apply to Adam in making his choice. There is NO slavery to a sin nature before the fruit was placed in his hand by Eve.
I assume that when you understand we're discussing a moment in time BEFORE mankind had a sin nature, then discussing this topic won't be so difficult?

A verse showing an ontological change in Adam’s nature as a part of the curse would likewise be helpful


Along with an explanation of how God can take a child of one month old to heaven without being either a universalist or a fraud since that child does not confess Jesus as Lord.

Perhaps Paul doesn’t use the term “sin nature” in an ontological way but in a practical pragmatic understanding of reality way.

[Billy Evmur]

The bible nowhere talks about human freewill, there are about 2-3 mentions in the OT only with regard to freewill offerings.

The bible mentions "whosoever will" which proves one has a choice in regard to salvation:

Rv 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.

But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.

I think you are a bit confused about the definition of free will. Choice IS freewill , as you can't have one without the other.

Naturally I believe you are the one who is confused. Freewill means you can do as you please, if there is anything which inhibits you from doing as you please then you do not have freewill. Admit that Paul teaches that we were in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe before Jesus set us free. Slaves to sin.

I have said before that whereas Adam had a choice we do not have a choice. We are sinners and we must die, are in fact dead while we live.

People can only choose if the choice is put before them, so the choice giver is the One who has free sovereign will. The truth is nobody can come to the Son unless the Father draw them.

The  crowds pressed in upon Jesus many with their needs many to hear His teaching, but some came to fight against Him.
Jesus said "My sheep know My voice and they follow Me" but of the others He said "you are not My sheep" He said "God hath closed their eyes that they might not see and stopped up their ears that they might not hear and hardened their hearts lest at any time they should turn to Him and be healed."

Do you not know that when that generation of Jews rejected our Lord they did so by the plan of God?

Do you believe that we were chosen in Christ before the world was begun? how then do you say it was your choosings and your decidings?

Having said all that I believe in a little thing called the WIDER MERCY, a BILLIONfold wider mercy. Something John Calvin would never have believed.

[watchinginawe]

...
But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.

We DO have a will but the bible says it is in bondage, a slave to sin and bound to death. Before we can be saved God has to set us free and this He does miraculously at the preaching of the gospel.

The argument is never framed very well in my opinion. Your post has an implicit definition of freewill that isn't stated. Freewill in your post is about salvation. Does man have a freewill in God's plan of salvation? Said another way, and much more to the point, the discussion can be divided into two:

Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.

Are all humanity's personal actions towards salvation determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will in Salvation, or God's plan thereof.

It seems to me that the latter is often conflated with the former. You seem to be arguing the latter and allowing a bound human will in the former.

The bound human will (bounded by ability, circumstance, nature, etc.) is characterized as "free moral agency". Thus, our next-door neighbor's wife might catch our eye. Then she comes calling wanting to borrow a cup of sugar. There is either determinism of God for what follows, good or bad, or not. I do not believe what follows is pre-determined and makes nonsense of God's teachings on the matter on what ought to happen.

But when we expand the argument to determinism in Salvation, then we have rightly confined the discussion, at least in my opinion. But I still disagree with you. lol