Is free will a failed concept?

[watchinginawe]

It isn't hard to conceive. Error in one's viewpoint certainly can have consequence in my opinion. For example, atheism. If the atheist is wrong, there is eternal consequence to their viewpoint in my opinion.

I think that most atheists are actually just agnostic. They don't know. In any case, I've observed that many Christians have this concept of "thought crimes" and even "improper belief" and I don't know that this is canonical. But then, I am not a Christian. Such ideas don't really exist in Judaism.

Well surely there is error in action, right? And if those actions are based on wrong viewpoints (like my religious zealot example) then those viewpoints have consequence, at least in my opinion. So, it isn't a thought crime, it is an action crime carried out from reasoned viewpoint in error and contrary to God's will.

I wanted to expand on the determinism angle here. Often people like me accuse those who believe in determinism, where God has decreed and predetermined all actions of humanity (call it predestination), of making God out a murderer, or adulterer, or whatever action he predetermined to happen. I don't believe God predetermines every action and sin and thus justifies the "free will" or really "free moral agency" of humanity. I also believe this is clearly depicted in Scripture, both Old and New Testament. God can predetermine certain individuals for his purpose (like Judas for example) where it is in their nature to do so and use them. These examples are called out specifically in the Bible and are not examples of how God deals with every human but specifically in certain instances according to His purposes. If it was a given that all actions of all humanity are predetermined, there would be no reason in Scripture to highlight where God does predetermine a thing as we would all know already that it is all predetermined.

[Fenris]

Well surely there is error in action, right? And if those actions are based on wrong viewpoints (like my religious zealot example) then those viewpoints have consequence, at least in my opinion. So, it isn't a thought crime, it is an action crime carried out from reasoned viewpoint in error and contrary to God's will.

You're ignoring the possibility that someone can have incorrect thoughts but do God's will in a positive way regardless. Take an agnostic, who doesn't know whether God exists or not. They can still give charity, help the widow and orphan, feed the hungry, clothe the needy, and so on. Does the fact that they're uncertain about God's existence detract from the fact that they did good?

Or what about the opposite? I'm certain that the Inquisitors had the highest motives when they tortured people into be believing the "right thing" (whatever that means!) They believed in God and were bringing the "lost into the fold." Yet I think they were horrible sinners. What say you?

I wanted to expand on the determinism angle here. Often people like me accuse those who believe in determinism, where God has decreed and predetermined all actions of humanity (call it predestination), of making God out a murderer, or adulterer, or whatever action he predetermined to happen. I don't believe God predetermines every action and sin and thus justifies the "free will" or really "free moral agency" of humanity. I also believe this is clearly depicted in Scripture, both Old and New Testament. God can predetermine certain individuals for his purpose (like Judas for example) where it is in their nature to do so and use them.

I don't believe even this.

God has determined outcomes, both good and bad. But He gives humanity free will to choose which role to take.

For example, the question has been asked, why did God punish the Egyptians for enslaving Israel? Didn't God already tell Abraham, centuries earlier, that his descendants would be slaves for 400 years in a foreign land? Weren't the Egyptians simply carrying out God's will? Maybe He should have rewarded them instead?

And the answer is very simple. It was God's will that the Israelites be enslaved. He didn't tell Abraham where because that hadn't been decided yet. It was the Egyptians who volunteered  to enslave Israel. They took it upon themselves to be the oppressors of Israel. And it was for this that they were punished.

Or take the events in the book of Esther. Hamas desires to kill all the Jews, unaware that the queen is Jewish. Her uncle, Mordecai, makes a plea for her to intervene, and he phrases it in an interesting way: He says "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?”

In other words, if the Jews are meant to be spared, God will save us. But wouldn't you rather be the instrument of His will? Maybe that's why He put you in this position in the first place?

This applies in modern times as well. The six million were meant to die, for reasons known to God and not us. But it was the Nazis who volunteered to carry it out, and I feel certain that their afterlife is quite eventful...

[IMINXTC]

When, as a toddler, I first learned of God, I became enraged and wanted nothing to do with the Creator. The thought of being destined to meet Him, let alone the notion of being accountable to Him tortured me, and I wrestled night and day.

I've since learned that most of the human race is doomed and that is through the wanten exercise of freewill.

I understood, at that early age, that a personal decision, to embrace the reality of God or to run from Him was incumbent upon me. I chose poorly, time and time again, with the full conviction that the choice was mine.

The same freewill that kept me in sin, is the
freewill whereby I embraced Christ.


"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

[Billy Evmur]

Not so fast, you can choose if God gives you that choice ...

No. We can choose because we have free will.

God is totally sovereign, what if He closes the eyes of your understanding?

There is nothing in the bible that leads me to believe that God does such things.

You say people can choose to believe but that is not what Jesus told those who came out to oppose Him, He said "ye cannot understand My words" He said they were not His sheep, He said their father was the devil, He said God had closed their eyes and stopped up their ears lest they should understand with their hearts and turn to Him. Admit that this is what the scripture says.

This is not holy writ to me. But even if it was, I do not believe that it means what you're saying. God takes away people's free will and then sends them to hell for all eternity for not believing? Any deity that would do such a thing is not worth worship. Rather, Jesus is using strong language to shock the listener into thinking about what he's saying.

You did not choose to be born ... what makes you think you can choose that more precious birth?

I do not believe in this "rebirth". It's metaphorical, not literal. To take it literally is like Muslims calling converts "reverts", as if to say, that everyone is born a Muslim and goes to another religion before "coming back"

Ye must be born again

[Billy Evmur]

When, as a toddler, I first learned of God, I became enraged and wanted nothing to do with the Creator. The thought of being destined to meet Him, let alone the notion of being accountable to Him tortured me, and I wrestled night and day.

I've since learned that most of the human race is doomed and that is through the wanten exercise of freewill.

I understood, at that early age, that a personal decision, to embrace the reality of God or to run from Him was incumbent upon me. I chose poorly, time and time again, with the full conviction that the choice was mine.

The same freewill that kept me in sin, is the
freewill whereby I embraced Christ.


"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

You were in bondage but God overruled your rebellious will subjugated it and made you to lay it down at the cross, Because God does this gently,He woos us [although He can mix it if He wants] people hardly know that He is doing it.

So we go around crowing that it was our choice, our decision.

[Billy Evmur]

...
But evolution is a lie and so is human freewill.

We DO have a will but the bible says it is in bondage, a slave to sin and bound to death. Before we can be saved God has to set us free and this He does miraculously at the preaching of the gospel.

The argument is never framed very well in my opinion. Your post has an implicit definition of freewill that isn't stated. Freewill in your post is about salvation. Does man have a freewill in God's plan of salvation? Said another way, and much more to the point, the discussion can be divided into two:

Are all humanity's personal actions determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will, a kind of fatalistic approach.

Are all humanity's personal actions towards salvation determined by God? This would be a deterministic view of human will in Salvation, or God's plan thereof.

It seems to me that the latter is often conflated with the former. You seem to be arguing the latter and allowing a bound human will in the former.

The bound human will (bounded by ability, circumstance, nature, etc.) is characterized as "free moral agency". Thus, our next-door neighbor's wife might catch our eye. Then she comes calling wanting to borrow a cup of sugar. There is either determinism of God for what follows, good or bad, or not. I do not believe what follows is pre-determined and makes nonsense of God's teachings on the matter on what ought to happen.

But when we expand the argument to determinism in Salvation, then we have rightly confined the discussion, at least in my opinion. But I still disagree with you. lol

lol 
God knows and foreknows the path we will take and at certain points actively intervenes and He is irresistible/ For reference read Jonah.

[Billy Evmur]

Did Adam choose to eat the fruit, or did God choose for him, to eat the fruit?

I answered you, they were tricked ... God forbade them and they rebelled. God is not the blame for our sin.

"They" rebelled... their own choice or God's choice for them?

Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.

But we do not have the choice, we are says Paul slaves of sin, we will sin, we must sin. And as consequence we are bound to die.

Billy, Adam was not a slave to sin before he freely chose to eat the fruit, the choice and the action's consequence (spiritually dying) resulted in him then (after the action), having a sin nature.

To keep mentioning about "our" sin nature avoids the acknowledgment of free choice that Adam made before, mankind had a sin nature. Thus, discussing this is difficult. Sin nature did not apply to Adam in making his choice. There is NO slavery to a sin nature before the fruit was placed in his hand by Eve.
I assume that when you understand we're discussing a moment in time BEFORE mankind had a sin nature, then discussing this topic won't be so difficult?

A verse showing an ontological change in Adam’s nature as a part of the curse would likewise be helpful


Along with an explanation of how God can take a child of one month old to heaven without being either a universalist or a fraud since that child does not confess Jesus as Lord.

Perhaps Paul doesn’t use the term “sin nature” in an ontological way but in a practical pragmatic understanding of reality way.

We know that Adam changed 180 % after his rebellion. His recognition of his nakedness, do you think it is referring to clothes? I think Adam was clothed in shekinah glory before he rebelled. He fled from God ...heartbreaking, people are still fleeing from God today, he turned and blamed Eve. All the love and trust was gone.

Man could scarcely be saved unless that love and trust can be recovered

[shepherdsword]

Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.

Let's clean all quotes except the one we are actually responding to. It makes the flow less confusing.

Choice is Freewill. You can't have one without the other

[Billy Evmur]

Choice is not freewill, it is a choice between obedience and life and disobedience and death. Freewill would be if Adam could say I WILL partake of the tree but I will not die ... that's what the devil deceived him into believing, that he had freewill in the matter.

Let's clean all quotes except the one we are actually responding to. It makes the flow less confusing.

Choice is Freewill. You can't have one without the other

Not having it bro. Not unless YOU are the one who designed the options with all the consequences that follow on from whichever choice you make.

[Slug1]

We know that Adam changed 180 % after his rebellion. His recognition of his nakedness, do you think it is referring to clothes? I think Adam was clothed in shekinah glory before he rebelled. He fled from God ...heartbreaking, people are still fleeing from God today, he turned and blamed Eve. All the love and trust was gone.

Man could scarcely be saved unless that love and trust can be recovered

I agree, Adam's life took a 180 degree turn once he rebelled. My discussion point however, you are failing to address. Adam made his choice BEFORE sin was in the world, before he was spiritually dead, before the 180 degree turn. All your discussion points and all the scriptures you raise concerning free will are about AFTER the fall.

Adam freely made a choice before the fall of mankind. His (Adam's) choice, not God's choice for him.

[Billy Evmur]

We know that Adam changed 180 % after his rebellion. His recognition of his nakedness, do you think it is referring to clothes? I think Adam was clothed in shekinah glory before he rebelled. He fled from God ...heartbreaking, people are still fleeing from God today, he turned and blamed Eve. All the love and trust was gone.

Man could scarcely be saved unless that love and trust can be recovered

I agree, Adam's life took a 180 degree turn once he rebelled. My discussion point however, you are failing to address. Adam made his choice BEFORE sin was in the world, before he was spiritually dead, before the 180 degree turn. All your discussion points and all the scriptures you raise concerning free will are about AFTER the fall.

Adam freely made a choice before the fall of mankind. His (Adam's) choice, not God's choice for him.

I answered, a long comprehensive answer only for it to be sent into cyberspace ... grrr mebbe I 'll have another bash later.

I do not blame God for man's sin I blame the devil in deceiving man into believing he had freewill. ... and of course man for believing the devil.

[Billy Evmur]

The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.

[Athanasius]

The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.

That's bullshit

[shepherdsword]

The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.

You are very confused about what free will is. Your position is so bad it has warped your sense of reality.

[RabbiKnife]

The doctrine of human freewill is the highest idolatry, it makes us co equal with God. God can do nothing unless we agree.

That's bullshit

In Suessian its bovinus excrementus.