BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: journeyman on June 23, 2022, 01:14:01 PM
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In another thread, Fenris said (some) Christians have been haters of other people and this could determine if that person was a real Christian.
Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?
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Matzoh tolerance...
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Of course. Claiming to believe X while living as if Y were true is a good indication of what someone really believes (Y, not X).
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Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?
No.
Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish, or if they follow a proper conversion.
There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.
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Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?
No.
Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish, or if they follow a proper conversion.
There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.
Jews religiously and genealogical, or one or the other? There's no concept in Judaism of total apostasy?
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Jews religiously and genealogical, or one or the other? There's no concept in Judaism of total apostasy?
A Jewish person can be a total apostate. But they're still Jewish. There's no opt out clause, not in the bible and not in Jewish law.
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Interesting, I suppose then that a certainly religion that speaks of 'reversions' instead of 'conversations' borrowed from that.
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Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish,
I've heard that. In response, one guy said it could be either parent. or just the father. His reasoning was that if it's only the mother, then some tribes aren't Jewish because Jacobs' 2 concubines weren't Jewish.
or if they follow a proper conversion.
Does a gentile have to follow some perscribed conduct or ritual to become Jewish?
There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.
Some people believe that of Christians also.
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I've heard that. In response, one guy said it could be either parent. or just the father. His reasoning was that if it's only the mother, then some tribes aren't Jewish because Jacobs' 2 concubines weren't Jewish.
According to standard Jewish law, it has to be the mother. Jacob's concubines were as Jewish as his wives were.
Does a gentile have to follow some perscribed conduct or ritual to become Jewish?
Being as Judaism is a rules-based religion, someone desiring to convert to Judaism must engage in a course of study to be proficient in everyday Jewish law. The course of study typically takes a year or more to accomplish.
Some people believe that of Christians also.
I see.
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According to standard Jewish law, it has to be the mother. Jacob's concubines were as Jewish as his wives were.
I never bothered to look it up, but since my last post, all I could find was that Bilhah and Zilpah were Labans servants. The Bible doesn't say if they were Jewish or not.
Being as Judaism is a rules-based religion, someone desiring to convert to Judaism must engage in a course of study to be proficient in everyday Jewish law. The course of study typically takes a year or more to accomplish.
Ok. So does this mean that, like Jews, converting gentiles don't have to live by what they've learned to be Jewish?
I see.
I should have clarified that certain proffessing Christians believe that a Christian can live without repentance. I didn't mean to suggest people of other faiths view Christianity that way.
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I never bothered to look it up, but since my last post, all I could find was that Bilhah and Zilpah were Labans servants. The Bible doesn't say if they were Jewish or not.
And Rachel and Leah were Laban's daughters. The bible doesn't say whether they were Jewish or not either. However, as all 12 tribes are given equal standing and equal responsibilities, one can assume that all of Jacob's wives were Jewish. Presumably by conversion.
Ok. So does this mean that, like Jews, converting gentiles don't have to live by what they've learned to be Jewish?
I am sorry, I don't understand this question.
I should have clarified that certain proffessing Christians believe that a Christian can live without repentance. I didn't mean to suggest people of other faiths view Christianity that way.
OK
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And Rachel and Leah were Laban's daughters. The bible doesn't say whether they were Jewish or not either. However, as all 12 tribes are given equal standing and equal responsibilities, one can assume that all of Jacob's wives were Jewish. Presumably by conversion.
Ok. Abraham ordered his servant to get Isaac a wife from his kinsmen, so maybe the whole family of Abrahams brother converted.
I am sorry, I don't understand this question.
I'm asking, why do gentiles who want to convert have to engage in a course of study to be proficient in everyday Jewish law, when to be a Jew, you yourself wiouldn't have to?
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Ok. Abraham ordered his servant to get Isaac a wife from his kinsmen, so maybe the whole family of Abrahams brother converted.
There's no reason to believe that from the text. It seems more rather that Abraham didn't want his son marrying into a cursed people.
Gen 24
Abraham was now a very old man, and the Lord had blessed him in every way. One day Abraham said to his oldest servant, the man in charge of his household, “Take an oath by putting your hand under my thigh. Swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and earth, that you will not allow my son to marry one of these local Canaanite women. Go instead to my homeland, to my relatives, and find a wife there for my son Isaac.”
Cross reference with Gen 9
When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.”
I'm asking, why do gentiles who want to convert have to engage in a course of study to be proficient in everyday Jewish law, when to be a Jew, you yourself wiouldn't have to?
Who says I don't have to? Of course I have to. Every Jew is expected to know biblical law and follow it.
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Of course I have to. Every Jew is expected to know biblical law and follow it.
He's asking? saying? pointing out? that a gentile who wanted to become a Jew has to be actively practising, while a Jew who doesn't want to be a Jew is a Jew regardless.
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He's asking? saying? pointing out? that a gentile who wanted to become a Jew has to be actively practising, while a Jew who doesn't want to be a Jew is a Jew regardless.
Just because some Jews don't live up to God's expectation of them under the Sinai covenant doesn't mean we should allow people to convert who will also not live up to God's expectation of them as Jews.
Mind you, one doesn't have to be Jewish to be good with God. In Jewish belief, a gentile who lives a moral life is fine by God. It's actually more difficult to get good with God as a Jew than as a gentile because there are so many more rules to follow.
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There's no reason to believe that from the text. It seems more rather that Abraham didn't want his son marrying into a cursed people.
Gen 24
Abraham was now a very old man, and the Lord had blessed him in every way. One day Abraham said to his oldest servant, the man in charge of his household, “Take an oath by putting your hand under my thigh. Swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and earth, that you will not allow my son to marry one of these local Canaanite women. Go instead to my homeland, to my relatives, and find a wife there for my son Isaac.”
Cross reference with Gen 9
When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.”
It seems Abraham didn't want Isaac to marry an idolater. Isaac does the same thing when he sends Jacob to uncle Laban, but later, Rachel steals Labans gods, so that's a little odd, because it seems Laban is also an idolater.
Who says I don't have to? Of course I have to. Every Jew is expected to know biblical law and follow it.
I'm not disagreeing with you. You said a Jewish person remains chosen regardless of conduct because of his mothers lineage.
Have you ever considered that from a strictly human standpoint, these stories from the Bible are contrary to justice. For instance, how fair is it to curse an entire race of people because of what one man did? Noah cursed Hams son for what Ham did? That's not fair, unless Canaan is as his father is.
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It seems Abraham didn't want Isaac to marry an idolater. Isaac does the same thing when he sends Jacob to uncle Laban, but later, Rachel steals Labans gods, so that's a little odd, because it seems Laban is also an idolater.
Umm everyone was idolatrous back then. I just gave you a perfectly good reason, backed up by biblical text, for why Abraham didn't want his son to marry a Canaanite. They are explicitly cursed, whereas Abraham and his descendants were blessed.
Why are you ignoring it?
I'm not disagreeing with you. You said a Jewish person remains chosen regardless of conduct because of his mothers lineage.
The Jews are "chosen" for additional responsibilities, not additional benefits. If a Jew doesn't measure up, they are falling short and will be judged by God, as the bible tells us.
Have you ever considered that from a strictly human standpoint, these stories from the Bible are contrary to justice.
It is God's word. God is not accountable to us for his justice.
There are plenty of Christians who have told me that there are Nazis who were devout Christians that are now in heaven, even as their Jewish victims are in hell. This doesn't seem justice to me either. But it is following the rules of your bible.
For instance, how fair is it to curse an entire race of people because of what one man did?
Why not? God blessed an entire race of people for what Abraham did.
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Umm everyone was idolatrous back then. I just gave you a perfectly good reason, backed up by biblical text, for why Abraham didn't want his son to marry a Canaanite. They are explicitly cursed, whereas Abraham and his descendants were blessed.
Why are you ignoring it?
I'm not ignoring it. I'm trying to make sense of it, because when God said,
I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11,
it didn't matter who their mothers were.
The Jews are "chosen" for additional responsibilities, not additional benefits. If a Jew doesn't measure up, they are falling short and will be judged by God, as the bible tells us.
This reminds me of the story Jesus told about hiring laborers throughout the day at the same wage.
It is God's word. God is not accountable to us for his justice.
I never said he was.
There are plenty of Christians who have told me that there are Nazis who were devout Christians that are now in heaven, even as their Jewish victims are in hell. This doesn't seem justice to me either. But it is following the rules of your bible.
I'm happy that you've examined the rules of my Bible. I'm sorry that is your conclusion.
Why not? God blessed an entire race of people for what Abraham did.
I've already shown that can't be for the reason you think. It seems the promise is on the faithful, because the Lord said,
Because they have not followed me wholeheartedly, not one of the men twenty years old and upward who came from Egypt will see the land that I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, except Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite, and Joshua son of Nun, for they followed the LORD wholeheartedly.' Num.32:11-12
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I'm not ignoring it. I'm trying to make sense of it, because when God said,
I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11,
it didn't matter who their mothers were.
That was the generation that died in the desert. It has nothing to do with this discussion.
This reminds me of the story Jesus told about hiring laborers throughout the day at the same wage.
Again, I don't see what it has to do with this discussion.
I never said he was.
And yet you asked how God's word could be justice.
I've already shown that can't be for the reason you think. It seems the promise is on the faithful, because the Lord said,
Because they have not followed me wholeheartedly, not one of the men twenty years old and upward who came from Egypt will see the land that I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, except Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite, and Joshua son of Nun, for they followed the LORD wholeheartedly.' Num.32:11-12
No, the blessing is on the people. Allow me to point your attention to Numbers 22:12. This is after the sin of the golden calf, and after the sins of the spies, when God decreed that the entire generation was fated to die in the desert. Balaam wishes to curse the Israelites. God tells him "You shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.”
I thought you were searching for information. I have answered all your questions. Yet you seem unhappy with my answers and just want to argue.
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That was the generation that died in the desert....
It doesn't matter when it was because the promise was to all of Abrahams seed, so that poses at first glance a contradiction, as the Jewish people who fell in the wilderness were excluded.
Again, I don't see what it has to do with this discussion.
Just an observation of how extra duty yields the same reward.
And yet you asked how God's word could be justice.
A question isn't a disagreement. It's a search for agreement I want to know why God thinks the way he does and when I find out, I hope I keep my hand near my mouth.
No, the blessing is on the people. Allow me to point your attention to Numbers 22:12. This is after the sin of the golden calf, and after the sins of the spies, when God decreed that the entire generation was fated to die in the desert. Balaam wishes to curse the Israelites. God tells him "You shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.”
I thought you were searching for information. I have answered all your questions. Yet you seem unhappy with my answers and just want to argue.
I am searching for information. I'm not satisfied with your answers because you seem to be focused on one positive aspect of Gods relationship with his people, such as Num.22:12, but then seem to avoid the fact that after Baal Peor, God killing thousands of idolatrous Jews seems contrary to his covenant with Abraham. It seems contrary, unless Gods covenant with Abraham was one of faith, which is taught to offspring, not inherited.
If we disagree theologically, I hope when Messiah returns, he greets us both in mercy and I believe he will if we have shown mercy.
May God bless.
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It doesn't matter when it was because the promise was to all of Abrahams seed, so that poses at first glance a contradiction, as the Jewish people who fell in the wilderness were excluded.
As per Numbers 22, they were not excluded.
Just an observation of how extra duty yields the same reward.
Nobody is talking about rewards.
A question isn't a disagreement. It's a search for agreement I want to know why God thinks the way he does and when I find out, I hope I keep my hand near my mouth.
Sometimes we don't get to find out why God does things.
I am searching for information. I'm not satisfied with your answers because you seem to be focused on one positive aspect of Gods relationship with his people, such as Num.22:12, but then seem to avoid the fact that after Baal Peor, God killing thousands of idolatrous Jews seems contrary to his covenant with Abraham. It seems contrary, unless Gods covenant with Abraham was one of faith, which is taught to offspring, not inherited.
The blessing is on the descendants. This blessing does not render individuals immune from the consequences of their behavior. Yet, they remain blessed. The generation fated to die in the desert was still blessed, which is why God forbade Balaam from cursing them. This is nothing mysterious, it's the plain text of the bible.
You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.
If we disagree theologically, I hope when Messiah returns, he greets us both in mercy and I believe he will if we have shown mercy.
Or comes the first time.
May God bless.
And you as well.
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As per Numbers 22, they were not excluded. [/quote]Then I'll just say they didn't get in.
Nobody is talking about rewards.
It wasn't my intention to angle this conversation that way.
Sometimes we don't get to find out why God does things.
That's true and sometimes we don't find out because we never ask,
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Pro.2:5
The blessing is on the descendants. This blessing does not render individuals immune from the consequences of their behavior. Yet, they remain blessed. The generation fated to die in the desert was still blessed, which is why God forbade Balaam from cursing them. This is nothing mysterious, it's the plain text of the bible.
Dying because of ones own sins is also a curse.
You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.
I understand that "bad things" happen to good people. Bad things happen to bad people also. It sounds like Gods covenant with Abraham had something to do with those who humble themselves,
If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob Lev.26:41-42
It would be terrible if someone thought God would remember his agreement with Abraham no matter how he lived, until judgment fell and it did matter.
Or comes the first time.
I'm grateful one Jew taught me by the rejection of himself, how terribly the Jewish people have suffered because of their faith in God.
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Dying because of ones own sins is also a curse.
Everybody dies. By your definition, that means everyone is cursed. Including Abraham.
I understand that "bad things" happen to good people.
I'm going to say this again, because you ignored it.
You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.
It sounds like Gods covenant with Abraham had something to do with those who humble themselves,
God didn't say this to Abraham. Why are you adding things to the bible?
If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob Lev.26:41-42
This is talking about exile. It says "covenant", not blessing.
Words, they mean things.
It would be terrible if someone thought God would remember his agreement with Abraham no matter how he lived
God's blessing to Abraham had no conditions attached.
I'm grateful one Jew taught me by the rejection of himself, how terribly the Jewish people have suffered because of their faith in God.
I don't even know what this means.
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Everybody dies. By your definition, that means everyone is cursed. Including Abraham.
My definition is, Dying in iniquity = Cursed. Abraham wasn't cursed because he lived by his faith in God.
I'm going to say this again, because you ignored it.
You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things.
To me, it means all of those things and much more, because the Holy Land flows with milk and honey and Gods' people are safe from harm.
Actually, I'm blessed by God daily and if he has more blessings for me in the future, I'm ok with that.
It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.[/i]
That's what Jesus has been to all nations. 😊
God didn't say this to Abraham. Why are you adding things to the bible?
I'm not. I said it seems that way. It seems that way because Abraham believed God. Abraham was "chosen" because he believed God. And Lev. says God will remember his covenant with Abraham...after repentance.
This is talking about exile. It says "covenant", not blessing.
Words, they mean things.
And one word leads to another.
God's blessing to Abraham had no conditions attached.
That's right. No law. He just lived by faith in God.
I don't even know what this means.
It means people who hate God will hate his children.
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My definition is, Dying in iniquity = Cursed.
The bible gives no such definition. You just made that up.
I'm going to make up my own definition. I think that "blessed" means the person has more than 1 billion dollars. But it has to be in US currency. So anyone who lived prior to 1776 could not be blessed by my definition.
This is fun!
To me, it means all of those things and much more
It means what the bible says. Not more than what the bible says.
Deut 4 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it
Prov 30 Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
But I guess you know better.
That's what Jesus has been to all nations.
Jesus was fruitful and inherited the land of Israel? Fascinating.
I'm not. I said it seems that way. It seems that way because Abraham believed God. Abraham was "chosen" because he believed God.
Abaraham was "chosen" because he was a moral person. Genesis 18: For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just
That's about his covenant with God. It has nothing to do with God blessing Abraham, which is a different matter entirely and based on (then Abram's) obedience to God. See Gen 12: The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing."
And Lev. says God will remember his covenant with Abraham...after repentance.
Yes, He will remember the covenant. Which is a different thing than the blessing, as I just showed you.
A covenant is a pact or an agreement. Words, they mean things.
That's right. No law. He just lived by faith in God.
That's weird, because Gen 26 said that Abraham did keep the law. "Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions."
It means people who hate God will hate his children.
A lot of people hate the Jews. Not just now, but historically also. What does that mean to you?
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The bible gives no such definition. You just made that up.
I'm going to make up my own definition. I think that "blessed" means the person has more than 1 billion dollars. But it has to be in US currency. So anyone who lived prior to 1776 could not be blessed by my definition.
This is fun!
I'm not making anything up. Deut.27 & 28 show what ut is to be cursed and why and Eze.18 speaks of people who die in their iniquity, so it's important to our Lord.
It means what the bible says. Not more than what the bible says.
Deut 4 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it
Prov 30 Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
But I guess you know better.
I understand that you don't think an agreement with God can also be a blessing. I disagree with you.
Jesus was fruitful and inherited the land of Israel? Fascinating.
Yes it is fascinating. He's expecting a return on his investment too.
Abaraham was "chosen" because he was a moral person. Genesis 18: For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just
No. Abraham was chosen because he believed God and his faith motivated his conduct, but Abraham wasn't chosen for his morality,
enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.Psa.143:2
And that's the man after Gods' heart. It's no different for anyone else,
Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: Deu.9:4
That's about his covenant with God. It has nothing to do with God blessing Abraham, which is a different matter entirely and based on (then Abram's) obedience to God. See Gen 12: The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing."
Yes, He will remember the covenant. Which is a different thing than the blessing, as I just showed you.
A covenant is a pact or an agreement. Words, they mean things.
I see Gods' covenant as a great blessing. I understand you disagree.
That's weird, because Gen 26 said that Abraham did keep the law. "Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions."
I was referring to the law God gave through Moses.
A lot of people hate the Jews. Not just now, but historically also. What does that mean to you?
It means Jesus was persecuted unjustly. So were the Prophets before him and Apostles after.
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I'm not making anything up. Deut.27 & 28 show what ut is to be cursed
Which says nothing about "Dying in iniquity". You just made that up.
and why and Eze.18 speaks of people who die in their iniquity.
Which does not talk about blessings.
What you did was take two different chapters about different topics, and juxtaposed them because it made you happy.
I understand that you don't think an agreement with God can also be a blessing.
Yes. Because the bible doesn't say that it is. Your imagination is not a substitute for God's word.
Yes it is fascinating. He's expecting a return on his investment too.
Even more fascinating.
No. Abraham was chosen because he believed God and his faith motivated his conduct, but Abraham wasn't chosen for his morality,
Genesis 18 says otherwise.
And that's the man after Gods' heart. It's no different for anyone else,
Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: Deu.9:4
Different topic, different subject, has nothing to do with what God said in Gen 18.
I see Gods' covenant as a great blessing.
But that isn't what the bible says. You are literally substituting your own thoughts in place of what God said.
I was referring to the law God gave through Moses.
Which it looks like Abraham kept.
It means Jesus was persecuted unjustly. So were the Prophets before him and Apostles after.
SO it's the Jews fault that people hate the Jews. Deep, very deep.
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Which says nothing about "Dying in iniquity". You just made that up.
Which does not talk about blessings.
What you did was take two different chapters about different topics, and juxtaposed them because it made you happy.
Yes. Because the bible doesn't say that it is. Your imagination is not a substitute for God's word.
Genesis 18 says otherwise.
Different topic, different subject, has nothing to do with what God said in Gen 18.
But that isn't what the bible says. You are literally substituting your own thoughts in place of what God said.
Which it looks like Abraham kept.
Which it looks like Abraham being blessed apart from said law makes blessing contingent on keeping said law unnecessary.
SO it's the Jews fault that people hate the Jews. Deep, very deep.
Trusting God isn't a fault.
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Which it looks like Abraham being blessed apart from said law makes blessing contingent on keeping said law unnecessary.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Why don't you address all the extra biblical stuff you invented?
Trusting God isn't a fault.
I have no idea what you mean here either.
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I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Why don't you address all the extra biblical stuff you invented?
There's nothing extra biblical about people agreeing with God and being blessed because of it. Nor is it extra biblical how faith alters conduct.
I have no idea what you mean here either.
Guess not, but I never even suggested the beating Jesus got was his fault, so you are way off the mark.
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There's nothing extra biblical about people agreeing with God and being blessed because of it. Nor is it extra biblical how faith alters conduct.
Abraham's descendants were blessed simply for being his descendants. You disagree with this, which is not in the bible.
Guess not, but I never even suggested the beating Jesus got was his fault, so you are way off the mark.
How about the beating others Jews got?
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Abraham's descendants were blessed simply for being his descendants. You disagree with this, which is not in the bible.
Being swallowed in an earthquake for worshipping a golden calf isn't being blessed by God.
How about the beating others Jews got?
I said the prophets and apostles also suffered because of their testimony.
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Being swallowed in an earthquake for worshipping a golden calf isn't being blessed by God.
You just made that definition up. Again with this. It isn't in the bible, anywhere.
I said the prophets and apostles also suffered because of their testimony.
And what about Jews who were neither prophets nor apostles? You're ok with them being mistreated?
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You just made that definition up. Again with this. It isn't in the bible, anywhere.
I was actually thinking of Korah, but both are examples of Israelites being cursed.
And what about Jews who were neither prophets nor apostles? You're ok with them being mistreated?
I don't believe anyone should be mistreated. I believe anyone who mistreats another person sins against God.
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You just made that definition up. Again with this. It isn't in the bible, anywhere.
I was actually thinking of Korah, but both are examples of Israelites being cursed.
OK, so again. You said that "Being swallowed in an earthquake for worshipping a golden calf isn't being blessed by God."
I previously said that when Balaam wanted to curse the Jews, God forbade him. God specifically said that "...you shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.”
This took place after the episode of the golden calf. Yet God still says that they are blessed. Weird, right?
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OK, so again. You said that "Being swallowed in an earthquake for worshipping a golden calf isn't being blessed by God."
I previously said that when Balaam wanted to curse the Jews, God forbade him. God specifically said that "...you shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.”
This took place after the episode of the golden calf. Yet God still says that they are blessed. Weird, right?
I don't think it's weird to be blessed for not worshipping an idol and being put to death for it. Nor do I think it's strange to be blessed for not creating a munity against Gods' prophet and dying in an earthquake because of it.
Of course Balaam was forbidden from cursing Gods' people himself, but he wasn't forbidden from teaching Balak how to induce the Israelites into bringing a curse upon themselves.
On a personal note, this conversation is exactly like conversations I have within Christianity, where people teach God chooses his people by faith alone, which they believe means sinners don't need to repent to be saved.
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I don't think it's weird to be blessed for not worshipping an idol and being put to death for it. Nor do I think it's strange to be blessed for not creating a munity against Gods' prophet and dying in an earthquake because of it.
Has nothing to do with what I just said, or what the bible says.
Of course Balaam was forbidden from cursing Gods' people himself, but he wasn't forbidden from teaching Balak how to induce the Israelites into bringing a curse upon themselves.
No place does the bible say that they people were cursed for following Balak's inducement.
On a personal note, this conversation is exactly like conversations I have within Christianity, where people teach God chooses his people by faith alone, which they believe means sinners don't need to repent to be saved.
No place did I say that God chooses people by faith, nor did I say that sinners do not need to repent. As I said in this discussion a while ago, Abraham's descendants were blessed simply for being his descendants.
I gave a definition of what it means to be blessed, and I posted it twice already. Here's a third time.
You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.
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Has nothing to do with what I just said, or what the bible says.
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deu.27:26
Amen?
No place does the bible say that they people were cursed for following Balak's inducement.
Yes it does,
And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun Num.25:4
he that is hanged is accursed of God Deu.21:23
Idol worshippers are under a curse no matter who they are or when they lived.
No place did I say that God chooses people by faith, nor did I say that sinners do not need to repent. As I said in this discussion a while ago, Abraham's descendants were blessed simply for being his descendants.
Yes and you believe Jewish people will continue in God' blessing indefinitely regardless of conduct.
I gave a definition of what it means to be blessed, and I posted it twice already. Here's a third time.
You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.
Replied to already.
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Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deu.27:26
Amen?
Yes, I uphold the words of the law to do them. And you don't. Doesn't that make you the cursed one?
And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun Num.25:4
Word doesn't necessarily mean "hanged". Only the problematic KJV translates it so. NIV translates it as "expose them" and the primitive root יָקַע means to "dislocate" or "be alienated". But sure, pick the one translation that proves your specific theology.
he that is hanged is accursed of God Deu.21:23
The verse is saying not to leave a corpse hanging overnight.
Idol worshippers are under a curse no matter who they are or when they lived.
Yet, weirdly enough, after the sin of the golden calf, God still considered Israel to be blessed. I have said this several times already.
Yes and you believe Jewish people will continue in God' blessing indefinitely regardless of conduct.
And what does that blessing mean?
You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.
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Yes, I uphold the words of the law to do them. And you don't. Doesn't that make you the cursed one?
I understand the transgression of the law. Crucifying an innocent man is transgressing the law, for which I'm truly sorry for my sins and have repented of them.
Word doesn't necessarily mean "hanged". Only the problematic KJV translates it so. NIV translates it as "expose them" and the primitive root יָקַע means to "dislocate" or "be alienated". But sure, pick the one translation that proves your specific theology.
Heb. הוֹקַע. This refers to [death by] hanging, as we find with the sons of Saul [where a similar expression is used,] “and we shall hang them (הוֹקַעֲנוּם) for the Lord” (II Sam. 21:6), and there hanging is specifically mentioned. Idolatry is [punishable] by stoning, and all those stoned are also hanged [as is stated in Sanh. 45b according to Rabbi Eliezer]. (Rashis'commentary)
The verse is saying not to leave a corpse hanging overnight.
Yes and why?
Yet, weirdly enough, after the sin of the golden calf, God still considered Israel to be blessed. I have said this several times already.
The cursed one was already removed.
And what does that blessing mean?
It means Abrahams' children will always be Gods' people, so a cursed person isn't a descendant of Abraham, regardless of lineage.
You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.
I understand why bad things happen to blessed people, because I understand why bad things happened to Jesus.
The Abrahamic blessing is on people who believe in God and therefore conduct themselves with the grace God shows toward people who do not love them, which Jesus perfectly demonstrated.
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I understand the transgression of the law.
You don't keep the law, though. You don't uphold it.
Crucifying an innocent man is transgressing the law
You mean what the Romans did?
Heb. הוֹקַע. This refers to [death by] hanging, as we find with the sons of Saul [where a similar expression is used,] “and we shall hang them (הוֹקַעֲנוּם) for the Lord” (II Sam. 21:6), and there hanging is specifically mentioned. Idolatry is [punishable] by stoning, and all those stoned are also hanged [as is stated in Sanh. 45b according to Rabbi Eliezer]. (Rashis'commentary)
Again, picking and choosing commentators and translations when you like them, and ignoring them when you don't.
Yes and why?
Because a human being is created in the image of God. The curse is leaving the body hanging, not the already dead person.
The cursed one was already removed.
The cursed "one"? One person worshipped the golden calf?
It means Abrahams' children will always be Gods' people, so a cursed person isn't a descendant of Abraham, regardless of lineage.
You might believe this, but it isn't in my bible and it isn't in Judaism. Abraham specifically wanted physical descendants. Not "spiritual" ones.
I understand why bad things happen to blessed people, because I understand why bad things happened to Jesus.
Has nothing to do with my point.
What do you think "blessed" means, in the context of Abraham?
The Abrahamic blessing is on people who believe in God
That's not what the bible says though.
and therefore conduct themselves with the grace God shows toward people who do not love them, which Jesus perfectly demonstrated.
Which is also not in the bible.
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You don't keep the law, though. You don't uphold it.
I just said I did, as Jesus taught it himself.
You mean what the Romans did?
I mean,
Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and his anointed, saying, "Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us." Psa.2:1-3
for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel Act.4:27
Again, picking and choosing commentators and translations when you like them, and ignoring them when you don't.
They're your commentators, you're Rabbis' and you're ignoring them.
Because a human being is created in the image of God. The curse is leaving the body hanging, not the already dead person.
So,
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is.....made in the image of God????? No.
The cursed "one"? One person worshipped the golden calf?
I was using "one" in a generic sense. The actual number was about 3000 (Ex.32:28).
The rest of your post is pointless, as I've already shown how a person who is Jewish can be cursed himself by God. You're unwilling to acknowledge it.
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I haven't been following this discussion. Let me know if I need to step in.
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I just said I did, as Jesus taught it himself.
Jesus didn't teach the law. Moses did.
Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and his anointed, saying, "Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us." Psa.2:1-3
This is talking about king David.
for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel Act.4:27
This is something that you believe. It's not a fact.
They're your commentators, you're Rabbis' and you're ignoring them.
You ignore them, except when it suits you.
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is.....made in the image of God????? No.
Yes. Hanging a human body overnight is sinful. That's what the verse is telling us.
I was using "one" in a generic sense. The actual number was about 3000 (Ex.32:28).
Oh. I thought it was everyone. Isn't that your big selling point?
The rest of your post is pointless, as I've already shown how a person who is Jewish can be cursed himself by God. You're unwilling to acknowledge it.
And I've shown how all of Abraham's physical descendants are blessed. You're unwilling to acknowledge it.
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I haven't been following this discussion. Let me know if I need to step in.
Only if you're going to make interesting observations. Because I like those.
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Jesus didn't teach the law.
Point to it.
Moses did.
They both did, only Jesus obviously kept it better.
This is talking about king David.
That's true, but Jewish sages also applied it to King Messiah.
You ignore them, except when it suits you.
I was simply pointing out that the KJV as you suggest, isn't the only quackendoodle version that believes the proper translation of a term is "hanged." I will say this. Our conversation could be a three stooges sketch.
Oh. I thought it was everyone. Isn't that your big selling point?
I never implied anything of that sort. I'm showing how the people who were left after judgement fell were blessed.
And I've shown how all of Abraham's physical descendants are blessed. You're unwilling to acknowledge it.
I acknowledge all people on earth are blessed by God, I'm not acknowledging being pronounced as cursed by God as a blessing.
[/quote]
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Point to it.
You don't keep it.
They both did, only Jesus obviously kept it better.
That's a point of faith and not fact.
That's true, but Jewish sages also applied it to King Messiah.
I'd like a source.
If they did, it would be the same sages who didn't think Jesus was the messiah. So they're quotable when useful to you and otherwise ignored.
I was simply pointing out that the KJV as you suggest, isn't the only quackendoodle version that believes the proper translation of a term is "hanged." I will say this. Our conversation could be a three stooges sketch.
We'd all have to be Jewish for that.
I never implied anything of that sort. I'm showing how the people who were left after judgement fell were blessed.
All the people were blessed.
I acknowledge all people on earth are blessed by God,
But God specifically blessed Abraham's physical descendants. This is the plain text of the bible. Why is that so hard to admit?
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You don't keep it.
You said, "Jesus didn't teach the law." I asked you to cite an example and you can't do it.
That's a point of faith and not fact.
Lol...I said Gods' people are those of faith.
I'd like a source.
Why have nations gathered: Our Sages (Ber. 7b) expounded the passage as referring to the King Messiah, but according to its apparent meaning, it is proper to interpret it as referring to David himself, as the matter is stated (II Sam. 5:17): “And the Philistines heard that they had anointed David as king over Israel, and all the Philistines went up to seek, etc.,” and they fell into his hands. Concerning them, he says, “Why have nations gathered,” and they all gathered. (Rashis' commentary Psa.2:2)
If they did, it would be the same sages who didn't think Jesus was the messiah. So they're quotable when useful to you and otherwise ignored.
That's not the point my friend. The point is Judaism regarded Psa.2:2 as referring to King Messiah.
This doesn't mean we must agree on how we perceive what Messiah will do, but it shows that even within Judaism, the rabbis' disagreed with one another. So please Fenris, cut out the nonsense.
All the people were blessed.
Maybe you're right. Maybe people who are being executed for worshipping an idol are being blessed. That certainly could be trure in a soiritual sense, because the death of the flesh is a good thing.
But God specifically blessed Abraham's physical descendants. This is the plain text of the bible. Why is that so hard to admit?
It's not hard to admit. I agree with it entirely. The world had been blessed by Jesus, the seed of Abraham.
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You said, "Jesus didn't teach the law." I asked you to cite an example and you can't do it.
You want me to point to an example of him not teaching the law? What does that even mean?!
You don't keep the law.
Lol...I said Gods' people are those of faith.
Which is...also not in the bible. Plot twist!
Why have nations gathered:
Interestingly enough, a quick google search leads to Christian sites and only Christian sites.
That's not the point my friend. The point is Judaism regarded Psa.2:2 as referring to King Messiah.
The plain text is obviously king David.
This doesn't mean we must agree on how we perceive what Messiah will do, but it shows that even within Judaism, the rabbis' disagreed with one another. So please Fenris, cut out the nonsense.
Yet Jews agree that Jesus is not the messiah. So again, a Jewish source is good only when you can use it for your purposes. Otherwise it is to be ignored.
Maybe you're right. Maybe people who are being executed for worshipping an idol are being blessed. .
Again, after the golden calf and the sins of the spies, Balaam was not allowed to curse the people "for they are blessed."
It's not hard to admit. I agree with it entirely. The world had been blessed by Jesus, the seed of Abraham.
The blessing wasn't for one person who lived thousands of years later.
God blessed Ishmael and his descendants (Gen 17) but not Abraham's? Have you read the bible?
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The blessing wasn't for one person who lived thousands of years later.
God blessed Ishmael and his descendants (Gen 17) but not Abraham's? Have you read the bible?
I don't know how you came to that conclusion. This pretty much sums up my view,
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” Act.2:39
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J man, you do know that a non Christian puts as much weight of on the NT as on the Sunday comics….
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Yes RK.
With people who regard Jesus as no more important than an atheist or comedy trios, it goes without saying.
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I don't know how you came to that conclusion.
So did God bless Abraham's descendants through Isaac and Jacob too, or just Ishmael's?
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J man, you do know that a non Christian puts as much weight of on the NT as on the Sunday comics….
He's just doing his thing.
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So did God bless Abraham's descendants through Isaac and Jacob too, or just Ishmael's?
I've been saying all along God blessed Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, along with all the Jewush people. I'll just refer you back to this post the next time.
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I've been saying all along God blessed Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, along with all the Jewush people. I'll just refer you back to this post the next time.
You could refer me back now. Because I can't find it.
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You could refer me back now. Because I can't find it.
Post #54.
For the record, I said Islam changed the Abrahamic blessing from Isaac to Ishmael.....and I didn't drag the Quaran into this conversation.....you did.
But I think you're right that in ways, Judaism is closer to Islam than Chrustianity, because Judaism doesn't believe the world was blessed by Jesus through Jacob.
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Post #54.
Post 54 claims that you said "God blessed Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, along with all the Jewish people", but you never said it prior to post 54.
For the record, I said Islam changed the Abrahamic blessing from Isaac to Ishmael.....and I didn't drag the Quaran into this conversation.....you did.
It's not in the Koran, it's in the bible. I even cited the source, Genesis 17:
God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”
Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”
Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”
But I think you're right that in ways, Judaism is closer to Islam than Chrustianity, because Judaism doesn't believe the world was blessed by Jesus through Jacob.
Also more strictly monotheistic. And both consider actions more important that faith.
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Christianity is strictly monotheistic, alongside Judaism and Islam.
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Christianity is strictly monotheistic, alongside Judaism and Islam.
Christianity believes in a triune God.
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Post 54 claims that you said "God blessed Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, along with all the Jewish people", but you never said it prior to post 54.
[
Ok. I'm saying it now. The Jewish people have been blessed by God like no other. I must qualify my statement by adding, until Jesus came. Since then, we're all blessed.
It's not in the Koran, it's in the bible. I even cited the source, Genesis 17:
God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”
Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!”
Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.”
I was referring to where the Quaran says Allah sent Abraham a dream about sacrificing his only son (meaning Ishmael in Islam.)
Also more strictly monotheistic. And both consider actions more important that faith.
I think action is the result of faith and I believe in one God.
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Christianity believes in a triune God.
A triunity of persons within the 'Godhead', not tritheism or anything approaching it.
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Also, the popular caricature of "faith" in some circles as being something wholly foreign to historic Judaic faith is a bit of a red herring.
Paul's use of the word "faith" always means not only a total reliance and dependence upon something believed, but also a practical outworking of demonstration of that faith by means of action. Paul has no concept of "faith" to mean "intellectual or mental assent" without accompanying works demonstrating the reality of that belief.
Just as James says.
Just as Abraham did. A work of righteousness without faith is just a thing done; it has no value about from faith.
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Paul said the law applies to believers,
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Rom.3:31
This is not to say Paul was in favor of having any body parts removed.
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A triunity of persons within the 'Godhead', not tritheism or anything approaching it.
This is how Christians see it. From the outside however it is less strictly monotheistic than Judaism. Which has no bearing on whether such beliefs are correct or not.
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Also, the popular caricature of "faith" in some circles as being something wholly foreign to historic Judaic faith is a bit of a red herring.
I would not say "wholly foreign." But in Judaism the belief is less important than the deed.
Paul's use of the word "faith" always means not only a total reliance and dependence upon something believed, but also a practical outworking of demonstration of that faith by means of action.
And yet the same Paul says that salvation is via faith. Which has two problems for the Jewish listener. Firstly, "salvation" in the Christian sense doesn't even exist in Judaism. Secondly, in Judaism it is the deed that counts. God doesn't introduce a set of 613 laws that exhaustively covers every aspect of human behavior only to say "but belief is what's really important".
A work of righteousness without faith is just a thing done; it has no value about from faith.
Not in Judaism.
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Paul said the law applies to believers,
Paul doesn't even claim that the law applies to himself. 1 Corinthians 9 To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), to win those under the law.
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This is how Christians see it. From the outside however it is less strictly monotheistic than Judaism. Which has no bearing on whether such beliefs are correct or not.
Christianity is as strictly monotheistic as Judaism is, and Christians have fiercely defended this against not only accusations of tritheism but misunderstandings of Trinitarian doctrine, to say nothing of non-Trinitarian theologies.
Christian discussion on the ontology of God (as presumptuous as that is) is nothing more than that: ontology. It is no more the suggestion that a human isn't a single entity because she has skin as well as bones.
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Paul doesn't even claim that the law applies to himself. 1 Corinthians 9 To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), to win those under the law.
It seems that was, until you read the next verse which says,
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 1Cor.9:21
There were Jewish students of Jesus who believed gentile converts needed to be circumcised to be saved. It's obvious Paul means he's not under the (condemnation of the) law.
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Christianity is as strictly monotheistic as Judaism is, and Christians have fiercely defended this against not only accusations of tritheism but misunderstandings of Trinitarian doctrine, to say nothing of non-Trinitarian theologies.
As you say.
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There were Jewish students of Jesus who believed gentile converts needed to be circumcised to be saved.
As Jews believe that converts need to be circumcised to become Jewish.
Paul still says that he isn't under the law.
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Christianity is as strictly monotheistic as Judaism is, and Christians have fiercely defended this against not only accusations of tritheism but misunderstandings of Trinitarian doctrine, to say nothing of non-Trinitarian theologies.
As the argument goes.
We have such concepts as:
- Monotheism: belief in one God
- Bitheism: belief in two gods
- Tritheism: belief in three gods
And so forth.
When we discuss the Jewish and Christian conceptions of God, we aren't moving from Monotheism in the case of Judaism to Monotheism-but-not-quite-but-not-bitheism-or-tritheism-either in the case of Christianity. What is under discussion is the one God of Judaism and Christianity. We would be warranted in claiming that the Jewish and Christian understandings of God are dissimilar - and that's to say nothing on the question of who the object of our praise is - but we wouldn't be warranted in claiming that Judaism is more "strictly" monotheistic than Christianity because, well, there are no other gods in Christianity.
I don't think it works either to claim that one essence with one person is more "strictly" monotheistic than one essence with three persons, as it's still one essence.
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I don't think it works either to claim that one essence with one person is more "strictly" monotheistic than one essence with three persons, as it's still one essence.
I understand that this is the Christian perspective. Again, outsiders view it differently. This may come as a surprise, but under Jewish law one is permitted to pray in a mosque but not in a church for exactly this reason.
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As Jews believe that converts need to be circumcised to become Jewish.
Paul still says that he isn't under the law.
Paul learned the meaning of circumcision, which is walking with our Lord. He found out that circumcision is meaningless without walking with God.
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I understand that this is the Christian perspective. Again, outsiders view it differently. This may come as a surprise, but under Jewish law one is permitted to pray in a mosque but not in a church for exactly this reason.
I'm not sure why it would come as a surprise as I've said myself that the understandings of God are dissimilar, but to the point, this doesn't lead us to a "strict" vs "less-strict" monotheism
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Paul learned the meaning of circumcision, which is walking with our Lord.
Using that mindset, you can ignore all the law.
He found out that circumcision is meaningless without walking with God.
We've already had this discussion. Circumcision as a physical act is commanded in the bible along with 612 others. This is spelled out very clearly in the plain text. For example
Deuteronomy 4 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
and
Keep His statutes and commandments, which I am giving you today, so that you and your children after you may prosper, and that you may live long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.
and
And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Deuteronomy 5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deuteronomy 6 These are the commandments and statutes and ordinances that the LORD your God has instructed me to teach you to follow in the land that you are about to enter and possess
Deuteronomy 8 You must carefully follow every commandment I am giving you today, so that you may live and multiply, and enter and possess the land that the LORD swore to give your fathers.
Deuteronomy 11 You shall therefore love the LORD your God and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.
Deuteronomy 28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth
Exodus 18 Teach them the statutes and laws, and show them the way to live and the work they must do.
Lev 18 Keep My statutes and My judgments, for the man who does these things will live by them. I am the LORD.
Lev 22 You are to keep My commandments and practice them. I am the LORD.
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I'm not sure why it would come as a surprise as I've said myself that the understandings of God are dissimilar, but to the point, this doesn't lead us to a "strict" vs "less-strict" monotheism
Why can't we just characterize a faith as compared to others? It doesn't diminish it. For example, Judaism and Islam are also rules-based religions. Christianity is a principle-based religion. In this vein, Judaism and Islam are strictly monotheistic; Christianity is less so because 1 is also 3.
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Using that mindset, you can ignore all the law.
Using that minset is the deepest respect for God and his law.
We've already had this discussion. Circumcision as a physical act is commanded in the bible along with 612 others. This is spelled out very clearly in the plain text. For example
Deuteronomy 4 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.
and
Keep His statutes and commandments, which I am giving you today, so that you and your children after you may prosper, and that you may live long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.
and
And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
Deuteronomy 5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deuteronomy 6 These are the commandments and statutes and ordinances that the LORD your God has instructed me to teach you to follow in the land that you are about to enter and possess
Deuteronomy 8 You must carefully follow every commandment I am giving you today, so that you may live and multiply, and enter and possess the land that the LORD swore to give your fathers.
Deuteronomy 11 You shall therefore love the LORD your God and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.
Deuteronomy 28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth
Exodus 18 Teach them the statutes and laws, and show them the way to live and the work they must do.
Lev 18 Keep My statutes and My judgments, for the man who does these things will live by them. I am the LORD.
Lev 22 You are to keep My commandments and practice them. I am the LORD.
I'm familiar with the passages you cited. They must agree with other passages of scripture, such as Jos.5:2-6, Jer.4:4 etc,
Those passages only mesh with those you cited from my point of view. Your interpretation makes them pointless.
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Using that minset is the deepest respect for God and his law.
Throwing out the law is respecting the law. ok.
Those passages only mesh with those you cited from my point of view. Your interpretation makes them pointless.
Doing the exact things that God ordered us to do is pointless. ok.
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Why can't we just characterize a faith as compared to others? It doesn't diminish it. For example, Judaism and Islam are also rules-based religions. Christianity is a principle-based religion. In this vein, Judaism and Islam are strictly monotheistic; Christianity is less so because 1 is also 3.
I'm not following - how does rules vs. principles bear on monotheism? And we can characterize different faiths, yes. All I'm saying is that Christianity isn't less strictly monotheistic than Judaism or Islam.
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I'm not following - how does rules vs. principles bear on monotheism? And we can characterize different faiths, yes. All I'm saying is that Christianity isn't less strictly monotheistic than Judaism or Islam.
"Rules vs. principles" is the same as "More vs. less monotheistic." It's just a way of characterizing religions being compared to other religions.
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Just seems like a strange hill to die on. It's less monotheistic. So what?
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Just seems like a strange hill to die on. It's less monotheistic. So what?
The 'so what?' is that it's not less monotheistic. Or said another way, so what if the Jewish conception of God is errant?
"Rules vs. principles" is the same as "More vs. less monotheistic." It's just a way of characterizing religions being compared to other religions.
It's not a good equivalency. If we were to talk about "Rules vs Principles" when it comes to moral reasoning, we wouldn't suggest that "principles" based moral reasoning is less strictly moral than rules-based moral reasoning. When applied to theism, we also wouldn't make the argument regarding monotheism. Or, we shouldn't.
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The 'so what?' is that it's not less monotheistic. Or said another way, so what if the Jewish conception of God is errant?
I wouldn't be surprised if a Christian said that to me. So what?
It's not a good equivalency. If we were to talk about "Rules vs Principles" when it comes to moral reasoning, we wouldn't suggest that "principles" based moral reasoning is less strictly moral than rules-based moral reasoning.
One might make that very point. So what?
When applied to theism, we also wouldn't make the argument regarding monotheism. Or, we shouldn't.
I don't understand your point. Different religions are different. So what?
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I wouldn't be surprised if a Christian said that to me. So what?
So depending on the context, you would either ignore the claim or defend Judaism against it, much like how you might defend the suggestion that the OT and NT have different topics, or you might argue for why Moses wasn't allowed into the Promised land, or you might suggest that the Christians who insert Jesus into every possible exegetical situation are misguided.
You might argue over what makes a person Jewish. Or should journeyman simply say, "so what?"
One might make that very point. So what?
Are you okay with making incorrect claims?
I don't understand your point. Different religions are different. So what?
Different religions ought to still be understood properly.
This is still a forum, after all. The "so what?" is that I'm engaging the claim because we're having a discussion -- right? We're not simply lost in the lala land of seminary correctness?
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So depending on the context, you would either ignore the claim or defend Judaism against it, much like how you might defend the suggestion that the OT and NT have different topics, or you might argue for why Moses wasn't allowed into the Promised land, or you might suggest that the Christians who insert Jesus into every possible exegetical situation are misguided.
Yes. And I am expressing an opinion. On the other hand, sometimes I will see something that I perceive to be wrong in some way and I just ignore it.
You might argue over what makes a person Jewish. Or should journeyman simply say, "so what?"
He has not said that, however.
Are you okay with making incorrect claims?
Perceiving something differently from you does not make me incorrect. Nor does it make you incorrect.
Different religions ought to still be understood properly.
Religions are perceived differently to their adherents than to those on the outside. I'm sure everyone here thinks my religious beliefs are wrong.
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Throwing out the law is respecting the law. ok.
You have it backwards my friend. After placing his faith in our Lord, Paul understood the purpose and embraced the law like never before.
Doing the exact things that God ordered us to do is pointless. ok.
No, but being circumcised and not doing the exact things that God ordered one to do is pointless.
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart...Deu.10:16
This is what Paul taught,
circumcision is that of the heart, Rom.2:29
and,
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jer.4:4
I'm not sure how you view unquenchable fire. In the NT, it depicts the return of Messiah on judgment day.
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You have it backwards my friend. After placing his faith in our Lord, Paul understood the purpose and embraced the law like never before.
He "embraced it" but he didn't do it. "I am not under the law". "Converts do not need circumcision".
No, but being circumcised and not doing the exact things that God ordered one to do is pointless.
Being circumcised is one of the things that God ordered us to do.
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart...Deu.10:16
A more complete quote provides much needed context-
So let's start at verse 12 instead of verse 16.
And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?
To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet the Lord set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations—as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.
"Circumcision of the heart" comes as part of follow all of God's commands. Not in place of following all of God's commands.
This is what Paul taught,
circumcision is that of the heart, Rom.2:29
But not the body, even though God explicitly demands that of His people.
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jer.4:4
I'm not sure how you view unquenchable fire. In the NT, it depicts the return of Messiah on judgment day.
I'm not going to quote the entire of Jeremiah 4. If you take the time to read it, you'll see that Jeremiah is warning his generation of the coming disaster from Babylon, should they not repent and do better. Nothing messianic about it at all. And we don't view the messiah as coming to murder more Jews, (honestly, haven't enough Jews been murdered in history for the crime of being Jews?!) but to bring us back to the land of Israel and usher in an era of world peace and service to God.
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So depending on the context, you would either ignore the claim or defend Judaism against it, much like how you might defend the suggestion that the OT and NT have different topics, or you might argue for why Moses wasn't allowed into the Promised land, or you might suggest that the Christians who insert Jesus into every possible exegetical situation are misguided.
Yes. And I am expressing an opinion. On the other hand, sometimes I will see something that I perceive to be wrong in some way and I just ignore it.
You might argue over what makes a person Jewish. Or should journeyman simply say, "so what?"
He has not said that, however.
Are you okay with making incorrect claims?
Perceiving something differently from you does not make me incorrect. Nor does it make you incorrect.
Different religions ought to still be understood properly.
Religions are perceived differently to their adherents than to those on the outside. I'm sure everyone here thinks my religious beliefs are wrong.
Heh.
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He "embraced it" but he didn't do it. "I am not under the law". "Converts do not need circumcision".
Being circumcised is one of the things that God ordered us to do.
A more complete quote provides much needed context-
So let's start at verse 12 instead of verse 16.
And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?
To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet the Lord set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations—as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.
"Circumcision of the heart" comes as part of follow all of God's commands. Not in place of following all of God's commands.
But not the body, even though God explicitly demands that of His people.
I understand what you're saying, but from your perspective, bad conduct isn't reason to bar a circumcised Jew from the promised land, yet it happened to all (save two) who left Egypt.
The Jewish people came to understand that the covenant God made with Abrahan was by faith, 1st that Isaac would be born (Gen.17) and reiterated as the reason after the sacrifice of Isaac (Gen.22), through whom his seed would come.
Furthermore, those Jews came to realize Moses (and later Joshus) circumcised the Israelites because of that covenant of faith made with Abraham.
I'm not going to quote the entire of Jeremiah 4. If you take the time to read it, you'll see that Jeremiah is warning his generation of the coming disaster from Babylon, should they not repent and do better. Nothing messianic about it at all. And we don't view the messiah as coming to murder more Jews, (honestly, haven't enough Jews been murdered in history for the crime of being Jews?!) but to bring us back to the land of Israel and usher in an era of world peace and service to God.
The Jews also came to know that unquenchable fire is synonymous with the presence of God. Many will perish in his presence on judgment day. None of them will be murdered.
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I understand what you're saying, but from your perspective, bad conduct isn't reason to bar a circumcised Jew from the promised land, yet it happened to all (save two) who left Egypt.
I didn't say that. Obviously bad conduct was enough to bar people from entering the promised land. That has nothing to do with their status of being blessed, because, again, Balaam was not allowed to curse them.
The Jewish people came to understand that the covenant God made with Abrahan was by faith,
I think you mean "Christian people" not "Jewish people". Jews understand that the covenant with God involves actions, not faith, and this understanding comes from the literal text of the bible itself. Do I need to repost the relevant passages from the bible again?
Furthermore, those Jews came to realize Moses (and later Joshus) circumcised the Israelites because of that covenant of faith made with Abraham.
God's covenant with Abraham was a covenant of action, not faith. Are we reading the same book here?
The Jews also came to know that unquenchable fire is synonymous with the presence of God.
I'm Jewish and I've never heard this. Where are you getting all these strange ideas on what Jews understand or what Jews believe? From Sunday school?
Many will perish in his presence on judgment day.
I rather think not.
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He accepts it and wants it. God recognizes his people and his people will folow him no matter what.
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I didn't say that. Obviously bad conduct was enough to bar people from entering the promised land. That has nothing to do with their status of being blessed, because, again, Balaam was not allowed to curse them.
Balaam is a strange character. Personally, I'm not a proponent of voodoo, but I do believe people can bring a curse upon themselves,
Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. Exo.20:23
Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen! Deu.27:26
I think you mean "Christian people" not "Jewish people". Jews understand that the covenant with God involves actions, not faith, and this understanding comes from the literal text of the bible itself. Do I need to repost the relevant passages from the bible again?
God's covenant with Abraham was a covenant of action, not faith. Are we reading the same book here?
Action follows faith.
I'm Jewish and I've never heard this. Where are you getting all these strange ideas on what Jews understand or what Jews believe? From Sunday school?
I rather think not.
I'm getting it from what the Messiah and his students said about the scriptures.
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Balaam is a strange character.
What an easy way to just ignore the whole matter. Every story, every word, every letter in the bible was put there by God for a reason. We don't get to say "well, that's strange, let's just ignore it".
but I do believe people can bring a curse upon themselves,
Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. Exo.20:23
Quoting this verse is interesting, because it begins with "Do not make any gods to be alongside me". Hmm.
The word "curse" does not appear in the chapter either.
Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen! Deu.27:26
Who upholds the bible's laws (that is, attests to their truth and permanence) and carries them out (Keeping them and doing them even today)? The Jews.
The Jewish people came to understand
those Jews came to realize
The Jews also came to know
I can't speak for all Jews, but I have come to realize that non-Jews who talk about what Jews believe or what Jews think tend to know very little about Judaism.
I'm getting it from what the Messiah and his students said about the scriptures.
That's fine. But it's not from my bible.
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He accepts it and wants it. God recognizes his people and his people will folow him no matter what.
Helloooo new person! Welcome to BF!
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What an easy way to just ignore the whole matter. Every story, every word, every letter in the bible was put there by God for a reason. We don't get to say "well, that's strange, let's just ignore it".
I didn't ignore it. I said the Jews brought a curse on themselves after Balaam wasn't allowed to.
Quoting this verse is interesting, because it begins with "Do not make any gods to be alongside me". Hmm.
I didn't make Jesus. He made me. 😊
The word "curse" does not appear in the chapter either.
That's why I cited Deu.27:26, which you omitted. God has a reason.
Who upholds the bible's laws (that is, attests to their truth and permanence) and carries them out (Keeping them and doing them even today)? The Jews.
Some do some don't.
I can't speak for all Jews, but I have come to realize that non-Jews who talk about what Jews believe or what Jews think tend to know very little about Judaism.
Then please don't speak for the Jews who wrote the NT, because they were born in it.
That's fine. But it's not from my bible.
It was to them. It's interesting though, how you seem to feel that gentiles "find Jesus in the OT" from their imagination.
Got a question for you. In your opinion, did the Jews who followed Jesus remain Jews?
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I didn't ignore it. I said the Jews brought a curse on themselves after Balaam wasn't allowed to.
But the Jews had sinned prior to their encounter with Balaam, serious sins, and he was not permitted to curse them "because they are blessed".
I didn't make Jesus.
No, you didn't.
That's why I cited Deu.27:26, which you omitted. God has a reason.
Deut 27 is not talking about the incident in Exodus, but future incidents. The word "curse" does not appear in the chapter in Exodus.
Some do some don't.
Some do. And no Christians do.
Then please don't speak for the Jews who wrote the NT, because they were born in it.
We don't know who wrote the NT. Even assuming it was Jews, so what? Karl Marx again.
It's interesting though, how you seem to feel that gentiles "find Jesus in the OT" from their imagination.
It's nothing remarkable. I too have an imagination and can find Jesus in the OT. Or any other religious figure I desire. That doesn't make it true.
Got a question for you. In your opinion, did the Jews who followed Jesus remain Jews?
Yes. There is no opt-out clause in Judaism. I can't speak for Jesus's original followers because it isn't clear to me what they actually believed, but Jews who follow Jesus are apostates and accountable for their behavior.
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But the Jews had sinned prior to their encounter with Balaam, serious sins, and he was not permitted to curse them "because they are blessed".
I don't think anyone who commit serious sins, yet is left alive, knows how blessed he is.
Deut 27 is not talking about the incident in Exodus, but future incidents. The word "curse" does not appear in the chapter in Exodus.
Okay. Only future Jews could be cursed as a result of their conduct.
Some do. And no Christians do.
I guess not the way you must.
We don't know who wrote the NT. Even assuming it was Jews, so what? Karl Marx again.
I get it. You just can't accept that your God is worshipped by the gentile world because of the Stooges.
It's nothing remarkable. I too have an imagination and can find Jesus in the OT. Or any other religious figure I desire. That doesn't make it true.
I meant what's interesting is, you think it's the Christians' imagination, but the Christian got it from 2000 years old Jewish manuscripts.
Yes. There is no opt-out clause in Judaism. I can't speak for Jesus's original followers because it isn't clear to me what they actually believed, but Jews who follow Jesus are apostates and accountable for their behavior.
Well, it's clear they thought of themselves as Jews.
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I don't think anyone who commit serious sins, yet is left alive, knows how blessed he is.
But you said people who sin are cursed. Now you say they are blessed.
You keep switching the definition of what words mean to fit your particular point at that moment.
Okay. Only future Jews could be cursed as a result of their conduct.
What does it mean to be "blessed" or "cursed"? You're using definitions on the fly.
I guess not the way you must.
Exactly!
I get it. You just can't accept that your God is worshipped by the gentile world because of the Stooges.
My view on this are far more nuanced than you think. But to tell me that "Some Jew said X, so now I must believe X" carries no weight with me. How gentiles react to something doesn't matter. It's the Jewish opinion that is binding on Jews.
I meant what's interesting is, you think it's the Christians' imagination, but the Christian got it from 2000 years old Jewish manuscripts.
As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when. Or where. It isn't even in Hebrew or Aramaic, but Greek, a language spoken by few Jews in the first century. But even the NT doesn't shoehorn Jesus into every passage in the bible.
Well, it's clear they thought of themselves as Jews.
But again, it's not clear to me what they actually believed. Jesus as the Jewish messiah, sent to evict the Romans, rebuild the temple, and ultimately usher in an era of world peace? Or Jesus as the gentile messiah, sent to be a final sacrifice to end sin for all time? Because the two aren't the same. It's the second view that prevailed in the Christian church.
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But you said people who sin not are cursed. Now you say they are blessed.
You keep switching the definition of what words mean to fit your particular point at that moment.
Everyone on earth is blessed by God,
And God blessed them.....Gen.1:28
What does it mean to be "blessed" or "cursed"? You're using definitions on the fly.
The effects of Gods' pleasure and displeasure are described in Deu.28
My view on this are far more nuanced than you think. But to tell me that "Some Jew said X, so now I must believe X" carries no weight with me. How gentiles react to something doesn't matter. It's the Jewish opinion that is binding on Jews.
That's ok. The NTs says,
We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act.5:29
As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when. Or where. It isn't even in Hebrew or Aramaic, but Greek, a language spoken by few Jews in the first century. But even the NT doesn't shoehorn Jesus into every passage in the bible.
I don't play the, "How do scholars know" game. That's not how anyone can know anyway.
But again, it's not clear to me what they actually believed. Jesus as the Jewish messiah, sent to evict the Romans, rebuild the temple, and ultimately usher in an era of world peace? Or Jesus as the gentile messiah, sent to be a final sacrifice to end sin for all time? Because the two aren't the same. It's the second view that prevailed in the Christian church.
Yes they are the same, because the Messiah warned that he would evict sinners who refused to repent of their sins. He gives all people an opportunity. Why? Because that's the way his Father is.
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Everyone on earth is blessed by God,
And God blessed them.....Gen.1:28
Oh, so now everyone is blessed. How wonderful!
The effects of Gods' pleasure and displeasure are described in Deu.28
But this has nothing to do with Genesis 12. Or Genesis 1 as you handily mention above.
That's ok. The NTs says,
We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act.5:29
But what does this mean? You're telling me that I should believe the NT. But you're a person, not God. Wouldn't listening to you be listening to a man and not God?
I don't play the, "How do scholars know" game.
If our eternal soul is at stake, it seems to me it should be very important to weigh the evidence carefully.
Yes they are the same,
They are very clearly not the same.
Listen, you can tell me that you believe the Jewish concept of the messiah is wrong. But you can't tell me that it isn't different from what Christians believe, because it very clearly is not the same thing.
because the Messiah warned that he would evict sinners who refused to repent of their sins.
But the messiah's job isn't to evict sinners.
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Oh, so now everyone is blessed. How wonderful!
Yes it is, but many don't believe every good thing they have is blessing from God.
But this has nothing to do with Genesis 12. Or Genesis 1 as you handily mention above.
Gen.12 has everything to do with God blessing everyone on earth, because the Messiah, Abrahams descendant, teaches the world about God and nobody knows God better than Jesus.
But what does this mean? You're telling me that I should believe the NT. But you're a person, not God. Wouldn't listening to you be listening to a man and not God?
It would be if I was speakinh from my own imagination, but God chose to speak to mankind through the Jewish people.
If our eternal soul is at stake, it seems to me it should be very important to weigh the evidence carefully.
I agree.
My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;...Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Pro.2:1,5
They are very clearly not the same.
Listen, you can tell me that you believe the Jewish concept of the messiah is wrong. But you can't tell me that it isn't different from what Christians believe, because it very clearly is not the same thing.
The Jewish concept with respect to how the Messiah will build Gods' Temple and bring peace to mankind isn't wrong. He taught the Temple where God dwells is within the hearts of his people and he gives us great peace.
But the messiah's job isn't to evict sinners.
That's what the Romans must have thought when they mocked him, but like many, they mistook his great love and patience toward people who despised him, for impotance.
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Yes it is, but many don't believe every good thing they have is blessing from God.
But it doesn't matter. They're still blessed.
Gen.12 has everything to do with God blessing everyone on earth, because the Messiah, Abrahams descendant, teaches the world about God and nobody knows God better than Jesus.
Neither Genesis 1 not Gensis 12 have anything to do with Jesus.
You know the game? Whack a mole? That's what this is. Every time I say something, you change the subject.
It would be if I was speakinh from my own imagination, but God chose to speak to mankind through the Jewish people.
I'm a Jewish person. Why aren't you listening to me?
I agree.
My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;...Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Pro.2:1,5
Ecclesiastes 12 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
The Jewish concept with respect to how the Messiah will build Gods' Temple and bring peace to mankind isn't wrong.
Again, Mr whack a amole, the Jewish and Christian concept of the messiah are not the same. You don't even believe that there will be another temple in Jerusalem, so what are you talking about?
That's what the Romans must have thought when they mocked him, but like many, they mistook his great love and patience toward people who despised him, for impotance.
Which has nothing to do with evicting sinners. Whack a mole x3
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Neither Genesis 1 not Gensis 12 have anything to do with Jesus.
Well, Jesus is God so...
:)
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Well, Jesus is God so...
I was referring to the blessings given to all of mankind generally (Gen 1) and to Abram (not yet Abraham!) and his descendants specifically (Gen 12).
Secondarily, Christians believe that Jesus is God, but it isn't an empirical fact.
Thirdly, that still doesn't justify shoehorning him into every single biblical verse, something that even the NT authors did not do.
Fourth, I'm glad to see greater forum participation by the old members that I haven't seen in a while. How are ya?!
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Secondarily, Christians believe that Jesus is God, but it isn't an empirical fact.
So what? You're on a Christian forum.
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So what? You're on a Christian forum.
And we discuss our beliefs. Which are not the same as facts. Heck, you guys can't all agree amongst yourselves on some matters.
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And we discuss our beliefs. Which are not the same as facts. Heck, you guys can't all agree amongst yourselves on some matters.
And?
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So what? You're on a Christian forum.
And we discuss our beliefs. Which are not the same as facts. Heck, you guys can't all agree amongst yourselves on some matters.
Ok
The irony of that is funny!
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First, I've been reading most of the threads and posts here even though I haven't responded yet. The "Christians find Jesus in every verse." ( or whatever the title is ) was on my mind when I posted. Hence the smiley face at the end of my post.
Second, (hey this is fun ;D) jesting or not though, the Bible is all about God and His dealings/relationship with His creations.
Christians believe that Jesus is God just as Jews believe that God is God. Empirical fact? It's all about faith as you well know, eh?
So, yeah, no difference in my eyes. But, no, I don't find Jesus in every verse. Which is weird.
Good to read others and your posts. I may not agree with you on certain things obviously, but I love the way you phrase things and you've always made me think and question. That's a very good thing.
I've been great actually. Thanks for asking.
I miss the old Gene Wilder avatar.
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Good to read others and your posts. I may not agree with you on certain things obviously, but I love the way you phrase things and you've always made me think and question. That's a very good thing.
I've been great actually. Thanks for asking.
:)
I miss the old Gene Wilder avatar.
RK started talking about the "Jewish space laser" so I used this avatar. I'll switch back at some point.
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But it doesn't matter. They're still blessed.
Ok. I disagree for the reason cited.
Neither Genesis 1 not Gensis 12 have anything to do with Jesus.
I wasn't referring to Gen.1 as a reference to Jesus, but now that you mention it, I read a commentary on that chapter years ago by a rabbi (can't remember his name) who said Gen.1 contains all of human hustory from beginning to end. His reasoning was profound. Anyway in that respect, yes it does refer to Jesus.
Gen.12 says Jewish people will be a blessing to the world and since the Messiah brings peace to the world, he must be at least as important as the Jewish person who invented flex straw.
You know the game? Whack a mole? That's what this is. Every time I say something, you change the subject.
The subject is, Gen.12 says, Abrahan and his descendants will be a blessing to gentiles. I understand your belief that God was speaking of every Jew who has ever lived that was an asset to humanity, except for the Messiah.
I'm a Jewish person. Why aren't you listening to me?
I am listening to you. You have no more regard for Jesus than Karl Marx.
Ecclesiastes 12 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
Or don't and be blessed forever anyway?
Again, Mr whack a amole, the Jewish and Christian concept of the messiah are not the same. You don't even believe that there will be another temple in Jerusalem, so what are you talking about?
I meant the concepts, not the particulars. Yes, I don't believe God will inhabit a man made temple in the future, or that everyone on earth as we now know it will live in peace.
Which has nothing to do with evicting sinners. Whack a mole x3
I know you don't believe the Messiah will vengence against the unrepentant who sinned against him. I'm sure others think it's whack a mole too.
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I wasn't referring to Gen.1 as a reference to Jesus
I'm a bit overtired here as I've just returned from an amazing two week trip to Israel. While my thoughts are fresh I'll jot them down. You're arguing over whether Jesus fulfilled some prophecy or other when the literal, actual words of the prophets is being fulfilled today in the holy land. Jewish exiles have been gathered from over 100 lands back to Israel, as the prophets said would happen all over Isaiah and Ezekiel and Amos and on and on. The country is an economic and technological and military superpower. It's also the only first world country in the world with a positive birthrate. These are the blessings as promised by God in Lev 26 and Deut 28. If the literal fulfillment of biblical promises is not enough for you then we're just wasting time here.
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Why would you think that God fulfilling His promises to continue to bless Israel and Jesus fulfilling prophecy, and actually being God, can't both be true?
One doesn't cancel out the other in my and most Christians minds.
I know that you don't believe that Jesus is God or any of the NT writings and I'm not foolish enough to believe that I'll convince you otherwise.
Just saying: This is OUR perspective and wholehearted belief.
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Why would you think that God fulfilling His promises to continue to bless Israel and Jesus fulfilling prophecy, and actually being God, can't both be true?
At most one of us is right. (The possibility exists that we're both wrong, of course. Maybe the Muslims are right. Or the followers of Cthulhu. But I digress...) Either Jesus is God and one must accept his sacrifice as atoning for the sins of mankind, or he isn't. Similarly, either God's covenant with national Israel at Sinai as a specific people to whom the laws of the bible applies and remains in effect, or it does not. I don't see how one threads the needle that "actually we're all correct".
My son went to a study program for a year after high school (as many religious Jews do) and was so enthralled with the experience that he stayed and became a citizen. Because of Covid, we were not able to see what led him to that outcome. Until this trip. We spent time at his school. It's in a Yishuv (in English one would call it a "settlement" but that's a loaded term so I'm not using it.) There are several thousand people living there, all around the school which is also the community center. They study bible from early morning to late at night; The books of Moses, the prophets, the Mishna, the Talmud, Midrash, Jewish law, philosophy, theology, and so on. It has an almost fairy tale feeling to it. The energy there is so warm and so positive, I've never experienced anything like it in my life. There's no analogue in this country, or indeed in any other.
If Jews are correct, it's an intensely holy and spiritual place. It certainly felt that way to me.
If Christians are right, it's all a trivial exercise.
One doesn't cancel out the other in my and most Christians minds.
I wouldn't even say that a majority of the people in this forum would agree with you. Let alone in Protestantism and certainly in Catholicism which is much more supercessionist.
I know that you don't believe that Jesus is God or any of the NT writings and I'm not foolish enough to believe that I'll convince you otherwise.
I'm not trying to convince anyone here otherwise.
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At most one of us is right. (The possibility exists that we're both wrong, of course.)
I agree.
I don't see how one threads the needle that "actually we're all correct".
Me either.
My son went to a study program for a year after high school (as many religious Jews do) and was so enthralled with the experience that he stayed and became a citizen.
I think that's beautiful man. Awesome.
If Jews are correct, it's an intensely holy and spiritual place. It certainly felt that way to me.
If Christians are right, it's all a trivial exercise.
I personally believe that God judges our hearts and our love for Him and others. I guess we'll find out on judgement day. Which you don't is actually think is a thing. ;D
I wouldn't even say that a majority of the people in this forum would agree with you. Let alone in Protestantism and certainly in Catholicism which is much more supercessionist.
Maybe you're right and I should have said most of the Christians I know and have known personally.
But, I think you would be surprised.
I'm not trying to convince anyone here otherwise.
I know.
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I wasn't referring to Gen.1 as a reference to Jesus
I'm a bit overtired here as I've just returned from an amazing two week trip to Israel. While my thoughts are fresh I'll jot them down. You're arguing over whether Jesus fulfilled some prophecy or other when the literal, actual words of the prophets is being fulfilled today in the holy land. Jewish exiles have been gathered from over 100 lands back to Israel, as the prophets said would happen all over Isaiah and Ezekiel and Amos and on and on. The country is an economic and technological and military superpower. It's also the only first world country in the world with a positive birthrate. These are the blessings as promised by God in Lev 26 and Deut 28. If the literal fulfillment of biblical promises is not enough for you then we're just wasting time here.
I see someone who can feed thiusands with little and someone who defeated death as an economic and military Superpower. Glad ya had a nice trip. Other than that, we are wasting our time.
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I see someone who can feed thiusands with little and someone who defeated death
Which has nothing to do with the initial topic. Or Judaism. Or messianic prophecy. Or God's blessings. It's important to you, personally, so you bring it up again and again. But it contributes nothing to the discussion and means nothing to me.
I answered your initial question on the first page. But it wasn't the answer that you were looking for. I suppose you think that Jews shouldn't get to decide who is Jewish. Maybe Christians should decide that. Or maybe you personally should decide. Yes, that's probably it.
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Which has nothing to do with the initial topic. Or Judaism. Or messianic prophecy. Or God's blessings. It's important to you, personally, so you bring it up again and again. But it contributes nothing to the discussion and means nothing to me.
I just wondered if you considered the men who wrote the NT as Jewish.
I answered your initial question on the first page. But it wasn't the answer that you were looking for. I suppose you think that Jews shouldn't get to decide who is Jewish. Maybe Christians should decide that. Or maybe you personally should decide. Yes, that's probably it.
Actually, my point has always been Jews who penned the NT knew what a Jew was and considered themselves such.
I understand your belief that "no one knows who wrote the NT, but if they were Jews they were heretics." I get it.
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I just wondered if you considered the men who wrote the NT as Jewish.
As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when, Or where. We also don't know what the original Jewish followers of Jesus actually believed because all we have is the NT which is of unclear origin.
If it was written by people who were born Jews then yes, they remained Jews. Apostate Jews, but Jews nonetheless.
That doesn't make them infallible any more than Karl Marx was.
Actually, my point has always been Jews who penned the NT knew what a Jew was and considered themselves such.
So do Reform and Reconstructionist Jews today. And guess what? I think they're wrong also.
I see someone who can feed thiusands with little and someone who defeated death
Having considered, I'm going to revisit this again. Because it's so fundamental to our differences and really why we're talking at each other.
A Jew (me, specifically, in this case) would say that the modern day state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, to wit, (and what follows is not even a complete list)
Deut 30 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.
Isaiah 11: He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
Isaiah 43: “Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your seed from the east and gather you from the west. I shall say to the north, ‘Give up,’ and to the south, ‘Do not hold back, bring My sons from far and My daughters from the end of the earth.’ ”
Jeremiah 23: “Therefore behold, days shall come, says God, that they shall no longer say, ‘As God lives who has taken up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt;’ but ‘As God lives who has taken up and brought the seed of the House of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where He had banished them,’ and they shall dwell in their land.”
Jeremiah 29 And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.
Ezekiel 37 :‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land
Ezekiel 39: “…Now I shall bring back the captivity of Jacob and I shall have compassion on the whole House of Israel, and I shall be zealous for My holy Name… When I shall have returned them from the nations and gathered them from the lands of their enemies… They shall know that I am God, their God, in that I exiled them to the nations and gathered them unto their land, and I will not leave any one of them there. I will no more hide My face from them, as I will pour out My spirit upon the House of Israel…”
Amos 9 “I shall return the captivity of My people Israel and they shall build the waste cities and settle… I shall plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked out of their land that I have given them, says the Lord, your God.”
And your response is "But Jesus fed a lot of people."
Don't you see why this is so underwhelming to me?
Then I point out that God's blessings are literally manifest in the state of Israel being an economic and military superpower, for example
Lev 26 ‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.
I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove wild beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country. You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.
and Deut 28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.
Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
These are tremendous accomplishments for a nation only 70 someodd years old.
And your response was "But Jesus defeated death".
On the one hand, we have something that was promised by God Himself, and it can be seen and quantified.
On the other is claim that isn't even promised in the bible and has to be accepted as an act of faith from a book of unknown origin.
I understand your beliefs. Do you understand mine?
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As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when, Or where. We also don't know what the original Jewish followers of Jesus actually believed because all we have is the NT which is of unclear origin.
I wonder why you say this. As far as I'm aware none of the gospels or Paul's letters etc were circulated anonymously.
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I wonder why you say this.
The "Gospel of Mark" doesn't contain his name anywhere in the text. The "Gospel of Matthew" doesn't contain his name anywhere in the text either. We don't know who wrote them, only who they are attributed to. They're written in Greek, which few Jews in Judea spoke in the first century. They're written decades after the events in question. To insist, as Journeyman does, that they're written by Jews and therefore must be accepted by Jews is a logically flawed premise since we don't know who wrote them. What we do know is that they were written by people who believed in something and were trying to propagate those beliefs. They are not objective works. No holy book is.
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As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when, Or where. We also don't know what the original Jewish followers of Jesus actually believed because all we have is the NT which is of unclear origin.
If it was written by people who were born Jews then yes, they remained Jews. Apostate Jews, but Jews nonetheless.
That doesn't make them infallible any more than Karl Marx was.
I find it ironic that those "unknown authors who might have been Jewish", did more to teach the world about the God of the Jews than any other writers on earth. Actually, to deny what they did is insane.
So do Reform and Reconstructionist Jews today. And guess what? I think they're wrong also.
Why?
Having considered, I'm going to revisit this again. Because it's so fundamental to our differences and really why we're talking at each other.
A Jew (me, specifically, in this case) would say that the modern day state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, to wit, (and what follows is not even a complete list)
Deut 30 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.
Isaiah 11: He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
Isaiah 43: “Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your seed from the east and gather you from the west. I shall say to the north, ‘Give up,’ and to the south, ‘Do not hold back, bring My sons from far and My daughters from the end of the earth.’ ”
Jeremiah 23: “Therefore behold, days shall come, says God, that they shall no longer say, ‘As God lives who has taken up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt;’ but ‘As God lives who has taken up and brought the seed of the House of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where He had banished them,’ and they shall dwell in their land.”
Jeremiah 29 And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.
Ezekiel 37 :‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land
Ezekiel 39: “…Now I shall bring back the captivity of Jacob and I shall have compassion on the whole House of Israel, and I shall be zealous for My holy Name… When I shall have returned them from the nations and gathered them from the lands of their enemies… They shall know that I am God, their God, in that I exiled them to the nations and gathered them unto their land, and I will not leave any one of them there. I will no more hide My face from them, as I will pour out My spirit upon the House of Israel…”
Amos 9 “I shall return the captivity of My people Israel and they shall build the waste cities and settle… I shall plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked out of their land that I have given them, says the Lord, your God.”
And your response is "But Jesus fed a lot of people."
Don't you see why this is so underwhelming to me?
Then I point out that God's blessings are literally manifest in the state of Israel being an economic and military superpower, for example
Lev 26 ‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.
I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove wild beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country. You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.
and Deut 28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.
Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
These are tremendous accomplishments for a nation only 70 someodd years old.
And your response was "But Jesus defeated death".
On the one hand, we have something that was promised by God Himself, and it can be seen and quantified.
On the other is claim that isn't even promised in the bible and has to be accepted as an act of faith from a book of unknown origin.
I understand your beliefs. Do you understand mine?
Perfectly. You're saying Jewish people are being led back to modern day Israel by God, because they've given their hearts completely to God. I disagree.
I understand you find a Jew who has no need to defend himself with man made weapons, or wait for wine to age, is underwhelming to you.
Of course it's all a matter of faith. Like the belief that the stronger allowed injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment against sinners.
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I find it ironic that those "unknown authors who might have been Jewish", did more to teach the world about the God of the Jews than any other writers on earth.
Well, they took Judaism, stripped away the challenging parts, but left the rewards. It's very attractive, sure. That doesn't make it true or correct.
So do Reform and Reconstructionist Jews today. And guess what? I think they're wrong also.
Why?
Again, just because someone is Jewish and writes something doesn't make it true or correct. Reform Jews threw out Jewish law just as the early Christians did and even used some of the same rationale. To me they are just as wrong.
You're saying Jewish people are being led back to modern day Israel by God
Yes, they were. Fulfilling 2500 years old prophecies. Expressing the very blessings that God promised. As you just said, to deny this is insane.
because they've given their hearts completely to God.
Ezekiel actually supports what is happening now. God specifically says that He will end the exile, not because we deserve it, but because it defames His great name to do otherwise.
I understand you find a Jew who has no need to defend himself with man made weapons, or wait for wine to age, is underwhelming to you.
You might as well say that he flew to the moon and back. So what? It's not something promised in the bible anywhere. What God does promise is supremacy over our enemies. " Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you." But this doesn't point an arrow towards Jesus, so you choose to ignore God's word.
Of course it's all a matter of faith. Like the belief that the stronger allowed injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment against sinners.
Which is a Christian concept not found anywhere in my bible.
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Well, they took Judaism, stripped away the challenging parts, but left the rewards. It's very attractive, sure. That doesn't make it true or correct.
I don't know what challenging parts you're talking about, but they lost their lives for spreading the news.
Reform Jews threw out Jewish law just as the early Christians did and even used some of the same rationale. To me they are just as wrong.
The Jews who followed Jesus and wrote the NT didn't throw the Jewish law out.
Yes, they were. Fulfilling 2500 years old prophecies. Expressing the very blessings that God promised. As you just said, to deny this is insane.
That isn't what I called Insane.
Ezekiel actually supports what is happening now. God specifically says that He will end the exile, not because we deserve it, but because it defames His great name to do otherwise.
Actually, Gods' name was blasphemed by gentiles because of the conduct of sinning Jews, for which they went into bondage to begin with. He brings them back because they humble themselves before him, whereby his name is glorified by the gentiles, so, you got it backwards.
You might as well say that he flew to the moon and back. So what? It's not something promised in the bible anywhere. What God does promise is supremacy over our enemies. " Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you." But this doesn't point an arrow towards Jesus, so you choose to ignore God's word.
Of course it's all a matter of faith. Like the belief that the stronger allowed injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment against sinners.
Which is a Christian concept not found anywhere in my bible.
No, it's a Jesus is the Messiah concept, because he taught the world that his Father gave mankind 120 years to repent during Noahs' day and many other places where his anger was deferred....like hanging on a cross instead of killing his enemies.
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I don't know what challenging parts you're talking about
Following the law is quite challenging. Christianity went to "Good news, just believe and it's all good"
but they lost their lives for spreading the news.
Don't talk about people being killed for their beliefs to a Jew.
The Jews who followed Jesus and wrote the NT didn't throw the Jewish law out.
Sure they did.
Yes, they were. Fulfilling 2500 years old prophecies. Expressing the very blessings that God promised. As you just said, to deny this is insane.
That isn't what I called Insane.
What would you call it?
Actually, Gods' name was blasphemed by gentiles because of the conduct of sinning Jews, for which they went into bondage to begin with. He brings them back because they humble themselves before him, whereby his name is glorified by the gentiles, so, you got it backwards.
Ezekiel 36:
“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
The ingethering happens first, and not necessarily because we deserve it. And then God will cleanse us.
No, it's a Jesus is the Messiah concept, because he taught the world that his Father gave mankind 120 years to repent during Noahs' day and many other places where his anger was deferred....like hanging on a cross instead of killing his enemies.
This has nothing to do with messianic prophecy. Like flying to the moon or being a time traveler. Amazing and wondrous, but stick to what God promised.
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Following the law is quite challenging. Christianity went to "Good news, just believe and it's all good"
Not if "just believe" is equal to mere intellectual assent. If "just believe" means a faith that is substantive, i.e. assent and act, then yes, but to claim that this is not challenging is to make the classic Danish mistake, which Kierkegaard was quick to point out.
James 2:18 - 26:
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
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Choosing kumquat instead of apple is the classic Danish mistake, I believe.
I think the same would be true of Jewish "keeping the law."
Doing a mechanical deed without believing that the deed was commanded by God would be, I believe, meaningless. For instance, many Muslims keep hallel, which is essentially kosher, but refraining from eating shellfish or bacon cheeseburgers does not mean that one is keeping a Jewish dietary law set out in Leviticus.
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Not if "just believe" is equal to mere intellectual assent. If "just believe" means a faith that is substantive, i.e. assent and act, then yes, but to claim that this is not challenging is to make the classic Danish mistake
It is not challenging in the context of studying and keeping all of the bible's laws, which certainly is challenging. Mind you, Judaism was never meant to be a mass religion, and Christianity is, so I wouldn't expect it to be as difficult to follow. And it isn't.
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Doing a mechanical deed without believing that the deed was commanded by God would be, I believe, meaningless.
The bible makes no such distinction.
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Following the law is quite challenging. Christianity went to "Good news, just believe and it's all good"
It's a shame you've spent many years at so called Christian forums, listening to heresy.
Don't talk about people being killed for their beliefs to a Jew.
I'll talk to whoever I want about Jesus, the prophets and his followers being killed.
Sure they did.
Then back your claim up with an example.
What would you call it?
I called unbelief in the subject I was discussing insane. You were talking about something else. Your opinion on that was a mistake.
Ezekiel 36:
“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
The ingethering happens first, and not necessarily because we deserve it. And then God will cleanse us.
Your opinion here sounds worse than the heresy you've heard from people in Christian circles, because according to you, even belief isn't necessary for the Jew. It's how God would be sanctified that draws both Jew and gentile to himself.
This has nothing to do with messianic prophecy. Like flying to the moon or being a time traveler. Amazing and wondrous, but stick to what God promised.
I'm sticking to your erroneous claim that the OT doesn't teach about the stronger allowing injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment, because God does it every day. It only seems like a Christian concept to you, because you don't understand how Jesus showed everyone how his Father is every day. 😊
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It's a shame you've spent many years at so called Christian forums, listening to heresy.
Lol.
I'll talk to whoever I want about Jesus, the prophets and his followers being killed.
If one believes the NT accounts.
Or, we could talk about the historical fact of Jews being murdered for being Jewish. Sadly, mostly by people claiming to be Christian.
Then back your claim up with an example.
What example? Christians do not follow biblical law. Do you keep the Sabbath? East kosher? Practice Circumcision wear phylacteries let the land lie fallow every seventh year and on and on and on.
Your opinion on that was a mistake.
Oh so only you get to call people insane. How clever.
Your opinion here sounds worse than the heresy
My opinion? My opinion? I just cited the bible. You know, the word of God. And you're covering your eyes and pretending that it doesn't say what it says.
I'm sticking to your erroneous claim that the OT doesn't teach about the stronger allowing injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment
I was a cop, you know. I allowed injustice to myself on occasion with exacting judgement even though I had the power and authority to do so. It didn't make me the messiah either. Or maybe I am, who knows...
Meanwhile you ignore actual messianic prophecy that has been fulfilled in our lifetime. Because it doesn't validate your beliefs.
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It is not challenging in the context of studying and keeping all of the bible's laws, which certainly is challenging. Mind you, Judaism was never meant to be a mass religion, and Christianity is, so I wouldn't expect it to be as difficult to follow. And it isn't.
Strange hill to die on. They're different challenges, but one doesn't have to be more or less challenging than the other. They're both challenging.
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Lol.
If one believes the NT accounts.
Or, we could talk about the historical fact of Jews being murdered for being Jewish. Sadly, mostly by people claiming to be Christian.
That would be a great topic. I'll start one.
What example? Christians do not follow biblical law. Do you keep the Sabbath? East kosher? Practice Circumcision wear phylacteries let the land lie fallow every seventh year and on and on and on.
I understand those things in spiritual way, for instance,
But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. Act.10:14
Here, our Lord is comparing gentiles to unclean animals, but the point is, Peter followed the law and so did they all, including Paul. They kept Sabbath, but also understood it in a new way, which they taught to gentile followers of the Messiah.
Oh so only you get to call people insane. How clever.
It's not about me. It's about recognizing the insanity of thinking Jews who followed Jesus were misguided, when those men did more to teach the world about their God, than any other group in history.
My opinion? My opinion? I just cited the bible. You know, the word of God. And you're covering your eyes and pretending that it doesn't say what it says.
I'm not covering my eyes. God sprinkles his people with water after repentance. So,
be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Eze.36:32
And that's what He did when people realized the innocent Messiah was put to death.
I was a cop, you know. I allowed injustice to myself on occasion with exacting judgement even though I had the power and authority to do so. It didn't make me the messiah either. Or maybe I am, who knows...
Or maybe you're a follower of the Messiah and aren't aware of it yet.
Meanwhile you ignore actual messianic prophecy that has been fulfilled in our lifetime. Because it doesn't validate your beliefs.
Oh I'm not ignoring what the Messiah said the scriptures say about himself. I was a cop too and like you, tempered my authority to enforce the laws of my State with a lot of mercy. Even so, it took me a long time to understand Paul when he said,
the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless 1Tim.1:9
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Strange hill to die on. They're different challenges, but one doesn't have to be more or less challenging than the other. They're both challenging.
As a person with faith who also attempts to follow all of the bible's laws, I find that believing in God is the easy part.
The disagreement between Paul and the Jerusalem church on circumcision is what ended defining Christianity. Sure it was easier. No circumcisions and no following of biblical law.
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I understand those things in spiritual way,
Right. A "spiritual" way. Because you don't keep them.
It's not about me. It's about recognizing the insanity of thinking Jews who followed Jesus were misguided,
Why is it insane? You believe that Jews who don't follow Jesus are misguided. Why do you get to define sanity?
I'm not covering my eyes. God sprinkles his people with water after repentance. So,
be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Eze.36:32
And that's what He did when people realized the innocent Messiah was put to death.
The chapter also talks about the gathering of the Jewish exiles before this verse. Which did not happen then, its happening now. Oops.
Oh I'm not ignoring what the Messiah said the scriptures say about himself. I was a cop too and like you, tempered my authority to enforce the laws of my State with a lot of mercy. Even so, it took me a long time to understand Paul when he said,
the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless 1Tim.1:9
Which has nothing to do with actual messianic prophecy being fulfilled in our lifetimes. But keep changing the subject.
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As a person with faith who also attempts to follow all of the bible's laws, I find that believing in God is the easy part.
The disagreement between Paul and the Jerusalem church on circumcision is what ended defining Christianity. Sure it was easier. No circumcisions and no following of biblical law.
What I get out of this is:
- Jewish faith is more challenging because Jews must follow all of the Bible's laws.
- Christian faith is less challenging because Christians don't follow (all of) the Bible's laws.
- Believing in God is easy (relative to following all of the Bible's laws); therefore, Christianity is easy because Christians aren't concerned with following (all of) the Bible's laws.
- Following the Bible's laws is challenging; therefore, Judaism is more challenging than Christianity.
You're not suffering an upset stomach or headache?
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Right. A "spiritual" way. Because you don't keep them.
No, it's because that's the way the Messiah explained them.
Why is it insane? You believe that Jews who don't follow Jesus are misguided. Why do you get to define sanity?
I just told you why it's crazy...twice.
The chapter also talks about the gathering of the Jewish exiles before this verse. Which did not happen then, its happening now. Oops.
It happens when people are gathered to God through Jesus.
Which has nothing to do with actual messianic prophecy being fulfilled in our lifetimes. But keep changing the subject.
The holy Spirit is being given to Gods' people. He has been since the Messiah conquered death.
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Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?
No.
Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish, or if they follow a proper conversion.
There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.
I chose not to read the whole thread maybe this thought was brought up ...
Christian Scriptures tell me Rahab and Ruth are grandmothers of Jesus. If fact, in your opinion would/should/could that have any bearing on the Jewishness of Jesus?
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I chose not to read the whole thread maybe this thought was brought up ...
Christian Scriptures tell me Rahab and Ruth are grandmothers of Jesus. If fact, in your opinion would/should/could that have any bearing on the Jewishness of Jesus?
Ruth was a convert to Judaism. She tells her mother in law Naomi, "Wherever you go, I will go, and wherever you live, I will live; your people will be my people, and your God will be my God."
I am uncertain of the source for Rahab. I think it is in the NT. I do not believe there is a Jewish source for that.
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Why is it a person Jewish based on his mother, rather than his father?
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Why is it a person Jewish based on his mother, rather than his father?
First of all, the stories in the bible. Abraham has many children, but only one from Sara, and Isaac is the only one who continues in the covenant. Isaac has two sons, both presumably Jewish, but Esau marries Hitties and Ishmaelites and so his descendants are not Jews.
In the book of Ezra chapter 9, it is brought to his attention that "They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons" and in the following chapter they are ordered to separate from their foreign wives. The issue of foreign husbands is never brought up. That seems to tell us that foreign husbands were not problematic as the children were Jews.
The original source that the Talmud cites in Deuteronomy 7. Verse 3 is an injunction against intermarriage - You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son. This prohibits marrying either gender. The following verse is more interesting - For he will turn away your son from following Me, and they will worship the gods of others, and the wrath of the Lord will be kindled against you... The first part of the verse "For he will turn away your son from following Me", the "He" being the foreign husband, and "your son" actually being "your grandson." The point being, the gentile husband will teach your grandson, who is Jewish because his mother is, to worship other gods. It doesn't say "she will turn away" because if the mother is gentile, the grandson is not Jewish anyway.
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You know that Christians believe God supernaturally fertilized Mary's ovum to cause Jesus' conception. Since God has no DNA, the Jewish mother principle provides for Jesus' Jewishness. As if by design. ;)
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You know that Christians believe God supernaturally fertilized Mary's ovum to cause Jesus' conception. Since God has no DNA, the Jewish mother principle provides for Jesus' Jewishness. As if by design. ;)
Problematically, the tribal affiliation comes from the father's side. See Numbers 1:2 "Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by families following their fathers' houses..."
Jesus can't be a descendant of king David and thus eligible for the throne if his father wasn't.
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See Matthew chapter 1
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Mary provides Jesus' Jewish DNA, while God Himself decrees His Son's right to the throne as messiah. (See Psalms 2).
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I chose not to read the whole thread maybe this thought was brought up ...
Christian Scriptures tell me Rahab and Ruth are grandmothers of Jesus. If fact, in your opinion would/should/could that have any bearing on the Jewishness of Jesus?
Ruth was a convert to Judaism. She tells her mother in law Naomi, "Wherever you go, I will go, and wherever you live, I will live; your people will be my people, and your God will be my God."
I am uncertain of the source for Rahab. I think it is in the NT. I do not believe there is a Jewish source for that.
For Rahab try with Joshua when entering The Promised Land. Joshua sent spies into Jerico and Rahab hid them.
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See Matthew chapter 1
That's not how adoption works in Judaism. Adoption is a big Mitzvah, but it does not confer tribal affiliation nor right to the throne. Or priesthood for that matter.
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Mary provides Jesus' Jewish DNA, while God Himself decrees His Son's right to the throne as messiah.
This is irrelevant. You can't sell Jesus as being from the line of David when his father is not, in fact, from the line of David.
(See Psalms 2).
This Psalm is about David.
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For Rahab try with Joshua when entering The Promised Land. Joshua sent spies into Jerico and Rahab hid them.
I know who Rahab is. I don't have any source in my bible that says that Rahab is an ancestor of king David.
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Maybe you need a new Bible…
😳😀
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Maybe you need a new Bible…
"You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it," Deuteronomy 4 and elsewhere.
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Mary provides Jesus' Jewish DNA, while God Himself decrees His Son's right to the throne as messiah.
This is irrelevant. You can't sell Jesus as being from the line of David when his father is not, in fact, from the line of David.
(See Psalms 2).
This Psalm is about David.
I said Jesus is Jewish because of Mary, and that He inherits the kingdom because God says so. I didn't anticipate an agreement about Psalms 2.
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😳😀
I mean really, if your answer is "I know the rules in your bible don't permit this, but if you accept this new revelation it all works out..." then how can you logically reject Mormonism? Or Islam for that matter?
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I said Jesus is Jewish because of Mary,
Which is trivial, but ok.
and that He inherits the kingdom because God says so.
But the messiah has to come from the line of David. By your definition, he doesn't. If God had no intention of doing that, why put it in the bible to begin with?
I didn't anticipate an agreement about Psalms 2.
Psalm 2 is irrelevant, given the above point.
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I didn't anticipate an agreement about Psalms 2.
There is no reason to believe this Psalm is about anyone besides the author, king David. Verse 7: "I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you."
But even if you want to say that it's referring to the messiah, so what? The biblical line where God refers to someone as "My son" does not mean that they are of divine origin. God refers to the entire nation of Israel in this manner, Exodus 4, for example, "Then tell Pharaoh that this is what the LORD says: ‘Israel is My firstborn son, and I told you to let My son go so that he may worship Me. " Or Hosea 11: "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son..." Or Deuteronomy 14: You are the children of the LORD your God.
This is also a poetic term referring to the line of king David. For example, about king Solomon: He said to me: ‘Solomon your son is the one who will build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. It doesn't mean that Solomon didn't have a human father.
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😳😀
I mean really, if your answer is "I know the rules in your bible don't permit this, but if you accept this new revelation it all works out..." then how can you logically reject Mormonism? Or Islam for that matter?
The Hebrew Scriptures were new revelation for the previous folks. Let’s not appeal to self defeating logic…
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The Hebrew Scriptures were new revelation for the previous folks.
The Hebrew scriptures did not contradict previously existing divine revelation.
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What previous revelation do you consider to be divine?
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The Hebrew Scriptures were new revelation for the previous folks.
The Hebrew scriptures did not contradict previously existing divine revelation.
New Testament does not claim to contradict the old.
It claims that the Old is fulfilled in the person of Jesus the Messiah and that the New Covenant based in Jesus blood sacrifice is the basis of a new and better covenant.
I believe that by faith, just as you hold to the old covenant by faith.
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What previous revelation do you consider to be divine?
None.
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New Testament does not claim to contradict the old.
We are having a discussion in which it appears that it does.
The messiah must come from the line of king David, passed down father to son. Jesus is not descended from king David on his father's side.
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But if one believes the virgin birth then the adopting human father would be the legal line to David
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There is no reason to believe this Psalm is about anyone besides the author, king David. Verse 7: "I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you."
But even if you want to say that it's referring to the messiah, so what? The biblical line where God refers to someone as "My son" does not mean that they are of divine origin. God refers to the entire nation of Israel in this manner, Exodus 4, for example, "Then tell Pharaoh that this is what the LORD says: ‘Israel is My firstborn son, and I told you to let My son go so that he may worship Me. " Or Hosea 11: "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son..." Or Deuteronomy 14: You are the children of the LORD your God.
This is also a poetic term referring to the line of king David. For example, about king Solomon: He said to me: ‘Solomon your son is the one who will build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father. It doesn't mean that Solomon didn't have a human father.
Well some of your Jewish sages believed Psalms 2 referred to David's greater son, the messiah, so I guess it's a matter of interpretation. Here's a point to consider: the text describes the nations conspiring against God and His Annointed in a futile attempt to throw off their subservience to them. (This actually sounds like the great rebellion that occurs at the end of the Millennial Kingdom as described in Revelation 20:7-9).
At any rate, in order to cast off such a yoke, the nations had to first be under it. With the nations of the world never having been in subjection to David as God's annointed, Psalms 2 is prophecy concerning the dominion of a future messianic ruler. I choose to believe that individual is Jesus of Nazareth. Time will tell.
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But if one believes the virgin birth then the adopting human father would be the legal line to David
Nope.
Adoption in Judaism is a big Mitzvah, but it confers no legal rights on the adoptee. One can't be adopted by the king and be in line for the throne. One can't be adopted by the high priest and be the next high priest.
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Well some of your Jewish sages believed Psalms 2 referred to David's greater son, the messiah, so I guess it's a matter of interpretation.
Again, even if we say that it does, it still doesn't mean what you're trying to make it mean. The messiah isn't literally God's son any more than the Jewish people or king Solomon is.
Here's a point to consider: the text describes the nations conspiring against God and His Annointed in a futile attempt to throw off their subservience to them.
Or, it could be about the trials that king David experienced in his lifetime, as many Psalms indeed are. Did the Philistines try to depose him? Yes. Yes they did.
I choose to believe that individual is Jesus of Nazareth. Time will tell.
As is your right.
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In another thread, Fenris said (some) Christians have been haters of other people and this could determine if that person was a real Christian.
Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?
Genesis 12, 15, and 17, describe what's known as the Abrahamic Covenant. God promises Abraham and his seed, a people later to be identified as the children of Israel, many things such as land, blessings, etcetera.
Later, God builds upon the Abrahamic Covenant and makes a New Covenant through Moses with the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob.) Here, God gives the twelve tribes He delivered from the bondage in Israel His Law in order for them to live according to God's Laws. This is called the Mosaic Covenant and there are three parts covering daily living for the Hebrew people. The Moral Laws (Ten Commandments), the Social Laws, and the Ceremonial Laws. These Law lay out God's expectation of this people living under His commandments.
Later, through the sacrifice of His Son, the lamb of God, Jesus Christ offers Himself to atone for the sins of the Hebrew people who are under the Law and this included All of Abraham's offspring through Isaac, then Jacob, then through Jacob's twelve sons and their offspring.
Anyone who is born of Abraham is a Hebrew/Jew. This includes the offspring of the promised Isaac, and then the inheritance of the Abraham covenant is inherited by Jacob (who God changed his name to "Israel"), and through Jacobs twelve sons and their offspring.
It is impossible for any non-Hebrew Gentile to become a Jew.
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Even under the Misaic Law a gentile could convert and become a child of the Covenant.
Silly people.
Matzoh ball soup and latkkes make you Jewish…. At least the ones made by Mrs Fenris have that power…
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Even under the Misaic Law a gentile could convert and become a child of the Covenant.
Silly people.
Matzoh ball soup and latkkes make you Jewish…. At least the ones made by Mrs Fenris have that power…
Any non-Hebrew Gentile can become allies with the commonwealth of Israel but never included in any of the Hebrew covenants.
The Abraham Covenant is between God, Abraham, and extended to Abraham's seed.
The Mosaic Covenant is between God and the children of Israel made when the Hebrews were in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle.
The New Covenant is between God and the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes). and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes.)
There are no non-Hebrew Gentiles included in any of these three Hebrew covenants.
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Ok
You just went from annoying to stupid heretic.
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If you can't attack the position of truth posted, you attack the person.
Unless, of course, you can post Scripture that God includes non-Hebrews in His covenants with the Hebrew people.
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If you can't attack the position of truth posted, you attack the person.
Unless, of course, you can post Scripture that God includes non-Hebrews in His covenants with the Hebrew people.
Ruth
Esther 8
Esther 9
Exodus 12
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Any non-Hebrew Gentile can become allies with the commonwealth of Israel but never included in any of the Hebrew covenants.
As the local token Jewish guy, I'm going to have to disagree.
In evidence I'm going to present: Ruth, the great grandmother of king David.
Yes, Jews accept converts, although it is neither easy nor necessary.
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In Hebrew, "Jew" means "Praiser of Yah (Jah)".
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Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?
No.
Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish, or if they follow a proper conversion.
There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.
I thouht Jews coud be "cut off" from their people, making them no longer Jews.
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I thouht Jews coud be "cut off" from their people, making them no longer Jews.
You're talking about the punishment of "Karet". I would define that as "spiritual excision". It's a punishment by God, not human beings, and it doesn't make the person any less a Jew. They are still obligated to uphold the law like any other Jew.
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:o :o
For pity sake…
I cannot believe you two are having a conversation and using the words “Jew” and “cut off” in the same sentence and not seeing the irony…
Oy vey!!!