What Makes A Person Jewish?

[Fenris]

Paul learned the meaning of circumcision, which is walking with our Lord.

Using that mindset, you can ignore all the law.

He found out that circumcision is meaningless without walking with God.

We've already had this discussion. Circumcision as a physical act is commanded in the bible along with 612 others. This is spelled out very clearly in the plain text. For example

Deuteronomy 4 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.

and

Keep His statutes and commandments, which I am giving you today, so that you and your children after you may prosper, and that you may live long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.

and

And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Deuteronomy 5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deuteronomy 6 These are the commandments and statutes and ordinances that the LORD your God has instructed me to teach you to follow in the land that you are about to enter and possess

Deuteronomy 8 You must carefully follow every commandment I am giving you today, so that you may live and multiply, and enter and possess the land that the LORD swore to give your fathers.

Deuteronomy 11 You shall therefore love the LORD your God and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.

Deuteronomy 28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth

Exodus 18 Teach them the statutes and laws, and show them the way to live and the work they must do.

Lev 18 Keep My statutes and My judgments, for the man who does these things will live by them. I am the LORD.

Lev 22 You are to keep My commandments and practice them. I am the LORD.

[Fenris]

I'm not sure why it would come as a surprise as I've said myself that the understandings of God are dissimilar, but to the point, this doesn't lead us to a "strict" vs "less-strict" monotheism

Why can't we just characterize a faith as compared to others? It doesn't diminish it. For example, Judaism and Islam are also rules-based religions. Christianity is a principle-based religion. In this vein, Judaism and Islam are strictly monotheistic; Christianity is less so because 1 is also 3.

[journeyman]

Using that mindset, you can ignore all the law.

Using that minset is the deepest respect for God and his law.

We've already had this discussion. Circumcision as a physical act is commanded in the bible along with 612 others. This is spelled out very clearly in the plain text. For example

Deuteronomy 4 Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you.

and

Keep His statutes and commandments, which I am giving you today, so that you and your children after you may prosper, and that you may live long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for all time.

and

And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Deuteronomy 5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deuteronomy 6 These are the commandments and statutes and ordinances that the LORD your God has instructed me to teach you to follow in the land that you are about to enter and possess

Deuteronomy 8 You must carefully follow every commandment I am giving you today, so that you may live and multiply, and enter and possess the land that the LORD swore to give your fathers.

Deuteronomy 11 You shall therefore love the LORD your God and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.

Deuteronomy 28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth

Exodus 18 Teach them the statutes and laws, and show them the way to live and the work they must do.

Lev 18 Keep My statutes and My judgments, for the man who does these things will live by them. I am the LORD.

Lev 22 You are to keep My commandments and practice them. I am the LORD.

I'm familiar with the passages you cited. They must agree with other passages of scripture, such as Jos.5:2-6, Jer.4:4 etc,
Those passages only mesh with those you cited from my point of view. Your interpretation makes them pointless.

[Fenris]

Using that minset is the deepest respect for God and his law.

Throwing out the law is respecting the law. ok.

Those passages only mesh with those you cited from my point of view. Your interpretation makes them pointless.

Doing the exact things that God ordered us to do is pointless. ok.

[Athanasius]

Why can't we just characterize a faith as compared to others? It doesn't diminish it. For example, Judaism and Islam are also rules-based religions. Christianity is a principle-based religion. In this vein, Judaism and Islam are strictly monotheistic; Christianity is less so because 1 is also 3.

I'm not following - how does rules vs. principles bear on monotheism? And we can characterize different faiths, yes. All I'm saying is that Christianity isn't less strictly monotheistic than Judaism or Islam.

[Fenris]

I'm not following - how does rules vs. principles bear on monotheism? And we can characterize different faiths, yes. All I'm saying is that Christianity isn't less strictly monotheistic than Judaism or Islam.

"Rules vs. principles" is the same as "More vs. less monotheistic." It's just a way of characterizing religions being compared to other religions.

[Fenris]

Just seems like a strange hill to die on. It's less monotheistic. So what?

[Athanasius]

Just seems like a strange hill to die on. It's less monotheistic. So what?

The 'so what?' is that it's not less monotheistic. Or said another way, so what if the Jewish conception of God is errant?

"Rules vs. principles" is the same as "More vs. less monotheistic." It's just a way of characterizing religions being compared to other religions.

It's not a good equivalency. If we were to talk about "Rules vs Principles" when it comes to moral reasoning, we wouldn't suggest that "principles" based moral reasoning is less strictly moral than rules-based moral reasoning. When applied to theism, we also wouldn't make the argument regarding monotheism. Or, we shouldn't.

[Fenris]

The 'so what?' is that it's not less monotheistic. Or said another way, so what if the Jewish conception of God is errant?

I wouldn't be surprised if a Christian said that to me. So what?

It's not a good equivalency. If we were to talk about "Rules vs Principles" when it comes to moral reasoning, we wouldn't suggest that "principles" based moral reasoning is less strictly moral than rules-based moral reasoning.

One might make that very point. So what?

When applied to theism, we also wouldn't make the argument regarding monotheism. Or, we shouldn't.

I don't understand your point. Different religions are different.  So what?

[Athanasius]

I wouldn't be surprised if a Christian said that to me. So what?

So depending on the context, you would either ignore the claim or defend Judaism against it, much like how you might defend the suggestion that the OT and NT have different topics, or you might argue for why Moses wasn't allowed into the Promised land, or you might suggest that the Christians who insert Jesus into every possible exegetical situation are misguided.

You might argue over what makes a person Jewish. Or should journeyman simply say, "so what?"

One might make that very point. So what?

Are you okay with making incorrect claims?

I don't understand your point. Different religions are different.  So what?

Different religions ought to still be understood properly.

This is still a forum, after all. The "so what?" is that I'm engaging the claim because we're having a discussion -- right? We're not simply lost in the lala land of seminary correctness?

[Fenris]

So depending on the context, you would either ignore the claim or defend Judaism against it, much like how you might defend the suggestion that the OT and NT have different topics, or you might argue for why Moses wasn't allowed into the Promised land, or you might suggest that the Christians who insert Jesus into every possible exegetical situation are misguided.

Yes. And I am expressing an opinion. On the other hand, sometimes I will see something that I perceive to be wrong in some way and I just ignore it.

You might argue over what makes a person Jewish. Or should journeyman simply say, "so what?"

He has not said that, however.

Are you okay with making incorrect claims?

Perceiving something differently from you does not make me incorrect. Nor does it make you incorrect.

Different religions ought to still be understood properly.

Religions are perceived differently to their adherents than to those on the outside. I'm sure everyone here thinks my religious beliefs are wrong.

[journeyman]

Throwing out the law is respecting the law. ok.

You have it backwards my friend. After placing his faith in our Lord, Paul understood the purpose and embraced the law like never before.

Doing the exact things that God ordered us to do is pointless. ok.

No, but being circumcised and not doing the exact things that God ordered one to do is pointless.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart...Deu.10:16

This is what Paul taught,

circumcision is that of the heart, Rom.2:29
and,
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jer.4:4

I'm not sure how you view unquenchable fire. In the NT, it depicts the return of Messiah on judgment day.

[Fenris]

You have it backwards my friend. After placing his faith in our Lord, Paul understood the purpose and embraced the law like never before.

He "embraced it" but he didn't do it. "I am not under the law". "Converts do not need circumcision".

No, but being circumcised and not doing the exact things that God ordered one to do is pointless.

Being circumcised is one of the things that God ordered us to do.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart...Deu.10:16

A more complete quote provides much needed context-

So let's start at verse 12 instead of verse 16.

And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

 To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet the Lord set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations—as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.

"Circumcision of the heart" comes as part of follow all of God's commands. Not in place of following all of God's commands.

This is what Paul taught,

circumcision is that of the heart, Rom.2:29

But not the body, even though God explicitly demands that of His people.

Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. Jer.4:4

I'm not sure how you view unquenchable fire. In the NT, it depicts the return of Messiah on judgment day.

I'm not going to quote the entire of Jeremiah 4. If you take the time to read it, you'll see that Jeremiah is warning his generation of the coming disaster from Babylon, should they not repent and do better. Nothing messianic about it at all. And we don't view the messiah as coming to murder more Jews, (honestly, haven't enough Jews been murdered in history for the crime of being Jews?!) but to bring us back to the land of Israel and usher in an era of world peace and service to God.

[Athanasius]

So depending on the context, you would either ignore the claim or defend Judaism against it, much like how you might defend the suggestion that the OT and NT have different topics, or you might argue for why Moses wasn't allowed into the Promised land, or you might suggest that the Christians who insert Jesus into every possible exegetical situation are misguided.

Yes. And I am expressing an opinion. On the other hand, sometimes I will see something that I perceive to be wrong in some way and I just ignore it.

You might argue over what makes a person Jewish. Or should journeyman simply say, "so what?"

He has not said that, however.

Are you okay with making incorrect claims?

Perceiving something differently from you does not make me incorrect. Nor does it make you incorrect.

Different religions ought to still be understood properly.

Religions are perceived differently to their adherents than to those on the outside. I'm sure everyone here thinks my religious beliefs are wrong.

Heh.

[journeyman]

He "embraced it" but he didn't do it. "I am not under the law". "Converts do not need circumcision".

Being circumcised is one of the things that God ordered us to do.

A more complete quote provides much needed context-

So let's start at verse 12 instead of verse 16.

And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

 To the Lord your God belong the heavens, even the highest heavens, the earth and everything in it. Yet the Lord set his affection on your ancestors and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations—as it is today. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not be stiff-necked any longer.

"Circumcision of the heart" comes as part of follow all of God's commands. Not in place of following all of God's commands.

But not the body, even though God explicitly demands that of His people.

I understand what you're saying, but from your perspective, bad conduct isn't reason to bar a circumcised Jew from the promised land, yet it happened to all (save two) who left Egypt.
The Jewish people came to understand that the covenant God made with Abrahan was by faith, 1st that Isaac would be born (Gen.17) and reiterated as the reason after the sacrifice of Isaac (Gen.22), through whom his seed would come.

Furthermore, those Jews came to realize Moses (and later Joshus) circumcised the Israelites because of that covenant of faith made with Abraham.

I'm not going to quote the entire of Jeremiah 4. If you take the time to read it, you'll see that Jeremiah is warning his generation of the coming disaster from Babylon, should they not repent and do better. Nothing messianic about it at all. And we don't view the messiah as coming to murder more Jews, (honestly, haven't enough Jews been murdered in history for the crime of being Jews?!) but to bring us back to the land of Israel and usher in an era of world peace and service to God.

The Jews also came to know that unquenchable fire is synonymous with the presence of God. Many will perish in his presence on judgment day. None of them will be murdered.