What Makes A Person Jewish?

[Redeemed]

As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when, Or where. We also don't know what the original Jewish followers of Jesus actually believed because all we have is the NT which is of unclear origin.

I wonder why you say this. As far as I'm aware none of the gospels or Paul's letters etc were circulated anonymously.
 

[Fenris]

I wonder why you say this.

The "Gospel of Mark" doesn't contain his name anywhere in the text. The "Gospel of Matthew" doesn't contain his name anywhere in the text either. We don't know who wrote them, only who they are attributed to. They're written in Greek, which few Jews in Judea spoke in the first century. They're written decades after the events in question. To insist, as Journeyman does, that they're written by Jews and therefore must be accepted by Jews is a logically flawed premise since we don't know who wrote them. What we do know is that they were written by people who believed in something and were trying to propagate those beliefs. They are not objective works. No holy book is.

[journeyman]

As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when, Or where. We also don't know what the original Jewish followers of Jesus actually believed because all we have is the NT which is of unclear origin.

If it was written by people who were born Jews then yes, they remained Jews. Apostate Jews, but Jews nonetheless.

That doesn't make them infallible any more than Karl Marx was.

I find it ironic that those "unknown authors who might have been Jewish", did more to teach the world about the God of the Jews than any other writers on earth. Actually, to deny what they did is insane.

So do Reform and Reconstructionist Jews today. And guess what? I think they're wrong also.

Why?

Having considered, I'm going to revisit this again. Because it's so fundamental to our differences and really why we're talking at each other.

A Jew (me, specifically, in this case) would say that the modern day state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, to wit, (and what follows is not even a complete list)

Deut 30 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Isaiah 11: He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

Isaiah 43: “Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your seed from the east and gather you from the west. I shall say to the north, ‘Give up,’ and to the south, ‘Do not hold back, bring My sons from far and My daughters from the end of the earth.’ ”

Jeremiah 23: “Therefore behold, days shall come, says God, that they shall no longer say, ‘As God lives who has taken up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt;’ but ‘As God lives who has taken up and brought the seed of the House of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where He had banished them,’ and they shall dwell in their land.”

Jeremiah 29  And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

Ezekiel 37 :‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land

Ezekiel 39: “…Now I shall bring back the captivity of Jacob and I shall have compassion on the whole House of Israel, and I shall be zealous for My holy Name… When I shall have returned them from the nations and gathered them from the lands of their enemies… They shall know that I am God, their God, in that I exiled them to the nations and gathered them unto their land, and I will not leave any one of them there. I will no more hide My face from them, as I will pour out My spirit upon the House of Israel…”

Amos 9 “I shall return the captivity of My people Israel and they shall build the waste cities and settle… I shall plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked out of their land that I have given them, says the Lord, your God.”


And your response is "But Jesus fed a lot of people."

Don't you see why this is so underwhelming to me?

Then I point out that God's blessings are literally manifest in the state of Israel being an economic and military superpower, for example

Lev 26 ‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.

I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove wild beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country. You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.

and Deut 28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.

 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.

 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

 The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.

 The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

These are tremendous accomplishments for a nation only 70 someodd years old.

And your response was "But Jesus defeated death".

On the one hand, we have something that was promised by God Himself, and it can be seen and quantified.

On the other is claim that isn't even promised in the bible and has to be accepted as an act of faith from a book of unknown origin.

I understand your beliefs. Do you understand mine?

Perfectly. You're saying Jewish people are being led back to modern day Israel by God, because they've given their hearts completely to God. I disagree.

I understand you find a Jew who has no need to defend himself with man made weapons, or wait for wine to age, is underwhelming to you.
Of course it's all a matter of faith. Like the belief that the stronger allowed injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment against sinners.

[Fenris]

I find it ironic that those "unknown authors who might have been Jewish", did more to teach the world about the God of the Jews than any other writers on earth.

Well, they took Judaism, stripped away the challenging parts, but left the rewards. It's very attractive, sure. That doesn't make it true or correct.

So do Reform and Reconstructionist Jews today. And guess what? I think they're wrong also.

Why?

Again, just because someone is Jewish and writes something doesn't make it true or correct. Reform Jews threw out Jewish law just as the early Christians did and even used some of the same rationale. To me they are just as wrong.

You're saying Jewish people are being led back to modern day Israel by God

Yes, they were. Fulfilling 2500 years old prophecies. Expressing the very blessings that God promised. As you just said, to deny this is insane.

because they've given their hearts completely to God.

Ezekiel actually supports what is happening now. God specifically says that He will end the exile, not because we deserve it, but because it defames His great name to do otherwise.

I understand you find a Jew who has no need to defend himself with man made weapons, or wait for wine to age, is underwhelming to you.

You might as well say that he flew to the moon and back. So what? It's not something promised in the bible anywhere. What God does promise is supremacy over our enemies. " Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you." But this doesn't point an arrow towards Jesus, so you choose to ignore God's word.

Of course it's all a matter of faith. Like the belief that the stronger allowed injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment against sinners.

Which is a Christian concept not found anywhere in my bible.

[journeyman]

Well, they took Judaism, stripped away the challenging parts, but left the rewards. It's very attractive, sure. That doesn't make it true or correct.

I don't know what challenging parts you're talking about, but they lost their lives for spreading the news.

Reform Jews threw out Jewish law just as the early Christians did and even used some of the same rationale. To me they are just as wrong.

The Jews who followed Jesus and wrote the NT didn't throw the Jewish law out.

Yes, they were. Fulfilling 2500 years old prophecies. Expressing the very blessings that God promised. As you just said, to deny this is insane.

That isn't what I called Insane.

Ezekiel actually supports what is happening now. God specifically says that He will end the exile, not because we deserve it, but because it defames His great name to do otherwise.

Actually, Gods' name was blasphemed by gentiles because of the conduct of sinning Jews, for which they went into bondage to begin with. He brings them back because they humble themselves before him, whereby his name is glorified by the gentiles, so, you got it backwards.

You might as well say that he flew to the moon and back. So what? It's not something promised in the bible anywhere. What God does promise is supremacy over our enemies. " Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you." But this doesn't point an arrow towards Jesus, so you choose to ignore God's word.

Of course it's all a matter of faith. Like the belief that the stronger allowed injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment against sinners.

Which is a Christian concept not found anywhere in my bible.

No, it's a Jesus is the Messiah concept, because he taught the world that his Father gave mankind 120 years to repent during Noahs' day and many other places where his anger was deferred....like hanging on a cross instead of killing his enemies.

[Fenris]

I don't know what challenging parts you're talking about

Following the law is quite challenging. Christianity went to "Good news, just believe and it's all good"

but they lost their lives for spreading the news.

Don't talk about people being killed for their beliefs to a Jew.

The Jews who followed Jesus and wrote the NT didn't throw the Jewish law out.

Sure they did.

Yes, they were. Fulfilling 2500 years old prophecies. Expressing the very blessings that God promised. As you just said, to deny this is insane.

That isn't what I called Insane.

What would you call it?

Actually, Gods' name was blasphemed by gentiles because of the conduct of sinning Jews, for which they went into bondage to begin with. He brings them back because they humble themselves before him, whereby his name is glorified by the gentiles, so, you got it backwards.

Ezekiel 36:

“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.  I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.  And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

The ingethering happens first, and not necessarily because we deserve it. And then God will cleanse us.

No, it's a Jesus is the Messiah concept, because he taught the world that his Father gave mankind 120 years to repent during Noahs' day and many other places where his anger was deferred....like hanging on a cross instead of killing his enemies.

This has nothing to do with messianic prophecy. Like flying to the moon or being a time traveler. Amazing and wondrous, but stick to what God promised. 

[Athanasius]

Following the law is quite challenging. Christianity went to "Good news, just believe and it's all good"

Not if "just believe" is equal to mere intellectual assent. If "just believe" means a faith that is substantive, i.e. assent and act, then yes, but to claim that this is not challenging is to make the classic Danish mistake, which Kierkegaard was quick to point out.

James 2:18 - 26:

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

[RabbiKnife]

Choosing kumquat instead of apple is the classic Danish mistake, I believe.

I think the same would be true of Jewish "keeping the law."

Doing a mechanical deed without believing that the deed was commanded by God would be, I believe, meaningless.   For instance, many Muslims keep hallel, which is essentially kosher, but refraining from eating shellfish or bacon cheeseburgers does not mean that one is keeping a Jewish dietary law set out in Leviticus.

[Fenris]

Not if "just believe" is equal to mere intellectual assent. If "just believe" means a faith that is substantive, i.e. assent and act, then yes, but to claim that this is not challenging is to make the classic Danish mistake

It is not challenging in the context of studying and keeping all of the bible's laws, which certainly is challenging. Mind you, Judaism was never meant to be a mass religion, and Christianity is, so I wouldn't expect it to be as difficult to follow. And it isn't.

[Fenris]

Doing a mechanical deed without believing that the deed was commanded by God would be, I believe, meaningless. 

The bible makes no such distinction.

[journeyman]

Following the law is quite challenging. Christianity went to "Good news, just believe and it's all good"

It's a shame you've spent many years at so called Christian forums, listening to heresy.

Don't talk about people being killed for their beliefs to a Jew.

I'll talk to whoever I want about Jesus, the prophets and his followers being killed.

Sure they did.

Then back your claim up with an example.

What would you call it?

I called unbelief in the subject I was discussing insane. You were talking about something else. Your opinion on that was a mistake.

Ezekiel 36:

“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.  I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.  And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

The ingethering happens first, and not necessarily because we deserve it. And then God will cleanse us.

Your opinion here sounds worse than the heresy you've heard from people in Christian circles, because according to you, even belief isn't necessary for the Jew. It's how God would be sanctified that draws both Jew and gentile to himself.

This has nothing to do with messianic prophecy. Like flying to the moon or being a time traveler. Amazing and wondrous, but stick to what God promised.

I'm sticking to your erroneous claim that the OT doesn't teach about the stronger allowing injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment, because God does it every day. It only seems like a Christian concept to you, because you don't understand how Jesus showed everyone how his Father is every day. 😊

[Fenris]

It's a shame you've spent many years at so called Christian forums, listening to heresy.

Lol.

I'll talk to whoever I want about Jesus, the prophets and his followers being killed.

If one believes the NT accounts.

Or, we could talk about the historical fact of Jews being murdered for being Jewish. Sadly, mostly by people claiming to be Christian.

Then back your claim up with an example.

What example? Christians do not follow biblical law. Do you keep the Sabbath? East kosher? Practice Circumcision wear phylacteries let the land lie fallow every seventh year and on and on and on. 

Your opinion on that was a mistake.

Oh so only you get to call people insane. How clever.

Your opinion here sounds worse than the heresy

My opinion? My opinion? I just cited the bible. You know, the word of God. And you're covering your eyes and pretending that it doesn't say what it says.

I'm sticking to your erroneous claim that the OT doesn't teach about the stronger allowing injustice himself without immediately exacting judgment

I was a cop, you know. I allowed injustice to myself on occasion with exacting judgement even though I had the power and authority to do so. It didn't make me the messiah either. Or maybe I am, who knows...

Meanwhile you ignore actual messianic prophecy that has been fulfilled in our lifetime. Because it doesn't validate your beliefs.

[Athanasius]

It is not challenging in the context of studying and keeping all of the bible's laws, which certainly is challenging. Mind you, Judaism was never meant to be a mass religion, and Christianity is, so I wouldn't expect it to be as difficult to follow. And it isn't.

Strange hill to die on. They're different challenges, but one doesn't have to be more or less challenging than the other. They're both challenging.

[journeyman]

Lol.

If one believes the NT accounts.

Or, we could talk about the historical fact of Jews being murdered for being Jewish. Sadly, mostly by people claiming to be Christian.

That would be a great topic. I'll start one.

What example? Christians do not follow biblical law. Do you keep the Sabbath? East kosher? Practice Circumcision wear phylacteries let the land lie fallow every seventh year and on and on and on.

I understand those things in spiritual way, for instance,

But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. Act.10:14

Here, our Lord is comparing gentiles to unclean animals, but the point is, Peter followed the law and so did they all, including Paul. They kept Sabbath, but also understood it in a new way, which they taught to gentile followers of the Messiah.

Oh so only you get to call people insane. How clever.

It's not about me. It's about recognizing the insanity of thinking Jews who followed Jesus were misguided, when those men did more to teach the world about their God, than any other group in history.

My opinion? My opinion? I just cited the bible. You know, the word of God. And you're covering your eyes and pretending that it doesn't say what it says.

I'm not covering my eyes. God sprinkles his people with water after repentance. So,

be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. Eze.36:32

And that's what He did when people realized the innocent Messiah was put to death.

I was a cop, you know. I allowed injustice to myself on occasion with exacting judgement even though I had the power and authority to do so. It didn't make me the messiah either. Or maybe I am, who knows...

Or maybe you're a follower of the Messiah and aren't aware of it yet.

Meanwhile you ignore actual messianic prophecy that has been fulfilled in our lifetime. Because it doesn't validate your beliefs.

Oh I'm not ignoring what the Messiah said the scriptures say about himself. I was a cop too and like you, tempered my authority to enforce the laws of my State with a lot of mercy. Even so, it took me a long time to understand Paul when he said,

the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless  1Tim.1:9

[Fenris]

Strange hill to die on. They're different challenges, but one doesn't have to be more or less challenging than the other. They're both challenging.

As a person with faith who also attempts to follow all of the bible's laws, I find that believing in God is the easy part.

The disagreement between Paul and the Jerusalem church on circumcision is what ended defining Christianity. Sure it was easier. No circumcisions and no following of biblical law.