What Makes A Person Jewish?

[Athanasius]

Secondarily, Christians believe that Jesus is God, but it isn't an empirical fact.

So what? You're on a Christian forum.

[Fenris]

So what? You're on a Christian forum.

And we discuss our beliefs. Which are not the same as facts. Heck, you guys can't all agree amongst yourselves on some matters.

[Athanasius]

And we discuss our beliefs. Which are not the same as facts. Heck, you guys can't all agree amongst yourselves on some matters.

And?

[RabbiKnife]

So what? You're on a Christian forum.

And we discuss our beliefs. Which are not the same as facts. Heck, you guys can't all agree amongst yourselves on some matters.

Ok

The irony of that is funny!

[Redeemed]

First, I've been reading most of the threads and posts here even though I haven't responded yet. The "Christians find Jesus in every verse." ( or whatever the title is ) was on my mind when I posted. Hence the smiley face at the end of my post.

Second, (hey this is fun  ) jesting or not though, the Bible is all about God and His dealings/relationship with His creations. 
Christians believe that Jesus is God just as Jews believe that God is God. Empirical fact? It's all about faith as you well know, eh? 
So, yeah, no difference in my eyes. But, no, I don't find Jesus in every verse. Which is weird.

Good to read others and your posts. I may not agree with you on certain things obviously, but I love the way you phrase things and you've always made me think and question. That's a very good thing.
I've been great actually. Thanks for asking.

I miss the old Gene Wilder avatar.

[Fenris]

Good to read others and your posts. I may not agree with you on certain things obviously, but I love the way you phrase things and you've always made me think and question. That's a very good thing.
I've been great actually. Thanks for asking.

I miss the old Gene Wilder avatar.

RK started talking about the "Jewish space laser" so I used this avatar. I'll switch back at some point.

[journeyman]

But it doesn't matter. They're still blessed.

Ok. I disagree for the reason cited.

Neither Genesis 1 not Gensis 12 have anything to do with Jesus.

I wasn't referring to Gen.1 as a reference to Jesus, but now that you mention it, I read a commentary on that chapter years ago by a rabbi (can't remember his name) who said Gen.1 contains all of human hustory from beginning to end. His reasoning was profound. Anyway in that respect, yes it does refer to Jesus.

Gen.12 says Jewish people will be a blessing to the world and since the Messiah brings peace to the world, he must be at least as important as the Jewish person who invented flex straw.

You know the game? Whack a mole? That's what this is. Every time I say something, you change the subject.

The subject is, Gen.12 says, Abrahan and his descendants will be a blessing to gentiles. I understand your belief that God was speaking of every Jew who has ever lived that was an asset to humanity, except for the Messiah.

I'm a Jewish person. Why aren't you listening to me?

I am listening to you. You have no more regard for Jesus than Karl Marx.

Ecclesiastes 12 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

Or don't and be blessed forever anyway?

Again, Mr whack a amole, the Jewish and Christian concept of the messiah are not the same. You don't even believe that there will be another temple in Jerusalem, so what are you talking about?

I meant the concepts, not the particulars. Yes, I don't believe God will inhabit a man made temple in the future, or that everyone on earth as we now know it will live in peace.

Which has nothing to do with evicting sinners. Whack a mole x3

I know you don't believe the Messiah will vengence against the unrepentant who sinned against him. I'm sure others think it's whack a mole too.

[Fenris]

I wasn't referring to Gen.1 as a reference to Jesus

I'm a bit overtired here as I've just returned from an amazing two week trip to Israel. While my thoughts are fresh I'll jot them down. You're arguing over whether Jesus fulfilled some prophecy or other when the literal, actual words of the prophets is being fulfilled today in the holy land. Jewish exiles have been gathered from over 100 lands back to Israel, as the prophets said would happen all over Isaiah and Ezekiel and Amos and on and on. The country is an economic and technological and military superpower. It's also the only first world country in the world with a positive birthrate. These are the blessings as promised by God in Lev 26 and Deut 28. If the literal fulfillment of biblical promises is not enough for you then we're just wasting time here.

[Redeemed]

Why would you think that God fulfilling His promises to continue to bless Israel and Jesus fulfilling prophecy, and actually being God, can't both be true?

One doesn't cancel out the other in my and most Christians minds.

I know that you don't believe that Jesus is God or any of the NT writings and I'm not foolish enough to believe that I'll convince you otherwise.   

Just saying: This is OUR perspective and wholehearted belief.
 

[Fenris]

Why would you think that God fulfilling His promises to continue to bless Israel and Jesus fulfilling prophecy, and actually being God, can't both be true?

At most one of us is right. (The possibility exists that we're both wrong, of course. Maybe the Muslims are right. Or the followers of Cthulhu. But I digress...) Either Jesus is God and one must accept his sacrifice as atoning for the sins of mankind, or he isn't. Similarly, either God's covenant with national Israel at Sinai as a specific people to whom the laws of the bible applies and remains in effect, or it does not. I don't see how one threads the needle that "actually we're all correct".

My son went to a study program for a year after high school (as many religious Jews do) and was so enthralled with the experience that he stayed and became a citizen. Because of Covid, we were not able to see what led him to that outcome. Until this trip. We spent time at his school. It's in a Yishuv (in English one would call it a "settlement" but that's a loaded term so I'm not using it.) There are several thousand people living there, all around the school which is also the community center. They study bible from early morning to late at night; The books of Moses, the prophets, the Mishna, the Talmud, Midrash, Jewish law, philosophy, theology, and so on. It has an almost fairy tale feeling to it. The energy there is so warm and so positive, I've never experienced anything like it in my life. There's no analogue in this country, or indeed in any other.

If Jews are correct, it's an intensely holy and spiritual place. It certainly felt that way to me.

If Christians are right, it's all a trivial exercise.

One doesn't cancel out the other in my and most Christians minds.

I wouldn't even say that a majority of the people in this forum would agree with you. Let alone in Protestantism and certainly in Catholicism which is much more supercessionist. 

I know that you don't believe that Jesus is God or any of the NT writings and I'm not foolish enough to believe that I'll convince you otherwise.   

I'm not trying to convince anyone here otherwise.

[Redeemed]

At most one of us is right. (The possibility exists that we're both wrong, of course.)

I agree.

I don't see how one threads the needle that "actually we're all correct".

Me either.

My son went to a study program for a year after high school (as many religious Jews do) and was so enthralled with the experience that he stayed and became a citizen. 

I think that's beautiful man. Awesome.

If Jews are correct, it's an intensely holy and spiritual place. It certainly felt that way to me.

If Christians are right, it's all a trivial exercise.

I personally believe that God judges our hearts and our love for Him and others. I guess we'll find out on judgement day. Which you don't is actually think is a thing. 

I wouldn't even say that a majority of the people in this forum would agree with you. Let alone in Protestantism and certainly in Catholicism which is much more supercessionist. 

Maybe you're right and I should have said most of the Christians I know and have known personally.
But, I think you would be surprised.

I'm not trying to convince anyone here otherwise.

I know.

[journeyman]

I wasn't referring to Gen.1 as a reference to Jesus

I'm a bit overtired here as I've just returned from an amazing two week trip to Israel. While my thoughts are fresh I'll jot them down. You're arguing over whether Jesus fulfilled some prophecy or other when the literal, actual words of the prophets is being fulfilled today in the holy land. Jewish exiles have been gathered from over 100 lands back to Israel, as the prophets said would happen all over Isaiah and Ezekiel and Amos and on and on. The country is an economic and technological and military superpower. It's also the only first world country in the world with a positive birthrate. These are the blessings as promised by God in Lev 26 and Deut 28. If the literal fulfillment of biblical promises is not enough for you then we're just wasting time here.

I see someone who can feed thiusands with little and someone who defeated death as an economic and military Superpower. Glad ya had a nice trip. Other than that, we are wasting our time.

[Fenris]

I see someone who can feed thiusands with little and someone who defeated death

Which has nothing to do with the initial topic. Or Judaism. Or messianic prophecy. Or God's blessings. It's important to you, personally, so you bring it up again and again. But it contributes nothing to the discussion and means nothing to me.

I answered your initial question on the first page. But it wasn't the answer that you were looking for. I suppose you think that Jews shouldn't get to decide who is Jewish. Maybe Christians should decide that. Or maybe you personally should decide. Yes, that's probably it.

[journeyman]

Which has nothing to do with the initial topic. Or Judaism. Or messianic prophecy. Or God's blessings. It's important to you, personally, so you bring it up again and again. But it contributes nothing to the discussion and means nothing to me.

I just wondered if you considered the men who wrote the NT as Jewish. 

I answered your initial question on the first page. But it wasn't the answer that you were looking for. I suppose you think that Jews shouldn't get to decide who is Jewish. Maybe Christians should decide that. Or maybe you personally should decide. Yes, that's probably it.

Actually, my point has always been Jews who penned the NT knew what a Jew was and considered themselves such.
I understand your belief that "no one knows who wrote the NT, but if they were Jews they were heretics."  I get it.

[Fenris]

I just wondered if you considered the men who wrote the NT as Jewish.

As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when, Or where. We also don't know what the original Jewish followers of Jesus actually believed because all we have is the NT which is of unclear origin.

If it was written by people who were born Jews then yes, they remained Jews. Apostate Jews, but Jews nonetheless.

That doesn't make them infallible any more than Karl Marx was.

Actually, my point has always been Jews who penned the NT knew what a Jew was and considered themselves such.

So do Reform and Reconstructionist Jews today. And guess what? I think they're wrong also.

I see someone who can feed thiusands with little and someone who defeated death

Having considered, I'm going to revisit this again. Because it's so fundamental to our differences and really why we're talking at each other.

A Jew (me, specifically, in this case) would say that the modern day state of Israel is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy, to wit, (and what follows is not even a complete list)

Deut 30 When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors.

Isaiah 11: He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

Isaiah 43: “Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your seed from the east and gather you from the west. I shall say to the north, ‘Give up,’ and to the south, ‘Do not hold back, bring My sons from far and My daughters from the end of the earth.’ ”

Jeremiah 23: “Therefore behold, days shall come, says God, that they shall no longer say, ‘As God lives who has taken up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt;’ but ‘As God lives who has taken up and brought the seed of the House of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where He had banished them,’ and they shall dwell in their land.”

Jeremiah 29  And I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will return your captivity and gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will return you to the place whence I exiled you.

Ezekiel 37 :‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land

Ezekiel 39: “…Now I shall bring back the captivity of Jacob and I shall have compassion on the whole House of Israel, and I shall be zealous for My holy Name… When I shall have returned them from the nations and gathered them from the lands of their enemies… They shall know that I am God, their God, in that I exiled them to the nations and gathered them unto their land, and I will not leave any one of them there. I will no more hide My face from them, as I will pour out My spirit upon the House of Israel…”

Amos 9 “I shall return the captivity of My people Israel and they shall build the waste cities and settle… I shall plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked out of their land that I have given them, says the Lord, your God.”



And your response is "But Jesus fed a lot of people."

Don't you see why this is so underwhelming to me?

Then I point out that God's blessings are literally manifest in the state of Israel being an economic and military superpower, for example

Lev 26 ‘If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees their fruit. Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in safety in your land.

I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid. I will remove wild beasts from the land, and the sword will not pass through your country. You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you.

and Deut 28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.

 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.

 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

 The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.

 The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

These are tremendous accomplishments for a nation only 70 someodd years old.

And your response was "But Jesus defeated death".

On the one hand, we have something that was promised by God Himself, and it can be seen and quantified.

On the other is claim that isn't even promised in the bible and has to be accepted as an act of faith from a book of unknown origin.

I understand your beliefs. Do you understand mine?