What Makes A Person Jewish?

[Fenris]

I understand what you're saying, but from your perspective, bad conduct isn't reason to bar a circumcised Jew from the promised land, yet it happened to all (save two) who left Egypt.

I didn't say that. Obviously bad conduct was enough to bar people from entering the promised land. That has nothing to do with their status of being blessed, because, again, Balaam was not allowed to curse them.

The Jewish people came to understand that the covenant God made with Abrahan was by faith,

I think you mean "Christian people" not "Jewish people". Jews understand that the covenant with God involves actions, not faith, and this understanding comes from the literal text of the bible itself. Do I need to repost the relevant passages from the bible again?

Furthermore, those Jews came to realize Moses (and later Joshus) circumcised the Israelites because of that covenant of faith made with Abraham.

God's covenant with Abraham was a covenant of action, not faith. Are we reading the same book here?

The Jews also came to know that unquenchable fire is synonymous with the presence of God.

I'm Jewish and I've never heard this. Where are you getting all these strange ideas on what Jews understand or what Jews believe? From Sunday school?

Many will perish in his presence on judgment day.

I rather think not.

[Arikel88]

He accepts it and wants it. God recognizes his people and his people will folow him no matter what.

[journeyman]

I didn't say that. Obviously bad conduct was enough to bar people from entering the promised land. That has nothing to do with their status of being blessed, because, again, Balaam was not allowed to curse them.

Balaam is a strange character. Personally, I'm not a proponent of voodoo, but I do believe people can bring a curse upon themselves,

Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. Exo.20:23

Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen! Deu.27:26

I think you mean "Christian people" not "Jewish people". Jews understand that the covenant with God involves actions, not faith, and this understanding comes from the literal text of the bible itself. Do I need to repost the relevant passages from the bible again?

God's covenant with Abraham was a covenant of action, not faith. Are we reading the same book here?

Action follows faith.

I'm Jewish and I've never heard this. Where are you getting all these strange ideas on what Jews understand or what Jews believe? From Sunday school?

I rather think not.

I'm getting it from what the Messiah and his students said about the scriptures.

[Fenris]

Balaam is a strange character.

What an easy way to just ignore the whole matter. Every story, every word, every letter in the bible was put there by God for a reason. We don't get to say "well, that's strange, let's just ignore it".

but I do believe people can bring a curse upon themselves,

Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold. Exo.20:23

Quoting this verse is interesting, because it begins with "Do not make any gods to be alongside me". Hmm.

The word "curse" does not appear in the chapter either.

Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen! Deu.27:26

Who upholds the bible's laws (that is, attests to their truth and permanence) and carries them out (Keeping them and doing them even today)? The Jews.

The Jewish people came to understand

those Jews came to realize

The Jews also came to know

I can't speak for all Jews, but I have come to realize that non-Jews who talk about what Jews believe or what Jews think tend to know very little about Judaism.

I'm getting it from what the Messiah and his students said about the scriptures.

That's fine. But it's not from my bible.

[Fenris]

He accepts it and wants it. God recognizes his people and his people will folow him no matter what.

Helloooo new person! Welcome to BF!

[journeyman]

What an easy way to just ignore the whole matter. Every story, every word, every letter in the bible was put there by God for a reason. We don't get to say "well, that's strange, let's just ignore it".

I didn't ignore it. I said the Jews brought a curse on themselves after Balaam wasn't allowed to.

Quoting this verse is interesting, because it begins with "Do not make any gods to be alongside me". Hmm.

I didn't make Jesus. He made me. 😊

The word "curse" does not appear in the chapter either.

That's why I cited  Deu.27:26, which you omitted. God has a reason.

Who upholds the bible's laws (that is, attests to their truth and permanence) and carries them out (Keeping them and doing them even today)? The Jews.

Some do some don't.

I can't speak for all Jews, but I have come to realize that non-Jews who talk about what Jews believe or what Jews think tend to know very little about Judaism.

Then please don't speak for the Jews who wrote the NT, because they were born in it.

That's fine. But it's not from my bible.

It was to them. It's interesting though, how you seem to feel that gentiles "find Jesus in the OT" from their imagination.

Got a question for you. In your opinion, did the Jews who followed Jesus remain Jews?

[Fenris]

I didn't ignore it. I said the Jews brought a curse on themselves after Balaam wasn't allowed to.

But the Jews had sinned prior to their encounter with Balaam, serious sins,  and he was not permitted to curse them "because they are blessed".

I didn't make Jesus.

No, you didn't.

That's why I cited  Deu.27:26, which you omitted. God has a reason.

Deut 27 is not talking about the incident in Exodus, but future incidents. The word "curse" does not appear in the chapter in Exodus.

Some do some don't.

Some do. And no Christians do.

Then please don't speak for the Jews who wrote the NT, because they were born in it.

We don't know who wrote the NT. Even assuming it was Jews, so what? Karl Marx again.

It's interesting though, how you seem to feel that gentiles "find Jesus in the OT" from their imagination.

It's nothing remarkable. I too have an imagination and can find Jesus in the OT. Or any other religious figure I desire. That doesn't make it true.

Got a question for you. In your opinion, did the Jews who followed Jesus remain Jews?

Yes. There is no opt-out clause in Judaism. I can't speak for Jesus's original followers because it isn't clear to me what they actually believed, but Jews who follow Jesus are apostates and accountable for their behavior.

[journeyman]

But the Jews had sinned prior to their encounter with Balaam, serious sins,  and he was not permitted to curse them "because they are blessed".

I don't think anyone who commit serious sins, yet is left alive, knows how blessed he is.

Deut 27 is not talking about the incident in Exodus, but future incidents. The word "curse" does not appear in the chapter in Exodus.

Okay. Only future Jews could be cursed as a result of their conduct.

Some do. And no Christians do.

I guess not the way you must.

We don't know who wrote the NT. Even assuming it was Jews, so what? Karl Marx again.

I get it. You just can't accept that your God is worshipped by the gentile world because of the Stooges.

It's nothing remarkable. I too have an imagination and can find Jesus in the OT. Or any other religious figure I desire. That doesn't make it true.

I meant what's interesting is, you think it's the Christians' imagination, but the Christian got it from 2000 years old Jewish manuscripts.

Yes. There is no opt-out clause in Judaism. I can't speak for Jesus's original followers because it isn't clear to me what they actually believed, but Jews who follow Jesus are apostates and accountable for their behavior.

Well, it's clear they thought of themselves as Jews.

[Fenris]

I don't think anyone who commit serious sins, yet is left alive, knows how blessed he is.

But you said people who sin are cursed. Now you say they are blessed.

You keep switching the definition of what words mean to fit your particular point at that moment.

Okay. Only future Jews could be cursed as a result of their conduct.

What does it mean to be "blessed" or "cursed"? You're using definitions on the fly.

I guess not the way you must.

Exactly!

I get it. You just can't accept that your God is worshipped by the gentile world because of the Stooges.

My view on this are far more nuanced than you think. But to tell me that "Some Jew said X, so now I must believe X" carries no weight with me. How gentiles react to something doesn't matter. It's the Jewish opinion that is binding on Jews.

I meant what's interesting is, you think it's the Christians' imagination, but the Christian got it from 2000 years old Jewish manuscripts.

As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when. Or where. It isn't even in Hebrew or Aramaic, but Greek, a language spoken by few Jews in the first century. But even the NT doesn't shoehorn Jesus into every passage in the bible.

Well, it's clear they thought of themselves as Jews.

But again, it's not clear to me what they actually believed. Jesus as the Jewish messiah, sent to evict the Romans, rebuild the temple, and ultimately usher in an era of world peace? Or Jesus as the gentile messiah, sent to be a final sacrifice to end sin for all time? Because the two aren't the same. It's the second view that prevailed in the Christian church.

[journeyman]

But you said people who sin not are cursed. Now you say they are blessed.

You keep switching the definition of what words mean to fit your particular point at that moment.

Everyone on earth is blessed by God,

And God blessed them.....Gen.1:28

What does it mean to be "blessed" or "cursed"? You're using definitions on the fly.

The effects of Gods' pleasure and displeasure are described in Deu.28

My view on this are far more nuanced than you think. But to tell me that "Some Jew said X, so now I must believe X" carries no weight with me. How gentiles react to something doesn't matter. It's the Jewish opinion that is binding on Jews.

That's ok. The NTs says,

We ought to obey God rather than men.
 Act.5:29

As I've already said, we don't know who wrote the NT. Or when. Or where. It isn't even in Hebrew or Aramaic, but Greek, a language spoken by few Jews in the first century. But even the NT doesn't shoehorn Jesus into every passage in the bible.

I don't play the, "How do scholars know" game. That's not how anyone can know anyway.

But again, it's not clear to me what they actually believed. Jesus as the Jewish messiah, sent to evict the Romans, rebuild the temple, and ultimately usher in an era of world peace? Or Jesus as the gentile messiah, sent to be a final sacrifice to end sin for all time? Because the two aren't the same. It's the second view that prevailed in the Christian church.

Yes they are the same, because the Messiah warned that he would evict sinners who refused to repent of their sins. He gives all people an opportunity. Why? Because that's the way his Father is.

[Fenris]

Everyone on earth is blessed by God,

And God blessed them.....Gen.1:28

Oh, so now everyone is blessed. How wonderful!

The effects of Gods' pleasure and displeasure are described in Deu.28

But this has nothing to do with Genesis 12. Or Genesis 1 as you handily mention above.

That's ok. The NTs says,

We ought to obey God rather than men.
 Act.5:29

But what does this mean? You're telling me that I should believe the NT. But you're a person, not God. Wouldn't listening to you be listening to a man and not God?

I don't play the, "How do scholars know" game.

If our eternal soul is at stake, it seems to me it should be very important to weigh the evidence carefully.

Yes they are the same,

They are very clearly not the same.

Listen, you can tell me that you believe the Jewish concept of the messiah is wrong. But you can't tell me that it isn't different from what Christians believe, because it very clearly is not the same thing.

because the Messiah warned that he would evict sinners who refused to repent of their sins.

But the messiah's job isn't to evict sinners.

[journeyman]

Oh, so now everyone is blessed. How wonderful!

Yes it is, but many don't believe every good thing they have is blessing from God.

But this has nothing to do with Genesis 12. Or Genesis 1 as you handily mention above.

Gen.12 has everything to do with God blessing everyone on earth, because the Messiah, Abrahams descendant, teaches the world about God and nobody knows God better than Jesus.

But what does this mean? You're telling me that I should believe the NT. But you're a person, not God. Wouldn't listening to you be listening to a man and not God?

It would be if I was speakinh from my own imagination, but God chose to speak to mankind through the Jewish people.

If our eternal soul is at stake, it seems to me it should be very important to weigh the evidence carefully.

I agree.

My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;...Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Pro.2:1,5

They are very clearly not the same.

Listen, you can tell me that you believe the Jewish concept of the messiah is wrong. But you can't tell me that it isn't different from what Christians believe, because it very clearly is not the same thing.

The Jewish concept with respect to how the Messiah will build Gods' Temple and bring peace to mankind isn't wrong. He taught the Temple where God dwells is within the hearts of his people and he gives us great peace.

But the messiah's job isn't to evict sinners.

That's what the Romans must have thought when they mocked him, but like many, they mistook his great love and patience toward people who despised him, for impotance.

[Fenris]

Yes it is, but many don't believe every good thing they have is blessing from God.

But it doesn't matter. They're still blessed.

Gen.12 has everything to do with God blessing everyone on earth, because the Messiah, Abrahams descendant, teaches the world about God and nobody knows God better than Jesus.

Neither Genesis 1 not Gensis 12 have anything to do with Jesus.

You know the game? Whack a mole? That's what this is. Every time I say something, you change the subject.

It would be if I was speakinh from my own imagination, but God chose to speak to mankind through the Jewish people.

I'm a Jewish person. Why aren't you listening to me?

I agree.

My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;...Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Pro.2:1,5

Ecclesiastes 12 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

The Jewish concept with respect to how the Messiah will build Gods' Temple and bring peace to mankind isn't wrong.

Again, Mr whack a amole, the Jewish and Christian concept of the messiah are not the same. You don't even believe that there will be another temple in Jerusalem, so what are you talking about?

That's what the Romans must have thought when they mocked him, but like many, they mistook his great love and patience toward people who despised him, for impotance.

Which has nothing to do with evicting sinners. Whack a mole x3

[Redeemed]

Neither Genesis 1 not Gensis 12 have anything to do with Jesus.

Well, Jesus is God so...

 

[Fenris]

Well, Jesus is God so...

I was referring to the blessings given to all of mankind generally (Gen 1) and to Abram (not yet Abraham!) and his descendants specifically (Gen 12).

Secondarily, Christians believe that Jesus is God, but it isn't an empirical fact.

Thirdly, that still doesn't justify shoehorning him into every single biblical verse, something that even the NT authors did not do.

Fourth, I'm glad to see greater forum participation by the old members that I haven't seen in a while. How are ya?!