What Makes A Person Jewish?

[journeyman]

There's no reason to believe that from the text. It seems more rather that Abraham didn't want his son marrying into a cursed people.

Gen 24

Abraham was now a very old man, and the Lord had blessed him in every way. One day Abraham said to his oldest servant, the man in charge of his household, “Take an oath by putting your hand under my thigh. Swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and earth, that you will not allow my son to marry one of these local Canaanite women. Go instead to my homeland, to my relatives, and find a wife there for my son Isaac.”

Cross reference with Gen 9

When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.”

It seems Abraham didn't want Isaac  to marry an idolater. Isaac  does the same thing when he sends Jacob to uncle Laban, but later, Rachel steals Labans gods, so that's a little odd, because it seems Laban is also an idolater.

Who says I don't have to? Of course I have to. Every Jew is expected to know biblical law and follow it.

I'm not disagreeing with you. You said a Jewish person remains chosen regardless of conduct because of his mothers lineage.

Have you ever considered that from a strictly human standpoint, these stories from the Bible are contrary to justice. For instance, how fair is it to curse an entire race of people because of what one man did? Noah cursed Hams son for what Ham did? That's not fair, unless Canaan is as his father is.

[Fenris]

It seems Abraham didn't want Isaac  to marry an idolater. Isaac  does the same thing when he sends Jacob to uncle Laban, but later, Rachel steals Labans gods, so that's a little odd, because it seems Laban is also an idolater.

Umm everyone was idolatrous back then. I just gave you a perfectly good reason, backed up by biblical text, for why Abraham didn't want his son to marry a Canaanite. They are explicitly cursed, whereas Abraham and his descendants were blessed.

Why are you ignoring it?

I'm not disagreeing with you. You said a Jewish person remains chosen regardless of conduct because of his mothers lineage.

The Jews are "chosen" for additional responsibilities, not additional benefits. If a Jew doesn't measure up, they are falling short and will be judged by God, as the bible tells us.

Have you ever considered that from a strictly human standpoint, these stories from the Bible are contrary to justice.

It is God's word. God is not accountable to us for his justice.

There are plenty of Christians who have told me that there are Nazis who were devout Christians that are now in heaven, even as their Jewish victims are in hell. This doesn't seem justice to me either. But it is following the rules of your bible.

For instance, how fair is it to curse an entire race of people because of what one man did?

Why not? God blessed an entire race of people for what Abraham did.

[journeyman]

Umm everyone was idolatrous back then. I just gave you a perfectly good reason, backed up by biblical text, for why Abraham didn't want his son to marry a Canaanite. They are explicitly cursed, whereas Abraham and his descendants were blessed.

Why are you ignoring it?

I'm not ignoring it. I'm trying to make sense of it, because when God said,

 I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11,

it didn't matter who their mothers were.

The Jews are "chosen" for additional responsibilities, not additional benefits. If a Jew doesn't measure up, they are falling short and will be judged by God, as the bible tells us.

This reminds me of the story Jesus told about hiring laborers throughout the day at the same wage.

It is God's word. God is not accountable to us for his justice.

I never said he was.

There are plenty of Christians who have told me that there are Nazis who were devout Christians that are now in heaven, even as their Jewish victims are in hell. This doesn't seem justice to me either. But it is following the rules of your bible.

I'm happy that you've examined the rules of my Bible. I'm sorry that is your conclusion.

Why not? God blessed an entire race of people for what Abraham did.

I've already shown that can't be for the reason you think. It seems the promise is on the faithful, because the Lord said,

Because they have not followed me wholeheartedly, not one of the men twenty years old and upward who came from Egypt will see the land that I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, except Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite, and Joshua son of Nun, for they followed the LORD wholeheartedly.' Num.32:11-12

[Fenris]

I'm not ignoring it. I'm trying to make sense of it, because when God said,

 I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11,

it didn't matter who their mothers were.

That was the generation that died in the desert. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

This reminds me of the story Jesus told about hiring laborers throughout the day at the same wage.

Again, I don't see what it has to do with this discussion.

I never said he was.

And yet you asked how God's word could be justice.

I've already shown that can't be for the reason you think. It seems the promise is on the faithful, because the Lord said,

Because they have not followed me wholeheartedly, not one of the men twenty years old and upward who came from Egypt will see the land that I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, except Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite, and Joshua son of Nun, for they followed the LORD wholeheartedly.' Num.32:11-12

No, the blessing is on the people. Allow me to point your attention to Numbers 22:12. This is after the sin of the golden calf, and after the sins of the spies, when God decreed that the entire generation was fated to die in the desert. Balaam wishes to curse the Israelites. God tells him "You shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.”

I thought you were searching for information. I have answered all your questions. Yet you seem unhappy with my answers and just want to argue.

[journeyman]

That was the generation that died in the desert....

It doesn't matter when it was because the promise was to all of Abrahams seed, so that poses at first glance a contradiction, as the Jewish people who fell in the wilderness were excluded.

Again, I don't see what it has to do with this discussion.

Just an observation of how extra duty yields the same reward.

And yet you asked how God's word could be justice.

A question isn't a disagreement. It's a search for agreement I want to know why God thinks the way he does and when I find out, I hope I keep my hand near my mouth.

No, the blessing is on the people. Allow me to point your attention to Numbers 22:12. This is after the sin of the golden calf, and after the sins of the spies, when God decreed that the entire generation was fated to die in the desert. Balaam wishes to curse the Israelites. God tells him "You shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.”

I thought you were searching for information. I have answered all your questions. Yet you seem unhappy with my answers and just want to argue.

I am searching for information. I'm not satisfied with your answers because you seem to be focused on one positive aspect of Gods relationship with his people, such as Num.22:12, but then seem to avoid the fact that after Baal Peor, God killing thousands of idolatrous Jews seems contrary to his covenant with Abraham. It seems contrary, unless Gods covenant with Abraham was one of faith, which is taught to offspring, not inherited.

If we disagree theologically, I hope when Messiah returns, he greets us both in mercy and I believe he will if we have shown mercy.
May God bless.

[Fenris]

It doesn't matter when it was because the promise was to all of Abrahams seed, so that poses at first glance a contradiction, as the Jewish people who fell in the wilderness were excluded.

As per Numbers 22, they were not excluded.

Just an observation of how extra duty yields the same reward.

Nobody is talking about rewards.

A question isn't a disagreement. It's a search for agreement I want to know why God thinks the way he does and when I find out, I hope I keep my hand near my mouth.

Sometimes we don't get to find out why God does things.

I am searching for information. I'm not satisfied with your answers because you seem to be focused on one positive aspect of Gods relationship with his people, such as Num.22:12, but then seem to avoid the fact that after Baal Peor, God killing thousands of idolatrous Jews seems contrary to his covenant with Abraham. It seems contrary, unless Gods covenant with Abraham was one of faith, which is taught to offspring, not inherited.

The blessing is on the descendants. This blessing does not render individuals immune from the consequences of their behavior. Yet, they remain blessed. The generation fated to die in the desert was still blessed, which is why God forbade Balaam from cursing them. This is nothing mysterious, it's the plain text of the bible.

You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.

If we disagree theologically, I hope when Messiah returns, he greets us both in mercy and I believe he will if we have shown mercy.

Or comes the first time.

May God bless.

And you as well.

[journeyman]

As per Numbers 22, they were not excluded. [/quote]Then I'll just say they didn't get in.

Nobody is talking about rewards.

It wasn't my intention to angle this conversation that way.

Sometimes we don't get to find out why God does things.

That's true and sometimes we don't find out because we never ask,

Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. Pro.2:5

The blessing is on the descendants. This blessing does not render individuals immune from the consequences of their behavior. Yet, they remain blessed. The generation fated to die in the desert was still blessed, which is why God forbade Balaam from cursing them. This is nothing mysterious, it's the plain text of the bible.

Dying because of ones own sins is also a curse.

You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.

I understand that "bad things" happen to good people. Bad things happen to bad people also. It sounds like Gods covenant with Abraham had something to do with those who humble themselves,

If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob Lev.26:41-42

It would be terrible if someone thought God would remember his agreement with Abraham no matter how he lived, until judgment fell and it did matter.

Or comes the first time.

I'm grateful one Jew taught me by the rejection of himself, how terribly the Jewish people have suffered because of their faith in God.

[Fenris]

Dying because of ones own sins is also a curse.

Everybody dies. By your definition, that means everyone is cursed. Including Abraham.

I understand that "bad things" happen to good people.

I'm going to say this again, because you ignored it.

You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.

It sounds like Gods covenant with Abraham had something to do with those who humble themselves,

God didn't say this to Abraham. Why are you adding things to the bible?

If then, their clogged heart becomes humbled, then, [their sufferings] will gain appeasement for their iniquity and I will remember My covenant [with] Jacob Lev.26:41-42

This is talking about exile. It says "covenant", not blessing.

Words, they mean things.

It would be terrible if someone thought God would remember his agreement with Abraham no matter how he lived

God's blessing to Abraham had no conditions attached.

I'm grateful one Jew taught me by the rejection of himself, how terribly the Jewish people have suffered because of their faith in God.

I don't even know what this means.

[journeyman]

Everybody dies. By your definition, that means everyone is cursed. Including Abraham.

My definition is, Dying in iniquity = Cursed. Abraham wasn't cursed because he lived by his faith in God.

I'm going to say this again, because you ignored it.

You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things.

To me, it means all of those things and much more, because the Holy Land flows with milk and honey and Gods' people are safe from harm.
Actually, I'm blessed by God daily and if he has more blessings for me in the future, I'm ok with that.

It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.[/i]

That's what Jesus has been to all nations. 😊

God didn't say this to Abraham. Why are you adding things to the bible?

I'm not. I said it seems that way. It seems that way because Abraham believed God. Abraham was "chosen" because he believed God. And Lev. says God will remember his covenant with Abraham...after repentance.

This is talking about exile. It says "covenant", not blessing.

Words, they mean things.

And one word leads to another.

God's blessing to Abraham had no conditions attached.

That's right. No law. He just lived by faith in God.

I don't even know what this means.

It means people who hate God will hate his children.

[Fenris]

My definition is, Dying in iniquity = Cursed.

The bible gives no such definition. You just made that up.

I'm going to make up my own definition. I think that "blessed" means the person has more than 1 billion dollars. But it has to be in US currency. So anyone who lived prior to 1776 could not be blessed by my definition.

This is fun!

To me, it means all of those things and much more

It means what the bible says. Not more than what the bible says.

Deut 4 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it

Prov 30 Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

But I guess you know better.

That's what Jesus has been to all nations.

Jesus was fruitful and inherited the land of Israel? Fascinating.

I'm not. I said it seems that way. It seems that way because Abraham believed God. Abraham was "chosen" because he believed God.

Abaraham was "chosen" because he was a moral person.  Genesis 18: For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just

That's about his covenant with God. It has nothing to do with God blessing Abraham, which is a different matter entirely and based on (then Abram's) obedience to God. See Gen 12:  The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing."

And Lev. says God will remember his covenant with Abraham...after repentance.

Yes, He will remember the covenant. Which is a different thing than the blessing, as I just showed you.

A covenant is a pact or an agreement. Words, they mean things.

That's right. No law. He just lived by faith in God.

That's weird, because Gen 26 said that Abraham did keep the law. "Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions."

It means people who hate God will hate his children.

A lot of people hate the Jews. Not just now, but historically also. What does that mean to you?

[journeyman]

The bible gives no such definition. You just made that up.

I'm going to make up my own definition. I think that "blessed" means the person has more than 1 billion dollars. But it has to be in US currency. So anyone who lived prior to 1776 could not be blessed by my definition.

This is fun!

I'm not making anything up. Deut.27 & 28 show what ut is to be cursed and why and Eze.18 speaks of people who die in their iniquity, so it's important to our Lord.

It means what the bible says. Not more than what the bible says.

Deut 4 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it

Prov 30 Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

But I guess you know better.

I understand that you don't think an agreement with God can also be a blessing. I disagree with you.

Jesus was fruitful and inherited the land of Israel? Fascinating.

Yes it is fascinating. He's expecting a return on his investment too.

Abaraham was "chosen" because he was a moral person.  Genesis 18: For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just

No. Abraham was chosen because he believed God and his faith motivated his conduct, but Abraham wasn't chosen for his morality,

enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.Psa.143:2

And that's the man after Gods' heart. It's no different for anyone else,

Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: Deu.9:4

That's about his covenant with God. It has nothing to do with God blessing Abraham, which is a different matter entirely and based on (then Abram's) obedience to God. See Gen 12:  The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing."

Yes, He will remember the covenant. Which is a different thing than the blessing, as I just showed you.

A covenant is a pact or an agreement. Words, they mean things.

I see Gods' covenant as a great blessing. I understand you disagree.

That's weird, because Gen 26 said that Abraham did keep the law. "Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions."

I was referring to the law God gave through Moses.

A lot of people hate the Jews. Not just now, but historically also. What does that mean to you?

It means Jesus was persecuted unjustly. So were the Prophets before him and Apostles after.

[Fenris]

I'm not making anything up. Deut.27 & 28 show what ut is to be cursed

Which says nothing about "Dying in iniquity". You just made that up.

and why and Eze.18 speaks of people who die in their iniquity.

Which does not talk about blessings.

What you did was take two different chapters about different topics, and juxtaposed them because it made you happy.

I understand that you don't think an agreement with God can also be a blessing.

Yes. Because the bible doesn't say that it is. Your imagination is not a substitute for God's word.

Yes it is fascinating. He's expecting a return on his investment too.

Even more fascinating.

No. Abraham was chosen because he believed God and his faith motivated his conduct, but Abraham wasn't chosen for his morality,

Genesis 18 says otherwise.

And that's the man after Gods' heart. It's no different for anyone else,

Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: Deu.9:4

Different topic, different subject, has nothing to do with what God said in Gen 18.

I see Gods' covenant as a great blessing.

But that isn't what the bible says. You are literally substituting your own thoughts in place of what God said.

I was referring to the law God gave through Moses.

Which it looks like Abraham kept.

It means Jesus was persecuted unjustly. So were the Prophets before him and Apostles after.

SO it's the Jews fault that people hate the Jews. Deep, very deep.

[journeyman]

Which says nothing about "Dying in iniquity". You just made that up.

Which does not talk about blessings.

What you did was take two different chapters about different topics, and juxtaposed them because it made you happy.

Yes. Because the bible doesn't say that it is. Your imagination is not a substitute for God's word.

Genesis 18 says otherwise.

Different topic, different subject, has nothing to do with what God said in Gen 18.

But that isn't what the bible says. You are literally substituting your own thoughts in place of what God said.

Which it looks like Abraham kept.

Which it looks like Abraham being blessed apart from said law makes blessing contingent on keeping said law unnecessary.

SO it's the Jews fault that people hate the Jews. Deep, very deep.

Trusting God isn't a fault.

[Fenris]

Which it looks like Abraham being blessed apart from said law makes blessing contingent on keeping said law unnecessary.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Why don't you address all the extra biblical stuff you invented?

Trusting God isn't a fault.

I have no idea what you mean here either.

[journeyman]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Why don't you address all the extra biblical stuff you invented?

There's nothing extra biblical about people agreeing with God and being blessed because of it. Nor is it extra biblical how faith alters conduct.

I have no idea what you mean here either.

Guess not, but I never even suggested the beating Jesus got was his fault, so you are way off the mark.