What Makes A Person Jewish?

[Fenris]

There's nothing extra biblical about people agreeing with God and being blessed because of it. Nor is it extra biblical how faith alters conduct.

Abraham's descendants were blessed simply for being his descendants. You disagree with this, which is not in the bible.

Guess not, but I never even suggested the beating Jesus got was his fault, so you are way off the mark.

How about the beating others Jews got?

[journeyman]

Abraham's descendants were blessed simply for being his descendants. You disagree with this, which is not in the bible.

Being swallowed in an earthquake for worshipping a golden calf isn't being blessed by God.

How about the beating others Jews got?

I said the prophets and apostles also suffered because of their testimony.

[Fenris]

Being swallowed in an earthquake for worshipping a golden calf isn't being blessed by God.

You just made that definition up. Again with this. It isn't in the bible, anywhere.

I said the prophets and apostles also suffered because of their testimony.

And what about Jews who were neither prophets nor apostles? You're ok with them being mistreated?

[journeyman]

You just made that definition up. Again with this. It isn't in the bible, anywhere.

I was actually thinking of Korah, but both are examples of Israelites being cursed.

And what about Jews who were neither prophets nor apostles? You're ok with them being mistreated?

I don't believe anyone should be mistreated. I believe anyone who mistreats another person sins against God.

[Fenris]

You just made that definition up. Again with this. It isn't in the bible, anywhere.

I was actually thinking of Korah, but both are examples of Israelites being cursed.

OK, so again. You said that "Being swallowed in an earthquake for worshipping a golden calf isn't being blessed by God."

I previously said that when Balaam wanted to curse the Jews, God forbade him. God specifically said that "...you shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.”

This took place after the episode of the golden calf. Yet God still says that they are blessed. Weird, right?

[journeyman]

OK, so again. You said that "Being swallowed in an earthquake for worshipping a golden calf isn't being blessed by God."

I previously said that when Balaam wanted to curse the Jews, God forbade him. God specifically said that "...you shall not curse the people, for they are blessed.”

This took place after the episode of the golden calf. Yet God still says that they are blessed. Weird, right?

I don't think it's weird to be blessed for not worshipping an idol and being put to death for it. Nor do I think it's strange to be blessed for not creating a munity against Gods' prophet and dying in an earthquake because of it.

Of course Balaam was forbidden from cursing Gods' people himself, but he wasn't forbidden from teaching Balak how to induce the Israelites into bringing a curse upon themselves.

On a personal note, this conversation is exactly like conversations I have within Christianity, where people teach God chooses his people by faith alone, which they believe means sinners don't need to repent to be saved.

[Fenris]

I don't think it's weird to be blessed for not worshipping an idol and being put to death for it. Nor do I think it's strange to be blessed for not creating a munity against Gods' prophet and dying in an earthquake because of it.

Has nothing to do with what I just said, or what the bible says.

Of course Balaam was forbidden from cursing Gods' people himself, but he wasn't forbidden from teaching Balak how to induce the Israelites into bringing a curse upon themselves.

No place does the bible say that they people were cursed for following Balak's inducement.

On a personal note, this conversation is exactly like conversations I have within Christianity, where people teach God chooses his people by faith alone, which they believe means sinners don't need to repent to be saved.

No place did I say that God chooses people by faith, nor did I say that sinners do not need to repent. As I said in this discussion a while ago, Abraham's descendants were blessed simply for being his descendants.

I gave a definition of what it means to be blessed, and I posted it twice already. Here's a third time.

You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.

[journeyman]

Has nothing to do with what I just said, or what the bible says.

Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deu.27:26

Amen?

No place does the bible say that they people were cursed for following Balak's inducement.

Yes it does,

And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun Num.25:4

he that is hanged is accursed of God Deu.21:23

Idol worshippers are under a curse no matter who they are or when they lived.

No place did I say that God chooses people by faith, nor did I say that sinners do not need to repent. As I said in this discussion a while ago, Abraham's descendants were blessed simply for being his descendants.

Yes and you believe Jewish people will continue in God' blessing indefinitely regardless of conduct.

I gave a definition of what it means to be blessed, and I posted it twice already. Here's a third time.

You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.

Replied to already.

[Fenris]

Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen. Deu.27:26

Amen?

Yes, I uphold the words of the law to do them. And you don't. Doesn't that make you the cursed one?

And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun Num.25:4

Word doesn't necessarily mean "hanged". Only the problematic KJV translates it so. NIV translates it as "expose them" and the primitive root יָקַע means to "dislocate" or "be alienated". But sure, pick the one translation that proves your specific theology.

he that is hanged is accursed of God Deu.21:23

The verse is saying not to leave a corpse hanging overnight.

Idol worshippers are under a curse no matter who they are or when they lived.

Yet, weirdly enough, after the sin of the golden calf, God still considered Israel to be blessed. I have said this several times already.

Yes and you believe Jewish people will continue in God' blessing indefinitely regardless of conduct.

And what does that blessing mean?

You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.

[journeyman]

Yes, I uphold the words of the law to do them. And you don't. Doesn't that make you the cursed one?

I understand the transgression of the law. Crucifying an innocent man is transgressing the law, for which I'm truly sorry for my sins and have repented of them.

Word doesn't necessarily mean "hanged". Only the problematic KJV translates it so. NIV translates it as "expose them" and the primitive root יָקַע means to "dislocate" or "be alienated". But sure, pick the one translation that proves your specific theology.

Heb. הוֹקַע. This refers to [death by] hanging, as we find with the sons of Saul [where a similar expression is used,] “and we shall hang them (הוֹקַעֲנוּם) for the Lord” (II Sam. 21:6), and there hanging is specifically mentioned. Idolatry is [punishable] by stoning, and all those stoned are also hanged [as is stated in Sanh. 45b according to Rabbi Eliezer]. (Rashis'commentary)

The verse is saying not to leave a corpse hanging overnight.

Yes and why?

Yet, weirdly enough, after the sin of the golden calf, God still considered Israel to be blessed. I have said this several times already.

The cursed one was already removed.

And what does that blessing mean?

It means Abrahams' children will always be Gods' people, so a cursed person isn't a descendant of Abraham, regardless of lineage.

You seem to think that "blessed" that nothing bad can happen, or that the people will be perfect, or in line for some great reward, or go straight to heaven. It means none of those things. It's about being fruitful, inheriting the land of Israel, and becoming a blessing for the rest of the world. That's the plain text of the Abrahamic blessing.

I understand why bad things happen to blessed people, because I understand why bad things happened to Jesus.

The Abrahamic blessing is on people who believe in God and therefore conduct themselves with the grace God shows toward people who do not love them, which Jesus perfectly demonstrated.

[Fenris]

I understand the transgression of the law.

You don't keep the law, though. You don't uphold it.

Crucifying an innocent man is transgressing the law

You mean what the Romans did?

Heb. הוֹקַע. This refers to [death by] hanging, as we find with the sons of Saul [where a similar expression is used,] “and we shall hang them (הוֹקַעֲנוּם) for the Lord” (II Sam. 21:6), and there hanging is specifically mentioned. Idolatry is [punishable] by stoning, and all those stoned are also hanged [as is stated in Sanh. 45b according to Rabbi Eliezer]. (Rashis'commentary)

Again, picking and choosing commentators and translations when you like them, and ignoring them when you don't.

Yes and why?

Because a human being is created in the image of God. The curse is leaving the body hanging, not the already dead person.

The cursed one was already removed.

The cursed "one"? One person worshipped the golden calf?

It means Abrahams' children will always be Gods' people, so a cursed person isn't a descendant of Abraham, regardless of lineage.

You might believe this, but it isn't in my bible and it isn't in Judaism. Abraham specifically wanted physical descendants. Not "spiritual" ones.

I understand why bad things happen to blessed people, because I understand why bad things happened to Jesus.

Has nothing to do with my point.

What do you think "blessed" means, in the context of Abraham?

The Abrahamic blessing is on people who believe in God

That's not what the bible says though.

and therefore conduct themselves with the grace God shows toward people who do not love them, which Jesus perfectly demonstrated.

Which is also not in the bible.

[journeyman]

You don't keep the law, though. You don't uphold it.

I just said I did, as Jesus taught it himself.

You mean what the Romans did?

I mean,

Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and his anointed, saying, "Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us." Psa.2:1-3

for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel Act.4:27

Again, picking and choosing commentators and translations when you like them, and ignoring them when you don't.

They're your commentators, you're Rabbis' and you're ignoring them.

Because a human being is created in the image of God. The curse is leaving the body hanging, not the already dead person.

So,

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is.....made in the image of God?? No.

The cursed "one"? One  person worshipped the golden calf?

I was using "one" in a generic sense. The actual number was about 3000 (Ex.32:28).

The rest of your post is pointless, as I've already shown how a person who is Jewish can be cursed himself by God. You're unwilling to acknowledge it.

[Athanasius]

I haven't been following this discussion. Let me know if I need to step in.

[Fenris]

I just said I did, as Jesus taught it himself.

Jesus didn't teach the law. Moses did.

Why do the nations conspire, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and his anointed, saying, "Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us." Psa.2:1-3

This is talking about king David.

for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel Act.4:27

This is something that you believe. It's not a fact.

They're your commentators, you're Rabbis' and you're ignoring them.

You ignore them, except when it suits you.

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is.....made in the image of God?? No.

Yes. Hanging a human body overnight is sinful. That's what the verse is telling us.

I was using "one" in a generic sense. The actual number was about 3000 (Ex.32:28).

Oh. I thought it was everyone. Isn't that your big selling point?

The rest of your post is pointless, as I've already shown how a person who is Jewish can be cursed himself by God. You're unwilling to acknowledge it.

And I've shown how all of Abraham's physical descendants are blessed. You're unwilling to acknowledge it.

[Fenris]

I haven't been following this discussion. Let me know if I need to step in.

Only if you're going to make interesting observations. Because I like those.