BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: Billy Evmur on August 10, 2024, 07:44:18 AM
-
Oh I thought the Great Tribulation, the Jews are really going to get it, after all isn't it called the time of Jacob's trouble?
But what does the bible say?
Jeremiah 30.4-11
These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah
thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic, of terror and no peace.
Ask now and see, can a man bear a child?
why then do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labour? why is every face turned pale?
Alas for that day is so great, there is no day like it, it is even the day of Jacob's trouble but he shall be saved out of it
And it shall come to pass in that day says the Lord of hosts that I will break the yoke from off their neck and I will burst the bonds and strangers shall no more make servants of them. But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.
Therefore FEAR NOT O JACOB My servant says the Lord
NOR BE DISMAYED O ISRAEL for lo I will save you from afar and your offspring from the land of your captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease and none shall make him afraid. For I am with you to SAVE YOU says the Lord.
I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I have scattered you but of you I will not make a full end. I will chasten you in measure and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
-
It is called the time of Jacob's trouble [the Great Tribulation] because of the trouble that is coming upon the nations because of the way they have treated the Jews, God has got a quarrel with the nations and unfortunately the church is among the nations.
Jeremiah shows exactly who is to go through the tribulation and who is not.
The man [Israel is God's first born son] does NOT travail in childbirth. Jesus and Paul speak about the great tribulation in terms of birth pangs.
The woman [the church, the bride] travails in childbirth.
Matthew 24
They shall deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death ...
-
IMO the Great Tribulation happened in AD70 predicted by Jesus.
-
IMO the Great Tribulation happened in AD70 predicted by Jesus.
Have you done any research of history in "when" Jesus provided The Revelation to the Apostle John, when he was imprisoned at Patmos?
-
Whew. I was worried for a minute there!
-
IMO the Great Tribulation happened in AD70 predicted by Jesus.
awful lot in Matt.24 hasn't happened yet.
-
IMO the Great Tribulation happened in AD70 predicted by Jesus.
Have you done any research of history in "when" Jesus provided The Revelation to the Apostle John, when he was imprisoned at Patmos?
Sure, Revelation is the book I read as a whole the most.
But let's see what Jesus said, note Christ is not speaking to 21 century people but to the Jews of His time and the upcoming destruction of the theocracy Israel.
Matt 16 -
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Do you thinks these people Jesus mentions have seen : the Son of Man coming in his kingdom ?
And / Or
Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matt 26 -
63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Do you think the high priest has seen : you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven ?
Over to you ;)
-
IMO the Great Tribulation happened in AD70 predicted by Jesus.
Have you done any research of history in "when" Jesus provided The Revelation to the Apostle John, when he was imprisoned at Patmos?
Sure, Revelation is the book I read as a whole the most.
But let's see what Jesus said, note Christ is not speaking to 21 century people but to the Jews of His time and the upcoming destruction of the theocracy Israel.
Matt 16 -
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Do you thinks these people Jesus mentions have seen : the Son of Man coming in his kingdom ?
And / Or
Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matt 26 -
63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Do you think the high priest has seen : you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven ?
Over to you ;)
OK, noted.
I will now have to take a step back and ask in a different way. Do the prophetic scriptures of The Revelation deal with and give detail of events that happen during both halves of the entire (7 years of the) Tribulation period?
Once we can agree/establish when The Revelation was given (the year) to John, then we can discuss the verses you posted and discern how they divide into, The Revelation.
-
IMO the Great Tribulation happened in AD70 predicted by Jesus.
Have you done any research of history in "when" Jesus provided The Revelation to the Apostle John, when he was imprisoned at Patmos?
Sure, Revelation is the book I read as a whole the most.
But let's see what Jesus said, note Christ is not speaking to 21 century people but to the Jews of His time and the upcoming destruction of the theocracy Israel.
Matt 16 -
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Do you thinks these people Jesus mentions have seen : the Son of Man coming in his kingdom ?
And / Or
Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matt 26 -
63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Do you think the high priest has seen : you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven ?
Over to you ;)
OK, noted.
I will now have to take a step back and ask in a different way. Do the prophetic scriptures of The Revelation deal with and give detail of events that happen during both halves of the entire (7 years of the) Tribulation period?
Once we can agree/establish when The Revelation was given (the year) to John, then we can discuss the verses you posted and discern how they divide into, The Revelation.
Sure, but before moving to Revelation, some more evidence, the warnings Christ gave.
Matt 24 -
34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
Christ is not warning us people of the 21th century but the Jews during His stay on Earth.
Warning one -
Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.
Matt 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Matt 24:45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?
Matt 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Matt 24:47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Matt 24:48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’
Matt 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards,
Matt 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know
Matt 25 - warning two, The Parable of the Ten Virgins
Regarding Revelation, it truly matters when it was written, before or after AD70, I am inclined to think all of the NT is written before AD70.
Openb 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Openb 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.
Openb 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.
Openb 22:7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Openb 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
Openb 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
Surely soon is not 2000 years, but exactly 40 years after Christ death, resurrection and ascension makes a lot more sense and is in sync with the warnings of Christ in Matt.
-
Sure, but before moving to Revelation, some more evidence, the warnings Christ gave.
Matt 24 -
34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
Christ is not warning us people of the 21th century but the Jews during His stay on Earth.
Warning one -
Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into.
Matt 24:44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Matt 24:45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?
Matt 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Matt 24:47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Matt 24:48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’
Matt 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards,
Matt 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know
Matt 25 - warning two, The Parable of the Ten Virgins
Regarding Revelation, it truly matters when it was written, before or after AD70, I am inclined to think all of the NT is written before AD70.
Openb 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Openb 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.
Openb 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.
Openb 22:7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Openb 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
Openb 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
Surely soon is not 2000 years, but exactly 40 years after Christ death, resurrection and ascension makes a lot more sense and is in sync with the warnings of Christ in Matt.
Hooah, got what you are responding with and we need to place all your verses into the context involving all prophetic related Scriptures dealing with the endtimes. Are you planning on researching "when" John was imprisoned at Patmos and thus during that time (date?), received The Revelation?
-
From Matt we already learn that Christ came back, so it's odd to think Revelation was written after AD70, else it would be no Scripture at all.
-
From Matt we already learn that Christ came back, so it's odd to think Revelation was written after AD70, else it would be no Scripture at all.
I will be patient as I wait for you to confirm the year that John was imprisoned at Patmos and that during his approximate 18 months of confinement, received The Revelation.
-
From Matt we already learn that Christ came back, so it's odd to think Revelation was written after AD70, else it would be no Scripture at all.
I will be patient as I wait for you to confirm the year that John was imprisoned at Patmos and that during his approximate 18 months of confinement, received The Revelation.
As far as I know nobody knows.
-
From Matt we already learn that Christ came back, so it's odd to think Revelation was written after AD70, else it would be no Scripture at all.
I will be patient as I wait for you to confirm the year that John was imprisoned at Patmos and that during his approximate 18 months of confinement, received The Revelation.
As far as I know nobody knows.
Brother, it's historic concerning who the emperor of the Roman Empire was who imprisoned John at Patmos, also who the Roman Emperor was when John was released. Simple research brother.
I can post all the facts but as we all know, unless one learns/discovers facts on their own, it's to easy to deny facts when honestly provided.
-
From Matt we already learn that Christ came back, so it's odd to think Revelation was written after AD70, else it would be no Scripture at all.
I will be patient as I wait for you to confirm the year that John was imprisoned at Patmos and that during his approximate 18 months of confinement, received The Revelation.
As far as I know nobody knows.
Brother, it's historic concerning who the emperor of the Roman Empire was who imprisoned John at Patmos, also who the Roman Emperor was when John was released. Simple research brother.
I can post all the facts but as we all know, unless one learns/discovers facts on their own, it's to easy to deny facts when honestly provided.
Well, I am open to learn so please provide the historic facts.
-
From Matt we already learn that Christ came back, so it's odd to think Revelation was written after AD70, else it would be no Scripture at all.
I will be patient as I wait for you to confirm the year that John was imprisoned at Patmos and that during his approximate 18 months of confinement, received The Revelation.
As far as I know nobody knows.
Brother, it's historic concerning who the emperor of the Roman Empire was who imprisoned John at Patmos, also who the Roman Emperor was when John was released. Simple research brother.
I can post all the facts but as we all know, unless one learns/discovers facts on their own, it's to easy to deny facts when honestly provided.
Well, I am open to learn so please provide the historic facts.
Sure:
During my college days, one of the many books I had to purchase for the many classes was: New Testament Survey (revised version) by Merrill C. Tenney. I'll post a very concise summary specific to what I have been encouraging you to discover on your own. Instead, now you can verify all these facts online with research.
1) The Emperor of Rome when John was exiled (I should have been saying exiled this whole time) was named Domitian. He was the emperor from AD 81 to 96.
2) I, II, and III John were written by the Apostle around AD85.
3) Irenaeus said that John received the vision, "no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." Irenaeus Against Heresies V.xxx.3.
4) The Revelation encouraged Christians (of the time) because the growth of persecution under Domitian's reign as he was an emperor who demanded "worship" as a god. He was increasing the level of persecution against them. First the letters to the seven churches to set them right before Jesus and then a glimpse into the future revealing that the persecution they had endured (20+ years ago at the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple) and are presently enduring (tribulation), is tame compared to what awaits the entire world in the future under the AC. Revelation provided "hope" for Christians that Christ was going to return in power.
I'm gonna quote something from page 384;
"Revelation was written as an encouragement for the churches that were feeling this growing hostility and as a warning to the careless and negligent Christians who were tempted to lapse into an easy conformity to the world. It was the last voice of a closing century."
5) AD95 was the year (as best concluded) John was sent to the isle of Patmos and the reason was due to resisting the ordinance to worship the emperor. We find in Rev 1:9, John admission that he held to his faith in Jesus.
-
I find the evidence for a pre 70 AD date for the writing of Revelatuon for more compelling.
-
I find the evidence for a pre 70 AD date for the writing of Revelatuon for more compelling.
I know there is the belief that Rev 11:1-2 is foretelling of Jerusalem being destroyed by Roman siege. How Nero (Rev 13?) was in charge and he fit the bill for an anti-christ. A factor that has me hesitant to hold to a date earlier than 70AD, is that the "spiritual" condition of the churches prior to 70AD does not fit the descriptive detail of the churches we find being corrected for their errors in chapters 2-3. It does take time for firmly installed churches ( when they are visited by or written to by Apostles) to decline to a point that their errors can cause Jesus to warn of His rejecting them.
Concerning the Church of Smyrna, didn't even exist when Paul traveled Asia but in The Revelation, the details that (2:8-11) indicate they are suffering persecution for a "long" time. And when Paul was traveling Asia (before 70AD), his writings do not describe severely persecuted churches as does The Revelation in chp 2-3. The letters that John wrote to those churches, describe the present condition(s), not a foretelling of "their" future condition(s).
Check out Rev 2:13 - Antipas was martyred. History dates that he was roasted alive in 92AD.
Nero didn't fulfill events that the ac will fulfill. There is nothing to represent a 2nd beast (false prophet of God) with Nero, he didn't enforce a mark for buying and selling, he did not erect an image of himself that "had" life.
I found that there are actually several Church Fathers detailing who the emperor is when John is exiled to Patmos. The first rejection of any of those Church Fathers happened 1650 years later by a Preterist who called Irenaeus' detail, as ambiguous. A question is, why didn't a date of before 70AD concerning The Revelation predominate the Church Father's writings? 95AD predominated as the date the vision was provided to John and held for generations.
Another factor is this, all the writers of Scripture for the NT were very clear in pointing out fulfilled prophecy. However, John didn't do any of this in his writings written after 70AD, that are Canon.
-
5) AD95 was the year (as best concluded) John was sent to the isle of Patmos and the reason was due to resisting the ordinance to worship the emperor. We find in Rev 1:9, John admission that he held to his faith in Jesus.
as best concluded - is already different what you said before namely - a historic fact
What you said is just one of the many opinions, the problem is the year 95, it doesn't match with Matt.
Like I said before, nobody knows for sure.
Like to add something to the discussion -
Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Refers to -
1Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
IMO that happened just before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the Lord saving His elect.
I know, it requires a new understanding of Revelation, quite some puzzle!
-
My two cents: Aside from the quote by Irenaeus that Slug mentioned, both Victorinus and Eusebius also recorded that it was Domitian who exiled John to Patmos. Since the Revelation was written during that exile, the earliest it could have been penned was at the beginning of Domitian's reign in AD 81, which was 11 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. Also consider the following quotes by a number of the early church fathers:
Happy are you who endure the great tribulation that is coming. And happy are they who will not deny their own life. --Hermas (AD 150)
He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the most high, will venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians. --Justin Martyr (AD 160)
Once the Antichrist has devastated everything in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem. And then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds. --Irenaeus (AD 180)
(Note that Irenaeus obviously believed the man of sin would sit in a third temple, since the second temple was already destroyed when he wrote this).
In the crisis of the last moment, and from their instantaneous death while encountering the oppression of the antichrist, these persons will also undergo a change. --Tertullian (AD 207)
After the destruction of the Antichrist there will be speedily transacted the process of the resurrection. --Tertullian (AD 210)
When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring up from the beast in the last days, then the Antichrist will appear among them. When he makes war against the saints and persecutes them, then we can expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven. --Hippolytus (AD 205)
Even the Antichrist, when he comes, will not be allowed to enter into the church just because he threatens. We will not yield to his arms and violence, even though he declares that he will destroy us if we resist... --Cyprian (AD 250)
If the Antichrist's persecution of the church foretold in the Revelation were fulfilled under Nero prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, why were the ECF's still writing about it as a future event so many years later? How could they have been unaware the reign of the Antichrist had occurred? It's clear to me that the beast's rise to power and ultimate destruction by Christ are yet in the future.
-
What you said is just one of the many opinions, the problem is the year 95, it doesn't match with Matt.
Like I said before, nobody knows for sure.
There are facts we do know for sure. In The Revelation, the ACs actions are foretold and an opinion is that Nero was the AC foretold in vision given to John. As I pointed out in a response to Rabbiknife, Nero fails to do what the AC is revealed to do against not only Israel, but to the entire world. We know what Nero does based on historic accounts that are documented and maintained. To say he fit the bill of the AC from Revelation, is to ignore the accounts of his actions against the Jews.
It may be a tiny historic account but what happened to Antipas being martyred, is a large fact to account for. All Preterists who I've spoken with will not, in my opinion, honestly address the account of his death in AD92.
Like to add something to the discussion -
Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Refers to -
1Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
IMO that happened just before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the Lord saving His elect.
Paul's letters to the Thessalonians conquered with Jesus' revealing of what is referred to as The Rapture. 1 Thess speaks of Paul's confirming what will happen in the future in relation to your point from Matthew 24. If you go on to 2 Thess 2, Paul has to readdress the topic because the people in Thessalonica are kinda freaking out because a false letter (2 Thess 2:2) said Christ had returned and the Christians wondered why weren't they taken by Jesus as they are/were taught? Why should they continue their Kingdom work amidst the persecution?
Furthermore, 2 Thess 2 is a powerful part of that letter for refuting the opinion that Nero was the AC. Nero did not have a "religious" leader (the 2nd beast) that did actual supernatural signs and wonders to prove Nero is to be worshiped as God. Paul fully describes elements of the AC and the false prophet in this letter that are later, made more clear with the vision provided to John. Nero fails to check so many boxes about the AC, it is impossible to accept that he was the AC described in The Revelation.
I know, it requires a new understanding of Revelation, quite some puzzle!
This is not about a new understanding of The Revelation, it is about a correct understanding.
Edit - formating
-
Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
Refers to -
1Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
IMO that happened just before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the Lord saving His elect.
I know, it requires a new understanding of Revelation, quite some puzzle!
I wanted to ask earlier but I try to keep responses as short as possible and prefer multiple responses for the purpose of focusing.
Concerning Matthew 24. Prior to your quoted verses in this and the other earlier post, Jesus places context to His lesson as He raises Isaiah 13 concerning the destruction of Babylon. We find this in Matthew 24 v29+ which is about what the OT Scriptures reveal in Isaiah 13. We know this as "apocalyptic language" as judgement will come upon Babylon (at the time of Isaiah prophesying) and judgement upon the world, as Jesus prophesies. Jesus is proclaiming calamity that will happen. He then specifies at Matthew 24 v30, He will come in power upon the entire world (as detailed later, in The Revelation).
He didn't come in "power" upon the entire world (at or prior to AD70) and slay all who have no faith in Him. He hasn't (yet) gathered all who have faith per the Matt 40+ and 1 Thess 4 verses. If He did, then the Thessalonian's truly had a problem being left behind.
Now, judgement/calamity against the Nation of Israel, YES as we see through what the Roman Empire did in Jerusalem and to the Jewish people. But to say Jesus returned... no. That judgement came upon all the earth... no.
We have to remember that most prophecy in the Bible has a short term fulfillment and also, a long term fulfillment. Jesus spoke of BOTH judgement upon Israel and also, judgement upon all the earth. AD70 was the short term fulfillment of prophecy (He didn't return in power at that time) and as time continues toward the future, the long term fulfillment will begin and He will return in power as revealed in Matt 24, The Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.
-
Matt 24 one more time....
Matt 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
To what chapter is Christ referring?, likely chapter 12, it states -
Dan 12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?”
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”
Dan 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”
1290 days is about 3 years and 6½ month. That is very close to the first Jewish revolt started in AD 66 and ended in AD 70 with the well known outcome.
-
Oh I thought the Great Tribulation, the Jews are really going to get it, after all isn't it called the time of Jacob's trouble?
But what does the bible say?
Jeremiah 30.4-11
These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah
thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic, of terror and no peace.
Ask now and see, can a man bear a child?
why then do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labour? why is every face turned pale?
Alas for that day is so great, there is no day like it, it is even the day of Jacob's trouble but he shall be saved out of it
And it shall come to pass in that day says the Lord of hosts that I will break the yoke from off their neck and I will burst the bonds and strangers shall no more make servants of them. But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.
Therefore FEAR NOT O JACOB My servant says the Lord
NOR BE DISMAYED O ISRAEL for lo I will save you from afar and your offspring from the land of your captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease and none shall make him afraid. For I am with you to SAVE YOU says the Lord.
I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I have scattered you but of you I will not make a full end. I will chasten you in measure and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
It is not only Jeremiah who teaches that the Jews are to be kept safe in the Great Tribulation, in fact ALL the prophets say it.
Just to give one example for now.
Daniel 12.
At that time shall arise Michael the great prince who has the charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble such as never has been since there was a nation till that time ....
... BUT AT THAT TIME YOUR PEOPLE WILL BE DELIVERED.
-
Matt 24 one more time....
Matt 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
To what chapter is Christ referring?, likely chapter 12, it states -
Dan 12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?”
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”
Dan 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”
1290 days is about 3 years and 6½ month. That is very close to the first Jewish revolt started in AD 66 and ended in AD 70 with the well known outcome.
I addressed some of Matthew 24 in the previous post (#21). The only response I will make for now in relation to your posting of a few more Mt 24 verses and key verses from Daniel is this:
This abomination takes place at the start of the 2nd half of the Tribulation as described in greater detail when we add the context of OT prophets, Matthew 24 and The Revelation. Here is another reason why I cannot hold to the Tribulation happening years ago. If the destruction of the temple is a culmination of the 2nd approximate 3.5 year period of Israel being tormented by the ac, what was the ac doing to Israel prior to the 2nd half of the Tribulation period? What about the approx 3.5 years prior to the abomination happening? Meaning, 7 years prior to the destruction of the temple/Jerusalem, the ac "began" his influence upon the Jews and the entire world and persisted for an entire 7 year period.
Nero, the "ac" of Preterism failed in another prophetic verification for him being the ac, Nero was not alive in AD70. He did not last through the entire period of time Preterism claims is the "Great Tribulation," which culminated with the destruction of Jerusalem/the Temple. He didn't torment Israel for 7 years, as the ac must do based on prophecy.
-
Have we spent as much time telling others about Jesus today as we have pissing on the fence about nothing of any significance.
If partial preterists or amillenials are correct then all the pretrib folks are going to have a real problem if they don’t get the revelatory to escape the tribulation
If the pretrib folks are right then none of this matters in the slightest as no cxhristians are on earth at that time
So why fight over it?
So tell a Muslim about Jesus instead…
-
I am not fighting, just wanna know what happened in the AD 70 period. There is certainly room for unfulfilled prophecy such as Zachariah 14 -
Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
-
Have we spent as much time telling others about Jesus today as we have pissing on the fence about nothing of any significance.
If partial preterists or amillenials are correct then all the pretrib folks are going to have a real problem if they don’t get the revelatory to escape the tribulation
If the pretrib folks are right then none of this matters in the slightest as no cxhristians are on earth at that time
So why fight over it?
So tell a Muslim about Jesus instead…
There is absolutely zero fighting going on, only discussion brother. I hope discussion is allowed to continue.
-
I am not fighting, just wanna know what happened in the AD 70 period. There is certainly room for unfulfilled prophecy such as Zachariah 14 -
Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
Hooah. V2 is a key in illuminating this prophecy as yet unfulfilled till now and clearly will be at a future time. Reason, v2 details that half the Jews of the city will be exiled and other half of the Jews will remain (not cut off/exiled), in the city. Historically AD70, The Romans (under Titus' military command) destroyed the city and any who remained and didn't escape, were killed or enslaved.
-
I am not fighting, just wanna know what happened in the AD 70 period. There is certainly room for unfulfilled prophecy such as Zachariah 14 -
Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.
Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.
Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
Hooah. V2 is a key in illuminating this prophecy as yet unfulfilled till now and clearly will be at a future time. Reason, v2 details that half the Jews of the city will be exiled and other half of the Jews will remain (not cut off/exiled), in the city. Historically AD70, The Romans (under Titus' military command) destroyed the city and any who remained and didn't escape, were killed or enslaved.
So in your opinion how should we interpret -
Matt 16 -
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Do you thinks these people Jesus mentions have seen : the Son of Man coming in his kingdom ?
And / Or
Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matt 26 -
63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Do you think the high priest has seen : you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven ?
-
I am not fighting, just wanna know what happened in the AD 70 period. There is certainly room for unfulfilled prophecy such as Zachariah 14 -
Or Zachariah 12!
A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.
The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’
“On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.
“The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
This one seems strangely pertinent today.
-
So in your opinion how should we interpret -
Matt 16 -
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Let root through my studies :-)
V28 - We have to begin with the Greek concerning the English term, "some." In English we understand this to be plural in nature, meaning more than one. But, in the Greek, the meaning is not as it is in English.
Strong's Concordance
tis: a certain one, someone, anyone
Original Word: τις, τι
Part of Speech: Indefinite Pronoun
Transliteration: tis
Phonetic Spelling: (tis)
Definition: a certain one, someone, anyone
Usage: any one, some one, a certain one or thing.
Meaning, Jesus is informing a "single" person that "they" will be alive and see Jesus coming in His Kingdom.
I'll leave it here for your thoughts because when this got pointed out to me, it was as if the light bulb I thought burned bright in my head, went POP!
-
Thanks for the discussion.
--ProDeo-out ;)
-
Thanks for the discussion.
--ProDeo-out ;)
Just so I'm sure you understood my discussion point. Jesus is speaking to a group but by studying the original language, the meaning and intent of this specific verse you have raised, means Jesus is referring to one specific person in the group He's speaking to, "will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"
All these years on both boards, I try to only "view" doctrinal positions while attempting to discuss what the Scriptures are actually and truly, saying.
-
I interpret Christ's Olivet discourse as covering only a 'dual prophetic' fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. The rest of Christ's Olivet discourse covers Signs specifically for the end of this world, leading up to Christ's future return.
I was raised in a Preterist mainstream Protestant Church, but I didn't know then what man's doctrine of Preterism was. They believed most of Revelation was fulfilled, and only Christ's future return was still lacking. That's called Partial-Preterism. Full-Preterism is the belief that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in the days of His Apostles, and that it was meant in the spiritual sense only, and not as a literal bodily return. Both in my opinion are failed doctrines of men, disproven by historical fact, and by overwhelming Scripture evidences that point directly to the latter days of this world, long after 70 A.D.
In the Matt.24:32-35 Scripture about the "generation" Jesus mentioned, He is pointing to the final generation that will 'see' all those Signs of the end that He gave.
Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
KJV
The condition Jesus set in the above is that "generation" will "see all these things", meaning those Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. The very last Sign Jesus gave in the Matt.24:29-31 verses is about the day of His future coming to gather His saints, and He showed that will happen AFTER... that tribulation, meaning the "great tribulation" of verse 21. So there is yet another Biblical proof that His Olivet discourse Signs are for the very end of this world, in the final generation on earth, simply because His coming to gather His saints has not happened yet today.
Some will say, but that not one stone atop another Sign Jesus gave happened already, in 70 A.D., when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple!
I see that as a 'dual prophecy' only partially fulfilled in 70 A.D. Just as Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 B.C. took Jerusalem and sacrificed swine inside the 2nd temple at Jerusalem, and then setup an IDOL abomination in Zeus worship 'partially' fulfilled the Daniel 11:31 prophecy about the coming Antichrist, likewise the not one stone atop another prophecy for 70 A.D. served as a 'partial' fulfillment.
Per the great earthquake of Rev.11 on the 7th Trumpet, and per the Zechariah 14 Scripture about the day of Christ's future return to the Mount of Olives, with a great valley being formed, that in my opinion will complete that 'not one stone atop another' Matt.24:2 prophecy.
The only further historical events aligned with Christ's Olivet discourse other than the 70 A.D. fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple, are the "many" that come claiming to be Christ. There were false Christs going back in history even in that time, just as there are still many today in my era that have claimed to be Jesus Christ. So really that idea is on-going fulfillment that will culminate in the coming of the actual Antichrist at the very end of this world.
-
This is pretty much how I see it:
(no offense to Fenris)
1)Israel will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith in the Messiah to the elect jews(remnant) .(Joel 2:32)
2)Two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8 )
3)Half of Jerusalem will be destroyed.(Zech 14:2)
4)The remaining one third elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and repent to have faith in Jesus Christ(Matt 23:39)
5)And so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)
6) Jew and Gentile will be united into an everlasting Messianic Kingdom(Eph 2:15-22)
The remnant will be kept safe(preserved) but Israel will go through her last time of judgement just as wrath is poured on the gentile nations
-
This is pretty much how I see it:
(no offense to Fenris)
None taken. All will be revealed in time.
-
This is pretty much how I see it:
(no offense to Fenris)
1)Israel will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith in the Messiah to the elect jews(remnant) .(Joel 2:32)
2)Two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8 )
3)Half of Jerusalem will be destroyed.(Zech 14:2)
4)The remaining one third elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and repent to have faith in Jesus Christ(Matt 23:39)
5)And so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)
6) Jew and Gentile will be united into an everlasting Messianic Kingdom(Eph 2:15-22)
The remnant will be kept safe(preserved) but Israel will go through her last time of judgement just as wrath is poured on the gentile nations
Hello Shepherd's sword. I believe we have just made friends on Mastedon social.
Folks read Old Testament prophets as though all the prophecies relate to the end-times. Joel 2. does indeed speak of God's judgement upon the nations and Israel will not go unpunished. Then verse 28 says "and it shall come to pass afterwards" that is to say after the judgements God had ben speaking about.
Joel 28-29
And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour My Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters shall prophesy and your old men shall dream dreams and your young men shall see visions.
Even upon your menservants and maidservants in those days will I pour out My Spirit.
But Peter tells us that this prophecy came to pass when the day of Pentecost had fully come, "this ... he says ... is that which Joel the prophet prophesied.
From what I saw of your web page I think you will understand that only part of Joel's prophecy came to pass on the day of pentecost, the pillars of smoke and portents belong to another event, the famous "Day of the Lord"
But you see from then on nothing but good and blessing is prophesied for Israel. God will restore the fortunes of Judah and bring the nations down to the valley of Jehoshaphat for judgement.
God cannot be gathering Israel and scattering them at the same time can He? He can't be fighting for them and fighting against them at the same time. He is blessing or cursing but not at the same time.
Zechariah 13 7-8
Awake o sword against My Shepherd, against the Man who stands next to Me saith the Lord of hosts. Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered ..."
But Jesus said this prophecy was fulfilled when they came to arrest Him, it refers to His crucifixion.
Zechariah 14 speaks specifically about a day of the Lord when He will bring the nations up against Israel and to be sure there is much trouble in Jerusalem. But then in verse 4 "Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when He fights in the day of battle."
God bless you.
Sorry I mixed you up with someone else who friended me on Mastedon ... we can still be friends :)
-
This is pretty much how I see it:
(no offense to Fenris)
1)Israel will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith in the Messiah to the elect jews(remnant) .(Joel 2:32)
2)Two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8 )
3)Half of Jerusalem will be destroyed.(Zech 14:2)
4)The remaining one third elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and repent to have faith in Jesus Christ(Matt 23:39)
5)And so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)
6) Jew and Gentile will be united into an everlasting Messianic Kingdom(Eph 2:15-22)
The remnant will be kept safe(preserved) but Israel will go through her last time of judgement just as wrath is poured on the gentile nations
Hello Shepherd's sword. I believe we have just made friends on Mastedon social.
Folks read Old Testament prophets as though all the prophecies relate to the end-times. Joel 2. does indeed speak of God's judgement upon the nations and Israel will not go unpunished. Then verse 28 says "and it shall come to pass afterwards" that is to say after the judgements God had ben speaking about.
Joel 28-29
And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour My Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters shall prophesy and your old men shall dream dreams and your young men shall see visions.
Even upon your menservants and maidservants in those days will I pour out My Spirit.
But Peter tells us that this prophecy came to pass when the day of Pentecost had fully come, "this ... he says ... is that which Joel the prophet prophesied.
From what I saw of your web page I think you will understand that only part of Joel's prophecy came to pass on the day of pentecost, the pillars of smoke and portents belong to another event, the famous "Day of the Lord"
But you see from then on nothing but good and blessing is prophesied for Israel. God will restore the fortunes of Judah and bring the nations down to the valley of Jehoshaphat for judgement.
God cannot be gathering Israel and scattering them at the same time can He? He can't be fighting for them and fighting against them at the same time. He is blessing or cursing but not at the same time.
Zechariah 13 7-8
Awake o sword against My Shepherd, against the Man who stands next to Me saith the Lord of hosts. Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered ..."
But Jesus said this prophecy was fulfilled when they came to arrest Him, it refers to His crucifixion.
Zechariah 14 speaks specifically about a day of the Lord when He will bring the nations up against Israel and to be sure there is much trouble in Jerusalem. But then in verse 4 "Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when He fights in the day of battle."
God bless you.
Sorry I mixed you up with someone else who friended me on Mastedon ... we can still be friends :)
Hi Billy!
I think all of the scriptures I posted have an endtime fulfillment. Well, perhaps Eph 2:15-22 does have a past and present application I think it is a good verse that also speaks to a future complete unity between the church and Israel, but don't get me wrong. I have learned it better to be friends than right so if I am wrong we can be friends anyway :)
-
This is pretty much how I see it:
(no offense to Fenris)
1)Israel will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith in the Messiah to the elect jews(remnant) .(Joel 2:32)
2)Two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8 )
3)Half of Jerusalem will be destroyed.(Zech 14:2)
4)The remaining one third elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and repent to have faith in Jesus Christ(Matt 23:39)
5)And so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)
6) Jew and Gentile will be united into an everlasting Messianic Kingdom(Eph 2:15-22)
The remnant will be kept safe(preserved) but Israel will go through her last time of judgement just as wrath is poured on the gentile nations
Hello Shepherd's sword. I believe we have just made friends on Mastedon social.
Folks read Old Testament prophets as though all the prophecies relate to the end-times. Joel 2. does indeed speak of God's judgement upon the nations and Israel will not go unpunished. Then verse 28 says "and it shall come to pass afterwards" that is to say after the judgements God had ben speaking about.
Joel 28-29
And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour My Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters shall prophesy and your old men shall dream dreams and your young men shall see visions.
Even upon your menservants and maidservants in those days will I pour out My Spirit.
But Peter tells us that this prophecy came to pass when the day of Pentecost had fully come, "this ... he says ... is that which Joel the prophet prophesied.
From what I saw of your web page I think you will understand that only part of Joel's prophecy came to pass on the day of pentecost, the pillars of smoke and portents belong to another event, the famous "Day of the Lord"
But you see from then on nothing but good and blessing is prophesied for Israel. God will restore the fortunes of Judah and bring the nations down to the valley of Jehoshaphat for judgement.
God cannot be gathering Israel and scattering them at the same time can He? He can't be fighting for them and fighting against them at the same time. He is blessing or cursing but not at the same time.
Zechariah 13 7-8
Awake o sword against My Shepherd, against the Man who stands next to Me saith the Lord of hosts. Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered ..."
But Jesus said this prophecy was fulfilled when they came to arrest Him, it refers to His crucifixion.
Zechariah 14 speaks specifically about a day of the Lord when He will bring the nations up against Israel and to be sure there is much trouble in Jerusalem. But then in verse 4 "Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when He fights in the day of battle."
God bless you.
Sorry I mixed you up with someone else who friended me on Mastedon ... we can still be friends :)
Hi Billy!
I think all of the scriptures I posted have an endtime fulfillment. Well, perhaps Eph 2:15-22 does have a past and present application I think it is a good verse that also speaks to a future complete unity between the church and Israel, but don't get me wrong. I have learned it better to be friends than right so if I am wrong we can be friends anyway :)
I'm so glad you believe in the Mill another great scripture from Ephesians is 1 vs 7-10
in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of His grace which He has lavished upon us. For He has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of His will which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time [a synonym for the Millennium] to unite in Him all things, things in Heaven and things on Earth.
Although I believe we are Heaven bound whereas the Jews are promised the earth yet we see from this that Heaven and earth are to be united.
Because folks leave out the 1, 000 years they compound our Lords return to collect the church with His coming to Judge.
The other apostles speak of loud bangs and fervent heat but Paul speaks of rapture. The rapture is the last day for the church on earth but for the Jews the last day indeed comes with the end of the world.
-
God cannot be gathering Israel and scattering them at the same time can He? He can't be fighting for them and fighting against them at the same time. He is blessing or cursing but not at the same time
The judgement process is a blessing for some and a curse for others. It blesses those that turn and have faith in Jesus but cuts off and destroys those who refuse to repent. It's like the ball of wax and the ball of clay in the sun. It melts one and hardens the other.
-
The judgement process is a blessing for some and a curse for others. It blesses those that turn and have faith in Jesus but cuts off and destroys those who refuse to repent. It's like the ball of wax and the ball of clay in the sun. It melts one and hardens the other.
I mean that sounds good, but it isn't what God promises.
For example, look at Isaiah 60. It's talking about the world in the post-messianic era, and it's speaking to the Jewish people. In verse 10, God says "And foreigners shall build your walls, and their kings shall serve you, for in My wrath I struck you, and in My grace have I had mercy on you." God struck the Jewish people "in wrath" because we deserved it, but he will have mercy on the very same people, not because we deserve it, but because He has mercy and grace. And the chapter ends with "And your people, all of them righteous, shall inherit the land forever, a scion of My planting, the work of My hands in which I will glory..." All of them righteous. It doesn't say anything about punishing the unworthy, simply stating a fact, that all will be worthy.
-
God cannot be gathering Israel and scattering them at the same time can He? He can't be fighting for them and fighting against them at the same time. He is blessing or cursing but not at the same time
The judgement process is a blessing for some and a curse for others. It blesses those that turn and have faith in Jesus but cuts off and destroys those who refuse to repent. It's like the ball of wax and the ball of clay in the sun. It melts one and hardens the other.
We Gentiles are chosen one by one, 9individually we make up an elect body, the church.
But God does not deal so with the Jews. They are chosen as a nation. They fell together as a nation [apart from the remnant, the early church] and when the time comes they will be restored as a nation.
-
They are chosen as a nation. They fell together as a nation [apart from the remnant, the early church] and when the time comes they will be restored as a nation.
You are preaching to the choir. They will be restored. After they go through a period of judgements and cleansing.
I will post this again.
1)Israel will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith in the Messiah to the elect jews.( Joel 2:32)
2)Two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8)
3)Half of Jerusalem will be destroyed.(Zech 14:2)
4)The remaining one third elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and repent to have faith in Jesus Christ(Matt 23:39)
5)And so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)
6) Jew and Gentile will be united into an everlasting Messianic Kingdom(Eph 2:15-22)
-
They are chosen as a nation. They fell together as a nation [apart from the remnant, the early church] and when the time comes they will be restored as a nation.
You are preaching to the choir. They will be restored. After they go through a period of judgements and cleansing.
I will post this again.
1)Israel will go through a series of successful judgements that will eradicate all non believing jews and restore faith in the Messiah to the elect jews.( Joel 2:32)
2)Two thirds of Israel will be destroyed by judgement.(Zech 13:8)
3)Half of Jerusalem will be destroyed.(Zech 14:2)
4)The remaining one third elect will cry "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" and repent to have faith in Jesus Christ(Matt 23:39)
5)And so all Israel shall be saved (Rom11:26)
6) Jew and Gentile will be united into an everlasting Messianic Kingdom(Eph 2:15-22)
And I will again say to you lovingly brother that 1/2 of Jerusalem is not all Israel and in the very passage you are quoting you will see "then the Lord Himself will go out and fight against those nations as He fights on the day of battle"
The nation of Israel will turn to the Lord when they SEE Him coming "they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him"
The punishment, the judgement, upon the Jews was told long centuries before it came to pass, they were scattered, chucked out of the promised land. THAT was the judgement, that was their punishment .... not to be shoved into cattle trucks to be hideously murdered, men, women and children. God said nothing about that.
That is over for the Jews ... people cannot now persecute them without paying a 10 fold price. God has gathered them and will continue to gather them.
They are being gathered for the exact same reason that the church will be gathered in the Rapture, to PROTECT them from the wrath of God which is coming.
-
Did someone miss all of chapter 9-11 when Paul clearly says that Israel is not physical but spiritual?
-
Did someone miss all of chapter 9-11 when Paul clearly says that Israel is not physical but spiritual?
Did someone miss Paul when he said as concerning election God's gifts and calling are without repentance so all Israel will be saved.?
Tell me, when a church goes wrong and stray into false doctrine and even immorality, a thing not unknown in these days, are they still the church? Those Galatians who foolishly turned away from Paul's simple gospel, did they lose their salvation? Didn't Paul still address them as brethren?
-
Did someone miss all of chapter 9-11 when Paul clearly says that Israel is not physical but spiritual?
Did someone miss Paul when he said as concerning election God's gifts and calling are without repentance so all Israel will be saved.?
Tell me, when a church goes wrong and stray into false doctrine and even immorality, a thing not unknown in these days, are they still the church? Those Galatians who foolishly turned away from Paul's simple gospel, did they lose their salvation? Didn't Paul still address them as brethren?
Is your position that the members of the Sanhedrin who had Jesus put to death will be resurrected at the end and given one more chance and then they too will accept Jesus as messiah and be saved?
Yes, or no
Oui, ou non
Ja. nein
Da. Nyet.
-
Did someone miss all of chapter 9-11 when Paul clearly says that Israel is not physical but spiritual?
Did someone miss Paul when he said as concerning election God's gifts and calling are without repentance so all Israel will be saved.?
Tell me, when a church goes wrong and stray into false doctrine and even immorality, a thing not unknown in these days, are they still the church? Those Galatians who foolishly turned away from Paul's simple gospel, did they lose their salvation? Didn't Paul still address them as brethren?
Is your position that the members of the Sanhedrin who had Jesus put to death will be resurrected at the end and given one more chance and then they too will accept Jesus as messiah and be saved?
Yes, or no
Oui, ou non
Ja. nein
Da. Nyet.
We have to consider what Paul meant when he said "and so all Israel will be said" I do not believe he means every single Jew who ever lived for Jesus said to Judas "it were better for you if you had never been born"
But did you read when Jesus wept over Jerusalem when they rejected Him? "you will not see Me hence until ye say blessed is He who cometh in the name of the Lord"
Remember too what Peter said that they delivered up our Lord to be crucified by the predeterminate will of God ... YOU could not have been saved if the Jews had not rebelled.
Speaking about the Sanhedrin they were the elite of Jewish society, the lickspittles utterly corrupt but the common people loved Him.
I certainly don't believe all Israel means that 2/3rd of the Jews will be slaughtered as some suppose.
-
So “all” doesn’t mean “all”?
What other words in the Bible do you decide do t mean what the plain literal meaning is?
By what criteria do you make the determination that the words mean what you want them to mean?
-
So “all” doesn’t mean “all”?
What other words in the Bible do you decide do t mean what the plain literal meaning is?
By what criteria do you make the determination that the words mean what you want them to mean?
Romans 11 vs 25-27
Lest you become wise in your own conceits I want you to know this mystery brethren, a hardening has come upon part of Israel until the full number of the Gentiles come in and so all Israel will be saved as it is written
"The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will banish ungodliness from Jacob and this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins."
I do not believe "all Israel" means every single Jew. As with all scripture you have to weigh it with other scripture to get the meaning.
-
So then, it all depends on what you want it to say.
Check.
So when you insist on your particular eschatological interpretation, you mean that only the Jews alive at a given point in time will ALL come to accept Jesus, and to hell with the one's that weren't lucky enough to have been born and alive at that time.
Got it.
So THOSE Jews get a bonus.
-
So then, it all depends on what you want it to say.
Check.
So when you insist on your particular eschatological interpretation, you mean that only the Jews alive at a given point in time will ALL come to accept Jesus, and to hell with the one's that weren't lucky enough to have been born and alive at that time.
Got it.
So THOSE Jews get a bonus.
You can play around as much as you like. The scripture says also that "though Israel were as many as the sand of the seashore yet only a remnant will be saved."
I do not believe only a few, a remnant will be saved. You have to weigh scripture against scripture to get the true meaning of scripture.
-
So then, it all depends on what you want it to say.
Check.
So when you insist on your particular eschatological interpretation, you mean that only the Jews alive at a given point in time will ALL come to accept Jesus, and to hell with the one's that weren't lucky enough to have been born and alive at that time.
Got it.
So THOSE Jews get a bonus.
You can play around as much as you like. The scripture says also that "though Israel were as many as the sand of the seashore yet only a remnant will be saved."
I do not believe only a few, a remnant will be saved. You have to weigh scripture against scripture to get the true meaning of scripture.
So which is it?
All?
Or a remnant?
I thought earlier you said "ALL." Now you say something else? And you disagree with the Word when it says "remnant."
How do you decide?
-
So then, it all depends on what you want it to say.
Check.
So when you insist on your particular eschatological interpretation, you mean that only the Jews alive at a given point in time will ALL come to accept Jesus, and to hell with the one's that weren't lucky enough to have been born and alive at that time.
Got it.
So THOSE Jews get a bonus.
You can play around as much as you like. The scripture says also that "though Israel were as many as the sand of the seashore yet only a remnant will be saved."
I do not believe only a few, a remnant will be saved. You have to weigh scripture against scripture to get the true meaning of scripture.
So which is it?
All?
Or a remnant?
I thought earlier you said "ALL." Now you say something else? And you disagree with the Word when it says "remnant."
How do you decide?
You have to read both scriptures in the context of which they were given.
I would love to believe that every single Jew will be saved but it cannot be so for Jesus said to Judas "it were better for you if you had never been born"
You have to consider the purpose of "remnant" they were those who clung to the Lord during a time of great apostacy. Their job was to keep the faith of Jehovah God alive. In God's time they were instrumental in the reign of Jehu in turning the hearts and minds of Israel
back to God.
-
So you either don’t know or won’t say…
How does this lack of certainty play in your rigid eschatology?
-
So you either don’t know or won’t say…
How does this lack of certainty play in your rigid eschatology?
Hey, I bin saved 48 years, I've scarcely heard 2 Christians who have the same beliefs regarding eschatology.
One thing they all seem to agree upon is that them Jews are sure gunna cop it again once things get started.
I never heard anybody who believes what I believe, that it is the church who must go through the Great Tribulation while the Jews for the most part will be kept safe ... more I believe Israel must expand, must become a super power. How else can they stay safe while Antichrist is doing his darnedest to stamp out all religion?
At sometime Ac will renege on the the pact he has with Israel and he will invade and storm Jerusalem, there will be a little skirmish there. But then the Lord will return and He will destroy Ac and all the armies of the nations who came with him.
THAT is when Israel will be converted, when they look upon Him whom they have pierced and Zech says God will pour upon the WHOLE nation a spirit of compassion and supplication and as a whole nation the men separated from the women will pray.
That is how I understand Paul's statement "so all Israel will be saved"
-
Oh I thought the Great Tribulation, the Jews are really going to get it, after all isn't it called the time of Jacob's trouble?
But what does the bible say?
Jeremiah 30.4-11
These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah
thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic, of terror and no peace.
Ask now and see, can a man bear a child?
why then do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labour? why is every face turned pale?
Alas for that day is so great, there is no day like it, it is even the day of Jacob's trouble but he shall be saved out of it
And it shall come to pass in that day says the Lord of hosts that I will break the yoke from off their neck and I will burst the bonds and strangers shall no more make servants of them. But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.
Therefore FEAR NOT O JACOB My servant says the Lord
NOR BE DISMAYED O ISRAEL for lo I will save you from afar and your offspring from the land of your captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease and none shall make him afraid. For I am with you to SAVE YOU says the Lord.
I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I have scattered you but of you I will not make a full end. I will chasten you in measure and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
You see it is the woman who travails, the spouse, the church ... the man, Israel is God's firstborn son, does not travail.
-
Oh I thought the Great Tribulation, the Jews are really going to get it, after all isn't it called the time of Jacob's trouble?
But what does the bible say?
Jeremiah 30.4-11
These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah
thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic, of terror and no peace.
Ask now and see, can a man bear a child?
why then do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labour? why is every face turned pale?
Alas for that day is so great, there is no day like it, it is even the day of Jacob's trouble but he shall be saved out of it
And it shall come to pass in that day says the Lord of hosts that I will break the yoke from off their neck and I will burst the bonds and strangers shall no more make servants of them. But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.
Therefore FEAR NOT O JACOB My servant says the Lord
NOR BE DISMAYED O ISRAEL for lo I will save you from afar and your offspring from the land of your captivity.
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease and none shall make him afraid. For I am with you to SAVE YOU says the Lord.
I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I have scattered you but of you I will not make a full end. I will chasten you in measure and I will by no means leave you unpunished.
Well, if one looks the time is about on us and if it is not shortened it will be catastrophic even for the Jews. We see when it will happen..
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
-
He's having a really hard time answering your question, given all that writing.
-
Well, if one looks the time is about on us and if it is not shortened
How is it "shortened"?
-
See, in Judaism the messiah comes in one of two ways:
According to Ezekiel, it's when God decides that His Name has been profaned enough (chapter 36 and elsewhere).
According to all the other prophets, it will happen when the Jews repent.
There is no tension between the two sets of prophecies. If we repent, it will happen immediately, with all the miracles and other nice stuff. If we don't, it will begin as a more natural process (which it seems to me is obviously happening), and the miracles follow.
In either case, it's nothing to worry about.
-
Well, if one looks the time is about on us and if it is not shortened
How is it "shortened"?
If you see a war that has the potential to destroy a nation, country or people, would not shortening it be better. We can see how it will be in Revelation 16:16-21
-
If you see a war that has the potential to destroy a nation, country or people, would not shortening it be better. We can see how it will be in Revelation 16:16-21
I don't understand what you're saying.
-
If you see a war that has the potential to destroy a nation, country or people, would not shortening it be better. We can see how it will be in Revelation 16:16-21
I don't understand what you're saying.
If you were able to shutoff the carnage of a WWIII or get the antagonists to stop, would you do it to make it better, or just let it wipe out even the believers.
-
We could ask the Dol'drm?
-
If you were able to shutoff the carnage of a WWIII or get the antagonists to stop, would you do it to make it better, or just let it wipe out even the believers.
I mean this looks like English, it really does. Each word is comprehensible. But the sentence is not.
-
Whew. I was worried for a minute there!
Hi Fenris. Been a while since I have been here. Don’t know if you remember me.
-
IMO the Great Tribulation happened in AD70 predicted by Jesus.
Have you done any research of history in "when" Jesus provided The Revelation to the Apostle John, when he was imprisoned at Patmos?
Sure, Revelation is the book I read as a whole the most.
But let's see what Jesus said, note Christ is not speaking to 21 century people but to the Jews of His time and the upcoming destruction of the theocracy Israel.
Matt 16 -
27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Do you thinks these people Jesus mentions have seen : the Son of Man coming in his kingdom ?
And / Or
Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matt 26 -
63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Do you think the high priest has seen : you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven ?
Over to you ;)
First, this was not Jesus Christ coming in His Kingdom. Let’s read on a little…
Mat 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”
It was a vision.
Second, the book of Hebrews was written well after the events of Mat 17. Let’s read Hebrews 11:39-40.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
Now, Moses and Elijah had not received the promise yet as of the writing of the book of Hebrews. Actually, they had not received the promise yet and would not without those also in the 1st resurrection at the return of Christ.
-
Hi Fenris. Been a while since I have been here. Don’t know if you remember me.
Hi! I don't remember you. Keep chatting and maybe it will come to me.
-
Possibly a long time ago reference to the .org site
-
Is he going to clue me in as to whether I'll be safe during the Great Tribulation?
-
Is he going to clue me in as to whether I'll be safe during the Great Tribulation?
We can be unsafe during the Great Tribulation together :)
-
Is he going to clue me in as to whether I'll be safe during the Great Tribulation?
We can be unsafe during the Great Tribulation together :)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~~Some Ben Franklin Guy, Prophet Emeritus and Good Ol' Boy
-
Is he going to clue me in as to whether I'll be safe during the Great Tribulation?
We can be unsafe during the Great Tribulation together :)
Yay! Besties!!