The Jews will be kept safe in the Great Tribulation

[Slug1]

From Matt we already learn that Christ came back, so it's odd to think Revelation was written after AD70, else it would be no Scripture at all.

I will be patient as I wait for you to confirm the year that John was imprisoned at Patmos and that during his approximate 18 months of confinement, received The Revelation.

As far as I know nobody knows.

Brother, it's historic concerning who the emperor of the Roman Empire was who imprisoned John at Patmos, also who the Roman Emperor was when John was released. Simple research brother.

I can post all the facts but as we all know, unless one learns/discovers facts on their own, it's to easy to deny facts when honestly provided.

Well, I am open to learn so please provide the historic facts.

Sure:

During my college days, one of the many books I had to purchase for the many classes was: New Testament Survey (revised version) by Merrill C. Tenney. I'll post a very concise summary specific to what I have been encouraging you to discover on your own. Instead, now you can verify all these facts online with research.

1) The Emperor of Rome when John was exiled (I should have been saying exiled this whole time) was named Domitian. He was the emperor from AD 81 to 96.
2) I, II, and III John were written by the Apostle around AD85.
3) Irenaeus said that John received the vision, "no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." Irenaeus Against Heresies V.xxx.3.
4) The Revelation encouraged Christians (of the time) because the growth of persecution under Domitian's reign as he was an emperor who demanded "worship" as a god. He was increasing the level of persecution against them. First the letters to the seven churches to set them right before Jesus and then a glimpse into the future revealing that the persecution they had endured (20+ years ago at the destruction of Jerusalem/Temple) and are presently enduring (tribulation), is tame compared to what awaits the entire world in the future under the AC. Revelation provided "hope" for Christians that Christ was going to return in power.

I'm gonna quote something from page 384;

"Revelation was written as an encouragement for the churches that were feeling this growing hostility and as a warning to the careless and negligent Christians who were tempted to lapse into an easy conformity to the world. It was the last voice of a closing century."

5) AD95 was the year (as best concluded) John was sent to the isle of Patmos and the reason was due to resisting the ordinance to worship the emperor. We find in Rev 1:9, John admission that he held to his faith in Jesus.

[RabbiKnife]

I find the evidence for a pre 70 AD date for the writing of Revelatuon for more compelling.

[Slug1]

I find the evidence for a pre 70 AD date for the writing of Revelatuon for more compelling.

I know there is the belief that Rev 11:1-2 is foretelling of Jerusalem being destroyed by Roman siege. How Nero (Rev 13?) was in charge and he fit the bill for an anti-christ. A factor that has me hesitant to hold to a date earlier than 70AD, is that the "spiritual" condition of the churches prior to 70AD does not fit the descriptive detail of the churches we find being corrected for their errors in chapters 2-3. It does take time for firmly installed churches ( when they are visited by or written to by Apostles) to decline to a point that their errors can cause Jesus to warn of His rejecting them.

Concerning the Church of Smyrna, didn't even exist when Paul traveled Asia but in The Revelation, the details that (2:8-11) indicate they are suffering persecution for a "long" time. And when Paul was traveling Asia (before 70AD), his writings do not describe severely persecuted churches as does The Revelation in chp 2-3. The letters that John wrote to those churches, describe the present condition(s), not a foretelling of "their" future condition(s). 

Check out Rev 2:13 - Antipas was martyred. History dates that he was roasted alive in 92AD.

Nero didn't fulfill events that the ac will fulfill. There is nothing to represent a 2nd beast (false prophet of God) with Nero, he didn't enforce a mark for buying and selling, he did not erect an image of himself that "had" life.

I found that there are actually several Church Fathers detailing who the emperor is when John is exiled to Patmos. The first rejection of any of those Church Fathers happened 1650 years later by a Preterist who called Irenaeus' detail, as ambiguous. A question is, why didn't a date of before 70AD concerning The Revelation predominate the Church Father's writings? 95AD predominated as the date the vision was provided to John and held for generations.

Another factor is this, all the writers of Scripture for the NT were very clear in pointing out fulfilled prophecy. However, John didn't do any of this in his writings written after 70AD, that are Canon.

[ProDeo]

5) AD95 was the year (as best concluded) John was sent to the isle of Patmos and the reason was due to resisting the ordinance to worship the emperor. We find in Rev 1:9, John admission that he held to his faith in Jesus.

as best concluded - is already different what you said before namely - a historic fact

What you said is just one of the many opinions, the problem is the year 95, it doesn't match with Matt.

Like I said before, nobody knows for sure.

Like to add something to the discussion -

Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41  Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Refers to -

1Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

IMO that happened just before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the Lord saving His elect.

I know, it requires a new understanding of Revelation, quite some puzzle!

[Sojourner]

My two cents: Aside from the quote by Irenaeus that Slug mentioned, both Victorinus and Eusebius also recorded that it was Domitian who exiled John to Patmos. Since the Revelation was written during that exile, the earliest it could have been penned was at the beginning of Domitian's reign in AD 81, which was 11 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. Also consider the following quotes by a number of the early church fathers:

Happy are you who endure the great tribulation that is coming. And happy are they who will not deny their own life. --Hermas (AD 150)

He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the most high, will venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us Christians. --Justin Martyr (AD 160)

Once the Antichrist has devastated everything in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem. And then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds. --Irenaeus (AD 180)

(Note that Irenaeus obviously believed the man of sin would sit in a third temple, since the second temple was already destroyed when he wrote this).

In the crisis of the last moment, and from their instantaneous death while encountering the oppression of the antichrist, these persons will also undergo a change. --Tertullian (AD 207)

After the destruction of the Antichrist there will be speedily transacted the process of the resurrection. --Tertullian (AD 210)

When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring up from the beast in the last days, then the Antichrist will appear among them. When he makes war against the saints and persecutes them, then we can expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven. --Hippolytus (AD 205)

Even the Antichrist, when he comes, will not be allowed to enter into the church just because he threatens. We will not yield to his arms and violence, even though he declares that he will destroy us if we resist... --Cyprian (AD 250)

If the Antichrist's persecution of the church foretold in the Revelation were fulfilled under Nero prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, why were the ECF's still writing about it as a future event so many years later?  How could they have been unaware the reign of the Antichrist had occurred? It's clear to me that the beast's rise to power and ultimate destruction by Christ are yet in the future.

[Slug1]

What you said is just one of the many opinions, the problem is the year 95, it doesn't match with Matt.

Like I said before, nobody knows for sure.

There are facts we do know for sure. In The Revelation, the ACs actions are foretold and an opinion is that Nero was the AC foretold in vision given to John. As I pointed out in a response to Rabbiknife, Nero fails to do what the AC is revealed to do against not only Israel, but to the entire world. We know what Nero does based on historic accounts that are documented and maintained. To say he fit the bill of the AC from Revelation, is to ignore the accounts of his actions against the Jews.

It may be a tiny historic account but what happened to Antipas being martyred, is a large fact to account for. All Preterists who I've spoken with will not, in my opinion, honestly address the account of his death in AD92.

Like to add something to the discussion -

Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41  Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Refers to -

1Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

IMO that happened just before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the Lord saving His elect.

Paul's letters to the Thessalonians conquered with Jesus' revealing of what is referred to as The Rapture. 1 Thess speaks of Paul's confirming what will happen in the future in relation to your point from Matthew 24. If you go on to 2 Thess 2, Paul has to readdress the topic because the people in Thessalonica are kinda freaking out because a false letter (2 Thess 2:2) said Christ had returned and the Christians wondered why weren't they taken by Jesus as they are/were taught? Why should they continue their Kingdom work amidst the persecution?

Furthermore, 2 Thess 2 is a powerful part of that letter for refuting the opinion that Nero was the AC. Nero did not have a "religious" leader (the 2nd beast) that did actual supernatural signs and wonders to prove Nero is to be worshiped as God. Paul fully describes elements of the AC and the false prophet in this letter that are later, made more clear with the vision provided to John. Nero fails to check so many boxes about the AC, it is impossible to accept that he was the AC described in The Revelation.

I know, it requires a new understanding of Revelation, quite some puzzle!

This is not about a new understanding of The Revelation, it is about a correct understanding.
Edit - formating

[Slug1]

Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41  Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Refers to -

1Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

IMO that happened just before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the Lord saving His elect.

I know, it requires a new understanding of Revelation, quite some puzzle!

I wanted to ask earlier but I try to keep responses as short as possible and prefer multiple responses for the purpose of focusing.

Concerning Matthew 24. Prior to your quoted verses in this and the other earlier post, Jesus places context to His lesson as He raises Isaiah 13 concerning the destruction of Babylon. We find this in Matthew 24 v29+ which is about what the OT Scriptures reveal in Isaiah 13. We know this as "apocalyptic language" as judgement will come upon Babylon (at the time of Isaiah prophesying) and judgement upon the world, as Jesus prophesies. Jesus is proclaiming calamity that will happen. He then specifies at Matthew 24 v30, He will come in power upon the entire world (as detailed later, in The Revelation).

He didn't come in "power" upon the entire world (at or prior to AD70) and slay all who have no faith in Him. He hasn't (yet) gathered all who have faith per the Matt 40+ and 1 Thess 4 verses. If He did, then the Thessalonian's truly had a problem being left behind.

Now, judgement/calamity against the Nation of Israel, YES as we see through what the Roman Empire did in Jerusalem and to the Jewish people. But to say Jesus returned... no. That judgement came upon all the earth... no.

We have to remember that most prophecy in the Bible has a short term fulfillment and also, a long term fulfillment. Jesus spoke of BOTH judgement upon Israel and also, judgement upon all the earth. AD70 was the short term fulfillment of prophecy (He didn't return in power at that time) and as time continues toward the future, the long term fulfillment will begin and He will return in power as revealed in Matt 24, The Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.

[ProDeo]

Matt 24 one more time....

Matt 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

To what chapter is Christ referring?, likely chapter 12, it states -

Dan 12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?”
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”
Dan 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

1290 days is about 3 years and 6½ month. That is very close to the first Jewish revolt started in AD 66 and ended in AD 70 with the well known outcome.

[Billy Evmur]

Oh I thought the Great Tribulation, the Jews are really going to get it, after all isn't it called the time of Jacob's trouble?

But what does the bible say?

Jeremiah 30.4-11
These are the words which the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah
thus says the Lord
we have heard a cry of panic, of terror and no peace.
Ask now and see, can a man bear a child?
why then do I see every man with his hands on his loins like a woman in labour? why is every face turned pale?

Alas for that day is so great, there is no day like it, it is even the day of Jacob's trouble but he shall be saved out of it

And it shall come to pass in that day says the Lord of hosts that I will break the yoke from off their neck and I will burst the bonds and strangers shall no more make servants of them. But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.

Therefore FEAR NOT O JACOB My servant says the Lord
NOR BE DISMAYED O ISRAEL for lo I will save you from afar and your offspring from the land of your captivity.

Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease and none shall make him afraid. For I am with you to SAVE YOU says the Lord.
I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I have scattered you but of you I will not make a full end. I will chasten you in measure and I will by no means leave you unpunished.

It is not only Jeremiah who teaches that the Jews are to be kept safe in the Great Tribulation, in fact ALL the prophets say it.

Just to give one example for now.
Daniel 12.
At that time shall arise Michael the great prince who has the charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble such as never has been since there was a nation till that time ....

... BUT AT THAT TIME YOUR PEOPLE WILL BE DELIVERED.

[Slug1]

Matt 24 one more time....

Matt 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),

To what chapter is Christ referring?, likely chapter 12, it states -

Dan 12:1 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:6 And someone said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?”
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, “O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?”
Dan 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.”

1290 days is about 3 years and 6½ month. That is very close to the first Jewish revolt started in AD 66 and ended in AD 70 with the well known outcome.

I addressed some of Matthew 24 in the previous post (#21). The only response I will make for now in relation to your posting of a few more Mt 24 verses and key verses from Daniel is this: 

This abomination takes place at the start of the 2nd half of the Tribulation as described in greater detail when we add the context of OT prophets, Matthew 24 and The Revelation. Here is another reason why I cannot hold to the Tribulation happening years ago. If the destruction of the temple is a culmination of the 2nd approximate 3.5 year period of Israel being tormented by the ac, what was the ac doing to Israel prior to the 2nd half of the Tribulation period? What about the approx 3.5 years prior to the abomination happening? Meaning, 7 years prior to the destruction of the temple/Jerusalem, the ac "began" his influence upon the Jews and the entire world and persisted for an entire 7 year period.


Nero, the "ac" of Preterism failed in another prophetic verification for him being the ac, Nero was not alive in AD70. He did not last through the entire period of time Preterism claims is the "Great Tribulation," which culminated with the destruction of Jerusalem/the Temple. He didn't torment Israel for 7 years, as the ac must do based on prophecy.

[RabbiKnife]

Have we spent as much time telling others about Jesus today as we have pissing on the fence about nothing of any significance.

If partial preterists or amillenials are correct then all the pretrib folks are going to have a real problem if they don’t get the revelatory to escape the tribulation

If the pretrib folks are right then none of this matters in the slightest as no cxhristians are on earth at that time

So why fight over it?

So tell a Muslim about Jesus instead…

[ProDeo]

I am not fighting, just wanna know what happened in the AD 70 period. There is certainly room for unfulfilled prophecy such as Zachariah 14 -

Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.

Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

[Slug1]

Have we spent as much time telling others about Jesus today as we have pissing on the fence about nothing of any significance.

If partial preterists or amillenials are correct then all the pretrib folks are going to have a real problem if they don’t get the revelatory to escape the tribulation

If the pretrib folks are right then none of this matters in the slightest as no cxhristians are on earth at that time

So why fight over it?

So tell a Muslim about Jesus instead…

There is absolutely zero fighting going on, only discussion brother. I hope discussion is allowed to continue.

[Slug1]

I am not fighting, just wanna know what happened in the AD 70 period. There is certainly room for unfulfilled prophecy such as Zachariah 14 -

Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.

Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Hooah. V2 is a key in illuminating this prophecy as yet unfulfilled till now and clearly will be at a future time. Reason, v2 details that half the Jews of the city will be exiled and other half of the Jews will remain (not cut off/exiled), in the city. Historically AD70, The Romans (under Titus' military command) destroyed the city and any who remained and didn't escape, were killed or enslaved.

[ProDeo]

I am not fighting, just wanna know what happened in the AD 70 period. There is certainly room for unfulfilled prophecy such as Zachariah 14 -

Zach 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zach 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle.

Zach 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Zach 14:5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

Hooah. V2 is a key in illuminating this prophecy as yet unfulfilled till now and clearly will be at a future time. Reason, v2 details that half the Jews of the city will be exiled and other half of the Jews will remain (not cut off/exiled), in the city. Historically AD70, The Romans (under Titus' military command) destroyed the city and any who remained and didn't escape, were killed or enslaved.

So in your opinion how should we interpret -

Matt 16 -
27  For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.
28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Do you thinks these people Jesus mentions have seen : the Son of Man coming in his kingdom ?

And / Or

Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council Matt 26 -

63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Do you think the high priest has seen : you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven ?