BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: RandyPNW on October 03, 2021, 12:41:45 PM
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On another forum, it was suggested that Feasts days might predict the time of the 2nd Coming. I answered as follows....
I think the Law was bound up in Christ's earthly ministry, and not in his 2nd Coming. For that reason, Christ fulfilled Passover, which was under the Law, by dying *apart from the Law.* In other words, the fulfillment was under a completely different system which the Law only foreshadowed. The fulfillment was different than the foreshadowing.
If so, then there is no necessary attachment between what was required under the Law and what Christ did to redeem us from our sins. The only connection is in the severance of the system of Law for a system it portrayed that was better than itself. One had to lead into the other.
Thus, Passover led directly into Christ, the Passover Lamb. And Christ's death fulfilled not just Passover but all of the Feasts at the cross. That's why we have something happen on the Day of Pentecost right after the cross which was *not* actual Pentecost under the Law. It just coincided with Pentecost, to show how Christ fulfilled both Passover and Pentecost.
And Christ's death also fulfilled the Day of Atonement by providing on the cross atonement for all sin. And so, all 3 Feasts connected with Christ's earthly ministry and death on the cross. That was the fulcrum separating the OT from the NT.
Fulfillment of the 2nd Coming is just the 2nd Act in what Christ performed on the cross. And it will happen when the Jewish nation comes to its final judgment, in preparation for their national restoration. We see that in the restoration of the State of Israel.
And we also have the Roman State evolved into a set of nations in Europe who are experiencing the predicted apostasy from the Christian faith. Furthermore, we've developed the technology necessary to build this European State into a world superpower, capable of propagandizing and manipulating the world into worship of Antichrist.
We're very close, but these are the signs we were given in Daniel and in the book of Revelation, as well as in 2 Thes 2. I don't see any necessary connection to Jewish Feast days under the Law that were already fulfilled at the cross?
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On another forum, it was suggested that Feasts days might predict the time of the 2nd Coming. I answered as follows....
I think the Law was bound up in Christ's earthly ministry, and not in his 2nd Coming. For that reason, Christ fulfilled Passover, which was under the Law, by dying *apart from the Law.* In other words, the fulfillment was under a completely different system which the Law only foreshadowed. The fulfillment was different than the foreshadowing.
If so, then there is no necessary attachment between what was required under the Law and what Christ did to redeem us from our sins. The only connection is in the severance of the system of Law for a system it portrayed that was better than itself. One had to lead into the other.
Thus, Passover led directly into Christ, the Passover Lamb. And Christ's death fulfilled not just Passover but all of the Feasts at the cross. That's why we have something happen on the Day of Pentecost right after the cross which was *not* actual Pentecost under the Law. It just coincided with Pentecost, to show how Christ fulfilled both Passover and Pentecost.
And Christ's death also fulfilled the Day of Atonement by providing on the cross atonement for all sin. And so, all 3 Feasts connected with Christ's earthly ministry and death on the cross. That was the fulcrum separating the OT from the NT.
Fulfillment of the 2nd Coming is just the 2nd Act in what Christ performed on the cross. And it will happen when the Jewish nation comes to its final judgment, in preparation for their national restoration. We see that in the restoration of the State of Israel.
And we also have the Roman State evolved into a set of nations in Europe who are experiencing the predicted apostasy from the Christian faith. Furthermore, we've developed the technology necessary to build this European State into a world superpower, capable of propagandizing and manipulating the world into worship of Antichrist.
We're very close, but these are the signs we were given in Daniel and in the book of Revelation, as well as in 2 Thes 2. I don't see any necessary connection to Jewish Feast days under the Law that were already fulfilled at the cross?
the 70th literal week of daniel is the 7 day feast of taberacles
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On another forum, it was suggested that Feasts days might predict the time of the 2nd Coming. I answered as follows....
I think the Law was bound up in Christ's earthly ministry, and not in his 2nd Coming. For that reason, Christ fulfilled Passover, which was under the Law, by dying *apart from the Law.* In other words, the fulfillment was under a completely different system which the Law only foreshadowed. The fulfillment was different than the foreshadowing.
If so, then there is no necessary attachment between what was required under the Law and what Christ did to redeem us from our sins. The only connection is in the severance of the system of Law for a system it portrayed that was better than itself. One had to lead into the other.
Thus, Passover led directly into Christ, the Passover Lamb. And Christ's death fulfilled not just Passover but all of the Feasts at the cross. That's why we have something happen on the Day of Pentecost right after the cross which was *not* actual Pentecost under the Law. It just coincided with Pentecost, to show how Christ fulfilled both Passover and Pentecost.
And Christ's death also fulfilled the Day of Atonement by providing on the cross atonement for all sin. And so, all 3 Feasts connected with Christ's earthly ministry and death on the cross. That was the fulcrum separating the OT from the NT.
Fulfillment of the 2nd Coming is just the 2nd Act in what Christ performed on the cross. And it will happen when the Jewish nation comes to its final judgment, in preparation for their national restoration. We see that in the restoration of the State of Israel.
And we also have the Roman State evolved into a set of nations in Europe who are experiencing the predicted apostasy from the Christian faith. Furthermore, we've developed the technology necessary to build this European State into a world superpower, capable of propagandizing and manipulating the world into worship of Antichrist.
We're very close, but these are the signs we were given in Daniel and in the book of Revelation, as well as in 2 Thes 2. I don't see any necessary connection to Jewish Feast days under the Law that were already fulfilled at the cross?
the 70th literal week of daniel is the 7 day feast of taberacles
I can see where you logically arrive at that, but I don't agree. The Scriptures do not say that.
The Feast of Tabernacles is OT law, which has expired. Therefore, any OT prophetic references to the endtimes utilized OT imagery to convey NT truth. It does not suggest a reestablishment of OT Law--not even as a memorial practice.
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The Feast of Tabernacles is OT law, which has expired. ... It does not suggest a reestablishment of OT Law--not even as a memorial practice.
Zechariah 14 says otherwise-
Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
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The Feast of Tabernacles is OT law, which has expired. ... It does not suggest a reestablishment of OT Law--not even as a memorial practice.
Zechariah 14 says otherwise-
Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
Hi friend. I can indeed see your perspective. It does sound like it's continuing, and would agree with you, if it wasn't for the NT Scriptures. :)
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Hi friend. I can indeed see your perspective. It does sound like it's continuing, and would agree with you, if it wasn't for the NT Scriptures. :)
So the end time prophecies don't mean what they say? How can we be sure of anything else the bible says?
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Hi friend. I can indeed see your perspective. It does sound like it's continuing, and would agree with you, if it wasn't for the NT Scriptures. :)
So the end time prophecies don't mean what they say? How can we be sure of anything else the bible says?
Christians view the words of Jesus the same way the Hebrews viewed the words of Moses, as confirmed by signs and wonders and also by the purity in the words themselves. Christians do not see the Law as symbolic in order to disqualify the validity of the Law. Obviously, when the Kingdom of God comes to earth, Israel will not have to worry about a temple, sacrifices, and a priesthood. Sin will no longer be a problem.
We Christians believe Jesus anticipated this, which led to the theology of Paul. When we look at this prophecies, as given when the Law was clearly in effect, we see it as symbolic of a time when it will no longer be needed as such. And Zechariah seems to confirm that...
Zech 14.20 On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.
Note how the sacred bowls become indistinguishable from regular cooking pots. The Law appears to have changed, no longer making such distinctions between the sacred and the secular.
And notice how this appears to be equated with profane Canaanites no longer mixing in with Judaism. The distinction between Jew and Gentile was an important element of the Law, and it appears to no longer be considered a problem at this time. This is not a change in the ethics of the Law, but rather, in the application of the Law.
For Christians, the Law changed after Jesus because the application of redemptive sacrifices became no longer necessary. And thus, the Feast of Tabernacles, together with its sacrificial system, changed and became symbolic of a new world order. At least, that's how I see it.
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I appreciate the time you took to formulate and type this lengthy answer. Unfortunately it does not address my point. The plain text of Zechariah says that in the messianic era, all the nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. If the plain text of the bible doesn't mean what it says, then how can we trust the bible for anything at all?
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Messianic Era, please explain?
It's my understanding of scripture that Jesus Christ returns and its (The End)?
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Messianic Era, please explain?
Hi, just so you know, I am not a Christian but a practicing Jew, so my outlook may seem unusual or even heretical to you. Anyway. Clearly Zechariah 14 speaks of a distant time (for him) where God will "will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it..." the aftermath of which will be "The Lord will be king over the whole earth." The land of Israel "will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure." Furtermore "This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. " Also "the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles."
This is all in the plain text.
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Messianic Era, please explain?
Hi, just so you know, I am not a Christian but a practicing Jew, so my outlook may seem unusual or even heretical to you. Anyway. Clearly Zechariah 14 speaks of a distant time (for him) where God will "will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it..." the aftermath of which will be "The Lord will be king over the whole earth." The land of Israel "will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure." Furtermore "This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. " Also "the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles."
This is all in the plain text.
Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.
(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below
(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of Armageddon.
(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.
(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5
(Verse 8 ) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5
(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.
(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13
2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
"The Eternal Kingdom"!
Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
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I appreciate the time you took to formulate and type this lengthy answer. Unfortunately it does not address my point. The plain text of Zechariah says that in the messianic era, all the nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. If the plain text of the bible doesn't mean what it says, then how can we trust the bible for anything at all?
Yes, I know what you mean. I'm just offering an explanation as to why most Christians would explain it if they hold the viewpoint I do. Most Christians of the "evangelical" variety, believe that historic Christianity considers the Law a "dead letter." And that's not out of disrespect for God's Law, nor out of disrespect for the Jewish People.
Rather, Christians see the Law as "gone" because an answer to the perennial problem of a Sin Nature stopped needing to be dealt with. Therefore, any references to a future Millennial era in the Prophets would likely use the language of the Law, because it was still in vogue at that time. And God would not want to discourage keeping the Law when it was considered critical.
But those verses, being used of a Law that would no longer be in effect in the future, could still serve, symbolically, to portray similar truths in the Messianic era. And that's what I'm saying I think we are to take from this.
We cannot take it literally because the Law, for us, is no longer in place, and is no longer needed. And we can't take it literally because even the language suggests that a change will take place, making application of the Law different.
Who knows what "keeping the Feast of Tabernacles" would mean in the Messianic era? For one thing, Gentiles didn't keep any of the Jewish feasts! So we know that this could be symbolic of something--we just don't know what!
Zech 14.16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.
The big question for me would be: do the Scriptures normally use technical celebrations in a symbolic way? Or are proper nouns not always to be taken literally in the Scriptures? I find the Scriptures to sometimes be symbolic, with words used quite flexibly. So it may be a subjective judgment we have to make, with reference to the context, of course.
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Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.
Yeah, I don't really like the cross referencing to other biblical books like this. Especially when it's an "out" for understanding the literal text as something else other than what it says.
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Zechariah chapter 14 represents the eternal kingdom in the New Heaven and Earth, the feast of tabernacles will be observed eternally, just as the new moons and sabbath as seen in Isaiah 66:23 below
Isaiah 66:23KJV
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord
You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)
Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
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We cannot take it literally because the Law, for us, is no longer in place, and is no longer needed.
Then you have a problem, because God clearly says otherwise in this instance.
Who knows what "keeping the Feast of Tabernacles" would mean in the Messianic era? For one thing, Gentiles didn't keep any of the Jewish feasts! So we know that this could be symbolic of something--we just don't know what!
Or maybe it means exactly what it says. The nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate this festival.
The big question for me would be: do the Scriptures normally use technical celebrations in a symbolic way?
Maybe you should read what the text says and not what you wish it said?
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You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event
I am not really understanding this juxtaposition.
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Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.
Yeah, I don't really like the cross referencing to other biblical books like this. Especially when it's an "out" for understanding the literal text as something else other than what it says.
The Old Testament Is Very Clear, The Lord Will Return In Fire And Judgement
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
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You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event
I am not really understanding this juxtaposition.
The point is very clear, Zechariah chapter 14 represents the eternal kingdom after the resurrection and final judgement takes place, the book of life "Was" opened, judgement is past
The Eternal Kingdom seen in Ezekiel chapter 47 is now in action
Isaiah 4:3KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
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The Old Testament Is Very Clear, The Lord Will Return In Fire And Judgement
Sigh. We already have someone here who's all about the fire and judgement. I actually think that most of us will be fine with the coming of the Messiah.
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The point is very clear, Zechariah chapter 14 represents the eternal kingdom after the resurrection and final judgement takes place
It doesn't say any of those things. It simply says that the nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate a biblical holiday. Why read more into it than what the text says?
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The Old Testament Is Very Clear, The Lord Will Return In Fire And Judgement
Sigh. We already have someone here who's all about the fire and judgement. I actually think that most of us will be fine with the coming of the Messiah.
We will disagree, it's not about what man wants to happen, but what Gods words of truth clearly states
You have been clearly shown, the Lord returns in fire and final judgement as seen below
Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.
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The point is very clear, Zechariah chapter 14 represents the eternal kingdom after the resurrection and final judgement takes place
It doesn't say any of those things. It simply says that the nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate a biblical holiday. Why read more into it than what the text says?
The scripture is very clear, man will be dissolved by the Lords fire in judgement, as he stands on his feet, as you disregard this factual truth before your eyes "Why"?
Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
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You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event
I am not really understanding this juxtaposition.
Fenris, do you hold the Rabbinical Talmud as valuable to your faith and understanding of God?
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We will disagree, it's not about what man wants to happen, but what Gods words of truth clearly states
Nowhere does it say that God is going to go around smiting everyone with fire or whatever.
You claim that
the scripture is very clear, man will be dissolved by the Lords fire in judgement
but then cite a verse that says nothing of the sort.
And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem
Don't fight against Jerusalem, don't get the plague. Seems simple to me.
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Fenris, do you hold the Rabbinical Talmud as valuable to your faith and understanding of God?
The understanding of God through His commandments, yes.
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Rather than going through all the effort to explain why the bible doesn't mean what it says, why not try to figure out why this holiday in particular will be celebrated by the nations of the world?
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it's my opinion you want to make the bible state what Fenris wants it to say, I have clearly explained my position and we disagree
Yes there is a feat of tabernacles seen, but it's going to be in the Eternal kingdom, and not on this earth, that's my opinion and it's not changing
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it's my opinion you want to make the bible state what Fenris wants it to say
I don't generally refer to myself in the third person, but maybe I should give it a try.
I have clearly explained my position and we disagree
You have explained your position. But you haven't explained why I should ignore the plain text in favor of your more esoteric explanation.
Yes there is a feat of tabernacles seen,
Why "Tabernacles"? Why doesn't the bible just say "a feast"? It must mean something, no?
but it's going to be in the Eternal kingdom, and not on this earth, that's my opinion and it's not changing
Fenris too shall not change his opinion.
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Esoteric Explanation? Big Smiles
Leave that to those who follow the Esoteric Kabbalah
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Esoteric Explanation? Big Smiles
;D
Leave that to those who follow the Esoteric Kabbalah
I don't follow Kabbalah.
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Fenris, do you hold the Rabbinical Talmud as valuable to your faith and understanding of God?
The understanding of God through His commandments, yes.
So you believe the Rabbinical Talmud is useful, and you "Endorse" its usage?
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So you believe the Rabbinical Talmud is useful, and you "Endorse" its usage?
I believe the knowledge contained therein is necessary to lead a proper Jewish life. It doesn't really have any application for you though. Although I understand that there are schools in South Korea that study it for intellectual purposes.
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So you believe the Rabbinical Talmud is useful, and you "Endorse" its usage?
I believe the knowledge contained therein is necessary to lead a proper Jewish life. It doesn't really have any application for you though. Although I understand that there are schools in South Korea that study it for intellectual purposes.
What are your feelings on the Talmuds teachings regarding Goyim/Gentiles?
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We cannot take it literally because the Law, for us, is no longer in place, and is no longer needed.
Then you have a problem, because God clearly says otherwise in this instance.
Who knows what "keeping the Feast of Tabernacles" would mean in the Messianic era? For one thing, Gentiles didn't keep any of the Jewish feasts! So we know that this could be symbolic of something--we just don't know what!
Or maybe it means exactly what it says. The nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate this festival.
The big question for me would be: do the Scriptures normally use technical celebrations in a symbolic way?
Maybe you should read what the text says and not what you wish it said?
We are at loggerheads. My belief is that biblical language, particularly in the Prophets, is used and applied flexibly. This is especially so when speaking of an era when the entire environment has changed, rendering the Law of no effect.
It's value, then, for me is symbolic. And that's how I think it was used. In my view, I don't have the problem. Rather, the problem is yours if you think the Sin Problem has not yet been dealt with. As the letter of Hebrews indicates, those who are required repeat rituals of redemption and purification aren't really redeemed or purified in the "final" sense.
As Christians we feel that Messiah has already come and accomplished this for anybody who cares to appropriate his life for their own. That is, they choose to live their life from henceforth for him alone.
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What are your feelings on the Talmuds teachings regarding Goyim/Gentiles?
Gentiles are generally not mentioned. It's 63 volumes totaling over 5,000 pages almost entirely about the finer points Jewish law and the logical tools used to determine them. Is there something specifically that you wanted to talk about? Maybe start another topic about it?
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We are at loggerheads. My belief is that biblical language, particularly in the Prophets, is used and applied flexibly.
And yet the language must mean something. Why specifically the holiday of Tabernacles? It could have used any other holiday, or even no holiday at all. You don't just get to hand wave this way.
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We are at loggerheads. My belief is that biblical language, particularly in the Prophets, is used and applied flexibly.
And yet the language must mean something. Why specifically the holiday of Tabernacles? It could have used any other holiday, or even no holiday at all. You don't just get to hand wave this way.
[handwave] yes, I do. I don't honestly have an answer to this...yet. I suppose I haven't given it enough thought. Your concern has not been my concern. But yes, I'm curious: Why this particular celebration? I'm thinking, but don't wait till the water boils.....
Well, okay, I'll just suggest this...
Zech 14.16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
I believe God used the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles as an explicit recognition of Israel's right to inhabit and to inherit the land of Canaan, the land of Palestine, or whatever you want to call it. The Arabs and the Muslims, along with the United Nations, have all had trouble recognizing Israel's right to exist in their traditional land of covenant. And God is going to make all of these acknowledge that He has given them this land today as an everlasting covenant. He has forgiven their sin.
Well, this is projected into the future because I believe it will happen following the Coming of Messiah. It will be the Kingdom age, in which Israel is able to live at peace with their neighbors, and acknowledged in the world as a people of God.
Why Tabernacles?--it is because this was the celebration of their voyage through the Wilderness, following their exodus from Egypt. And though Israel turned back to idolatry, as in the days of Ahab and Jezebel, the nations who are rebellious like Ahab was will experience a great drought, unless they acknowledge God's prophetic guarantee of Israel's residence in the land of Israel.
Just like Egypt had to let Israel go, due to plagues put on them by the Lord, so also the nations will suffer plagues unless they acknowledge Israel's place in the Middle East. The nations will have to acknowledge that God has brought the Jews through a great Diaspora to give them back their land, just as Israel was made secure in the Wilderness until they came back to the land of their patriarchs.
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What are your feelings on the Talmuds teachings regarding Goyim/Gentiles?
Gentiles are generally not mentioned. It's 63 volumes totaling over 5,000 pages almost entirely about the finer points Jewish law and the logical tools used to determine them. Is there something specifically that you wanted to talk about? Maybe start another topic about it?
The Rabbinical Talumd Is "FILTH"!
Goyim = Gentile or Non Jew
Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L Jehovah created the goyim in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The goyim is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a goyim, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a goyim he may keep.
Baba Mezia 114b The goyim are not humans. They are beasts.
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies to circumvent a goyim.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Goyim girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: “Thank you God for not making me a goyim, a woman or a slave.”
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a goyim the wages owed him for work.
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a goyim it does not have to be returned.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Goyim prefer sex with cows.
Libbre David 37 To communicate anything to a goyim about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.
Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156 When a Jew has a goyim in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same goyim, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the goyim shall be ruined. For the property of a goyim, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it.
Hadarine, 20, B; Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348 A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat.
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I personally feel we should be able to ask questions about these quotations, without resorting to hostile comments. After all, those who believe in such things should be allowed a response before being accused. We may not be understanding the full context, for example.
Christian Scriptures acknowledge Jewish Scriptures, as well, which also condemn pagan Gentiles. Jesus didn't hesitate to refer to them as "dogs" on one occasion. Christians believe in the genocide of 7 Canaanite nations in the land of future Israel. Christians believe that God eradicated most of the world in the time of Noah, and erased the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah. We believe God engineered the destruction of Israel in the time of the Assyrians and the Babylonians, and that Israel was judged by God in the time of the ancient Romans.
Before allowing our non-Christian detractors to hurl insults at our Scriptures they should allow us to explain some of this as the prerogative of God. We need an opportunity to discuss the material without immediately going into battle-mode.
Furthermore, Jews have had hate thrown at them for 2 millennia, and would you stir up such anti-Semitism against them again? Again, asking questions to me is legitimate. Casting hateful rhetoric against the beliefs of some Jews should be refrained from, if an answer is even really wanted. Right?
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Hostile Comments, Jews have been hated for millennia, stirring antisemetism, casting hateful rhetoric?
All accusations in false claims, my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was a Jew, God manifest in the flesh
A mystery, who is the focus of your attention, the Christian presenting Gods "Truth"
Perhaps this is a prime example why only a handful of posters are participating in this forum, will the spirit of Antichrist prevail?
The Rabbinical Talmud is "Filth" the truth before your eyes
Jesus Is The Lord!
Mark 6:11KJV
11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Quotes Rabbinical Talmud:
Goyim = Gentile or Non Jew
Midrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L Jehovah created the goyim in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The goyim is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night.
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a goyim, there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a goyim he may keep.
Baba Mezia 114b The goyim are not humans. They are beasts.
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies to circumvent a goyim.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Goyim girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: “Thank you God for not making me a goyim, a woman or a slave.”
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a goyim the wages owed him for work.
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a goyim it does not have to be returned.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Goyim prefer sex with cows.
Libbre David 37 To communicate anything to a goyim about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.
Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156 When a Jew has a goyim in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same goyim, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the goyim shall be ruined. For the property of a goyim, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it.
Hadarine, 20, B; Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348 A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do. He may treat her as he treats a piece of meat.
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I've given Truth7t7 some time to enjoy his ham (24 hours). The 'filth' language above, coupled with his comment concerning ham (https://bibleforums.us/index.php?topic=195.msg3250#msg3250) isn't acceptable.
I'll extend that ban to forever if it happens again.
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Sorry, Fenris.
Apparently stupid and cruel have no limits.
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The Rabbinical Talumd Is "FILTH"!
Yup. I figured something like this was coming. Well, this is a lazy cut and paste from I have no idea where. The Talmud doesn't say these things. Some of the sources that you quote aren't even the Talmud. And they still don't say these things. Stop believing everything that you read on the internet. Really.
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Sorry, Fenris.
Apparently stupid and cruel have no limits.
LOL. Why are you apologizing? You didn't make those comments. We're old friends, you and I.
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Why Tabernacles?--it is because this was the celebration of their voyage through the Wilderness, following their exodus from Egypt.
I mean, this doesn't make a strong case. The holiday they celebrated in the wilderness is a reminder of the claim they have on the land of Israel?
There's a better way to see it, as illuminated to be from Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks (yes, he was knighted by the queen of England!)
He points out that there are two major biblical holiday arcs on the Jewish calendar.
The first is Passover- Shavuot- Sukkot
They take place in the spring, 49 days later for the first fruits, and then again at the harvest season.
Passover for the Exodus (obviously), Shavuot for the receiving of the ten commandments, and Sukkot for the 40 years in the desert.
There are Jewish specific holidays. The connect to specific events in Jewish history.
That's arc one.
The second arc is Rosh Hashanah- Yom Kippur- Sukkot
They all take place in the same month and are separated by a mere 14 days.
Rosh Hashanah is the beginning of the year, when God is crowned as king of mankind. Yom Kippur is the day of atonement, when God judges of all mankind. And Sukkot is when the ruling is handed out for all of mankind. Also, the sum of all the bulls sacrificed for the entire holiday totals 70, which is the number of nations in the world according to the bible (Genesis 10).
These are not Jewish specific holidays. While Jews celebrate them, they actually pertain to all of mankind.
Sukkot is the one holiday in both arcs, the Jewish specific holidays and the holidays that pertain to all of humanity. This makes it special, and that is perhaps why it will be celebrated by all of us in the messianic era- when all of us, Jew and gentile, are united under God's rule.
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Why Tabernacles?--it is because this was the celebration of their voyage through the Wilderness, following their exodus from Egypt.
I mean, this doesn't make a strong case. The holiday they celebrated in the wilderness is a reminder of the claim they have on the land of Israel?
There's a better way to see it, as illuminated to be from Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks (yes, he was knighted by the queen of England!)
He points out that there are two major biblical holiday arcs on the Jewish calendar.
The first is Passover- Shavuot- Sukkot
They take place in the spring, 49 days later for the first fruits, and then again at the harvest season.
Passover for the Exodus (obviously), Shavuot for the receiving of the ten commandments, and Sukkot for the 40 years in the desert.
There are Jewish specific holidays. The connect to specific events in Jewish history.
That's arc one.
The second arc is Rosh Hashanah- Yom Kippur- Sukkot
They all take place in the same month and are separated by a mere 14 days.
Rosh Hashanah is the beginning of the year, when God is crowned as king of mankind. Yom Kippur is the day of atonement, when God judges of all mankind. And Sukkot is when the ruling is handed out for all of mankind. Also, the sum of all the bulls sacrificed for the entire holiday totals 70, which is the number of nations in the world according to the bible (Genesis 10).
These are not Jewish specific holidays. While Jews celebrate them, they actually pertain to all of mankind.
Sukkot is the one holiday in both arcs, the Jewish specific holidays and the holidays that pertain to all of humanity. This makes it special, and that is perhaps why it will be celebrated by all of us in the messianic era- when all of us, Jew and gentile, are united under God's rule.
I know this very well, and though I appreciate the kind sentiments, passed on through Rabbi Sacks, I'm sticking by my guns. I was in the military, stationed in Germany, around Yom Kippur in 1973. It really looked bad for Israel at that time, because so much was stacked against it. I wrote President Nixon, requesting that we not, as a nation, abandon Israel in its time of need.
Of course, I didn't receive a direct reply from the President, but I received a good deal of info, indicating their support for Israel. And there were some personal comments from somebody representing the Administration.
Later I learned that the Soviet Union had threatened to get involved, to turn the tide completely against Israel. Nixon informed them that if they got involved against Israel, then we, the U.S., would also get involved. Yes, another possible nuclear stand off!
The rest is history. Israel came back and continued to prevail in her quest to obtain her full biblical state. The small portion that Britain left Israel was not as originally planned, and I'm a bit ashamed on behalf of my wife, who is British! The UN would only accept a partitioned state, which as we know is an utter disaster!
Nevertheless, Israel requires defensible borders, and enough land to provide the needed natural resources for a viable state. May the Lord continue to defend Israel's existence!
But I continue to stick by my guns because the 7th month feast, the Harvest Feast, represented Israel's journey through the Wilderness to obtain their promised land in Canaan. They would not have had to go through the Wilderness for an entire generation had they been willing to immediately enter in where "giants" lived. The pagan Gentiles looked formidable, and they were very ungodly and probably ruthless.
So the trip through the Wilderness was an example of God's grace in keeping Israel alive where they had failed until they got the 2nd chance to enter into the land promised to Israel. That's what Tabernacles represents to me, or Succoth. It is a guarantee of preservation until the promise of the land inheritance could be fulfilled.
So that's what the Gentiles' participation in Tabernacles means to me. It is not a verification that the actual Feast is still in effect, nor that the Law behind it is still in effect. Rather, it's the *culmination* of what they represented that will result in this, which appears to be a memorial of Israel's right to exist and to inherit the land that God had promised them.
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But I continue to stick by my guns because the 7th month feast
OK, we can agree to disagree. The rest of your comment is very nice. I still do look forward to the day when we will all be united under God's rule.
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I appreciate the time you took to formulate and type this lengthy answer. Unfortunately it does not address my point. The plain text of Zechariah says that in the messianic era, all the nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. If the plain text of the bible doesn't mean what it says, then how can we trust the bible for anything at all?
also the first 7 weeks of daniels prophecy is the time between passover and pentecost it is seperated from the other weeks as these 7 weeks passover is not needed again as the lamb the world thinks has arrived.so the 126 0 starts with the 7 weeks and ends with the fot.
as you know the jewish year is reall compressed in 180 days between passover and end of pentecost.
now the gentiles see 1260 days the jews stlll are observing passover and start the year acording to the lunar moon. thus the 1260 and 1290 are the same
so you start the 1260 with the 7 weeks, the next 62 weeks are divided the next 3 years 21,21,20 +1 the 70th week thus ending the 1260 days.
thus the fot continues.
now 70th week brings the destruction of babylon then the 1335 day return of christ.
now i still can see the 1290 lietally 30 days after1260
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as you know the jewish year is reall compressed in 180 days between passover and end of pentecost.
It is?
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as you know the jewish year is reall compressed in 180 days between passover and end of pentecost.
It is?
bibilically yes
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bibilically yes
Biblical source for this "fact"?
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[author=Fenris link=topic=161.msg3428#msg3428 date=1640552707]
iblical source for this "fact"?
that holy/feast days occur in a certain half year
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that holy/feast days occur in a certain half year
Yes, I'm aware of that. That doesn't mean that the year is 182.5 days long. Or, since the Jews have always used a lunar calendar, 177 days long.
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.....That's what Tabernacles represents to me, or Succoth. It is a guarantee of preservation until the promise of the land inheritance could be fulfilled.
So that's what the Gentiles' participation in Tabernacles means to me. It is not a verification that the actual Feast is still in effect, nor that the Law behind it is still in effect. Rather, it's the *culmination* of what they represented that will result in this, which appears to be a memorial of Israel's right to exist and to inherit the land that God had promised them.
The Feast of Tabernacles is to commemorate the blessing of harvesting Gods' provision while living in temporary shelters.
This is what believers in Jesus are doing now, reaping in people searching for God, while living in earthly bodies.