Feasts and the 2nd Coming

[RandyPNW]

On another forum, it was suggested that Feasts days might predict the time of the 2nd Coming. I answered as follows....

I think the Law was bound up in Christ's earthly ministry, and not in his 2nd Coming. For that reason, Christ fulfilled Passover, which was under the Law, by dying *apart from the Law.* In other words, the fulfillment was under a completely different system which the Law only foreshadowed. The fulfillment was different than the foreshadowing.

If so, then there is no necessary attachment between what was required under the Law and what Christ did to redeem us from our sins. The only connection is in the severance of the system of Law for a system it portrayed that was better than itself. One had to lead into the other.

Thus, Passover led directly into Christ, the Passover Lamb. And Christ's death fulfilled not just Passover but all of the Feasts at the cross. That's why we have something happen on the Day of Pentecost right after the cross which was *not* actual Pentecost under the Law. It just coincided with Pentecost, to show how Christ fulfilled both Passover and Pentecost.

And Christ's death also fulfilled the Day of Atonement by providing on the cross atonement for all sin. And so, all 3 Feasts connected with Christ's earthly ministry and death on the cross. That was the fulcrum separating the OT from the NT.

Fulfillment of the 2nd Coming is just the 2nd Act in what Christ performed on the cross. And it will happen when the Jewish nation comes to its final judgment, in preparation for their national restoration. We see that in the restoration of the State of Israel.

And we also have the Roman State evolved into a set of nations in Europe who are experiencing the predicted apostasy from the Christian faith. Furthermore, we've developed the technology necessary to build this European State into a world superpower, capable of propagandizing and manipulating the world into worship of Antichrist.

We're very close, but these are the signs we were given in Daniel and in the book of Revelation, as well as in 2 Thes 2. I don't see any necessary connection to Jewish Feast days under the Law that were already fulfilled at the cross?

[ross3421]

On another forum, it was suggested that Feasts days might predict the time of the 2nd Coming. I answered as follows....

I think the Law was bound up in Christ's earthly ministry, and not in his 2nd Coming. For that reason, Christ fulfilled Passover, which was under the Law, by dying *apart from the Law.* In other words, the fulfillment was under a completely different system which the Law only foreshadowed. The fulfillment was different than the foreshadowing.

If so, then there is no necessary attachment between what was required under the Law and what Christ did to redeem us from our sins. The only connection is in the severance of the system of Law for a system it portrayed that was better than itself. One had to lead into the other.

Thus, Passover led directly into Christ, the Passover Lamb. And Christ's death fulfilled not just Passover but all of the Feasts at the cross. That's why we have something happen on the Day of Pentecost right after the cross which was *not* actual Pentecost under the Law. It just coincided with Pentecost, to show how Christ fulfilled both Passover and Pentecost.

And Christ's death also fulfilled the Day of Atonement by providing on the cross atonement for all sin. And so, all 3 Feasts connected with Christ's earthly ministry and death on the cross. That was the fulcrum separating the OT from the NT.

Fulfillment of the 2nd Coming is just the 2nd Act in what Christ performed on the cross. And it will happen when the Jewish nation comes to its final judgment, in preparation for their national restoration. We see that in the restoration of the State of Israel.

And we also have the Roman State evolved into a set of nations in Europe who are experiencing the predicted apostasy from the Christian faith. Furthermore, we've developed the technology necessary to build this European State into a world superpower, capable of propagandizing and manipulating the world into worship of Antichrist.

We're very close, but these are the signs we were given in Daniel and in the book of Revelation, as well as in 2 Thes 2. I don't see any necessary connection to Jewish Feast days under the Law that were already fulfilled at the cross?

the 70th literal week of daniel is the 7 day feast of taberacles

[RandyPNW]

On another forum, it was suggested that Feasts days might predict the time of the 2nd Coming. I answered as follows....

I think the Law was bound up in Christ's earthly ministry, and not in his 2nd Coming. For that reason, Christ fulfilled Passover, which was under the Law, by dying *apart from the Law.* In other words, the fulfillment was under a completely different system which the Law only foreshadowed. The fulfillment was different than the foreshadowing.

If so, then there is no necessary attachment between what was required under the Law and what Christ did to redeem us from our sins. The only connection is in the severance of the system of Law for a system it portrayed that was better than itself. One had to lead into the other.

Thus, Passover led directly into Christ, the Passover Lamb. And Christ's death fulfilled not just Passover but all of the Feasts at the cross. That's why we have something happen on the Day of Pentecost right after the cross which was *not* actual Pentecost under the Law. It just coincided with Pentecost, to show how Christ fulfilled both Passover and Pentecost.

And Christ's death also fulfilled the Day of Atonement by providing on the cross atonement for all sin. And so, all 3 Feasts connected with Christ's earthly ministry and death on the cross. That was the fulcrum separating the OT from the NT.

Fulfillment of the 2nd Coming is just the 2nd Act in what Christ performed on the cross. And it will happen when the Jewish nation comes to its final judgment, in preparation for their national restoration. We see that in the restoration of the State of Israel.

And we also have the Roman State evolved into a set of nations in Europe who are experiencing the predicted apostasy from the Christian faith. Furthermore, we've developed the technology necessary to build this European State into a world superpower, capable of propagandizing and manipulating the world into worship of Antichrist.

We're very close, but these are the signs we were given in Daniel and in the book of Revelation, as well as in 2 Thes 2. I don't see any necessary connection to Jewish Feast days under the Law that were already fulfilled at the cross?

the 70th literal week of daniel is the 7 day feast of taberacles

I can see where you logically arrive at that, but I don't agree. The Scriptures do not say that.

The Feast of Tabernacles is OT law, which has expired. Therefore, any OT prophetic references to the endtimes utilized OT imagery to convey NT truth.  It does not suggest a reestablishment of OT Law--not even as a memorial practice.

[Fenris]

The Feast of Tabernacles is OT law, which has expired. ... It does not suggest a reestablishment of OT Law--not even as a memorial practice.

Zechariah 14 says otherwise-

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.  If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.  If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.  This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

[RandyPNW]

The Feast of Tabernacles is OT law, which has expired. ... It does not suggest a reestablishment of OT Law--not even as a memorial practice.

Zechariah 14 says otherwise-

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.  If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.  If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.  This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

Hi friend. I can indeed see your perspective. It does sound like it's continuing, and would agree with you, if it wasn't for the NT Scriptures.

[Fenris]

Hi friend. I can indeed see your perspective. It does sound like it's continuing, and would agree with you, if it wasn't for the NT Scriptures.

So the end time prophecies don't mean what they say? How can we be sure of anything else the bible says?

[RandyPNW]

Hi friend. I can indeed see your perspective. It does sound like it's continuing, and would agree with you, if it wasn't for the NT Scriptures.

So the end time prophecies don't mean what they say? How can we be sure of anything else the bible says?

Christians view the words of Jesus the same way the Hebrews viewed the words of Moses, as confirmed by signs and wonders and also by the purity in the words themselves. Christians do not see the Law as symbolic in order to disqualify the validity of the Law. Obviously, when the Kingdom of God comes to earth, Israel will not have to worry about a temple, sacrifices, and a priesthood. Sin will no longer be a problem.

We Christians believe Jesus anticipated this, which led to the theology of Paul. When we look at this prophecies, as given when the Law was clearly in effect, we see it as symbolic of a time when it will no longer be needed as such. And Zechariah seems to confirm that...

Zech 14.20 On that day holy to the Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.

Note how the sacred bowls become indistinguishable from regular cooking pots. The Law appears to have changed, no longer making such distinctions between the sacred and the secular.

And notice how this appears to be equated with profane Canaanites no longer mixing in with Judaism. The distinction between Jew and Gentile was an important element of the Law, and it appears to no longer be considered a problem at this time. This is not a change in the ethics of the Law, but rather, in the application of the Law.

For Christians, the Law changed after Jesus because the application of redemptive sacrifices became no longer necessary. And thus, the Feast of Tabernacles, together with its sacrificial system, changed and became symbolic of a new world order. At least, that's how I see it.

[Fenris]

I appreciate the time you took to formulate and type this lengthy answer. Unfortunately it does not address my point. The plain text of Zechariah says that in the messianic era, all the nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. If the plain text of the bible doesn't mean what it says, then how can we trust the bible for anything at all?

[Truth7t7]

Messianic Era, please explain?

It's my understanding of scripture that Jesus Christ returns and its (The End)?

[Fenris]

Messianic Era, please explain?

Hi, just so you know, I am not a Christian but a practicing Jew, so my outlook may seem unusual or even heretical to you. Anyway. Clearly Zechariah 14 speaks of a distant time (for him) where God will "will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it..." the aftermath of which will be "The Lord will be king over the whole earth." The land of Israel "will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure." Furtermore "This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. " Also "the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles."

This is all in the plain text.

[Truth7t7]

Messianic Era, please explain?

Hi, just so you know, I am not a Christian but a practicing Jew, so my outlook may seem unusual or even heretical to you. Anyway. Clearly Zechariah 14 speaks of a distant time (for him) where God will "will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it..." the aftermath of which will be "The Lord will be king over the whole earth." The land of Israel "will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure." Furtermore "This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. " Also "the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles."

This is all in the plain text.

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of Armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8 ) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

[RandyPNW]

I appreciate the time you took to formulate and type this lengthy answer. Unfortunately it does not address my point. The plain text of Zechariah says that in the messianic era, all the nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. If the plain text of the bible doesn't mean what it says, then how can we trust the bible for anything at all?

Yes, I know what you mean. I'm just offering an explanation as to why most Christians would explain it if they hold the viewpoint I do. Most Christians of the "evangelical" variety, believe that historic Christianity considers the Law a "dead letter." And that's not out of disrespect for God's Law, nor out of disrespect for the Jewish People.

Rather, Christians see the Law as "gone" because an answer to the perennial problem of a Sin Nature stopped needing to be dealt with. Therefore, any references to a future Millennial era in the Prophets would likely use the language of the Law, because it was still in vogue at that time. And God would not want to discourage keeping the Law when it was considered critical.

But those verses, being used of a Law that would no longer be in effect in the future, could still serve, symbolically, to portray similar truths in the Messianic era. And that's what I'm saying I think we are to take from this.

We cannot take it literally because the Law, for us, is no longer in place, and is no longer needed. And we can't take it literally because even the language suggests that a change will take place, making application of the Law different.

Who knows what "keeping the Feast of Tabernacles" would mean in the Messianic era? For one thing, Gentiles didn't keep any of the Jewish feasts! So we know that this could be symbolic of something--we just don't know what!

Zech 14.16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

The big question for me would be: do the Scriptures normally use technical celebrations in a symbolic way? Or are proper nouns not always to be taken literally in the Scriptures? I find the Scriptures to sometimes be symbolic, with words used quite flexibly. So it may be a subjective judgment we have to make, with reference to the context, of course.

[Fenris]

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

Yeah, I don't really like the cross referencing to other biblical books like this. Especially when it's an "out" for understanding the literal text as something else other than what it says.

[Truth7t7]

Zechariah chapter 14 represents the eternal kingdom in the New Heaven and Earth, the feast of tabernacles will be observed eternally, just as the new moons and sabbath as seen in Isaiah 66:23 below

Isaiah 66:23KJV
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

You will closely note, Zechariah 14:16 & Isaiah 4:3-4 are "Parallel" readings of the same event, as Isaiah gives a clear account of those who are left, those who are found in the book of life, the final judgement has passed, eternity has begun "After" The Day Of The Lord

You will closely note in Isaiah 4:4 below, Jerusalem will be purged by the spirit of (Judgement) & (Burning)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Only The Righteous Are Left, The Book Of Life "Was" Opened (Every One That Is Written Among The Living)

Zechariah 14:16KJV
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isaiah 4:3-4KJV
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Revelation 21:24-27KJV
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[Fenris]

We cannot take it literally because the Law, for us, is no longer in place, and is no longer needed.

Then you have a problem, because God clearly says otherwise in this instance.

Who knows what "keeping the Feast of Tabernacles" would mean in the Messianic era? For one thing, Gentiles didn't keep any of the Jewish feasts! So we know that this could be symbolic of something--we just don't know what!

Or maybe it means exactly what it says. The nations will come to Jerusalem to celebrate this festival.

The big question for me would be: do the Scriptures normally use technical celebrations in a symbolic way?

Maybe you should read what the text says and not what you wish it said?