Eternal Torment vs Annihilation

[Slug1]

Killed, exterminated, etc. are terms that can mean annihilated.

You are ignoring the Hebrew defining of the terms utilized. If you held to what Scripture is saying, not what English is saying, then Scripture will be able to illuminate the truth in what God is saying. Once this illumination is accepted, then Revelation 20 can be understood.

[Slug1]

Yes, and the word used is not translated as 'annihilation'. That's a word we'd impose in reading the text. Or something like that is what I'd imagine you're getting at?

Yes, we must accept what God says through His Word.  Verse 7 does not say He annihilated the evil doers per the "type" of annihilation Journeyman is imposing.

[journeyman]

Interesting. What scripture equates God's presence with the lake of fire,

A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97.3

Our God comes, he does not keep silence, before him is a devouring fire, round about him a mighty tempest. Psa.50:3

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire 2Thes.1:7-8

fire out of his mouth devoured Psa.18:8

 Is not my word like as a fire? Jer.23:9

our God is a consuming fire Heb.12:29

There's many more. The fire that destroys all evil is the presence of our Lord.

and how does that work in light of, say, Revelation 20?

The fire which came out of heaven is the Word of God. Being "cast into the fire" is just another way of saying the unsaved faced Christ on judgement day.

Jesus will come and he'll be glowing? No. His presence will set the entire universe on fire.

The point is to avoid making the claim entirely.

I'll make the claim about myself then. I admit i was wrong and needed correction.

[journeyman]

You are ignoring the Hebrew defining of the terms utilized. If you held to what Scripture is saying, not what English is saying, then Scripture will be able to illuminate the truth in what God is saying. Once this illumination is accepted, then Revelation 20 can be understood.

The great white throne judgement in Rev.20 and the judgement seat of Christ in 1Cor.3 are the same judgement. It's clear not only works must pass the fire, but people also. The fire is the presence of God.

[Athanasius]

Our God comes, he does not keep silence, before him is a devouring fire, round about him a mighty tempest. Psa.50:3

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire 2Thes.1:7-8

fire out of his mouth devoured Psa.18:8

 Is not my word like as a fire? Jer.23:9

our God is a consuming fire Heb.12:29

There's many more. The fire that destroys all evil is the presence of our Lord.

You're confusing fire with the lake of fire. So, anything?

The fire which came out of heaven is the Word of God. Being "cast into the fire" is just another way of saying the unsaved faced Christ on judgement day.

I'm not sure I follow. You had said that, "the presence of God is like an annihilating lake of fire to them" (the unsaved), yet we have judgement in v12, and in v15 those whose name was not found in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire. So how are you distinguishing between these two events? It seems like you're jamming them together.

Also, what about death and hades also being thrown in the lake of fire?

v14-15, "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Jesus will come and he'll be glowing? No. His presence will set the entire universe on fire.

Doubt (not that he won't be glowing, but that his mere presence will see everything burning).

[Slug1]

You are ignoring the Hebrew defining of the terms utilized. If you held to what Scripture is saying, not what English is saying, then Scripture will be able to illuminate the truth in what God is saying. Once this illumination is accepted, then Revelation 20 can be understood.

The great white throne judgement in Rev.20 and the judgement seat of Christ in 1Cor.3 are the same judgement. It's clear not only works must pass the fire, but people also. The fire is the presence of God.

What I encourage you to view in the verses, is that the torment is experienced forever. The torment does not end after they are found guilty, the torment begins when they are found guilty and removed eternally from the presence of God.

[journeyman]

You're confusing fire with the lake of fire. So, anything?

Im comparing the presence of our Lord to a lake of fire. Here's another one,

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Thes.2:8

The brightness of Christ's coming is like a lake of fire to the beast.

I'm not sure I follow. You had said that, "the presence of God is like an annihilating lake of fire to them" (the unsaved), yet we have judgement in v12, and in v15 those whose name was not found in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire. So how are you distinguishing between these two events? It seems like you're jamming them together.

Not jamming them at all. Works are tried at Christs judgement seat, where people are also tried,

 If someone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1Cor.3:15

The fire people are subjected to is the presence of Christ.

Also, what about death and hades also being thrown in the lake of fire?

v14-15, "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Death and the grave won't exist anymore, because Christ himself defeated them.

Doubt (not that he won't be glowing, but that his mere presence will see everything burning).

I believe the presence of God is like a raging inferno. The verses I cited say that.

[journeyman]

What I encourage you to view in the verses, is that the torment is experienced forever. The torment does not end after they are found guilty, the torment begins when they are found guilty and removed eternally from the presence of God.

Forever as it pertains to this life, not the next one.

[Slug1]

Forever as it pertains to this life, not the next one.

Do you have any Scripture that can support "this" age is forever? I can only find verses that teach the "next age" is forever.

[journeyman]

Do you have any Scripture that can support "this" age is forever? I can only find verses that teach the "next age" is forever.

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. Psa.77:3 (A long time, not eternal as God is)

and he shall serve him for ever. Exo.21:6 (For the rest of his life in this world, not eternal as God is)

the everlasting hills; Deut.33:15 (Very old, but not eternal as God is)

so shall it be in the end of this world. Mt.13:40 (aiōn forever, or age)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev.20:10 (to the age of the ages, for his entire life, for the evil he comitted throughout it, but not eternally like God)

[Athanasius]

Im comparing the presence of our Lord to a lake of fire. Here's another one,

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Thes.2:8

The brightness of Christ's coming is like a lake of fire to the beast.

I know that you're making the comparison, and I'm asking where that comparison justified in Scripture? I don't know how to take what you've done here with 2 Thessalonians 2:8 as anything other than eisgetical. That's not what the verse is saying.

Not jamming them at all. Works are tried at Christs judgement seat, where people are also tried,

If someone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1Cor.3:15

The fire people are subjected to is the presence of Christ.

Yes judgement, not punishment. You seem to be conflating the two.

Death and the grave won't exist anymore, because Christ himself defeated them.

I'm pointing out that they are places, not people.

The verses I cited say that.

Was Moses on the mountain toasty, or bright?

[Fenris]

I was sticking to how the Holy Spirit inspired Moses in writing and the Hebrew term given to Moses to describe the results of the flood upon mankind and animals.

The word in question in Genesis 6 is אֶמְחֶ֨ה , Strong's interpretation https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4229.htm

[Slug1]

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. Psa.77:3 (A long time, not eternal as God is)

and he shall serve him for ever. Exo.21:6 (For the rest of his life in this world, not eternal as God is)

the everlasting hills; Deut.33:15 (Very old, but not eternal as God is)

so shall it be in the end of this world. Mt.13:40 (aiōn forever, or age)

You just "piecemealed" severed "parts" of three verses. Doing such is literal twisting of scriptures.

Btw, here is a proper understanding of the use of "aion" in that verse:

Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiṓn) of the covenant – the time-period called the NT. It is characterized by Christ baptizing all believers in the Holy Spirit, i.e. engrafting all believers (OT, NT) into His mystical body (1 Cor 12:13) with all the marvelous privileges that go with that (Gal 3:23-25; 1 Pet 2:5,9).

Copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

Your piecemealing of scripture forms a "narrative" not aligned with the inspired intent of the Matthew scripture.

[Slug1]

I was sticking to how the Holy Spirit inspired Moses in writing and the Hebrew term given to Moses to describe the results of the flood upon mankind and animals.

The word in question in Genesis 6 is אֶמְחֶ֨ה , Strong's interpretation https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4229.htm

Hooah, somewhere I posted the whole page just about into a post of mine.

[Athanasius]

I was sticking to how the Holy Spirit inspired Moses in writing and the Hebrew term given to Moses to describe the results of the flood upon mankind and animals.

The word in question in Genesis 6 is אֶמְחֶ֨ה , Strong's interpretation https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4229.htm

What are your thoughts on the best translation of the word in context? Slug1 offered 'exterminate' earlier in the thread.