Eternal Torment vs Annihilation

[journeyman]

That is an incredible stretch. You're inventing ambiguity where there isn't any.

There's no difficulty seeing God's word is like fire.

[agnostic]

Oh, for sure. That analogy is made many times in the Bible.

That's not the stretch. The stretch is finding ambiguity in Revelation 11:5 just because it doesn't use the word "immediately" when it says the two witnesses will kill people with the fire of their mouth.

It's a profoundly exploitative "argument from silence".

[Slug1]

Journeyman, a answer that I fail to find in your posts is after a person has been judged by God and found to be not in the Book of Life (Christ is not in them), when do they cease to exist?

[Slug1]

Oh, for sure. That analogy is made many times in the Bible.

That's not the stretch. The stretch is finding ambiguity in Revelation 11:5 just because it doesn't use the word "immediately" when it says the two witnesses will kill people with the fire of their mouth.

It's a profoundly exploitative "argument from silence".

Agreed. Such an answer does address physical fire (somewhat), but does not address the spiritual nature that fire has when God's supernatural power is applied. Why, I can take J's conjecture and apply it to the three men tossed in the furnace and that ONLY rope will be consumed, not human flesh.

Anyway, J's answers fails to illuminate the nature of an "eternal fire" nor does J illuminate the nature of a resurrected body.

[journeyman]

Oh, for sure. That analogy is made many times in the Bible.

That's not the stretch. The stretch is finding ambiguity in Revelation 11:5 just because it doesn't use the word "immediately" when it says the two witnesses will kill people with the fire of their mouth.

It's a profoundly exploitative "argument from silence".

Not from silence at all. The Lord plainly taught against us killing his enemies.

[journeyman]

Journeyman, a answer that I fail to find in your posts is after a person has been judged by God and found to be not in the Book of Life (Christ is not in them), when do they cease to exist?

At that time, after suffering the truth about themselves in front of everyone.

[agnostic]

It says "anyone who wants to harm them must be killed in this manner". Which manner? The fire from their mouths.

And it drives the point home that the two witnesses also call down plagues: drought, water turned to blood, and "every kind of plague". This is straight out of Exodus, where the plagues were fatal.

These two witnesses are killing people. Claiming they don't kill people just because the word "immediately" isn't used exactly is an argument from silence.

[journeyman]

Agreed. Such an answer does address physical fire (somewhat), but does not address the spiritual nature that fire has when God's supernatural power is applied. Why, I can take J's conjecture and apply it to the three men tossed in the furnace and that ONLY rope will be consumed, not human flesh.

I thought the effect God's presence has goes without saying. Your example of the 3 in the fire illustrates the faithful won't be harmed by Christ. Those who wanted to harm the faithful, they'll die.

Anyway, J's answers fails to illuminate the nature of an "eternal fire" nor does J illuminate the nature of a resurrected body.

Ive been saying all along God's person is like fire and God is eternal. I think i told you Slug, the unsaved aren't raised immortal.

[journeyman]

It says "anyone who wants to harm them must be killed in this manner". Which manner? The fire from their mouths.

Yes, I know. God's  word spoken will judge them,

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Lk.10:16

And it drives the point home that the two witnesses also call down plagues: drought, water turned to blood, and "every kind of plague". This is straight out of Exodus, where the plagues were fatal.

These two witnesses are killing people. Claiming they don't kill people just because the word "immediately" isn't used exactly is an argument from silence.

It does sound much like Egypt and those plagues were for the purpose of repentance.

[Slug1]

Ive been saying all along God's person is like fire and God is eternal. I think i told you Slug, the unsaved aren't raised immortal.

Have you researched the Greek term "apollumi" for the English word, "destroyed?" I know that "annihilationist's" will use this term to mean total destruction (eliminated), but this also fails to understand the meaning of the term. It is more about loss of well-being. In conjunction with this condition, is that the loss lasts forever. Meaning the resurrection of the unrighteous must mean their forms are everlasting. Otherwise, the inspired term given to the writers to utilize, would make no sense if an unrighteous resurrected body was not eternal in nature.

[Fenris]

It does sound much like Egypt and those plagues were for the purpose of repentance.

That isn't in the text anywhere. Explicitly, in the text, those plagues were a punishment because the Egyptians would not allow the Hebrews to go free.

If one wishes to look further, the concept of God being glorified through the power of the plagues may be found. For example, Exodus 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them,  that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord.” And again in Exodus 11:9 The Lord had said to Moses, “Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.”

But repentance? Nowhere in the text.

[journeyman]

Have you researched the Greek term "apollumi" for the English word, "destroyed?" I know that "annihilationist's" will use this term to mean total destruction (eliminated), but this also fails to understand the meaning of the term. It is more about loss of well-being. In conjunction with this condition, is that the loss lasts forever. Meaning the resurrection of the unrighteous must mean their forms are everlasting. Otherwise, the inspired term given to the writers to utilize, would make no sense if an unrighteous resurrected body was not eternal in nature.

The meaning of  "apollumi" is debatable. The compassion of our Lord is not and does not describe never ending torment. It isn't in his nature to allow it.

[journeyman]

That isn't in the text anywhere. Explicitly, in the text, those plagues were a punishment because the Egyptians would not allow the Hebrews to go free.

If one wishes to look further, the concept of God being glorified through the power of the plagues may be found. For example, Exodus 10:1-2 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them,  that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord.” And again in Exodus 11:9 The Lord had said to Moses, “Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt.”

But repentance? Nowhere in the text.

The opportunity for repentance is offered to every sinner,

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom.9:16-18

[Slug1]

The meaning of  "apollumi" is debatable. The compassion of our Lord is not and does not describe never ending torment. It isn't in his nature to allow it.

We cannot fully understand His righteous nature, nor His sovereignty. What is revealed in Scripture about eternal punishment certainly "can be" fully within "His" righteousness and sovereignty.

If I may point out as well, the same Greek term for everlasting/eternal (Strongs 166), is used in Scriptures referring to life and punishment. Meaning, one cannot NOT be everlasting/eternal and the other IS everlasting/eternal. Your understanding concerning eternal punishment and eternal life puts the meaning of the term "at odds". You are attempting to "make" the meaning of the term mean two OPPOSITE meanings = only life is everlasting when the word is used, but the same term doesn't mean everlasting, when used for punishment.

[journeyman]

We cannot fully understand His righteous nature, nor His sovereignty. What is revealed in Scripture about eternal punishment certainly "can be" fully within "His" righteousness and sovereignty.

If I may point out as well, the same Greek term for everlasting/eternal (Strongs 166), is used in Scriptures referring to life and punishment. Meaning, one cannot NOT be everlasting/eternal and the other IS everlasting/eternal. Your understanding concerning eternal punishment and eternal life puts the meaning of the term "at odds". You are attempting to "make" the meaning of the term mean two OPPOSITE meanings = only life is everlasting when the word is used, but the same term doesn't mean everlasting, when used for punishment.

We may not fully understand God's righteous nature, but we're moving in that direction, being transformed into his image.

Eternal torment isn't the opposite of eternal life.