Eternal Torment vs Annihilation

[Slug1]

It's not a matter of what I want. It's a matter of wanting to know the heart of God. Destruction or to be destroyed may or may not refer to annihiltion, but the point I was making is that in 2Thes.2:8, antichrist is destroyed by the our Lords brightness, consumed by his word, so why cast him into the lake of fire, as in Rev.19? Unless Christs presence in glory is like a lake of fire.

Well, it seems you are applying the English definition to the term "destroyed" and not realizing the meaning of the intent of the Scripture. Here is why:

Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).

["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]

Copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

The "words/terms" that God inspired, do have meaning that can be much different then our English language. The term chosen as "destroy" is actually "will annul." Meaning is to render powerless, ineffective, etc.


So this is why, satan, the ac and the false prophet and all unbelievers are still existing after their judgement before Jesus and can then be tossed into the LoF. Ultimately rendering them all powerless and eternally separated from God and all those who remain with God.

[journeyman]

It's not a matter of what I want. It's a matter of wanting to know the heart of God. Destruction or to be destroyed may or may not refer to annihiltion, but the point I was making is that in 2Thes.2:8, antichrist is destroyed by the our Lords brightness, consumed by his word, so why cast him into the lake of fire, as in Rev.19? Unless Christs presence in glory is like a lake of fire.

Well, it seems you are applying the English definition to the term "destroyed" and not realizing the meaning of the intent of the Scripture. Here is why:

Strong's Concordance
katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

HELPS Word-studies
2673 katargéō (from 2596 /katá, "down to a point," intensifying 691 /argéō, "inactive, idle") – properly, idle down, rendering something inert ("completely inoperative"); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); "to make idle or inactive" (so also in Euripides, Phoen., 753, Abbott-Smith).

["2673 (katargéō) means 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,' according to TDNT (1.453)" (J. Rodman Williams, Renewal Theology "God, the World & Redemption," 389).]

Copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.

The "words/terms" that God inspired, do have meaning that can be much different then our English language. The term chosen as "destroy" is actually "will annul." Meaning is to render powerless, ineffective, etc.


So this is why, satan, the ac and the false prophet and all unbelievers are still existing after their judgement before Jesus and can then be tossed into the LoF. Ultimately rendering them all powerless and eternally separated from God and all those who remain with God.

I believe the presence of Christ is a destroying lake of fire to the wicked and there's no point to keep people of no use around for eternity, but there's also another word for "destroy",

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Lk.17:29

They were annihilated.

[Slug1]

I believe the presence of Christ is a destroying lake of fire to the wicked and there's no point to keep people of no use around for eternity, but there's also another word for "destroy",

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Lk.17:29

They were annihilated.

Physical life ended by physical fire even though the source was supernatural. All those guilty of sin in those cities, are not annihilated. S/G has never been support for annihilation theology. Here is why:

What does S/G represent? Well, scriptural emphasis is about the sexual immorality and what will happen to those who commit such sin. S/G are for us to understand how terrible hell will be, even though eternal separation from God will be much worse (the Gospels reveal how worse), we (presently) cannot fathom (except we can accept the Gospels), how worse because we are not in our resurrected forms yet and cannot comprehend the eternal. So we are given what we "can" comprehend.

Study Jude. Lays it out pretty good for study about "on-going" destruction. See how the verses SPECIFY how S/G are similar (an example of) to, not the same as the fires of eternal punishment (hell or LoF).

[DeWayne]

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

[journeyman]

Physical life ended by physical fire even though the source was supernatural. All those guilty of sin in those cities, are not annihilated. S/G has never been support for annihilation theology. Here is why:

What does S/G represent? Well, scriptural emphasis is about the sexual immorality and what will happen to those who commit such sin. S/G are for us to understand how terrible hell will be, even though eternal separation from God will be much worse (the Gospels reveal how worse), we (presently) cannot fathom (except we can accept the Gospels), how worse because we are not in our resurrected forms yet and cannot comprehend the eternal. So we are given what we "can" comprehend.

Study Jude. Lays it out pretty good for study about "on-going" destruction. See how the verses SPECIFY how S/G are similar (an example of) to, not the same as the fires of eternal punishment (hell or LoF).

Jude says those cities are an example of eternal fire. Those cities don't exist. That's all. It's the effect the fire had on those cities that's everlasting. The message is, they were annihilated, not they're on fire for thousands of years.

[Slug1]

Jude says those cities are an example of eternal fire. Those cities don't exist. That's all. It's the effect the fire had on those cities that's everlasting. The message is, they were annihilated, not they're on fire for thousands of years.

We have to understand (accept) that cities are material (physical) and the resurrected body that people will have when they stand before God, is not material (not physical). Also, we have to understand (accept) that physical fire does "consume" material of this physical world.


We also must understand (accept) that all references in Scripture about the "spiritual" fires of hell (as revealed), do not consume but torture forever!! Have you thought to yourself, "why don't they consume?"


Scripture also reveals that these fires "destroy" and what does the term inspired by the Holy Spirit reveal? Answer: to render powerless, to separate, etc.

Hell is a "spiritual" matter, not a physical matter. Thus WHY we find in Jude that S/G a revelation to help us comprehend how what is in hell/LoF will be completely powerless and completely separated from God. As the physical and sinful S/G was cut off from the physical world, so too will sinful man be forever cut off from God after judgement.

[journeyman]

We also must understand (accept) that all references in Scripture about the "spiritual" fires of hell (as revealed), do not consume but torture forever!! Have you thought to yourself, "why don't they consume?"

I've shown why the fire causes torment, but not without end.

Scripture also reveals that these fires "destroy" and what does the term inspired by the Holy Spirit reveal? Answer: to render powerless, to separate, etc.

Hell is a "spiritual" matter, not a physical matter. Thus WHY we find in Jude that S/G a revelation to help us comprehend how what is in hell/LoF will be completely powerless and completely separated from God. As the physical and sinful S/G was cut off from the physical world, so too will sinful man be forever cut off from God after judgement.

S&G don't exist anymore. At Christ's judgement seat, not only works are tested, but people themselves are judged.

Death and hell are "cast into the lof, meaning they don't exist anymore. Death and hell don't really need to be cast anywhere. They're abolished by our Lord. People believe death and hell go on eternally. They don't. Neither do the unsaved.

[Slug1]

We also must understand (accept) that all references in Scripture about the "spiritual" fires of hell (as revealed), do not consume but torture forever!! Have you thought to yourself, "why don't they consume?"

I've shown why the fire causes torment, but not without end.

Can you do me a favor and point me to the post. I have taken terms and in one particular provided the Greek defining of the term to reveal how there is no "destruction" per English defining. That the verse cannot mean, the torment ends.

[journeyman]

Can you do me a favor and point me to the post. I have taken terms and in one particular provided the Greek defining of the term to reveal how there is no "destruction" per English defining. That the verse cannot mean, the torment ends.

I've been showing it all through the thread. Slug, why are people going to be tormented in the presence of our Lord? Will they be tormented in his presence for eternity?
I understand theologians say the word "destroy" in the Bibpe can never mean annihilate, but,
 
the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth
Gen.6:7

Those people were annihilated. God can also annihilate spirits.

[Slug1]

Can you do me a favor and point me to the post. I have taken terms and in one particular provided the Greek defining of the term to reveal how there is no "destruction" per English defining. That the verse cannot mean, the torment ends.

I've been showing it all through the thread. Slug, why are people going to be tormented in the presence of our Lord? Will they be tormented in his presence for eternity?
I understand theologians say the word "destroy" in the Bibpe can never mean annihilate, but,
 
the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth
Gen.6:7

Those people were annihilated. God can also annihilate spirits.

You've expressed your interpretation of "English" words. Let's dive into Hebrew concerning "destroy" in v7:

Strong's Concordance
machah: abolish
Original Word: מָחָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: machah
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-khaw')
Definition: to wipe, wipe out
Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. מָחָה verb wipe, wipe out (Late Hebrew id.; Arabic , efface, erase, cancel, obliterate; Aramaic מְחָא (I), compare Phoenician למחת according to stroke = exactly HoffinPhoenician Inschr., Abh. GGW, xxxvi. May 1889, 9). —
Qal Perfect3masculine singular מָחָה Numbers 5:23 3t.; 3 feminine singular ˜מחֲתָה Proverbs 30:20 4t. Pf; Imperfect יִמְחֶה 2 Kings 21:13; וַיִּמַח (Baer; variant reading וַיִּמַּח) Genesis 7:23; 1singular suffix אֶמְחֶנּוּ Exodus 32:33; 4t. Imperfect; Imperative מְחֵה Psalm 51:3; Psalm 51:11; suffix מְחֵנִי Exodus 32:32; Infinitive absolute מָחֹה Exodus 17:14; construct לִמְחוֺת 2 Kings 14:27; Participle מֹחֶה Isaiah 43:25; feminine plural (לְ)מֹחוֺת Proverbs 31:3; (Ges Fl Nö De Str for ᵑ0 לַמְחוֺת); —

1 wipe, the mouth Proverbs 30:20; tears from (מעל) the face Isaiah 25:8; written curse, into the water (אלמֿים) for drinking Numbers 5:23 (P); Moses' name from the book (מספר) of God Exodus 32:32,33 (J); וּמָחִיתִי אֶתֿ יְרוּשָׁלִַם כַּאֲשֶׁר יִמְחֶה אֶתהַֿצַּלַּחַת מָחָה וְהָפַךְ עַלמָּֿנֶיהָ 2 Kings 21:13 and I will wipe Jerusalem as one wipeth a dish, — he doth wipe and turn it (but read probably מָחֹה וְהָפֹךְ) upside down.

2 blot out = obliterate from the memory, מִתַּחַת הַשָּׁמַיִם from under heaven e.g. the name Deuteronomy 9:14; Deuteronomy 29:19; 2 Kings 14:27; the remembrance Exodus 17:14 (twice in verse) (J), Deuteronomy 25:19; the name for ever Psalm 9:6; transgressions (פשׁע; no more remembered by God against sinner) Psalm 51:3; Isaiah 43:25; Isaiah 44:22; עָון Psalm 51:11.

3 blot out = exterminate, כלהֿיקוֺם all existing things Genesis 7:23 (J) and mankind, מֵעַל מְּנֵי הָאֲדָמָה Genesis 6:7; Genesis 7:4 (J); מֹחוֺת מְלָכִין Proverbs 31:3 (with the text-change, see above) = destroyers of kings (i.e. impure women), but expression strange and dubious.

Niph`al Perfect3masculine plural נִמְחוּ Ezekiel 6:6; Imperfect יִמָּחֶה Deuteronomy 25:6; Judges 21:17; יִמַּח Psalm 109:13; 3feminine singular תִּמָּ֑ח Psalm 109:14; 4t. Imperfect; —

1 be wiped out מִסֵּפֶר חַיִּים Psalm 69:29.

2 be blotted out, מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל of a name Deuteronomy 25:6, a tribe Judges 21:17; name ("" posterity) Psalm 109:13; from memory, of sins Nehemiah 3:37; Psalm 109:14; reproach, Proverbs 6:33.

3 be exterminated, מִןהָֿאָרֶץ Genesis 7:23 (J); of idolatrous works of Israel Ezekiel 6:6.

Hiph`il Imperfect2masculine singular תֶּ֫מַח Nehemiah 13:14; תֶּ֑מְחִי Jeremiah 18:23 (but tone suggests תֶּ֫מַח compare Ges§ 75. R. 17; Gie reads Qal and doubts Hiph`il altogether); Infinitive לַמְחוֺת Proverbs 31:3 ( = לְהַמְחוֺת but see Qal 3); — blot out, from the memory; pious acts Nehemiah 13:14; sins Jeremiah 18:23.

II. מָחָה verb strike (Aramaic מְחָא (II), ; according to L GeiUrspr. d. spr. 416 LagSemitic i. 26, BN 142 NöZMG xxxii, 1878, 409 weakend from  = , Hebrew מָחַץ q. v. compare Dr§ 178 n.; Assyrian ma—û = crush, oppress, according to DlHWB 396); — Perfect3masculine singular consecutive, וּמָחָה ׳עַלכֶּֿתֶף וגו Numbers 34:11 (P) and the border shall strike upon (reach unto) the shoulder of the sea of Chinnereth ( > Di and others derive from I. מָחָה rub along by, brush past, skirt).

III. מָחָה verb denominative only

Pu`al Participle מְמֻחָיִם (Ges§ 75. R.13) in phrase ׳שְׁמָנִים מ Isaiah 25:6 fat pieces full of marrow.

מְחִי see II. מחה.

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database.
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc.
All rights reserved. Used by permission. BibleSoft.com

One step at a time, ok?



Step 1: Let's first establish "context." Is Moses writing about annihilation of mankind, or is he revealing that God will kill all of mankind and animal life with mankind? Once the context is established, then we can go into the use of the term "destroy."


Gen 6:7 is about blotting out, see bold part in quoted definition of the term above.


Step 2: This means "from" what or who? The answer is, from the earth (v7) and from God's memory. In simple terms, it means that God is removing evil from the face of the earth and then, He does not have to grieve over it, anymore. With the new earth He will not even remember the past evil.


How can one "leap" to a step that is about annihilation? I can't even find any (reputable) Commentary that dares to utilize this verse for annihilation.

[journeyman]

One step at a time, ok?

Step 1: Let's first establish "context." Is Moses writing about eternal separation from God, or is he revealing that God will kill all of mankind and animal life with mankind? Once the context is established, then we can go into the use of the term "destroy."

Gen 6:7 is about blotting out, see bold part in quoted definition of the term above.

Step 2: This means "from" what or who? The answer is, from the earth (v7) and from God's memory. In simple terms, it means that God is removing evil from the face of the earth and then, He does not have to grieve over it, anymore. With the new earth He will not even remember the past evil.

How can one "leap" to a step that is about annihilation? I can't even find any (reputable) Commentary that dares to utilize this verse for annihilation.

Slug, I've read your whole post. I don't need to "leap" to a step that is about annihilation, because the example itself is annihilation. In this current creation, God teaches us about the new creation. He obliterated the unrepentant.

Does it really make sense to you that the unrepentant will be tormented in the presence of our Lord, the holy angels and no dout the redeemed for eternity?

Forget about commentary. Forget about my view. Listen to the Spirit of Christ in you.

[Slug1]

He obliterated the unrepentant.

Does it really make sense to you that the unrepentant will be tormented in the presence of our Lord, the holy angels and no dout the redeemed for eternity?

I cannot find any scripture that teaches obliteration in an annihilation meaning.


Your second part is confusing because I've never raised torment in the presence of the Lord, all the verses I've posted represents separation from the Lord and the torment experienced is in the location where separated.


BTW, your response verifies you are ignoring the meaning of v7 that you raised.

[Athanasius]

Does it really make sense to you that the unrepentant will be tormented in the presence of our Lord, the holy angels and no dout the redeemed for eternity?

Forget about commentary. Forget about my view. Listen to the Spirit of Christ in you.

It doesn't seem to me that any human is immortal unless made immortal by God (clearly we weren't created immortal), but why wouldn't this make sense? In what sense would the unrepentant be in the presence of, say, 'the redeemed', given the two wouldn't be in proximity (the redeemed being located on the new earth and the unrepentant located...)? Unless you think they would be? If so, where and how?

Mind you, the implication that Slug1 - or anyone else, for that matter - isn't listening to the 'Spirit of Christ in [them]', and should perhaps forget about commentary (which by further implication is also contrary to the 'Spirit of Christ'?), is asinine.

[Slug1]

Mind you, the implication that Slug1 - or anyone else, for that matter - isn't listening to the 'Spirit of Christ in [them]', and should perhaps forget about commentary (which by further implication is also contrary to the 'Spirit of Christ'?), is asinine.

Thus why I didn't address/respond to an emotional statement that is all about accusation.

[journeyman]

I cannot find any scripture that teaches obliteration in an annihilation meaning.

People in the flood were annihilated.

Your second part is confusing because I've never raised torment in the presence of the Lord, all the verses I've posted represents separation from the Lord and the torment experienced is in the location where separated.

I know you didn't raise the point of the unsaved being tormented in Christ's presemce. I did. The location of torment is the presence of Christ and the unsaved won't exist there for eternity.

BTW, your response verifies you are ignoring the meaning of v7 that you raised.

The meaning of vs.7 is that the unrepentant were annihilated. Anyone reading the story about the flood should have no trouble understanding that.