Church Abuse/ Rebuke

[Kfawn]

Hello, I have been struggling with the senior pastors. I am the wife of the associate pastor. They have ideas that I should be doing almost everything with my husband- going to every meeting that he goes to and the women's meetings.
Since I was homeschooling I ended up burning out. I go to the three services a week but have dropped every other church thing. I used to help with Sunday school but now I just decorate the church and pray with people and help my husband counsel people. I do meet with people and pray/ visit with them sometimes.
Anyway, I brought up an issue with the youth pastor and then on Wednesday it seemed to me our senior pastor was rebuking me from the pulpit for it( though of course he didn't mention names)- so I thought because it seems to me like this happed with other people.
I was speaking with a counselor and she encouraged me to just ask him- were you addressing me. And so that's what I did because I was feeling hurt about it.
I am glad to say that he wasn't targeting me when he said all the stuff he said.
Anyway, during that conversation, they told me how upset they were, well I got mixed messages from them. At one point he said it's okay that I don't do all the things they expect and then on the other hand they were criticizing me.
But this is the thing that bothered me. They asked why I leave when pastor talks, and I leave because he comes across as abusive to me, that's not saying he is, but because I am dealing with hurts from the past but I guess sometimes he comes across to me as mocking. It's hard to explain, but I was trying to be honest.
And then his wife said to me your a pastor's wife you should be better sometimes I just think you need a real good spanking. You need to be spanked.
I am just tired of being talked to like this. I think I forgive them. I don't know how to have a relationship with these people.
But anyway, is this a weird way to talk to someone? Or is it normal. Cause it doesn't feel like it should be normal.

[RabbiKnife]

I don’t know where you are from or what your culture is, but

This behavior from the leadership is not normal
It is not Christlike
It is not acceptable

And Jesus does not approve

[tango]

Spanked? Seriously?

If someone said that to my wife they really wouldn't like my response to it.

[Kfawn]

I am Canadian, but this is a native church.
My husband doesn't know how they talked to me cause he wasn't there. I am not sure they would have talked to me like that if he was.
They really only talk to me when I approach them about concerns. They kind of get defensive and then be like ,well you have these problems. Almost like, don't talk about my problems when you have these. But their problems with me mostly have to do with the expectations they have.
I have never confronted people before this really. Like I know they come from abusive backgrounds ect. But I felt like it was wrong for her to say that to me.
I feel like if I try address this, it will also turn into another hurtful thing.

[tango]

If church leadership is abusive (if leadership of anything is abusive) they will turn problems you raise into your problems. It means you're more likely to shut up and go away and it's less likely they have to actually do anything.

Patterns like that don't necessarily mean leadership is abusive (in your case it sounds like they are, I'm talking more general observations as above), it can mean leadership is either inept or in over their heads. If you can't address a situation you can hide from it, ignore it, hope it goes away. Sometimes you can even get people to continue to serve while you ignore their concerns, if you make the right noises about listening and wanting to take some time to consider what they said.

If leadership is treating you badly there comes a point where your best option is to just walk away and find another church.

[Kfawn]

Thank you for your help, sometimes I feel like am I overthinking this and I don't really know who to talk to.
Anyway, this helped to know that it's not okay to talk to people like this.

[Athanasius]

I am just tired of being talked to like this. I think I forgive them. I don't know how to have a relationship with these people.

Here's the "cynical", I come from a background of church abuse, including ministerial abuse, misconduct, etc., view:

You can't. Simple as that. You resent them, and you're going to soon start resenting your husband if you don't already--"Well if you were there with me, she wouldn't have said that!" Knowing this raises an unfortunate related concern: what are they saying when you aren't there?

Cultural differences don't excuse ministerial misconduct. If this were any job that woman would be sitting in HR. Of course, ministry isn't any other job, and it's a place where the wives of pastors are expected to put up with endless abuse in service to the kingdom.

It's a little 'k' because it's not Christ's kingdom they're serving. It's the designs of abusive men in senior positions who pass off culture as ministry. Do you want to know how many pastoral couples I know that have divorced, or had cheating scandals, or who are so traumatised the only thing keeping them together is "God's calling" and endless church services?

If you're not already in therapy, seriously consider it. Importantly, talk about this with your husband, and if you feel you can't, go to couples therapy. They hired him, not you.

Thank you for your help, sometimes I feel like am I overthinking this and I don't really know who to talk to.
Anyway, this helped to know that it's not okay to talk to people like this.

Honestly, the behaviour is not going to change. That you're even at this point, where you're asking strangers on the internet and with no support around you (husband?), is this harsh reality: it's time to move on to a church that isn't going to abuse you and cause you to despise your husband and Christ.

If your husband doesn't see a problem with how you're being treated--remember what I said about therapy? Men and women aren't holy just because they're called pastor.

[IMINXTC]

Second that (e)motion.

[Kfawn]

Yes, I am struggling with resentment towards them and my husband. Or I am not sure if is distrust that I am struggling with cause of an unresolved issues and an inability to have freedom to talk of issues.I am trying to lay bitterness and resentment down. This weekend our church had a conference and I had to leave sometimes to think and pray. And I got peace about just being still. Be still and wait on God and pray. As for my husband I was thinking of this verse
1Pe 3:1  Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives
I am trying to get a Christian counsellor who will pray. I was previously going to counseling -  and her advice was leave the church but I just don't feel like I can because, honestly, it seems like I am the only one who has a real problem..like people recognize that there's stuff wrong but they see it as there is no perfect church. My counselor was a Christian but not necessarily a Christian counsellor (she did talkabout God and the Bible- but she didn't pray but I also didn't ask her to pray cause I was afraid to) but  I do want to include God by praying.
There is also a church who has a 9 a.m. service on Sundays and I was thinking of going there so I could maybe have a pastor who will care and see if I could hear a different message than what I am usually hearing.
I am afraid of what people will think, andWonder if the other church would be okay with it and also if it would cause drama with my church cause if they'd find out they'd be questioning why is she going over there?
Also, this weekend someone lost a couple hundred dollars it was brought to us and they announced it so it could be returned but when it wasn't claimed right away the pastor said publicly that he would put it in the offering if it went unclaimed.
The couple who found the money and I also was not comfortable with having that money put in the offering. We thought it should be brought to the police.( We were going to talk to the pastor if it went unclaimed).
Turns out the money was claimed and the person who claimed it knew the exact amount and bills it was, and he ended up donating it anyway. So it worked out, but I have a problem that it was even suggested that it would be put in the offering.
Am I making a big deal of this? Like it very concerns me. I guess, how it makes me feel is like untrustworthy.and maybe lacking integrity cause if we had found that amount we should return it to the police.
Anyway, I apologize this is dragging on. After saying all this, I think I do need help to process and deal with this. I don't know what a big deal is, or if I just think it's a big deal when it isn't.😥.
Thank you for listening and also, it was hard to hear that I am resentful cause I am trying hard not to be. I really want to forgive cause forgiveness is vital.
Vengeance belongs to God and He can do a better job at fixing people up than I can❤️
Also, I want to add, thank you for pointing out the weaknesses, that I do need to be careful to not be resentful and also, I am weak and must be careful about relationships.

[ProDeo]

Yes, I am struggling with resentment towards them and my husband. Or I am not sure if is distrust that I am struggling with cause of an unresolved issues and an inability to have freedom to talk of issues.I am trying to lay bitterness and resentment down.

Hi, I am going to repeat what Athanasius said to you -

Honestly, the behaviour is not going to change. That you're even at this point, where you're asking strangers on the internet and with no support around you (husband?), is this harsh reality: it's time to move on to a church that isn't going to abuse you and cause you to despise your husband and Christ.

Release yourself from the pain.

Find yourself a new (normal) Church, in time your husband might follow you.

[tango]

There seems to be a lot going on here. My experiences aren't like yours in that they are far less serious but some fall along broadly similar lines so maybe you can gain something from them.

Yes, I am struggling with resentment towards them and my husband. Or I am not sure if is distrust that I am struggling with cause of an unresolved issues and an inability to have freedom to talk of issues.I am trying to lay bitterness and resentment down. This weekend our church had a conference and I had to leave sometimes to think and pray. And I got peace about just being still. Be still and wait on God and pray.

I truly believe that church can become an idol. It's a very insidious idol because, let's face it, who would have thought the devil would lead us astray by being ever-more active in God's work? But when "doing stuff" becomes the primary focus it subtly takes our eyes away from God, tires us out, wears us down, until finally we burn out and decide we don't want to be a part of the church any more. And because God and the church as so closely associated (not unreasonably) we associate "I need a break from church" with "I need a break from God" and that won't end well.

As for my husband I was thinking of this verse
1Pe 3:1  Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives

I think this verse needs to be considered in the sense of what it's trying to achieve. Something I've been thinking about a lot lately is what church is meant to be about - it's come about as a result of stepping back from my church over a few related issues. I forget the reference offhand but it says we should always have an answer ready for the hope that is within us. We don't need an answer unless people are asking questions, which leads to a very simple question - does the world look at us and figure we have something they want? If not, we're doing something wrong. If the world looks at the church and sees a place overflowing with love and acceptance, if the world looks at the church members and sees people overflowing with love, joy, peace etc, it's attractive. If the world looks at the church and sees a place overflowing with politics, backbiting and people overworked and burned out, staying on because of yet another guilt trip, why would they want any part of it?

I am trying to get a Christian counsellor who will pray. I was previously going to counseling -  and her advice was leave the church but I just don't feel like I can because, honestly, it seems like I am the only one who has a real problem..like people recognize that there's stuff wrong but they see it as there is no perfect church.

There is no perfect church but that doesn't excuse churches not even trying to get it right. A problem I've had in church is that I come from a very different background to most people and I've heard a few people comment that in this area there's the standard way of doing things. If you kick the apple cart it turns into a you problem - people like things the way they have always been. Sometimes suggestions get disregarded, other times they are nominally heard and ignored. Whether it's a me problem or a church problem soon becomes irrelevant - if the options are to just sit in the pews and keep my mouth shut or be ignored I'll figure I'm not welcome and either leave or disengage.

There is also a church who has a 9 a.m. service on Sundays and I was thinking of going there so I could maybe have a pastor who will care and see if I could hear a different message than what I am usually hearing.

Why not give it a try?

I am afraid of what people will think, andWonder if the other church would be okay with it and also if it would cause drama with my church cause if they'd find out they'd be questioning why is she going over there?

Fear of what people will think is a powerful tool to keep people in line. If you're concerned it will rock the boat too much (you might ask yourself why that is, if you're not allowed to hear another message that's usually a serious red flag) maybe ask the other church if they record their sermons so you can listen to it during the week?

Also, this weekend someone lost a couple hundred dollars it was brought to us and they announced it so it could be returned but when it wasn't claimed right away the pastor said publicly that he would put it in the offering if it went unclaimed. The couple who found the money and I also was not comfortable with having that money put in the offering. We thought it should be brought to the police.( We were going to talk to the pastor if it went unclaimed). Turns out the money was claimed and the person who claimed it knew the exact amount and bills it was, and he ended up donating it anyway. So it worked out, but I have a problem that it was even suggested that it would be put in the offering. Am I making a big deal of this? Like it very concerns me. I guess, how it makes me feel is like untrustworthy.and maybe lacking integrity cause if we had found that amount we should return it to the police.

A lot of the time arguments like "it all worked out the same" are used to justify something being OK when it's anything but. The owner of the money has the absolute right to donate all, some, or none of it. The finder of the money has precisely zero rights to make decisions about it. Personally I don't know I'd fuss about turning a couple of hundred dollars in to the police but I'd be worried about the pastor announcing it would be put in the collection if not claimed right away. This is the sort of thing that sits on a kinda-sorta-sliding scale of what best to do. Nobody would seriously say that the quarter you found in the parking lot should be turned in to the police - you'd either put it in your pocket or in the collection (for a specific example, a few years ago my church was collecting coins for a mission and the first donation was 43 cents I found on the floor in the hall). Likewise if you found thousands of dollars in cash few people would suggest you just put it in the offering and keep quiet. In the middle is a range of situations where you end up making a judgment call - what do you do if you find a dollar? Five dollars? Ten dollars? Fifty dollars? Fifty thousand dollars? Each person will have their own concept of when it's acceptable to just put it in your pocket and when you need to escalate it. What's concerning here is the pastor being so public about keeping it unless someone comes forward right now to claim it.

Thank you for listening and also, it was hard to hear that I am resentful cause I am trying hard not to be. I really want to forgive cause forgiveness is vital.

Forgiveness is vital but that doesn't mean letting people keep abusing you is vital. You can forgive without giving permission for bad behavior to continue.

[Athanasius]

Yes, I am struggling with resentment towards them and my husband. Or I am not sure if is distrust that I am struggling with cause of an unresolved issues and an inability to have freedom to talk of issues.I am trying to lay bitterness and resentment down. This weekend our church had a conference and I had to leave sometimes to think and pray. And I got peace about just being still. Be still and wait on God and pray. As for my husband I was thinking of this verse
1Pe 3:1  Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives

You're thinking about that verse, and your husband is an associate pastor? Ouch.

You can't just "lay... down" bitterness and resentment, and distrust, and whatever else. You're likely struggling with resentment, distrust, misogynistic attitudes, and the feelings of having your agency denied, of being infantilised and devalued that comes with it. Those things will fester until they're properly dealt with, and resolved. That means that unless your circumstances change, you'll need to change circumstances. You don't want to find out what the alternative is.

I am trying to get a Christian counsellor who will pray. I was previously going to counseling -  and her advice was leave the church but I just don't feel like I can because, honestly, it seems like I am the only one who has a real problem..like people recognize that there's stuff wrong but they see it as there is no perfect church. My counselor was a Christian but not necessarily a Christian counsellor (she did talkabout God and the Bible- but she didn't pray but I also didn't ask her to pray cause I was afraid to) but  I do want to include God by praying.

A good counsellor, Christian or not, is not going to tell you to leave the church or stay in it. Counsellors aren't in the business of telling you what you should do. What you "should do" depends on the problems you want to solve. It doesn't matter if it feels to you like you're the only one with a real problem--it's a real problem for you, and you matter.

Remember that you've reached out to a random forum to ask these questions of strangers. I agree with that counsellor (is there a difference between a "Christian counsellor" and a "counsellor who is a Christian"?) that you're describing a circumstance that anyone else would remove themselves from. That this is happening in a church does not change that, or make what's happening better. Why blame yourself?

There is also a church who has a 9 a.m. service on Sundays and I was thinking of going there so I could maybe have a pastor who will care and see if I could hear a different message than what I am usually hearing.

So you go to a different church one Sunday, why not? I'm not sure what you mean by a "pastor who will care", but that sounds like the domain of a therapist.

I am afraid of what people will think, andWonder if the other church would be okay with it and also if it would cause drama with my church cause if they'd find out they'd be questioning why is she going over there?

Who cares what they think? Gossiping is a sin, isn't it? Is God confined to this building but not that one? Of course not. You don't owe them answers. You could be there for any number of reasons, and if you're in an environment where this kind of gossiping and behind-the-back talking is going on, well, you already know what I'd say.

Also, this weekend someone lost a couple hundred dollars it was brought to us and they announced it so it could be returned but when it wasn't claimed right away the pastor said publicly that he would put it in the offering if it went unclaimed.

The couple who found the money and I also was not comfortable with having that money put in the offering. We thought it should be brought to the police.( We were going to talk to the pastor if it went unclaimed).

Turns out the money was claimed and the person who claimed it knew the exact amount and bills it was, and he ended up donating it anyway. So it worked out, but I have a problem that it was even suggested that it would be put in the offering.

If you discovered the person who claimed the money was guilt-tripped into donating it to the church who said they were going to keep it anyway, would you still think it "worked out"? "Finders keepers" for a non-trivial sum like this means doing the moral thing, which would have been to bring it to the police, and certainly, "finders keepers" isn't exactly biblical doctrine.

Do you think that young couple would do the same in the future? Would they blame themselves for what the pastor did, pray about it, find a bible verse, then hand in a few more hundred dollars found... or do you think they'll bring it to the police in the future, having been soured by the experience?

Am I making a big deal of this? Like it very concerns me. I guess, how it makes me feel is like untrustworthy.and maybe lacking integrity cause if we had found that amount we should return it to the police.

As you've told us, no, you're not.

Anyway, I apologize this is dragging on. After saying all this, I think I do need help to process and deal with this. I don't know what a big deal is, or if I just think it's a big deal when it isn't.😥.

You're dealing with difficulties that will destroy your marriage.

Whether that's a big deal to you is up to you.

Thank you for listening and also, it was hard to hear that I am resentful cause I am trying hard not to be. I really want to forgive cause forgiveness is vital.

You can't forgive other people for making you resentful. You can't repent of feeling resentful because of what others have done. This is a serious issue that needs serious help, both you and your husband.

Vengeance belongs to God and He can do a better job at fixing people up than I can❤️

This isn't at all about vengeance.

Also, I want to add, thank you for pointing out the weaknesses, that I do need to be careful to not be resentful and also, I am weak and must be careful about relationships.

Feeling resentment isn't a weakness. In your case, it sounds like a strength. It doesn't come from a healthy place, but because your circumstance isn't healthy.

Stop blaming yourself. If you think you have some blame, then sure, whatever, I don't know what all is going on. Everyone else involved is going to hold some blame too.

[tango]

Another point I meant to make about the "it turned out the same" relates to the procedure rather than the outcome.

At my (most likely former) church leaders serve a two-year term and may serve a second term. One of our leaders recently reached the end of their term and it was minuted that they "had decided to serve another term".

My view was that they shouldn't get to decide that without putting it to the congregation. My reasoning is twofold - firstly if the congregation thinks they have not been good in the role the congregation must have the ability to deny them an extra term, and secondly if the congregation thinks they have done a good job they deserve the knowledge that the congregation continues to affirm them in their role. (My personal view was that this particular person had done a brilliant job, and I would have had no hesitation at all in voting for giving them another term).

It's easy to look at the outcome, or even the desired outcome, and ask what difference it makes. Why would I object to someone unilaterally deciding to serve another term when I'd vote for them to serve another term anyway? Is it just posturing? It's not just posturing, it's about who makes the decision, it's about the process. How do we get from A to B? In some situations it really doesn't matter as long as we get to B one way or another. In other situations the process is critical - however willing I might be to vote for someone continuing in their role there might be a substantial number of others who would be keen to see someone else serving. Even if the nominal outcome is the same - the person continues in their role - a congregational vote lets them know they still enjoy a high level of support.

"The outcome is the same, therefore your argument is worthless" is itself a useless argument.