Two things died today, 2/24/22

[Aijalon]

1) The UN. I mean it was always a joke but today showed that it's completely meaningless.

2) The myth of "soft power". Military power comes from the barrel of a gun and that's it.

Three weeks in.... "soft power" is still nudging.   In other words, bankrupting Russia and waging a cyber war is very much in the cards.    Soft power has an influence.  I'm obviously not advocating for pacifism or "neutrality" in matters of security.   Military power is the more effective means of persuasion.   The soft power of the west has a lot of real power to unleash as well.  Russia has accomplished nothing but foolish carnage in this so far, and they will pay the price.   Before the end of this, the soft-powers-that-be will have enabled Ukraine to not only survive, but launch counter offensives into Russia, at which point they will come to the negotiating table more earnestly.

[Fenris]

Three weeks in.... "soft power" is still nudging. 

It is. But we're also sending lethal aid and the Ukrainians are fighting hard. Had they capitulated what would have happened?

[RandyPNW]

Three weeks in.... "soft power" is still nudging. 

It is. But we're also sending lethal aid and the Ukrainians are fighting hard. Had they capitulated what would have happened?

This is really coming home for me today. I just talked to a contractor working on a project for us, and he sounded Russian. So I asked him, and he said, "No!" I'm from Ukraine.

Actually, his English was pretty poor, but a brave guy, and talented. He said he came over some time back, but just got his wife and 2 kids over here a couple of months ago.

When you see real people with real families, who are talented, pleasant, and are fair with their costs, you got to know that something has to be done to protect their people from tyrants. I don't think there's anything "soft" about it. But neither is my voice loud enough to get Biden's attention. 

Maybe they are talking "soft," but really, doing bigger things beneath the surface? Why would they want to telegraph what they're doing? Something seems to be working!

[Athanasius]

Lucky he just said "No!" I've seen Ukrainians go on extended "I'm not Russian how dare you!" treatises to some poor unsuspecting soul who would have just as easily confused a Canadian for an American.

Also re: Aijalon, there is no possible world in which Ukraine counter-invades Russia. All that does is immediately legitimate Putin's paranoia.

[IMINXTC]

Never imagined - who could have? - the ineptness of this Russian leader.

Something is certainly amiss with him - praying they get him out of there

Thinking of friends in Russia and the besieged Ukrainians.

[hisleast]

Lots of familiar names in this thread.

[ProDeo]

Lots of familiar names in this thread.

Your name rings a bell as well 

Welcome.

[RabbiKnife]

Lots of familiar names in this thread.

Well if it ain't my old friend from the People's Republik of Chicagistan!

[Fenris]

Lots of familiar names in this thread.

The gang's all here now.

[hisleast]

Lots of familiar names in this thread.

The gang's all here now.

Seeing all these familiar names brings a deep sense of loss.   How many good folks were booted unceremoniously.  I know at least 2 that have passed away since then.

[RandyPNW]

Lucky he just said "No!" I've seen Ukrainians go on extended "I'm not Russian how dare you!" treatises to some poor unsuspecting soul who would have just as easily confused a Canadian for an American.

Also re: Aijalon, there is no possible world in which Ukraine counter-invades Russia. All that does is immediately legitimate Putin's paranoia.

True Story. I met Andrew's (the Ukrainian) friend and partner yesterday. I think his name was Will--strong accent.

I asked Will if he was Ukrainian too. He said, No, I'm Russian. Apparently he and Andrew get along very well!

The news I'm hearing today is that Putin may be softening, due to excessive losses, and may be pursuing on "off ramp." The best bet, to me, is allowing contested territories run referendums for their future, who they're going to belong to--Russia or Ukraine? And then, deal with the NATO thing in a way that's satisfactory for everybody.

[Fenris]

The best bet, to me, is allowing contested territories run referendums for their future, who they're going to belong to--Russia or Ukraine?

Oh, you must be joking. Contested territories occupied by Russian solders are going to vote 100% in favor of joining Russia. Or they know what will happen.

By way of historical example, after Germany occupied Austria in 1938, they held a referendum about Austria becoming part of Germany. The votes were 99.73% in favor. Because of course they were.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You really should read up on these matters, and (from other topics) the history of the Inquisition and Jewish life in Christian Europe. And check out the origins of Western Civ while you're at it.

[RandyPNW]

The best bet, to me, is allowing contested territories run referendums for their future, who they're going to belong to--Russia or Ukraine?

Oh, you must be joking. Contested territories occupied by Russian solders are going to vote 100% in favor of joining Russia. Or they know what will happen.

By way of historical example, after Germany occupied Austria in 1938, they held a referendum about Austria becoming part of Germany. The votes were 99.73% in favor. Because of course they were.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You really should read up on these matters, and (from other topics) the history of the Inquisition and Jewish life in Christian Europe. And check out the origins of Western Civ while you're at it.

I've read the histories of all these. The Germanic Peoples of Europe include Germany, Austria, the UK, the Scandinavian countries, etc. I know--I'm half Scandinavian, half-German, and am married to an English woman. But one pair of my grandparents came from Ukraine.

Interestingly, my uncle, who was also from there, apparently, spoke Yiddish. My cousin said she was told we had Jewish in us. I just think he had a lot of Jewish friends. Who knows? Who cares?

As far as thinking things can't work out with Russia, I think that's a bit on the negative side. There has to be a resolution proposed that does not include WW3, if possible. A referendum is a good idea, I should think. If the world is included as "watchers" in the voting process, perhaps we can get honest results?

[Athanasius]

A referendum is a good idea, I should think. If the world is included as "watchers" in the voting process, perhaps we can get honest results?

The are some problems with this: (1) there are plenty of people in Russia who genuinely support Putin, (2) people who vote for the opposition will become political enemies of the state, and (3) should Putin win, is it worth voting against him just to have your name marked down somewhere? It's not. This is a guy who had Abrahamovich and a couple of Ukrainians poisoned during negotiations.

There will never be legitimate elections under the current regime, whether in the form of Putin or whatever politically ambitious KGB/FSB agent comes after.

[Fenris]

As far as thinking things can't work out with Russia, I think that's a bit on the negative side. There has to be a resolution proposed that does not include WW3, if possible. A referendum is a good idea, I should think.

I just explained why it's a bad idea, and you haven't addressed it at all. A people under military occupation by a dictator are not going to vote freely and it doesn't matter who's watching. The Anschluss, remember?