all righteousness is from Christ

[Fenris]

Why isn't it a theological statement.  It concerns ones relationship to God?

The chapter isn't about man's relationship with God. The chapter is about the generation witnessing the destruction. Of course they felt like that were dirty and sinful. Those people. That generation. Not you and me.

And, (Is. 64:6) fits very with 'all', be it all of mankind or all of Israel.  For, Isaiah at the beginning is addressing Judah and Jerusalem, (Is. 1:1) and Identifies it with Sodom and Gomorrah.  (Is. 1:9-10)  He is not just addressing those who are outwardly sinful.  He is addressing those that are doing all the religious things that make them appear to be good.  (Is. 1:10-17)  All are guilty.

The book isn't addressed to all mankind who ever lived. It's primarily addressed to that generation, warning them to repent or face consequences.

Just like (Is. 64:6) says.   "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" 

Same thing. One generation.

(Is. 60:21) speaks to all of Israel in the Messianic era.  And all of Israel will be righteous.

Maybe it means all of humanity that ever lived . I mean, why not?

Quantrill

Fenris the wonderdog.

[Quantrill]

@Fenris

If judgement from God is not about 'relationship' with God, what is?  It is very much theology.  It has to do with God and man.

No, Isaiah didn't say they 'felt like they were dirty and sinful'.  He said 'we are dirty and sinful'.  (Is. 64:6)  Isaiah, a prophet of God said 'we'.  Including himself.

You contradict yourself.  You say at times, concerning (Is. 60) that it deals with the future Messianic era.  You say at times that (Isaiah) deals with 70 A.D.  And now you say, (Isaiah) deals primarily with that generation.  As Isaiah said, Judah and Jerusalem is a cesspool.  Sodom and Gomorrah.  And the yet future temple is destroyed.  (Is. 64:11)  In other words, not just that generation. 

No, not one generation, as I have just showed. 

Concerning (Is. 60:21), no it doesn't mean all humanity.  "Thy people"   Go back and re-read (Is. 60).  Or, just read it.

And, of course you neglect my question.  If (Is. 64:6) doesn't refer to all, then who are those it doesn't refer to?  You? 

Quantrill

[Fenris]

If judgement from God is not about 'relationship' with God, what is?  It is very much theology.  It has to do with God and man.

No, Isaiah didn't say they 'felt like they were dirty and sinful'.  He said 'we are dirty and sinful'.  (Is. 64:6)  Isaiah, a prophet of God said 'we'.  Including himself.

Context. It's the lamentation of the generation that witnesses the destruction.  C'mon, man.

You contradict yourself.  You say at times, concerning (Is. 60) that it deals with the future Messianic era.

Now I know you're being disingenuous.

YES. There are chapters in Isaiah that deal with his generation. THERE ARE ALSO chapters in Isaiah that deal with future generations. Chapter 60 is a vision of the future. Very good. YES. Chapter 64 is a lamentation over the destruction. Very good. A book can talk about more than one thing.

You say at times that (Isaiah) deals with 70 A.D.

I never said this and I don't think that is so. The destruction Isaiah talks about is 586BCE.

Concerning (Is. 60:21), no it doesn't mean all humanity.  "Thy people"   Go back and re-read (Is. 60).  Or, just read it.

Oh that's funny.

And, of course you neglect my question.  If (Is. 64:6) doesn't refer to all, then who are those it doesn't refer to?  You? 

I wonder if the chapter gives us any clues as to who is speaking? Let's look:

Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
    even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
 Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
    has been burned with fire,

Wow. Who would be saying this? Who would be talking about Zion and Jerusalem being destroyed? The place where their ancestors prayed? I can't figure it out. No clue whatsoever.

Quantrill

Fenris, the monstrous wolf, the offspring of Loki.

[Quantrill]

@Fenris

Context reveals it is about the judgment of God upon man.  Which means it is a theological statement.  Again, (Is. 64:6) says 'we are all'

Well, a chapter in the Bible can also speak to various times.  (Is. 64:2-3) speaks to when God came to Israel at Sinai.  (Is. 64:4) speaks to time from the beginning of the world to Sinai.   Isaiah says 'we' so he is speaking of his day which saw the northern tribes taken away in 721 B.C.  And in (Is. 64:9-11) he speaks to a future day when the temple is burned.

Whether 586 B.C. or 70 A.D., it is yet a future day to Isaiah, who includes himself when he says 'we'.

What's so funny?   (Is. 60:21) says 'Thy people'.   So all Israel shall be righteous in that day. 

You say (Is. 64:6) isn't addressing all.  It is only addressing those in 586 who experienced the Babylonian destruction.  My question is, who is it not addressing?  In other words, who will stand before God in their own righteousness?  Isaiah refused to stand in his.

Quantrill

[Fenris]

Context reveals it is about the judgment of God upon man.

Context reveals that it is about a specific people mourning a specific event.

Again, (Is. 64:6) says 'we are all'

"We" being those Jews alive at the time and witnessed the destruction.

Well, a chapter in the Bible can also speak to various times. 

Amazing. So it follows that different chapters can also talk about different times. I think we're having a breakthrough here!

Whether 586 B.C. or 70 A.D., it is yet a future day to Isaiah, who includes himself when he says 'we'.

The "we" is that generation. He wasn't part of that generation.

What's so funny?   

You said "re read it" or maybe just "read it". As if I haven't read it before.

You say (Is. 64:6) isn't addressing all.  It is only addressing those in 586 who experienced the Babylonian destruction.

It's not addressing them, they are the ones who are speaking.

My question is, who is it not addressing?  In other words, who will stand before God in their own righteousness?  Isaiah refused to stand in his.

It's not about standing before God in judgement. It's about how they feel when they see the Temple destroyed.

Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
    even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
 Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
    has been burned with fire,
    and all that we treasured lies in ruins.

[Quantrill]

@Fenris

Context reveals it is addressing a specific people under the judgement of God.  How is that not a theological statement.  And Isaiah identifies with the people under this  judgement.  (Is. 64:6) "But we are all".

No.  Isaiah is the writer.  He uses the term 'we' because he identifies himself as under that judgement.  The generation of (586 B.C.) or (70 A.D.) are not writing this prophecy. 

Perhaps a 'breakthrough'?  We will see.  I have my doubts.

That Isaiah wasn't part of that generation is the whole point.  He identifies with that generation under judgement.  Again, he is the writer.

Well, apparently you haven't read it.  Read the whole chapter.  (Is. 60)  You will see it is about 'all of Israel'.  (Is. 60:21)  Which is what you denied.  Just like 'all of thy people' will be righteous, so 'all our righteousness is as filthy rags'. 

No, Isaiah is speaking.  And what he says is true of that generation, but is true of him and his generation also. 'we'   Just like he identifes completely with those Jews at the foot of Sinai when God came down.  (Is. 64:3)

Of course it is about standing before God in judgement.  (Is. 64:5) "thou art wroth; for we have sinned"   (Is. 64:6) "our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"  (Is. 64:6) "our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away"  (Is. 64:7) "thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities." 

So again, my question, which you continue to avoid, if all our righteousness is as filthy rags doesn't refer to all, then who are those that stand before God in their own righteousness?  You maybe? 

Quantrill

[Fenris]

Context reveals it is addressing a specific people under the judgement of God.  How is that not a theological statement.  And Isaiah identifies with the people under this  judgement.  (Is. 64:6) "But we are all".

Isaiah is not even the speaker. Read the chapter. C'mon man.

No.  Isaiah is the writer.  He uses the term 'we' because he identifies himself as under that judgement.  The generation of (586 B.C.) or (70 A.D.) are not writing this prophecy. 

How can Isaiah be the speaker? Same chapter:

Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
    even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
 Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
    has been burned with fire,
    and all that we treasured lies in ruins.

Isaiah did not witness these events. The speakers are the people who did. 

Well, apparently you haven't read it.  Read the whole chapter.  (Is. 60)  You will see it is about 'all of Israel'.

This is a different topic. A different generation. The generation that sees redemption. Isaiah isn't the speaker there either.

No, Isaiah is speaking.  And what he says is true of that generation, but is true of him and his generation also. 'we'   Just like he identifes completely with those Jews at the foot of Sinai when God came down.  (Is. 64:3)

That's describing events in the distant past. C'mon man. You're being obtuse.

Of course it is about standing before God in judgement. 

It is describing the mourning of that generation. Read it.

So again, my question, which you continue to avoid, if all our righteousness is as filthy rags doesn't refer to all,

It doesn't refer to all. Again, it's the mourning of that generation. You're inventing an entire theology based on a single verse in the bible, that you've tortured out of context. If you want to feel bad about yourself, that's your business. Don't expect me to follow suit.

who are those that stand before God in their own righteousness?  You maybe? 

I expect that God, in His infinite wisdom and compassion, will give a careful accounting of everyone's deeds, both good and bad.

Quantrill

Fenris aka Wolf of Fenrir

[Quantrill]

@Fenris

Isaiah is the writer of the Book.  (Is. 1:1) "The vision of Isaiah...."  Do you really own a Bible?

Isaiah is a prophet.  God reveals to His prophets future things.  Do you really own a Bible?  Or rather, do you really believe the Bible?

No, it's not a different topic and you're the one that brought up (Is. 60) in the first place. 

Of course (Is. 64:3) is describing things in the past.  He is describing God coming down to Mount Sinai.  And he uses the term 'we'.  "Which we looked not for"   Isaiah identifies with the Jews at the base of Sinai just as he identifies with 'all', when he says "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthyrags".

I showed you that (Is. 64) is about judgement.  I gave you the verses.  (Is. 64:5) "thou art wroth; for we have sinned"  (Is. 64:6) "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags"   (Is. 64:6) "our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" thou has hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities"   To which you have nothing to say.  You have provided nothing.

Again, scared man, if " all our righteousness are as filthy rags" in (Is. 64:6) doesn't refer to 'all', then who are those who it does not refer to?   In other words, who are those who stand in their own righteousness.  You?   

So, are you saying there are those who do stand in their own righteousness.   Well, I just happen to agree that there are.  And what might their final end be?  They who stand in their own righteousness?   Book, chapter, and verse.

Quantrill

[gordon7]

Anyone find it interesting that the topic is about all righteousness being from Christ, yet the discussion is divided, in strife, people displaying swiftness to speak, and slowness to hear ?

So hear the words of God, this is a bible forum right ? God begat us with the word of truth, that is why every man is to be swift to hear, and slow to speak. ( Let Gods word guide us which contains no strife or debate, only testimony of the righteousness of Jesus Christ to believe in and to follow after.)

The wrath of man ( in strife and debate) does not work the righteousness of God. ( it is opposing to the righteousness of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.)

Then to be correct, you lay apart all filthiness and unnecessary naughtiness ( we must not strive against each other.) and receive with meekness the engrafted word able to save our souls.


James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

[Athanasius]

Anyone find it interesting that the topic is about all righteousness being from Christ, yet the discussion is divided, in strife, people displaying swiftness to speak, and slowness to hear ?

Sounds like a discussion forum. Fenris is Jewish as well if you didn't know.

[gordon7]

Not the time to read up on the whole thread, but I would suggest that only PERFECT righteousness is from Christ, whereas man's righteousness, though real, is not complete.   

I think the right way of saying "all righteousness" is to say Holiness.   In view of Christ, we too, are holy.   In and of ourselves, our efforts are incomplete.    to rely on one's own righteousness (self righteousness) leads to failure, however, even Christ did not discount the effort of the Pharisees as nothing.  It might even be said He actually laid out the righteousness of the Pharisee as a baseline!  (Matthew 5:20)

Except our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees we do not enter into the Kingdom of God. ( seek His Kingdom and righteousness, instead of that of the Pharisees. Matthew 6:23.)




Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.




The righteousness of the Pharisees, is that they do not hunger nor thirst after righteousness. ( blessed if we do hunger and thirst after righteousness, as then we would be filled with the righteousness of Christ.)

Woe unto those who are full, ( the Pharisees who did not hunger nor thirst after the righteousness of the Kingdom of Heaven.) they shall hunger.




Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Luke 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.




Here at Matthew 23, it is proven by Christ, that woe was to those same Pharisees, which indeed appeared beautiful outward, inside they are full of all uncleanness, they outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within, ( in the heart) they are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. ( ungodliness/unrighteousness.)

Matthew 6:16-18, also has Jesus teach us to not appear unto men to fast, ( as the Pharisees did, sounding a trumpet, to have glory of men, in the alms they gave. Matthew 6:2) but to God which is in secret, for God to reward us openly.

In 1 Peter 3, the testimony continues, of not letting it be the outward appearance, but to let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.





Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Matthew 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.





All of that is belief in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, through Jesus revealing the world is reproved of sin and of righteousness and of judgement. Sin as they showed they never did thirst for that righteousness of Jesus Christ, reproved of righteousness because they remained in outward appearance of it, and reproved of judgement as that was the prince of this world judged, who was a murderer from the beginning, and they follow in his same lusts and murder. ( the father of those Pharisees. John 8:44)




John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.




If we do know that Jesus Christ is righteous, ( as His testimonies revealed to the world, which was judged by the righteousness of Christ laying His life down for us to believe in His love. 1 John 3:16.) then every one that does righteousness is born of Him. This manifests who is of God and who is not of God, ( then of their father the devil., as the Pharisees were revealed to be by Christ testifying against them.) those who do not do righteousness ( the Pharisees and those like them.) do not love their brother, they are not of God.

To not be as Cain, who killed his brother, but to be as Abel whose works unlike Cains, were righteous. ( no murderer as the devil and his children, have any eternal life abiding in them.)




1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

[gordon7]

Anyone find it interesting that the topic is about all righteousness being from Christ, yet the discussion is divided, in strife, people displaying swiftness to speak, and slowness to hear ?

Sounds like a discussion forum. Fenris is Jewish as well if you didn't know.

Yes it is a discussion forum, and this topic is about the righteousness from Christ.

Then the scriptures testifying what is that righteousness and what is not, are relevant. ( necessary for us, unlike strife and debate.) and the righteousness of God is being slow to speak, so that we might be swift to hear Gods righteousness as testified here....




James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

[Fenris]

Isaiah is the writer of the Book.  (Is. 1:1) "The vision of Isaiah...."

That doesn't mean he is the only voice. Who said "I am the first and I am the last"?  (Is 48) Is that Isaiah too?

Do you really own a Bible?

Enough.

Of course (Is. 64:3) is describing things in the past. 

Then why can't he describe things in the future?

I showed you that (Is. 64) is about judgement. ...  To which you have nothing to say.  You have provided nothing.

I have said, multiple times, that its not about judgment but about mourning. Just as Is 60 is about rejoicing.

Again, scared man

Enough.

if " all our righteousness are as filthy rags" in (Is. 64:6) doesn't refer to 'all', then who are those who it does not refer to?   

The generation that saw the destruction, descibing their feelings.

In other words, who are those who stand in their own righteousness.   

It has nothing whatsoever to do with judgement or standing on righteousness.

So, are you saying there are those who do stand in their own righteousness.   Well, I just happen to agree that there are.  And what might their final end be?  They who stand in their own righteousness?   

Judaism is about sanctification, not judgement.

[Fenris]

we must not strive against each other

I don't think we're capable of changing each other's outlook necessarily. But we can at least try to understand each other better. All of us.

[Athanasius]

Isaiah is the writer of the Book.  (Is. 1:1) "The vision of Isaiah...."  Do you really own a Bible?

Not cool. This thread is going to take a break until tomorrow.