all righteousness is from Christ

[RandyPNW]

Some wonder what the difference is between the righteousness of the non-Christian world and the righteousness of the Christian world? Some even believe that the pagan world cannot have any righteousness at all, since it is compromised by self-interest. And some believe that even Christians have no righteousness of their own, that they are mere "worms," who Christ expresses his righteousness through. What is the truth?

Well, I can give you my bit. I believe that all righteousness comes from Christ, whether expressed in the non-Christian world or in the Church itself. What sets the non-Christian world apart from the Church are a number of things. But I can say this much.

One, the world simply partakes of righteousness when it is of personal interest. As such, the righteousness is real, the love is real, but it is contaminated by self-interest, as well. It is also compromised by a lack of consistency, choosing one time to be righteous and another time to manufacture a false righteousness, or just to flat out sin.

Two, the Church is a "worm," and separate from Christ's righteousness, only after a major sin has been committed. The person "feels" as if he or she is a worm, having forsaken the Lord for a time.

But in reality, God does not forsake His own, even when they fall, as long as they seek to return to Him. All sin can be forgiven. Righteousness can be restored. And the conscience can be assuaged.

It is still clear that even a restored Christian can exhibit an "on again off again" righteousness, and can, like the world, exhibit righteousness for selfish purposes. But  an obedient Christian is one that chooses to *live in* righteousness, and not just pick and choose every day. The mature Christian learns consistency in demonstrating righteousness.

The theology of our righteousness is something else. Even stating "our righteousness" brings horror to some Christians. To state that our righteousness has any role in our Salvation also brings instant rebuke. But a lot of this is terminology. As long as we couch our words in a proper context then the words can remain free of misuse and misinterpretation.

One, our works could not earn us Salvation. And two, whatever righteousness we do exhibit does not mean it is strictly "ours," and exclusive of Christ himself. All righteousness comes, I believe, from Christ, whether the person contaminates and taints it or not.

But many people in the Church have grown accustomed to the Protestant language of Luther, who denied any role of our works in our Salvation. Of course that's true, and Paul taught that as well.

But this language sometimes fails to see that in denying our works a role in our Salvation they are actually referencing the Scriptures where they admit that it is our "record" that excludes us from Heaven.  It is not at all saying that the Christian has no righteousness in himself or herself. It is only stating the fact that any sin, and any contamination at all, can exclude one from Heaven.

So it isn't by our "record" of righteousness that we obtain Salvation. Rather, it is by the perfect record of Christ that he is able to grant us forgiveness and not have his priestly functions invalidated by his own personal sin.

And because Christ can indeed forgive us, and confirm that forgiveness by sharing his own qualitative righteousness with us, it is an indication that our righteousness belongs to him and can bear the stamp of his forgiveness. It's just that forgiveness for eternal life, or Salvation, is contingent upon our receiving his Spirit and his righteousness within us as a permanent habitation.

It is critical, I believe, to recognize the importance of having our own righteousness, received from Christ, which he imparts to us when we follow his teaching. Even more, it is important to make him Lord and Savior by committing to follow him and his righteousness *always.*

This is the Christian sense of our receiving Eternal Life, which is inferred when we make New Covenant agreement with Christ by committing ourselves to his lordship, and in return, receiving his eternal dwelling within us. This is the reciprocal agreement, to give the Lord our heart, and he in turn to give us his Spirit and life.

This internalization of him and his Spirit is what gives us a righteousness stamped with and bearing his own spotless record. And it indicates that we are saved forever.

As such, we *should* exhibit righteousness all the time, even if with our foibles and imperfections. If we are obeying him, then it should be obvious that we are righteous just as he is righteous.

1 John 3.7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

[Fenris]

I guess we're done with the other discussion then, time to move on?

[Athanasius]

Some wonder...

This subforum requires scripture references, so let's get them added.

[IMINXTC]

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Is 64:6

Righteousness outside of Christ is relative morality at best, as it is not rooted in obedience and in concord with God.

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2Cor5:21

Christ is our righteousness. All else falls short.

Non-scriptural discourse is far too wordy and leaves room for error, fanciful delusions and false doctrine.

[Fenris]

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Is 64:6

I know that people like to quote this verse, but it's never provided with context. What else does this chapter say?

Your sacred cities have become a wasteland;
    even Zion is a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation.
 Our holy and glorious temple, where our ancestors praised you,
    has been burned with fire,
    and all that we treasured lies in ruins.

In other words, this chapter is about the generation that saw the destruction of the temple and the exile to Babylon.

Once we accept that, then it become obvious that the above quoted verse about "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" isn't meant to apply to all of humanity for all time. It's mean to apply to that generation of Jews who suffered the exile. That was how they felt.

[Fenris]

Some wonder...

This subforum requires scripture references, so let's get them added.

Wikipedia editors will always mark up the text when someone says "Some" with the word (who?) afterwards.

Some believe this. Who?

[IMINXTC]

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"Rm3:10

"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rm3:19,20

[RandyPNW]

I guess we're done with the other discussion then, time to move on?

No, I can walk and chew gum at the same time. As I've said many times, I spent about 10 years on Usenet just to talk to a few people interested in Jewish-Christian theological discussions. Unfortunately, I learned that many Jews prefer to just be left alone.

Alt.messianic was created by one Reform Jew to deter and to discourage Christians from visiting Jewish websites, trying to convert them. I obviously would love to see Jews embrace Christianity, but I'm not primarily an evangelist.

I like theology, just as my brother likes biblical languages. It is our "thing." We can talk about most anything you like in this regard until the sun goes down...wherever you may live!

Alt.messianic fell out of my favor a long time ago because moderated chat groups became more desirable, leaving unmoderated Usenet groups to be dominated by crackpots and trolls. I appreciate you, Fenris, even though you get testy. I have that human tendency, as well. If you don't feel anything, you probably don't believe something strong enough?

[Athanasius]

Wikipedia editors will always mark up the text when someone says "Some" with the word (who?) afterwards.

Yes, ambiguous language ('some'), blur words ('well'), etc. are to be avoided. The former give the appearance of a consensus when for all we know, no such consensus exists.

[Aijalon]

Not the time to read up on the whole thread, but I would suggest that only PERFECT righteousness is from Christ, whereas man's righteousness, though real, is not complete.   

I think the right way of saying "all righteousness" is to say Holiness.   In view of Christ, we too, are holy.   In and of ourselves, our efforts are incomplete.    to rely on one's own righteousness (self righteousness) leads to failure, however, even Christ did not discount the effort of the Pharisees as nothing.  It might even be said He actually laid out the righteousness of the Pharisee as a baseline!  (Matthew 5:20)

[RandyPNW]

Not the time to read up on the whole thread, but I would suggest that only PERFECT righteousness is from Christ, whereas man's righteousness, though real, is not complete.   

I think the right way of saying "all righteousness" is to say Holiness.   In view of Christ, we too, are holy.   In and of ourselves, our efforts are incomplete.    to rely on one's own righteousness (self righteousness) leads to failure, however, even Christ did not discount the effort of the Pharisees as nothing.  It might even be said He actually laid out the righteousness of the Pharisee as a baseline!  (Matthew 5:20)

Yea, that's kind of what I'm saying, that the righteousness in non-Christians is real. But it is  insubstantial to God with respect to obtaining eternal life. It may warrant a better place in the afterlife, but the only righteousness that obtains Heaven is one that is associated with Christ himself.

Accepting him takes responsibility for the wrong in autonomous living, and assumes the need for connection to Christ in all things. Only in this way can all sin be truly repented of and allow Christ's atonement to truly be applied.

After all, accepting Christ is embracing the truth that sin is living outside of submission to the Creator. As Christ fully submitted to God his Father, so we are to submit to Christ, as the representative of God.

When we accept a righteousness that is associated with Christ himself, we are marked for Christ's spirituality, or the born-again experience. We bear the fruit of a relationship with Christ, which is more than "doing right."

It is both doing right and producing the character traits of Christ in spiritual joy and love, for example. This "enhanced righteousness" is what is necessary for us to show that we've been "saved."

This is not just a part-time righteousness but more, a committed righteousness, a righteousness of submission. Otherwise, we are back to embracing the idea of autonomous living, picking and choosing when we want to be righteous and when we don't.

[Titus]

Some wonder what the difference is between the righteousness of the non-Christian world and the righteousness of the Christian world? Some even believe that the pagan world cannot have any righteousness at all, since it is compromised by self-interest. And some believe that even Christians have no righteousness of their own, that they are mere "worms," who Christ expresses his righteousness through. What is the truth?

Well, I can give you my bit. I believe that all righteousness comes from Christ, whether expressed in the non-Christian world or in the Church itself. What sets the non-Christian world apart from the Church are a number of things. But I can say this much.

One, the world simply partakes of righteousness when it is of personal interest. As such, the righteousness is real, the love is real, but it is contaminated by self-interest, as well. It is also compromised by a lack of consistency, choosing one time to be righteous and another time to manufacture a false righteousness, or just to flat out sin.

Two, the Church is a "worm," and separate from Christ's righteousness, only after a major sin has been committed. The person "feels" as if he or she is a worm, having forsaken the Lord for a time.

But in reality, God does not forsake His own, even when they fall, as long as they seek to return to Him. All sin can be forgiven. Righteousness can be restored. And the conscience can be assuaged.

It is still clear that even a restored Christian can exhibit an "on again off again" righteousness, and can, like the world, exhibit righteousness for selfish purposes. But  an obedient Christian is one that chooses to *live in* righteousness, and not just pick and choose every day. The mature Christian learns consistency in demonstrating righteousness.

The theology of our righteousness is something else. Even stating "our righteousness" brings horror to some Christians. To state that our righteousness has any role in our Salvation also brings instant rebuke. But a lot of this is terminology. As long as we couch our words in a proper context then the words can remain free of misuse and misinterpretation.

One, our works could not earn us Salvation. And two, whatever righteousness we do exhibit does not mean it is strictly "ours," and exclusive of Christ himself. All righteousness comes, I believe, from Christ, whether the person contaminates and taints it or not.

But many people in the Church have grown accustomed to the Protestant language of Luther, who denied any role of our works in our Salvation. Of course that's true, and Paul taught that as well.

But this language sometimes fails to see that in denying our works a role in our Salvation they are actually referencing the Scriptures where they admit that it is our "record" that excludes us from Heaven.  It is not at all saying that the Christian has no righteousness in himself or herself. It is only stating the fact that any sin, and any contamination at all, can exclude one from Heaven.

So it isn't by our "record" of righteousness that we obtain Salvation. Rather, it is by the perfect record of Christ that he is able to grant us forgiveness and not have his priestly functions invalidated by his own personal sin.

And because Christ can indeed forgive us, and confirm that forgiveness by sharing his own qualitative righteousness with us, it is an indication that our righteousness belongs to him and can bear the stamp of his forgiveness. It's just that forgiveness for eternal life, or Salvation, is contingent upon our receiving his Spirit and his righteousness within us as a permanent habitation.

It is critical, I believe, to recognize the importance of having our own righteousness, received from Christ, which he imparts to us when we follow his teaching. Even more, it is important to make him Lord and Savior by committing to follow him and his righteousness *always.*

This is the Christian sense of our receiving Eternal Life, which is inferred when we make New Covenant agreement with Christ by committing ourselves to his lordship, and in return, receiving his eternal dwelling within us. This is the reciprocal agreement, to give the Lord our heart, and he in turn to give us his Spirit and life.

This internalization of him and his Spirit is what gives us a righteousness stamped with and bearing his own spotless record. And it indicates that we are saved forever.

As such, we *should* exhibit righteousness all the time, even if with our foibles and imperfections. If we are obeying him, then it should be obvious that we are righteous just as he is righteous.

1 John 3.7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

I believe most of this is True, and Christ has done a work that we can never adequately thank Him for in His sacrifice for our past sins, but obedience does make a man righteous in the Bible.

No, we can't save ourselves, but we are right in God's eyes when we obey the Commandments. Many claim no man is righteous, and abuse the Romans verse that seems to make that claim, but that is not accurate with the weight of Scripture at all and there are countless references to righteous men, especially in the Psalms.

[Quantrill]

It is important for believers, both Old and New Testament, to know that we do not stand before God in our own righteousness.  Both Old and NewTestaments are clear.  (Is. 64:6)  (Rom. 3:9-10)

We stand before God in the righteousness of Jesus Christ that is imputed to us by decree.  (Gen. 15:6) "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

(Rom 3:21-22) "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested....Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe....."

(Philippians 3:8-9) "...that I may win Christ,  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith."

And, throughout all eternity, we will always be before God in the righteousness of Christ.  Not our own.  Say we have been in Heaven for 500 million years, enjoying the presence of God and Christ and the fellowship of all the saints, and have been without sin for that long.   We still are there only because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ.  Not ours. 

We stand only in the imputed righteousness of Christ. 

Quantrill

[Fenris]

It is important for believers, both Old and New Testament, to know that we do not stand before God in our own righteousness.  Both Old and NewTestaments are clear.  (Is. 64:6)  (Rom. 3:9-10)

I think Isaiah 64:6 is being misunderstood here.

"...we all have become like one unclean, and like a discarded garment are all our righteous deeds..."

This is not a theological statement. And it's also not a legal statement. It doesn't apply to all people of all time, or even all Jews. It's the cry of the downtrodden people of the generation that saw the Temple's destruction and the Jewish disapora. The surrounding verses make this quite clear.

"Be not wroth, O Lord, so very greatly, and remember not iniquity forever; please look, all of us are Your people. Your holy cities have become a desert; Zion has become a desert, Jerusalem a desolation. Our sanctuary and our glory, wherein our forefathers praised You is burnt with fire, and all our coveted places have become a waste."

Four chapters earlier, in Is 60, we have the verse "And your people, all of them righteous..." Nobody suggests that refers to all Jews of all generations. It's talking about the generation of the messianic era.

[Quantrill]

@Fenris

Why isn't it a theological statement.  It concerns ones relationship to God?

And, all people since the beginning of the world are  being addressed in (Is. 64:4). "For since the beginning of the world men have not heard...."  And in (64:5) "Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness....."   

And, (Is. 64:6) fits very with 'all', be it all of mankind or all of Israel.  For, Isaiah at the beginning is addressing Judah and Jerusalem, (Is. 1:1) and Identifies it with Sodom and Gomorrah.  (Is. 1:9-10)  He is not just addressing those who are outwardly sinful.  He is addressing those that are doing all the religious things that make them appear to be good.  (Is. 1:10-17)  All are guilty.

Just like (Is. 64:6) says.   "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" 

Even though (Is. 64:9-11) looks to the future destruction of the Temple in 70A.D., that doesn't change the 'all' in (64:6)    And, if you think it doesn't mean 'all', then just who are the ones that (64:6) does not refer to?   You maybe?  Funny how Isaiah included himself.   "But we are all"   And this being after the LORD purged him of his iniquity.  (Is. 6: 5-eight)

(Is. 60:21) speaks to all of Israel in the Messianic era.  And all of Israel will be righteous.   Imputed righteousness.   

Quantrill