BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Apologetics => Topic started by: Reddogs on August 06, 2026, 09:25:13 AM
-
Lets look at 1 Peter 4:17 and see what the context is and what the Bible has supporting text that gives us better understanding.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
The Bible is pretty clear on the phrase "judgment must begin at the house of God" that comes from 1 Peter 4:17 in the Bible. It means God starts His process of judgement with His own believers or the church before dealing with the wicked or rest of the world that refuses to obey God and does not believe. We see what will happen at the Second Coming which is laid out by Christ Himself.
Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
The saints cannot simply go to heaven without a determination of their standing. Man is not immortal of self and doesnt go to straight to heaven or hell at death, and there is not any kind of judgment immediately after death. We see that it begins with the believers as the Bible declares in1 Peter 4:17, the judgment begins first for the house of God. And we find much more..
1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
And we see this..
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
And we find what shows who..
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God and it begins at the house of God or believers, so all believers must repent and be converted, not just say they are... as we see in Acts 3.18-19
But those things, which God foretold by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And you cant just claim ignorance when we come to the judgement seat of Christ, as the Bible makes clear.
Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom he has ordained; He has given assurance of this to all men, by raising him from the dead.
Romans 2:15-16
. . .Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,...In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
The text, and context and supporting text clearly indicts that all will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, those who are judged worthy by Christ are covered with the blood of the lamb, have His robe of righteousness, and will be separated, the sheep from the goats/the saints from the wicked at the Second Coming of Christ when He comes to take His saints to heaven where He has prepare a place for them.
-
Not playing the eisegetical lecture game.
This is like geometry. You have to show your work.
Who was the audience of the epistle and why was it written? Please don’t drag once verse out as a prooftext
-
Lets look at 1 Peter 4:17 and see what the context is and what the Bible has supporting text that gives us better understanding.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
The Bible is pretty clear on the phrase "judgment must begin at the house of God" that comes from 1 Peter 4:17 in the Bible. It means God starts His process of judgement with His own believers or the church before dealing with the wicked or rest of the world that refuses to obey God and does not believe. We see what will happen at the Second Coming which is laid out by Christ Himself.
1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
You don't show context by immediately moving away from 1 Peter, and if we limit your post to your discussion of 1 Peter you end up with just this, which is still at the level of assertion.
For God to judge He must start judging? Obviously.
But you're not just arguing for that. The problem is that you're dancing around the thing you're really trying to argue you for. It's an embarrassing, nonsensical doctrine, and I wouldn't want to argue out in the open for it either.
-
Not playing the eisegetical lecture game.
This is like geometry. You have to show your work.
Who was the audience of the epistle and why was it written? Please don’t drag once verse out as a prooftext
Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked. So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes. This connects to directly to Matthew 25:31-34
Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Which Christ Himself declares and explains to the disciples, in countless verses but I will just give one to keep it simple.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Now Christ has been given this as we see in
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
And we see it in Jude saying that Enoch has also prophesized what you can see confirms these text.
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
So where does it get decided before He comes, well lets go first to the text showing that all will be judged, the sheep and the goats/saints and the wicked.
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.
We see it says 'we all shall all' and 'we must all' so that is clear, then we must look to see where and I will give a text for context in Revelation.
Revelation 4:1-2
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Notice the place is in heaven and a throne is set and the is one sitting on the throne, now compare to this courtroom scene in Daniel where judgement is being done.
Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Now I am going to stop there, and see if Rabbi is ok up to this point as he asks me to 'show your work.'
-
Seems we've dropped our bucket down a dry well.
-
No, now you are engaging in the same old junk again with you grabbing a smorgasbord of verses as proof texts of the conclusion you are trying to get to.
The text in Peter says nothing about sheep and goats or end times
1 Peter 4 is focused on the fact that believers should expect to suffer just as Jesus suffered. Jesus suffered in the flesh. Believers should expect to suffer in the flesh. Peter then tells the reader to stop living like sinful Gentiles and to live holy lives as good stewards of the grace of God so that God is glorified.
The exhortation is to rejoice when persecuted, but to not be stupid and suffer for sinful behavior.
The time for judgment is now, not to judgment at the end of the age.
The time perspective for judgment is the same as for the exhortation to righteous living…. Now, not some day by and by.
The passage simply says nothing about end times and it is simply improper to try to force the passage into an end of time judgment or an end of time judgment into the passage.
-
And you didnt show any work
You showed continued solutions in search of a problem
-
Not playing the eisegetical lecture game.
This is like geometry. You have to show your work.
Who was the audience of the epistle and why was it written? Please don’t drag once verse out as a prooftext
Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked. So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes. This connects to directly to Matthew 25:31-34
Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Which Christ Himself declares and explains to the disciples, in countless verses but I will just give one to keep it simple.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Now Christ has been given this as we see in
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
And we see it in Jude saying that Enoch has also prophesized what you can see confirms these text.
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
So where does it get decided before He comes, well lets go first to the text showing that all will be judged, the sheep and the goats/saints and the wicked.
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.
We see it says 'we all shall all' and 'we must all' so that is clear, then we must look to see where and I will give a text for context in Revelation.
Revelation 4:1-2
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Notice the place is in heaven and a throne is set and the is one sitting on the throne, now compare to this courtroom scene in Daniel where judgement is being done.
Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Now I am going to stop there, and see if Rabbi is ok up to this point as he asks me to 'show your work.'
He's asked to 'show your work' as you're yet to show your work. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A by appealing to X other Scripture that you argue show A, then you should be able to show A from 1 Peter alone. But what you're doing is proof-texting at best, or abusing Scripture at worst. The latter in that you're forcing a reading of 1 Peter that isn't natural to 1 Peter. The Bible is its own interpreter? Great! But that means you'd show 'Matthew says A and 1 Peter says A'. Not 'Matthew says A therefore 1 Peter is saying A'.
Because again, you immediately move away from 1 Peter 4:17 to talk about that absurd doctrine you're avoiding naming. You hide it there in your appeal to Matthew 25 -- "So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes". You don't mean that he'll separate the two when He comes, but He'll have separated the two by the time He's come. Why don't you just come out and say it? It's going to be October soon anyway.
-
No, now you are engaging in the same old junk again with you grabbing a smorgasbord of verses as proof texts of the conclusion you are trying to get to.
The text in Peter says nothing about sheep and goats or end times
1 Peter 4 is focused on the fact that believers should expect to suffer just as Jesus suffered. Jesus suffered in the flesh. Believers should expect to suffer in the flesh. Peter then tells the reader to stop living like sinful Gentiles and to live holy lives as good stewards of the grace of God so that God is glorified.
The exhortation is to rejoice when persecuted, but to not be stupid and suffer for sinful behavior.
The time for judgment is now, not to judgment at the end of the age.
The time perspective for judgment is the same as for the exhortation to righteous living…. Now, not some day by and by.
The passage simply says nothing about end times and it is simply improper to try to force the passage into an end of time judgment or an end of time judgment into the passage.
Well, if I try to go beyond one point, immediately..... https://bibleforums.us/index.php?topic=783.msg16026;topicseen#new
-
You have an absurd hermaneutic and methodology
The sad part is that I don’t think you know that
-
And you didnt show any work
You showed continued solutions in search of a problem
The problem is man can claim they follow God, but He is the one that will judge which is the solution we are shown in the text.
-
And you didnt show any work
You showed continued solutions in search of a problem
The problem is man can claim they follow God, but He is the one that will judge which is the solution we are shown in the text.
Objection. Relevance. Speculation. Assumes facts not in evidence. Gobbledygook.
-
Not playing the eisegetical lecture game.
This is like geometry. You have to show your work.
Who was the audience of the epistle and why was it written? Please don’t drag once verse out as a prooftext
Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked. So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes. This connects to directly to Matthew 25:31-34
Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Which Christ Himself declares and explains to the disciples, in countless verses but I will just give one to keep it simple.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Now Christ has been given this as we see in
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
And we see it in Jude saying that Enoch has also prophesized what you can see confirms these text.
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
So where does it get decided before He comes, well lets go first to the text showing that all will be judged, the sheep and the goats/saints and the wicked.
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.
We see it says 'we all shall all' and 'we must all' so that is clear, then we must look to see where and I will give a text for context in Revelation.
Revelation 4:1-2
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Notice the place is in heaven and a throne is set and the is one sitting on the throne, now compare to this courtroom scene in Daniel where judgement is being done.
Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Now I am going to stop there, and see if Rabbi is ok up to this point as he asks me to 'show your work.'
He's asked to 'show your work' as you're yet to show your work. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A by appealing to X other Scripture that you argue show A, then you should be able to show A from 1 Peter alone. But what you're doing is proof-texting at best, or abusing Scripture at worst. The latter in that you're forcing a reading of 1 Peter that isn't natural to 1 Peter. The Bible is its own interpreter? Great! But that means you'd show 'Matthew says A and 1 Peter says A'. Not 'Matthew says A therefore 1 Peter is saying A'.
Because again, you immediately move away from 1 Peter 4:17 to talk about that absurd doctrine you're avoiding naming. You hide it there in your appeal to Matthew 25 -- "So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes". You don't mean that he'll separate the two when He comes, but He'll have separated the two by the time He's come. Why don't you just come out and say it? It's going to be October soon anyway.
Well, you cannot reduce God or the deep things of God to just an equation. 1 + 1 will not come out when it comes to Creation, to say nothing of the Trinity, or even the Flood. Belief is not following what some say to do, 3 Hail Marys and 1 Our father takes care of everything. Even Nicodemus had trouble understanding the truth that Christ was telling him. Truth is more than just adding things in a literal way, you have to consider the Holy Spirit and its work, what cannot be proven by this type of 'equation' is guided by something we cant see or touch which brings us to undeniable truth. You have the sin of the saints, Christ must judge if they have repented from them and truly been converted, He does it openly so all can see God is just and applies His blood for their redemption, and everyone is judged and either receive eternal life or eternal death. The Bible is clear...
-
The Bible is clear.
Christians are not condemned or judged for our sins, which are already forgiven.
The only judgment Christians receive is as to their stewardship and their good works.
Or do you believe if I, as a Christian, lose my temper just before I get killed by a bus and scream “f*ck” , or if I’m lusting after a woman I just saw in the grocery store and don’t repent before I have a heart attack and die, that I go to hell?”
Saved by faith, kept by works.
Got it
-
Well, you cannot reduce God or the deep things of God to just an equation. 1 + 1 will not come out when it comes to Creation, to say nothing of the Trinity, or even the Flood. Belief is not following what some say to do, 3 Hail Marys and 1 Our father takes care of everything. Even Nicodemus had trouble understanding the truth that Christ was telling him. Truth is more than just adding things in a literal way, you have to consider the Holy Spirit and its work, what cannot be proven by this type of 'equation' is guided by something we cant see or touch which brings us to undeniable truth. You have the sin of the saints, Christ must judge if they have repented from them and truly been converted, He does it openly so all can see God is just and applies His blood for their redemption, and everyone is judged and either receive eternal life or eternal death. The Bible is clear...
Did you want to try actually replying to what I said, Kierkegaard?
-
]Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked.
I have a question.
So in your opinion, everyone in the world is either a saint or wicked? That's it? Because I think that most of the world are those people in the middle. Ordinary people, struggling to do the right thing every day.
-
]Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked.
I have a question.
So in your opinion, everyone in the world is either a saint or wicked? That's it? Because I think that most of the world are those people in the middle. Ordinary people, struggling to do the right thing every day.
This is where Christianity— at least historically orthodoxy— departs from all other religions
Christianity teaches that all are sinful because of their own individual affronts to the holiness of God.
Christianity also teaches that only the penal substitutionary atonement of Jesus can remedy that.
Christianity also teaches than no man can earn or attain that atonement apart from grace
So no, Christianity really doesn’t separate the good from the evil from a personal quality or character context. Or even from a good deeds bs evil deeds
Christianity looks only at what Jesus did and our response to it
So Christian theology can’t really answer Fenris’ question as it’s sort of apples and Studebakers
-
So Christian theology can’t really answer Fenris’ question as it’s sort of apples and Studebakers
I'm not looking for Christian theology to answer that question. I'm asking Reddogs to answer it, because he's the one who framed all of humanity in such a way. I don't think that Christians (well maybe Catholics, but none of here are) see humanity as "saints" vs "the wicked". Probably more as "saved" vs "not saved", which is not really the same thing.
-
Seventh Day Adventism holds to several doctrines which are highly problematc (as shown) and the denomination's origins are rooted, historically, in embarrassing error and false prophecy..
SDA apologetics are semi-philosophical, contradictory and quasi-biblical.
-
]Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked.
I have a question.
So in your opinion, everyone in the world is either a saint or wicked? That's it? Because I think that most of the world are those people in the middle. Ordinary people, struggling to do the right thing every day.
But at the end, you will be by your choices, given the gift that Christ died to get for you, or you will perish. Its clearly laid out in John 3:16.
John 3:16
King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
We see it everywhere if you truly look, and we also find it linked to the Second Coming that all should repent so as not to perish right by 1 Peter 4:17.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This is not 'doctrine' per se, its truth from a broad spectrum of those inspired to give us His Word.
-
But at the end, you will be given the gift that Christ died to get for you, or you will perish. Its clearly laid out in John 3:16.
You didn't answer my question. You never answer my question. You always change the subject.
-
]Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked.
I have a question.
So in your opinion, everyone in the world is either a saint or wicked? That's it? Because I think that most of the world are those people in the middle. Ordinary people, struggling to do the right thing every day.
This is where Christianity— at least historically orthodoxy— departs from all other religions
Christianity teaches that all are sinful because of their own individual affronts to the holiness of God.
Christianity also teaches that only the penal substitutionary atonement of Jesus can remedy that.
Christianity also teaches than no man can earn or attain that atonement apart from grace
So no, Christianity really doesn’t separate the good from the evil from a personal quality or character context. Or even from a good deeds bs evil deeds
Christianity looks only at what Jesus did and our response to it
So Christian theology can’t really answer Fenris’ question as it’s sort of apples and Studebakers
Well, who would you look for salvation, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Mohammed, Confucius, The Bab...? Gods Word as well as the Torah point to the only one who can save since the Creation and the fall of man....
Acts 4:12
King James Version
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
-
But at the end, you will be given the gift that Christ died to get for you, or you will perish. Its clearly laid out in John 3:16.
You didn't answer my question. You never answer my question. You always change the subject.
Well I like for people to think and answer it themselves, lets take for example just so you get where I am going. Is Hitler a saint/sinner or for Latins I ask is Castro a saint/sinner, and what makes him one?
-
But at the end, you will be given the gift that Christ died to get for you, or you will perish. Its clearly laid out in John 3:16.
You didn't answer my question. You never answer my question. You always change the subject.
Well I like for people to think and answer it themselves, lets take for example just so you get where I am going. Is Hitler a saint/sinner or for Latins I ask is Castro a saint/sinner, and what makes him one?
Absurd. And typical of the nonsensical, circular responses of this poster.
-
Well, who would you look for salvation, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Mohammed, Confucius, The Bab...? Gods Word as well as the Torah
Actually, no. "Salvation" is actually a Christian concept. It doesn't exist in Buddhism, or even Judaism for that matter.
-
lets take for example just so you get where I am going.
You're going in circles, the same as usual. And when you get bored of that, you'll change the subject entirely. Anything to not have to answer a question.
-
Well, who would you look for salvation, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Mohammed, Confucius, The Bab...? Gods Word as well as the Torah
Actually, no. "Salvation" is actually a Christian concept. It doesn't exist in Buddhism, or even Judaism for that matter.
So where does a Jew today hold they will go when they die/cease to live, if I may ask.
-
lets take for example just so you get where I am going.
You're going in circles, the same as usual. And when you get bored of that, you'll change the subject entirely. Anything to not have to answer a question.
Its the same thing, there are two sides to the equation, good or evil. One is the path of salvation through Christ, the other takes you down to destruction as you are separated from God for eternity.
-
Far from the text you started with
-
Far from the text you started with
As the old adage says, 'be careful what you wish for' and asking to 'show your work' gets into many places in scriptures.
-
Likely not the best place to try to spam with Adventist confusion.
Just saying.
-
So where does a Jew today hold they will go when they die/cease to live, if I may ask.
That's the wrong question.
Christianity holds than man needs God for "salvation". Other religions do not. They are not inferior for not offering "salvation", because they do not deem it necessary.
-
As the old adage says, 'be careful what you wish for' and asking to 'show your work' gets into many places in scriptures.
Alas, none of it answering the questions asked.
-
So back on point, its clear the Bible teaches that all believers will one day stand before the judgment seat of Christ and every case decided. Either for the gift of eternal life, or to receive eternal death and they will perish. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of records being kept as we see.
Exodus 32:33
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Malachi 3:16
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
And here we see from Ezekiel where it shows what happens when a good man turns to sin..
Ezekiel 18:24
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
-
So where does a Jew today hold they will go when they die/cease to live, if I may ask.
That's the wrong question.
Christianity holds than man needs God for "salvation". Other religions do not. They are not inferior for not offering "salvation", because they do not deem it necessary.
So a Jew just dies and goes to the grave and turns to dust, and thats the end of it. That is not what my in laws tell me, and they are not even Orthodox...
-
So a Jew just dies and goes to the grave and turns to dust, and thats the end of it. That is not what my in laws tell me, and they are not even Orthodox...
You're not listening to anything I'm saying. I'm just going to start ignoring you. There's no point.
-
So back on point, its clear the Bible teaches that all believers will one day stand before the judgment seat of Christ and every case decided. Either for the gift of eternal life, or to receive eternal death and they will perish. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of records being kept as we see.
Exodus 32:33
33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Malachi 3:16
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
And here we see from Ezekiel where it shows what happens when a good man turns to sin..
Ezekiel 18:24
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Two can play at this:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rm 8:1
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn 1:9
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jn 3:16
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Ga 2:16
Context?
"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Ga 3: 1-3
To be continued... (?)
-
So a Jew just dies and goes to the grave and turns to dust, and thats the end of it. That is not what my in laws tell me, and they are not even Orthodox...
You're not listening to anything I'm saying. I'm just going to start ignoring you. There's no point.
Well here is what my in laws seem to hold happens at death. But I cant say they seem to be clear on it, and prefer not to even talk about it, which now as many are facing the end of life seems strange.
Here is from www.chabad.org
"Jews believe in an afterlife in a world beyond the one you’re currently living in—sometimes referred to as “heaven.” A rich tradition informs us that there is a sequel to this life that makes sense of everything you’re going through in this installment.
Jews call this after-life Olam Ha-ba (“World to Come”) and Gan Eden (“Garden of Eden”).
Belief in an afterlife is core to Judaism. It’s a foundation stone without which the entire structure would collapse....
That’s why we say kaddish for parents after their passing—to assist them on their journey to that lofty peak.
That’s also why we are so concerned with the details of burial—because the soul’s journey is deeply bound to its connection with the body to which it gave life. With this body, the soul performed acts of kindness. With this body, the soul delighted on the Shabbat. It was this body that the soul held back from non-kosher foods. This body prayed, studied, brought children into the world and raised them. From the sweat and toil of this body, the soul earned funds to distribute to those in need.
And that’s why everything we do in this lifetime matters so much, because all the good you do in the here-and-now has meaning for eternity....
The Mishnah is the original and most authoritative collection of Jewish law, redacted in the Roman Era. It states explicitly, “Every Jew has a share in the World To Come.”
Maimonides is considered the great codifier of Judaism. He distilled thirteen principles of the Jewish faith. Two of those are directly connected to belief in reward in an afterlife: The belief in reward for the righteous and punishment for the wicked—which quite obviously does not happen in this lifetime—and the belief in the revival of the dead in a time to come.2
Is it possible to keep all the other precepts of Judaism without expecting any sign of appreciation when done? Maimonides is saying that you would be missing something crucial and essential. And only the most naive could argue that all good people receive their reward in this world..."
Is this the common belief of most Jews or do the Orthodox believe different?
-
Now Christians believe that Christ is being their intercessor and advocate before God the Father in heaven, as we see here. https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Advocate.html
Christ Himself declared who are worthy to be represented by Him and be resurrected at the Second Coming and be given their reward of eternal life as we see here.
Luke 20:35-36
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Christ is our advocate before God because He serves as a mediator for believers and we see this concept in scripture which is rooted in 1 John 2:1
1 John 2
King James Version
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Christ pleads on behalf of believers in heaven, and those He finds true then offers His own blood to cover their sins as a atoning sacrifice. This intercession is not no just being our advocate but also a redemptive act, emphasizing His righteousness which allows Him tom like the lamb in the earthly sanctuary, pay for our sins.
This intercession is also seen here in this text....
Hebrews 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
This clearly shows the nature of Christ's intercession for true believer or those who are in Christ. We find it in what Christians hold across the spectrum, here is from one on Christianity.com. https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/what-does-it-mean-that-jesus-is-our-advocate.html
“Even now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my advocate is on high” (Job 16:19).
An advocate is someone who pleads another’s cause, who helps another by defending or comforting him. Scripture assures us that this is one of Christ’s roles in our life.
In another New Testament instance, the same Greek word (parakletos), is used to describe a Roman advocate (or lawyer) whom the Jews employed to accuse Paul before Felix. So, outside a spiritual context, the word functions as a person who performs tasks as a lawyer.
What Is an Advocate?
The word advocate is referred most often to those involved in the law, but we see the same principle apply to Jesus as our High Priest as well:
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need (Hebrews 4:14-16).
The High Priest was in charge of making the special sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. To a Jew, the High Priest was essentially the ultimate lawyer, a spiritual lawyer, before God the Father."
So as you can see, this is a cornerstone in what Christians believe, not just Adventist....
-
Far from the text you started with
As the old adage says, 'be careful what you wish for' and asking to 'show your work' gets into many places in scriptures.
It can, but only after you've shown A from the immediate context of the work (e.g. 1 Peter) itself. As mentioned, the approach you've attempting here is eisegetical. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A, you must show that from 1 Peter before you appeal everywhere else to say, "See, these say A, therefore 1 Peter is saying A also!"
You can't actually do that though as you're covering for a doctrine you don't want to name.
-
Far from the text you started with
As the old adage says, 'be careful what you wish for' and asking to 'show your work' gets into many places in scriptures.
It can, but only after you've shown A from the immediate context of the work (e.g. 1 Peter) itself. As mentioned, the approach you've attempting here is eisegetical. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A, you must show that from 1 Peter before you appeal everywhere else to say, "See, these say A, therefore 1 Peter is saying A also!"
You can't actually do that though as you're covering for a doctrine you don't want to name.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, the Bible shows the truth. Now if you seek or look for what philosophies or debating forms are the best to use to win a point and display strategy over content, then have at it. But I tend to use the scriptures which those who hold to sola scriptura should not have a issue with..
-
So back on point, its clear the Bible teaches that all believers will one day stand before the judgment seat of Christ and every case decided. Either for the gift of eternal life, or to receive eternal death and they will perish. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of records being kept as we see.
As RK pointed out, you have read into the scripture.
-
Now Christians believe that Christ is being their intercessor and advocate before God the Father in heaven, as we see here. https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Advocate.html
Christ Himself declared who are worthy to be represented by Him and be resurrected at the Second Coming and be given their reward of eternal life as we see here.
Luke 20:35-36
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Christ is our advocate before God because He serves as a mediator for believers and we see this concept in scripture which is rooted in 1 John 2:1
1 John 2
King James Version
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Christ pleads on behalf of believers in heaven, and those He finds true then offers His own blood to cover their sins as a atoning sacrifice. This intercession is not no just being our advocate but also a redemptive act, emphasizing His righteousness which allows Him tom like the lamb in the earthly sanctuary, pay for our sins.
This intercession is also seen here in this text....
Hebrews 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
This clearly shows the nature of Christ's intercession for true believer or those who are in Christ. We find it in what Christians hold across the spectrum, here is from one on Christianity.com. https://www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/what-does-it-mean-that-jesus-is-our-advocate.html
“Even now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my advocate is on high” (Job 16:19).
An advocate is someone who pleads another’s cause, who helps another by defending or comforting him. Scripture assures us that this is one of Christ’s roles in our life.
In another New Testament instance, the same Greek word (parakletos), is used to describe a Roman advocate (or lawyer) whom the Jews employed to accuse Paul before Felix. So, outside a spiritual context, the word functions as a person who performs tasks as a lawyer.
What Is an Advocate?
The word advocate is referred most often to those involved in the law, but we see the same principle apply to Jesus as our High Priest as well:
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need (Hebrews 4:14-16).
The High Priest was in charge of making the special sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. To a Jew, the High Priest was essentially the ultimate lawyer, a spiritual lawyer, before God the Father."
So as you can see, this is a cornerstone in what Christians believe, not just Adventist....
Your appeal to gotquestions is disingenuous -- and we're the wrong crowd if you think that's going to convince us. The JW strategy is old hat. For you aren't merely trying to show that A is "a corner of what Christians believe, not just Adventist". You're trying to sneak in the Adventist doctrine by misconstruing it as A.
Your next response is either going to be wholly centered on 1 Peter, or the thread is getting locked and your 'apologetic' comes to an end.
-
Far from the text you started with
As the old adage says, 'be careful what you wish for' and asking to 'show your work' gets into many places in scriptures.
It can, but only after you've shown A from the immediate context of the work (e.g. 1 Peter) itself. As mentioned, the approach you've attempting here is eisegetical. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A, you must show that from 1 Peter before you appeal everywhere else to say, "See, these say A, therefore 1 Peter is saying A also!"
You can't actually do that though as you're covering for a doctrine you don't want to name.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, the Bible shows the truth. Now if you seek or look for what philosophies or debating forms are the best to use to win a point and display strategy over content, then have at it. But I tend to use the scriptures which those who hold to sola scriptura should not have a issue with..
We're asking you to correct your hermeneutic and actually give the exegetical approach you're claiming. So do that, or go somewhere else (and I'll help you do that).
-
Far from the text you started with
As the old adage says, 'be careful what you wish for' and asking to 'show your work' gets into many places in scriptures.
It can, but only after you've shown A from the immediate context of the work (e.g. 1 Peter) itself. As mentioned, the approach you've attempting here is eisegetical. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A, you must show that from 1 Peter before you appeal everywhere else to say, "See, these say A, therefore 1 Peter is saying A also!"
You can't actually do that though as you're covering for a doctrine you don't want to name.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, the Bible shows the truth. Now if you seek or look for what philosophies or debating forms are the best to use to win a point and display strategy over content, then have at it. But I tend to use the scriptures which those who hold to sola scriptura should not have a issue with..
We're asking you to correct your hermeneutic and actually give the exegetical approach you're claiming. So do that, or go somewhere else (and I'll help you do that).
You can begin with this and see if its correct and as you say 'exegetical'... https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-interceding.html
-
And for the record, Isaiah 28 is NOT a recommendation or standard of incremental learning.
It is just the opposite… it is a condemnation of man’s approach showing that God will use man’s methods to punish man’s arrogance
The truth is the revelation of The Corner Stone.
-
Far from the text you started with
As the old adage says, 'be careful what you wish for' and asking to 'show your work' gets into many places in scriptures.
It can, but only after you've shown A from the immediate context of the work (e.g. 1 Peter) itself. As mentioned, the approach you've attempting here is eisegetical. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A, you must show that from 1 Peter before you appeal everywhere else to say, "See, these say A, therefore 1 Peter is saying A also!"
You can't actually do that though as you're covering for a doctrine you don't want to name.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, the Bible shows the truth. Now if you seek or look for what philosophies or debating forms are the best to use to win a point and display strategy over content, then have at it. But I tend to use the scriptures which those who hold to sola scriptura should not have a issue with..
We're asking you to correct your hermeneutic and actually give the exegetical approach you're claiming. So do that, or go somewhere else (and I'll help you do that).
You can begin with this and see if its correct... https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-interceding.html
Heavy sigh.
-
Far from the text you started with
As the old adage says, 'be careful what you wish for' and asking to 'show your work' gets into many places in scriptures.
It can, but only after you've shown A from the immediate context of the work (e.g. 1 Peter) itself. As mentioned, the approach you've attempting here is eisegetical. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A, you must show that from 1 Peter before you appeal everywhere else to say, "See, these say A, therefore 1 Peter is saying A also!"
You can't actually do that though as you're covering for a doctrine you don't want to name.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, the Bible shows the truth. Now if you seek or look for what philosophies or debating forms are the best to use to win a point and display strategy over content, then have at it. But I tend to use the scriptures which those who hold to sola scriptura should not have a issue with..
We're asking you to correct your hermeneutic and actually give the exegetical approach you're claiming. So do that, or go somewhere else (and I'll help you do that).
You can begin with this and see if its correct... https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-interceding.html
Heavy sigh.
Well, it is what Christians believe, now if you say that you cannot accept Christ, who is the cornerstone as Isaiah points out, and what He does, then what are you left with. Oral Tradition?
-
Obtuse.
-
We had fun, but now he's banned.
-
A bizarre reading of 1 Pt 4:17 that puts believers on a path to the judgment seat.
Okay. I'll shut up..
-
A bizarre reading of 1 Pt 4:17 that puts believers on a path to the judgment seat.
Okay. I'll shut up..
Legalism is a great tool for controlling the unlearned but indoctrinated
Grace, on the other hand, is a very poor tool for controlling and manipulating folk.
-
He was attempting to push "Investigative Judgment", but he was trying to do it by misconstruing "judgment" / by equivocating over the term. Adventists posit 1 Peter 4:17 as one of the primary Scripture "evidences" for the doctrine. The doctrine itself is asinine (seriously, if you haven't read up on it before...), not least of all the bizarre temporal framing, i.e., Jesus had to start his judgment in October 1844 to have made His judgments before His return -- and He's been up to that ever since re: Daniel.
It would have been better if he just came out and argued for the doctrine rather than trying to "look, Christians and JWs both believe Jesus existed! gotquestions". But no.
-
Like trying to put socks on a rooster :-\
-
Heb 9:27
It's appointed unto man once to die but AFTER this the judgement
-
Legalism is a great tool for controlling the unlearned but indoctrinated
Yes and no. I mean, Judaism required universal literacy because everyone was obligated to study the law, and know the law, and teach it to their children. So Jews in the ancient world had a very high literacy rate. The only other civilization at the time with similar level of literacy was the Greeks.
-
He was attempting to push "Investigative Judgment", but he was trying to do it by misconstruing "judgment" / by equivocating over the term. Adventists posit 1 Peter 4:17 as one of the primary Scripture "evidences" for the doctrine. The doctrine itself is asinine (seriously, if you haven't read up on it before...), not least of all the bizarre temporal framing, i.e., Jesus had to start his judgment in October 1844 to have made His judgments before His return -- and He's been up to that ever since re: Daniel.
It would have been better if he just came out and argued for the doctrine rather than trying to "look, Christians and JWs both believe Jesus existed! gotquestions". But no.
I seem to remember at least one lengthy discussion on the old .org site concerning SDA and it's more outstanding teachings, not to mention it's obscure beginnings. Talks went on seemingly forever.
Many consider this denomination a valid member of orthodoxy, while many of us don''t.
A worthy topic for discussion, no doubt.
-
It brings up a truism I have begun stating with increasing frequency as the proliferation of aberrant theology spreads like a mold on an old lump of cheese…
“Those who are saved are saved in spite of our theology, not because of it”
-
I've been considering this more seriously, in part to avoid the neurotic descent of Kierkegaard's impossible standard:
In the 48 years since I was first ambushed by Jesus in a little chapel in the Allegheny Mountains of Western Pennsylvania, and in literally the thousands of hours of prayer, meditation, silence and solitude over those years, I am now utterly convinced that on Judgment Day, the Lord Jesus is going to ask each of us one question, and only one question:
Did you believe that I loved you? That I desired you? That I waited for you day after day? That I longed to hear the sound of your voice?
The real believers there will answer, “Yes, Jesus, I believed in your love, and I tried to shape my life as a response to it.”
But many of us who are so faithful in our ministry, in our practice, in our churchgoing are going to have to reply, “Well, frankly, no, sir. I mean, I never really believed it. I mean, I heard a wonderful lot of wonderful sermons and teachings about it. In fact, I gave quite a few myself. But I always thought that was just a way of speaking, a kindly lie, some Christian’s pious pat on the back to cheer me on.”
And there’s the difference between the real believers and the nominal Christians that abound in our churches across the land.
No one can measure like a believer the depth and the intensity of God’s love. But at the same time, no one can measure like a believer the effectiveness of our gloom, pessimism, low self-esteem, self-hatred and despair that block God’s way to us.
Do you see why it is so important to lay hold of this basic truth of our faith? Because you’re only going to be as big as your own concept of God.
Remember the famous line of the French philosopher Pascal: “God made man in his own image, and man returned the compliment.” We often make God in our own image. He has to be as fussy, rude, narrow-minded, legalistic, judgmental, unforgiving and unloving as we are.
In the past couple of three years, I have preached the Gospel to the financial community on Wall Street in New York City, the airmen and women with the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, a thousand physicians in [unclear], and I’ve been in churches in Bangor, Maine; Miami; Chicago; St. Louis; Seattle; San Diego.
And, honest to God, the God of so many Christians I meet is a God who is too small for me, because he is not the God of the Word. He is not the God revealed in Jesus Christ, who this moment comes right to your seat and says:
“I have a word for you. I know your whole life story. I know every skeleton in your closet. I know every moment of sin, shame, dishonesty and degraded love that has darkened your past. Right now, I know your shallow faith, your feeble prayer life, your inconsistent discipleship.
And my word is this:
I dare you to trust that I love you just as you are, and not as you should be, because you’re never going to be as you should be.
-
You're still a youngster... wait till you are in your 60's fighting the same old fights, carrying the same old burdens...
Manning's edict becomes more truerish every day...
Thanks for reminding me of that quote...
-
“Those who are saved are saved in spite of our theology, not because of it”
It is said that a visitor once came to the home of Nobel Prize–winning physicist Niels Bohr and, having noticed a horseshoe hung above the entrance, asked incredulously if the professor believed horseshoes brought good luck. “No,” Bohr replied, “but I am told that they bring luck even to those who do not believe in them.”
-
This particular thread and associated discussions serving as a sort of wake-up call to scriptually re-establish the love of God and wake up the joy of salvation in Christ.
These dark doctrines conspire to paint an obscure caracature of God and a frightful picture of an iffy "unsecure" salvation based on human works.
Got to get back to workdesk.
Convicted in Cal.
-
Over the years I've seen forum users come to saving faith in Christ through the application of contextual scriptures.
Heartening!