Understanding what Christ is doing in Heaven at this time.

[Reddogs]

Lets look at 1 Peter 4:17 and see what the context is and what the Bible has supporting text that gives us better understanding.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The Bible is pretty clear on the phrase "judgment must begin at the house of God" that comes from 1 Peter 4:17 in the Bible. It means God starts His process of judgement with His own believers or the church before dealing with the wicked or rest of the world that refuses to obey God and does not believe. We see what will happen at the Second Coming which is laid out by Christ Himself.
Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The saints cannot simply go to heaven without a determination of their standing. Man is not immortal of self and doesnt go to straight to heaven or hell at death, and there is not any kind of judgment immediately after death. We see that it begins with the believers as the Bible declares in1 Peter 4:17, the judgment begins first for the house of God. And we find much more..

1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

And we see this..
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

And we find what shows who..

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God and it begins at the house of God or believers, so all believers must repent and be converted, not just say they are... as we see in Acts 3.18-19
But those things, which God foretold by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he has so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

And you cant just claim ignorance when we come to the judgement seat of Christ, as the Bible makes clear.

Acts 17:30-31
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent: Because he has appointed a day, So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom he has ordained; He has given assurance of this to all men, by raising him from the dead.

Romans 2:15-16
. . .Which show the work of the law written in their hearts,...In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

The text, and context and supporting text clearly indicts that all will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, those who are judged worthy by Christ are covered with the blood of the lamb, have His robe of righteousness, and will be separated, the sheep from the goats/the saints from the wicked at the Second Coming of Christ when He comes to take His saints to heaven where He has prepare a place for them.

[RabbiKnife]

Not playing the eisegetical lecture game.   

This is like geometry.   You have to show your work.

Who was the audience of the epistle and why was it written?  Please don’t drag once verse out as a prooftext

[Athanasius]

Lets look at 1 Peter 4:17 and see what the context is and what the Bible has supporting text that gives us better understanding.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The Bible is pretty clear on the phrase "judgment must begin at the house of God" that comes from 1 Peter 4:17 in the Bible. It means God starts His process of judgement with His own believers or the church before dealing with the wicked or rest of the world that refuses to obey God and does not believe. We see what will happen at the Second Coming which is laid out by Christ Himself.

1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

You don't show context by immediately moving away from 1 Peter, and if we limit your post to your discussion of 1 Peter you end up with just this, which is still at the level of assertion.

For God to judge He must start judging? Obviously.

But you're not just arguing for that. The problem is that you're dancing around the thing you're really trying to argue you for. It's an embarrassing, nonsensical doctrine, and I wouldn't want to argue out in the open for it either.

[Reddogs]

Not playing the eisegetical lecture game.   

This is like geometry.   You have to show your work.

Who was the audience of the epistle and why was it written?  Please don’t drag once verse out as a prooftext

Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked. So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes. This connects to directly to Matthew 25:31-34
Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Which Christ Himself declares and explains to the disciples, in countless verses but I will just give one to keep it simple.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Now Christ has been given this as we see in
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

And we see it in Jude saying that Enoch has also prophesized what you can see confirms these text.
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So where does it get decided before He comes, well lets go first to the text showing that all will be judged, the sheep and the goats/saints and the wicked.
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

We see it says 'we all shall all' and 'we must all' so that is clear, then we must look to see where and I will give a text for context in Revelation.
Revelation 4:1-2
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Notice the place is in heaven and a throne is set and the is one sitting on the throne, now compare to this courtroom scene in Daniel where judgement is being done.
Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Now I am going to stop there, and see if Rabbi is ok up to this point as he asks me to 'show your work.'

[IMINXTC]

Seems we've dropped our bucket down a dry well.

[RabbiKnife]

No, now you are engaging in the same old junk again with you grabbing a smorgasbord of verses as proof texts of the conclusion you are trying to get to. 

The text in Peter says nothing about sheep and goats or end times

1 Peter 4 is focused on the fact that believers should expect to suffer just as Jesus suffered.  Jesus suffered in the flesh.  Believers should expect to suffer in the flesh.  Peter then tells the reader to stop living like sinful Gentiles and to live holy lives as good stewards of the grace of God so that God is glorified.

The exhortation is to rejoice when persecuted, but to not be stupid and suffer for sinful behavior.

The time for judgment is now, not to judgment at the end of the age.

The time perspective for judgment is the same as for the exhortation to righteous living…. Now, not some day by and by.

The passage simply says nothing about end times and it is simply improper to try to force the passage into an end of time judgment or an end of time judgment into the passage.

[RabbiKnife]

And you didnt show any work

You showed continued solutions in search of a problem

[Athanasius]

Not playing the eisegetical lecture game.   

This is like geometry.   You have to show your work.

Who was the audience of the epistle and why was it written?  Please don’t drag once verse out as a prooftext

Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked. So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes. This connects to directly to Matthew 25:31-34
Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Which Christ Himself declares and explains to the disciples, in countless verses but I will just give one to keep it simple.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Now Christ has been given this as we see in
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

And we see it in Jude saying that Enoch has also prophesized what you can see confirms these text.
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So where does it get decided before He comes, well lets go first to the text showing that all will be judged, the sheep and the goats/saints and the wicked.
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

We see it says 'we all shall all' and 'we must all' so that is clear, then we must look to see where and I will give a text for context in Revelation.
Revelation 4:1-2
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Notice the place is in heaven and a throne is set and the is one sitting on the throne, now compare to this courtroom scene in Daniel where judgement is being done.
Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Now I am going to stop there, and see if Rabbi is ok up to this point as he asks me to 'show your work.'

He's asked to 'show your work' as you're yet to show your work. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A by appealing to X other Scripture that you argue show A, then you should be able to show A from 1 Peter alone. But what you're doing is proof-texting at best, or abusing Scripture at worst. The latter in that you're forcing a reading of 1 Peter that isn't natural to 1 Peter. The Bible is its own interpreter? Great! But that means you'd show 'Matthew says A and 1 Peter says A'. Not 'Matthew says A therefore 1 Peter is saying A'.

Because again, you immediately move away from 1 Peter 4:17 to talk about that absurd doctrine you're avoiding naming. You hide it there in your appeal to Matthew 25 -- "So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes". You don't mean that he'll separate the two when He comes, but He'll have separated the two by the time He's come. Why don't you just come out and say it? It's going to be October soon anyway.

[Reddogs]

No, now you are engaging in the same old junk again with you grabbing a smorgasbord of verses as proof texts of the conclusion you are trying to get to. 

The text in Peter says nothing about sheep and goats or end times

1 Peter 4 is focused on the fact that believers should expect to suffer just as Jesus suffered.  Jesus suffered in the flesh.  Believers should expect to suffer in the flesh.  Peter then tells the reader to stop living like sinful Gentiles and to live holy lives as good stewards of the grace of God so that God is glorified.

The exhortation is to rejoice when persecuted, but to not be stupid and suffer for sinful behavior.

The time for judgment is now, not to judgment at the end of the age.

The time perspective for judgment is the same as for the exhortation to righteous living…. Now, not some day by and by.

The passage simply says nothing about end times and it is simply improper to try to force the passage into an end of time judgment or an end of time judgment into the passage.

Well, if I try to go beyond one point, immediately..... https://bibleforums.us/index.php?topic=783.msg16026;topicseen#new

[RabbiKnife]

You have an absurd hermaneutic and methodology

The sad part is that I don’t think you know that

[Reddogs]

And you didnt show any work

You showed continued solutions in search of a problem

The problem is man can claim they follow God, but He is the one that will judge which is the solution we are shown in the text.

[RabbiKnife]

And you didnt show any work

You showed continued solutions in search of a problem

The problem is man can claim they follow God, but He is the one that will judge which is the solution we are shown in the text.

Objection.  Relevance. Speculation.  Assumes facts not in evidence.  Gobbledygook.

[Reddogs]

Not playing the eisegetical lecture game.   

This is like geometry.   You have to show your work.

Who was the audience of the epistle and why was it written?  Please don’t drag once verse out as a prooftext

Ok, we see that all are included in 1 Peter 4:17, the 'us' refers to the saints while the rest or 'that obey not the gospel of God' are the wicked. So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes. This connects to directly to Matthew 25:31-34
Matthew 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Which Christ Himself declares and explains to the disciples, in countless verses but I will just give one to keep it simple.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Now Christ has been given this as we see in
John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

And we see it in Jude saying that Enoch has also prophesized what you can see confirms these text.
Jude 1:14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

So where does it get decided before He comes, well lets go first to the text showing that all will be judged, the sheep and the goats/saints and the wicked.
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Cor. 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to what he has done, whether it be good or bad.

We see it says 'we all shall all' and 'we must all' so that is clear, then we must look to see where and I will give a text for context in Revelation.
Revelation 4:1-2
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Notice the place is in heaven and a throne is set and the is one sitting on the throne, now compare to this courtroom scene in Daniel where judgement is being done.
Daniel 7:9-10
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Now I am going to stop there, and see if Rabbi is ok up to this point as he asks me to 'show your work.'

He's asked to 'show your work' as you're yet to show your work. If you think 1 Peter 4 is saying A by appealing to X other Scripture that you argue show A, then you should be able to show A from 1 Peter alone. But what you're doing is proof-texting at best, or abusing Scripture at worst. The latter in that you're forcing a reading of 1 Peter that isn't natural to 1 Peter. The Bible is its own interpreter? Great! But that means you'd show 'Matthew says A and 1 Peter says A'. Not 'Matthew says A therefore 1 Peter is saying A'.

Because again, you immediately move away from 1 Peter 4:17 to talk about that absurd doctrine you're avoiding naming. You hide it there in your appeal to Matthew 25 -- "So both the sheep and the goats have to be decided as Christ has to separate when He comes". You don't mean that he'll separate the two when He comes, but He'll have separated the two by the time He's come. Why don't you just come out and say it? It's going to be October soon anyway.

Well, you cannot reduce God or the deep things of God to just an equation. 1 + 1 will not come out when it comes to Creation, to say nothing of the Trinity, or even the Flood. Belief is not following what some say to do, 3 Hail Marys and 1 Our father takes care of everything. Even Nicodemus had trouble understanding the truth that Christ was telling him. Truth is more than just adding things in a literal way, you have to consider the Holy Spirit and its work, what cannot be proven by this type of 'equation' is guided by something we cant see or touch which brings us to undeniable truth. You have the sin of the saints, Christ must judge if they have repented from them and truly been converted, He does it openly so all can see God is just and applies His blood for their redemption, and everyone is judged and either receive eternal life or eternal death. The Bible is clear...

[RabbiKnife]

The Bible is clear.

Christians are not condemned or judged for our sins, which are already forgiven.

The only judgment Christians receive is as to their stewardship and their good works.

Or do you believe if I, as a Christian, lose my temper just before I get killed by a bus and scream “f*ck” , or if I’m lusting after a woman I just saw in the grocery store and don’t repent before I have a heart attack and die, that I go to hell?”

Saved by faith, kept by works.

Got it

[Athanasius]

Well, you cannot reduce God or the deep things of God to just an equation. 1 + 1 will not come out when it comes to Creation, to say nothing of the Trinity, or even the Flood. Belief is not following what some say to do, 3 Hail Marys and 1 Our father takes care of everything. Even Nicodemus had trouble understanding the truth that Christ was telling him. Truth is more than just adding things in a literal way, you have to consider the Holy Spirit and its work, what cannot be proven by this type of 'equation' is guided by something we cant see or touch which brings us to undeniable truth. You have the sin of the saints, Christ must judge if they have repented from them and truly been converted, He does it openly so all can see God is just and applies His blood for their redemption, and everyone is judged and either receive eternal life or eternal death. The Bible is clear...

Did you want to try actually replying to what I said, Kierkegaard?