BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: Aijalon on February 28, 2022, 11:52:01 PM
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not to say a bias... please provide a short introduction to your Eschatological faction, and what - to you - makes your viewpoint the best one from an apologetics standpoint. In your explanation, please attempt to align Daniel, The Olivet Discourse, and Revelation.
My own view is the Historicist. I believe it is the strongest view for several reasons, one of which is that the plain reading of the text tells us the things would happen quickly
A short summary:
1) Daniel
in the 70 years of exile under Babylon, we see correlation to the end times beast and end times Babylon.
Daniel Ch 7's 4th beast is alive today, and is the same beast as the Revelation 13 Beast from the sea.
... Daniel 7's proud horn that uproots 3 horns is apostate Israel. The uprooted horns are middle eastern neighbors & Palestinians
.... Daniel Ch 8 - 12 prophecies are under the Persian rule and concern the restoration and fall of old covenant Israel.
.... the little horn is Herod the Great. The 2800 evenings/mornings are months until the birth of Christ
2) Olivet Discourse.
70AD fulfilled the Abomination of Desolation of Daniel 9 and the initiation of the Great (big) Tribulation.
3) Revelation.
The 7 churches are 7 historical periods of the new covenant church backsliding in different ways
The 4 Horsemen of Revelation are 4 military and economic systems that plague the earth from Rome until today.
The 7 trumpets are the great falling away described by Paul
....The woman of Revelation 12 is the Church (the 12 stars are Israel, the sun is the Gospel)
.... The Beasts of Revelation 13 are the same as represented in Daniel 7.
.... The mark of the Beast represents the mental reckoning of those who think like the best.
... the beheading is an execution from buying and selling in the market of ideas and government of the beast (it represents cancel culture)
... Revelation is still actively unfolding.
So that's the basic gist... please provide a short synopsis/structure of your own eschatology for the edification of the boards!
Blessings!
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Well A., I see you've borrowed from a few different schools of thought, as I have. I do understand that you primarily identify as an historicist. I primarily identify as a futurist, but many have called me something else. ;) I don't really align completely with any single school, since I've borrowed freely from any of them.
Some call me a Preterist because I see the Olivet Discourse primarily about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army who desolated Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. And I see Christ identifying as a "coming of God" in the act of judgment in 70 AD, as opposed to the 2nd Coming, which I still believe is future.
I believe that Dan 7 teaches the coming of the Son of Man from the clouds of heaven at the destruction of the Little Horn, the Antichrist. And so, I'm Postribulational.
I believe Dan 8 and 11 talks a lot about Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist. I believe Dan 7 has 3.5 years attached to the Reign of Antichrist, and Dan 12 has 1290 days attached to the Reign of Antiochus. I keep these two men separated.
The Great Tribulation I identify not as the Reign of Antichrist, but rather, as the Jewish Diaspora of the NT period. What does all this make me? I don't know? A Partial Futurist? ;)
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I have a desperately complex set of eschatological beliefs that are somewhat confusing in their hierarchical structure vis-a-vis this-or-that faction. But if I were to simplify my position it would be, with particular reference to Daniel, The Olivet Discourse, and Revelation, that I have other things to worry about and so with a general awareness of the different positions, others take I'll focus my efforts on today and let tomorrow worry about itself (as in fact, tomorrow, eschatologically speaking, is rooted in today).
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It’s easier to say what I am not.
I am not dispensationalist.
I do not believe in newspaper eschatology
I do not believe in postmillenialism
I believe the churches to whom The Apocalypse was written understood every but if it perfectly
I believe that the return of Christ is imminent
I believe, as Peter, Paul, and John believed every morning could be the day
Maranatha should be our daily cry
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It’s easier to say what I am not.
I am not dispensationalist.
I do not believe in newspaper eschatology
I do not believe in postmillenialism
I believe the churches to whom The Apocalypse was written understood every but if it perfectly
I believe that the return of Christ is imminent
I believe, as Peter, Paul, and John believed every morning could be the day
Maranatha should be our daily cry
Funny, this is a true story. I must've been inspired at the time, but way back in the 70s I shared with this lady friend of mine my belief that biblical prophecy is happening today--indeed that God is in all world events in some way.
As if to prove it to her, a newspaper had arrived, and I told her: "Let's look at the newspapers, and I'll show you how world events are fitting into Bible Prophecy." As God is my witness, the headlines read something like: "Are Bible Prophecies Coming True: Earthquakes, Famines, Wars?" I don't remember the exact title, but I do remember the shock upon reading this! ;)
I do know what you mean by your opposition to "Newspaper Prophecy," and I heartily agree. But this was so unusual I had to share it! ;)
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Christ could tarry for a thousand years. Nothing in todays world that could be designated as specifically Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and nothing here to predict that future date.
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Christ could tarry for a thousand years. Nothing in todays world that could be designated as specifically Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and nothing here to predict that future date.
Can't say I agree with that. It is true that God did not make it so that we could predict events throughout history. Science is predictable, but not Man! ;)
However, everything I read in the Bible indicates God has a plan, and is meticulous in meeting His deadlines. For example, He kept Israel exactly 40 years in the Wilderness before letting them inherit Canaan.
He kept Israel exactly 70 years in Babylon before letting the exiles return. And He also designated 70 Weeks of years from the decree to restore Jerusalem until the coming of Messiah.
If you look at the time from Abraham to Messiah we have about 2000 years. And now, from Christ to the evangelization of the world has been about 2000 years. Is this a coincidence? Is this just random? I don't think so.
Some people go so far as to indulge the Millennial Day Theory. As there were 6 days in Creation and a 7th rest day, so there have been 6000 years of Human History, with the Millennium being reserved for rest.
But I do think you're right that our job is not to try to anticipate these things, but only to deal with the realities when they result.
I began to study history back in the mid-70s with a mind to see if any of this is anticipated in the Scriptures. Indeed the rise of Roman Civilization, becoming European Civilization, is exactly what Daniel predicted.
So we are not to try to read Ouija boards or do tarot cards--we're supposed to trust in an intelligent Creator whose design is shown not just in creation but also in history. To not see Him in our lives is to fail to have faith. And it sounds to me like you do have faith?
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Christ could tarry for a thousand years. Nothing in todays world that could be designated as specifically Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and nothing here to predict that future date.
Can't say I agree with that. It is true that God did not make it so that we could predict events throughout history.
You disagree but then you sort of agree.
However, everything I read in the Bible indicates God has a plan, and is meticulous in meeting His deadlines. For example, He kept Israel exactly 40 years in the Wilderness before letting them inherit Canaan.
He kept Israel exactly 70 years in Babylon before letting the exiles return. And He also designated 70 Weeks of years from the decree to restore Jerusalem until the coming of Messiah.
If you look at the time from Abraham to Messiah we have about 2000 years. And now, from Christ to the evangelization of the world has been about 2000 years. Is this a coincidence? Is this just random? I don't think so.
Some people go so far as to indulge the Millennial Day Theory. As there were 6 days in Creation and a 7th rest day, so there have been 6000 years of Human History, with the Millennium being reserved for rest.
So far, you haven't demonstrated that direct prophecies are being fulfilled today. None, to be exact. And by extension, you have no way of calculating the time of Christ's return.
I began to study history back in the mid-70s with a mind to see if any of this is anticipated in the Scriptures. Indeed the rise of Roman Civilization, becoming European Civilization, is exactly what Daniel predicted.
But this has no bearing on prophecies being fulfilled today.
So w
We are not to try to read Ouija boards or do tarot cards--we're supposed to trust in an intelligent Creator whose design is shown not just in creation but also in history.
Scripture is sufficient for believers, and, so far, we have no specific prophecies being fulfilled today and nothing that would allow us to predict when Christ will return.
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Where does the rebirth of the modern state of Israel fit in to all this? It was directly prophesized more than 2500 years ago and is (or at least, is in the process of) being literally fulfilled.
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Not everyone believes the current state of Israel fits that of prophecy. When all Jews are called home that will be different.
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Where does the rebirth of the modern state of Israel fit in to all this? It was directly prophesized more than 2500 years ago and is (or at least, is in the process of) being literally fulfilled.
The modern state is an apostate, backslidden state. It does not match the prophecy of a rebirth of Israel. This is more for a different thread on the specifics of why, but ultimately, IT'S A TRICK. The crux is this, God said he would renew Israel's heart, they have to repent and worship JESUS and only then is the covenant healed. They must come into NEW covenant faith, otherwise, they remain in exile. And in exile they still are. The land is occupied by secularists. God's dominion is no democracy.
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Christ could tarry for a thousand years. Nothing in todays world that could be designated as specifically Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and nothing here to predict that future date.
Can't say I agree with that. It is true that God did not make it so that we could predict events throughout history.
You disagree but then you sort of agree.
However, everything I read in the Bible indicates God has a plan, and is meticulous in meeting His deadlines. For example, He kept Israel exactly 40 years in the Wilderness before letting them inherit Canaan.
He kept Israel exactly 70 years in Babylon before letting the exiles return. And He also designated 70 Weeks of years from the decree to restore Jerusalem until the coming of Messiah.
If you look at the time from Abraham to Messiah we have about 2000 years. And now, from Christ to the evangelization of the world has been about 2000 years. Is this a coincidence? Is this just random? I don't think so.
Some people go so far as to indulge the Millennial Day Theory. As there were 6 days in Creation and a 7th rest day, so there have been 6000 years of Human History, with the Millennium being reserved for rest.
So far, you haven't demonstrated that direct prophecies are being fulfilled today. None, to be exact. And by extension, you have no way of calculating the time of Christ's return.
I began to study history back in the mid-70s with a mind to see if any of this is anticipated in the Scriptures. Indeed the rise of Roman Civilization, becoming European Civilization, is exactly what Daniel predicted.
But this has no bearing on prophecies being fulfilled today.
So w
We are not to try to read Ouija boards or do tarot cards--we're supposed to trust in an intelligent Creator whose design is shown not just in creation but also in history.
Scripture is sufficient for believers, and, so far, we have no specific prophecies being fulfilled today and nothing that would allow us to predict when Christ will return.
Yes, let me repeat: I partly agree with you and partly don't. I agree with the unpredictability of times and seasons, but believe that specific prophecies are being fulfilled today as we see them develop.
This is not a contradiction. You say I gave "zero" evidence of prophecies today. But I did. I informed you that the rise of European Civilization was predicted and is still taking place today.
I did not get into any detail because you began with the predicate that there exists none, and I doubt you're interested, then, in any evidence that contradicts your supposed belief. If you are more interested in exactly how European Civilization is today fulfilling Daniel's prophecies, you should ask, instead of saying I have "zero" evidence.
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Like many retrospectives and efforts to find evidence of fulfilled prophecy, we can always find data that we propose is evidence, but data is highly susceptible if being interpreted in light of what we want it to mean
That doesn’t mean that a prophesy has not been fulfilled or that a historical fact is not evidence of fulfilled prophecy, but interpretation of historical events are always subject to misinterpretation or misapplication
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Like many retrospectives and efforts to find evidence of fulfilled prophecy, we can always find data that we propose is evidence, but data is highly susceptible if being interpreted in light of what we want it to mean
That doesn’t mean that a prophesy has not been fulfilled or that a historical fact is not evidence of fulfilled prophecy, but interpretation of historical events are always subject to misinterpretation or misapplication
Yes, but that's virtually a truism. When we dig into the specifics, the obvious nature of fulfilled prophecy is there, such as the restoration of Israel, the rise of the Roman Empire, the death of Christ, the evangelization of the Gospel to all nations, the ascendancy of the "mountain of the house of the Lord," ie Christianity, etc.
Obviously, other religions, such as Judaism, will disagree. But I'm stating things as I see them, and not trying to please every religion and all people.
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Where does the rebirth of the modern state of Israel fit in to all this? It was directly prophesized more than 2500 years ago and is (or at least, is in the process of) being literally fulfilled.
The modern state is an apostate, backslidden state. It does not match the prophecy of a rebirth of Israel. This is more for a different thread on the specifics of why, but ultimately, IT'S A TRICK. The crux is this, God said he would renew Israel's heart, they have to repent and worship JESUS and only then is the covenant healed. They must come into NEW covenant faith, otherwise, they remain in exile. And in exile they still are. The land is occupied by secularists. God's dominion is no democracy.
This is just a gentle reminder to speak carefully about Israel, Judaism, and Jews. If you're about to say that the modern state of Israel is a satanic trick then I suggest you think up something else to write, like, "that's a good point Fenris, maybe I've misunderstood the prophetic utterances in Scripture" or "Modern-day Israel is secular, and thus, I don't believe it satisfies the fulfilment of X, Y, Z prophecy".
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Like many retrospectives and efforts to find evidence of fulfilled prophecy, we can always find data that we propose is evidence, but data is highly susceptible if being interpreted in light of what we want it to mean
That doesn’t mean that a prophesy has not been fulfilled or that a historical fact is not evidence of fulfilled prophecy, but interpretation of historical events are always subject to misinterpretation or misapplication
Yes, but that's virtually a truism. When we dig into the specifics, the obvious nature of fulfilled prophecy is there, such as the restoration of Israel, the rise of the Roman Empire, the death of Christ, the evangelization of the Gospel to all nations, the ascendancy of the "mountain of the house of the Lord," ie Christianity, etc.
Obviously, other religions, such as Judaism, will disagree. But I'm stating things as I see them, and not trying to please every religion and all people.
Using words like "obvious nature" demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about. Hindsight bias is a danger to all.
See Harold Camping.
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Not everyone believes the current state of Israel fits that of prophecy.
But some people do, I think.
When all Jews are called home that will be different.
Fair enough. :)
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The modern state is an apostate, backslidden state. It does not match the prophecy of a rebirth of Israel.
It certainly matches at least some of the criteria surely. It is pretty fantastic that a people exiled for some 20 centuries all return to their ancestral homeland and are speaking the same language and reading the same holy books from the same faith as 3,000 years ago. It's a unique event in history, certainly.
This is more for a different thread on the specifics of why, but ultimately, IT'S A TRICK. The crux is this, God said he would renew Israel's heart,
Well. it depends which book one reads. Most of the prophets describe repentance before the end of exile. So that is certainly a thing. On the other hand, Ezekiel specifically says that God will bring the Jews out of exile, not because they deserve it, but for the sake of His name. So that's a thing too. For example, Ezekiel 36-
“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
“‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!
“‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.” Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’
And in exile they still are. The land is occupied by secularists.
One could look at it that way. Most Israelis do identify as secular. But. Here's the interesting thing. If you ask them if they believe in God, they will say yes. If you ask them if they keep the Sabbath and the biblical holidays, they will say yes. (Those days are national holidays after all). If you ask them if they keep kosher, or pray at the western wall, they will say yes. So the world "secular" doesn't seem to mean the same thing there.
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Like many retrospectives and efforts to find evidence of fulfilled prophecy, we can always find data that we propose is evidence, but data is highly susceptible if being interpreted in light of what we want it to mean
That doesn’t mean that a prophesy has not been fulfilled or that a historical fact is not evidence of fulfilled prophecy, but interpretation of historical events are always subject to misinterpretation or misapplication
Yes, but that's virtually a truism. When we dig into the specifics, the obvious nature of fulfilled prophecy is there, such as the restoration of Israel, the rise of the Roman Empire, the death of Christ, the evangelization of the Gospel to all nations, the ascendancy of the "mountain of the house of the Lord," ie Christianity, etc.
Obviously, other religions, such as Judaism, will disagree. But I'm stating things as I see them, and not trying to please every religion and all people.
Using words like "obvious nature" demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about. Hindsight bias is a danger to all.
See Harold Camping.
To cite failures is not to disprove the successes. There are *obvious* fulfillments of prophecy, regardless of whether it is hindsight or not. Prophecy isn't about our ability to prognosticate, but rather, about knowing that God is taking us in a planned direction.
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The modern state is an apostate, backslidden state. It does not match the prophecy of a rebirth of Israel.
It certainly matches at least some of the criteria surely. It is pretty fantastic that a people exiled for some 20 centuries all return to their ancestral homeland and are speaking the same language and reading the same holy books from the same faith as 3,000 years ago. It's a unique event in history, certainly.
Yes, when I flew into Israel in 1976 all by myself, I was excited because of what I saw God doing. As I took the bus from the airport to Jerusalem I was excited because I saw the desert turn into orchards. Life from the dead. God is active in history. This is the essence of prophecy. Thank you!
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Yes, when I flew into Israel in 1976 all by myself, I was excited because of what I saw God doing. As I took the bus from the airport to Jerusalem I was excited because I saw the desert turn into orchards. Life from the dead. God is active in history. This is the essence of prophecy. Thank you!
As per Ezekiel 36:
“‘...But you, mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, and I will cause many people to live on you—yes, all of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will increase the number of people and animals living on you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.
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Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist
Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?
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Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist
Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?
A historicist, a futurist, an idealist and a preterist walk into a bar. Well, they're walking into a bar, or they will walk into a bar? They would walk into a bar except the bar is symbolic. Because actually, they walked into a bar long ago, or only some of the bar?
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Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Historicism is a method of interpretation of biblical prophecies which associates symbols with historical persons, nations or events.
Futurism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets portions of the Book of Revelation, the Book of Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel as future events.
Idealism involves an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbolic.
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That’s fairly accurate but the variations, combinations, and interpretative methods are myriad.
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Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist
Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?
A historicist, a futurist, an idealist and a preterist walk into a bar. Well, they're walking into a bar, or they will walk into a bar? They would walk into a bar except the bar is symbolic. Because actually, they walked into a bar long ago, or only some of the bar?
It depends on whether the story was fully, partly, or just maybe inspired. Maybe God, whoever she is, may have just intended to pass on a moral lesson, and is saying the same kinds of things through horoscopes.
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Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist
Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?
I'm sure there are variations. Today, I look at these using the lens of the book of Revelation. Futurists would see the book of Revelation as speaking of a literal 3.5 years of Antichristian rule at the end of the present age, followed by the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.
I think of Futurists in our time as Premillennialists having 2 major schools. Dispensationalists focus on a distinct prophetic future for Israel.
Non-Dispensationalists, like myself, may or may not believe in Israel's prophetic future, though without any separation from the prophetic history of Christianity in general.
Historicists view Revelation as being fulfilled in any historical movement.
Preterists believe Revelation was largely fulfilled in the ancient Roman Empire.
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Yes, when I flew into Israel in 1976 all by myself, I was excited because of what I saw God doing. As I took the bus from the airport to Jerusalem I was excited because I saw the desert turn into orchards. Life from the dead. God is active in history. This is the essence of prophecy. Thank you!
As per Ezekiel 36:
“‘...But you, mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, and I will cause many people to live on you—yes, all of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. I will increase the number of people and animals living on you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.
Exactly. Many Christians, in particularly Dispensationalists, strongly support Israel because of their belief that Israel must rise again in God's purpose in history. I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I also believe that.
This is especially reinforced by the commonality between Judaism and Christianity. Despite their differences, there is more of a commonality between Judaism and Christianity than between Christianity and Islam.
And I also believe that one day the religious wall will come down between Jews and Christians, through the coming of Messiah himself. Christians actually believe that wall came down, in a preliminary sense, back at the start of Christianity.
But at the end of Israel's journey through desperation, that wall will quite literally come down, as I see it. And the evidence that Jews do not always separate themselves from Christians is indicated by fellows like yourself, who are not afraid to suffer some of the abuses of religious differentiation. We don't have to wait for Messiah to come--we can step up right now.
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Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist
Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?
A historicist, a futurist, an idealist and a preterist walk into a bar. Well, they're walking into a bar, or they will walk into a bar? They would walk into a bar except the bar is symbolic. Because actually, they walked into a bar long ago, or only some of the bar?
It depends on whether the story was fully, partly, or just maybe inspired. Maybe God, whoever she is, may have just intended to pass on a moral lesson, and is saying the same kinds of things through horoscopes.
Okay there, Bill, calm down.
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not to say a bias... please provide a short introduction to your Eschatological faction, and what - to you - makes your viewpoint the best one from an apologetics standpoint. In your explanation, please attempt to align Daniel, The Olivet Discourse, and Revelation.
My own view is the Historicist. I believe it is the strongest view for several reasons, one of which is that the plain reading of the text tells us the things would happen quickly
A short summary:
1) Daniel
in the 70 years of exile under Babylon, we see correlation to the end times beast and end times Babylon.
Daniel Ch 7's 4th beast is alive today, and is the same beast as the Revelation 13 Beast from the sea.
... Daniel 7's proud horn that uproots 3 horns is apostate Israel. The uprooted horns are middle eastern neighbors & Palestinians
.... Daniel Ch 8 - 12 prophecies are under the Persian rule and concern the restoration and fall of old covenant Israel.
.... the little horn is Herod the Great. The 2800 evenings/mornings are months until the birth of Christ
2) Olivet Discourse.
70AD fulfilled the Abomination of Desolation of Daniel 9 and the initiation of the Great (big) Tribulation.
3) Revelation.
The 7 churches are 7 historical periods of the new covenant church backsliding in different ways
The 4 Horsemen of Revelation are 4 military and economic systems that plague the earth from Rome until today.
The 7 trumpets are the great falling away described by Paul
....The woman of Revelation 12 is the Church (the 12 stars are Israel, the sun is the Gospel)
.... The Beasts of Revelation 13 are the same as represented in Daniel 7.
.... The mark of the Beast represents the mental reckoning of those who think like the best.
... the beheading is an execution from buying and selling in the market of ideas and government of the beast (it represents cancel culture)
... Revelation is still actively unfolding.
So that's the basic gist... please provide a short synopsis/structure of your own eschatology for the edification of the boards!
Blessings!
I don't know if there is a name or category for how I view the scriptures, but in a nutshell, I believe the participants may change, but the message of the stories remains the same.
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Thanks to the televangelist rage of the 70's, the rebirth of Israel had become the de-facto sign of the end of time, with the imminent rapture of the Church being the sensationalized headline of most Gospel messages.
As a newly formed political entity under the UN charter since 1948 and particularly following the six-day-war of 1967, many had interpreted the events as the fulfillment of prophecy and calculated the return of Christ to be either 70 years or 40 years from Israel's new beginning, depending on how one interprets "generation."
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In either event, “oops”
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Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist
Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?
A historicist, a futurist, an idealist and a preterist walk into a bar. Well, they're walking into a bar, or they will walk into a bar? They would walk into a bar except the bar is symbolic. Because actually, they walked into a bar long ago, or only some of the bar?
It depends on whether the story was fully, partly, or just maybe inspired. Maybe God, whoever she is, may have just intended to pass on a moral lesson, and is saying the same kinds of things through horoscopes.
Okay there, Bill, calm down.
Sorry, I was just jokingly alluding to real beliefs. Just because there are myriad beliefs in Christianity does not mean all beliefs are legitimate. However, a good pastor friend of mine struggled with the question: is God a He? Some women's liberationists defiantly claim God is a she, whereas some defiant Blacks claim God is Black.
These are irrelevant matters to the question of whether Scriptural prophecies can be viewed as clearly fulfilled. There will always be liberal theologians of the extreme skeptical kind who may believe that the prophecies about Jesus are hardly proof either of his messiahship or his divinity.
On the other hand, some of us find it nearly impossible to escape the many allusions to Jesus and his cross in the Jewish prophecies. So yes, it's always arguable. But that doesn't mean truth is unknowable.
Some will always reject modern prophetic fulfillment. Some, like myself, are suffering an avalanche of prophetic fulfillment--it's literally all around me! ;)
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Interesting thread
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Interesting thread
Let me welcome you with my not so common view.
1. In the Olivet discourse (Matt 24) Jesus is speaking to Israel, that generation, not us.
2. The great tribulation is on Israel, on that particular generation, it already happened. AD70.
3. What's is called "the rapture" among Christians already happened likely during the siege on Jerusalem around AD 67/68. Compare Luke 9:26-27 with 1 Thess 4:15-17, 1 Cor 15:51-52, Matt 24:40-41, see passages below.
4. All Jesus warnings such as - Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Even in Revelation, count the words "soon" and if John received his vision before AD70 soon really means soon and not 2000 years later.
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Luke 9:26 - For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
1 Thess 4:15 - For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:51 - Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
Matt 24:40-41 - Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
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Rapture is certainly not held by all contemporary Christians
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Interesting thread
Let me welcome you with my not so common view.
1. In the Olivet discourse (Matt 24) Jesus is speaking to Israel, that generation, not us.
2. The great tribulation is on Israel, on that particular generation, it already happened. AD70.
3. What's is called "the rapture" among Christians already happened likely during the siege on Jerusalem around AD 67/68. Compare Luke 9:26-27 with 1 Thess 4:15-17, 1 Cor 15:51-52, Matt 24:40-41, see passages below.
4. All Jesus warnings such as - Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Even in Revelation, count the words "soon" and if John received his vision before AD70 soon really means soon and not 2000 years later.
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Luke 9:26 - For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
1 Thess 4:15 - For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:51 - Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
Matt 24:40-41 - Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Posting with out studying your post deeply. i tend to agree
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Rapture is certainly not held by all contemporary Christians
Correct, I wasn't convinced either about the rapture to happen in our time or later. Putting it in the AD 30-70 time line it fits better.
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I don’t think there is any biblical support for a rapture event
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The title of this thread is what drew me to this forum. Scofield's version of dispensationalism just didnt set well in my later years. Other then dispensationalism would be interested in your thoughts, reasons, of why you believe as you do . Including your Bible back up. Part of what pulled me from dispensationalism was believing Jesus knows the difference between 'this and that'. The Olivet Discourse was told to 'that' generation.
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I am a biblical literalist. The Jewish people will be gathered back to the land of Israel, a third temple will be built in Jerusalem, a king from the line of David will sit on the throne, etc etc.
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Thanks for the reply. How literally do you take, understand, follow, etc., your Scriptures.
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Thanks for the reply. How literally do you take, understand, follow, etc., your Scriptures.
As I said elsewhere, it depends on the scripture in question. In terms of what the messianic era looks like? No better example than Ezekiel 37-
Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them—it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.’
So what do we have?
Jewish exiles gathered back to the land of Israel
One kingdom, not the kingdoms of Judah and Israel
No more idol worship
A king from the line of David on the throne
Scrupulous observance of the law
No further exiles
A rebuilt and permanent temple (described in great detail later in the book of Ezekiel)
The nations knowledge that God sanctifies Israel.
So in this case, pretty literally I guess?
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Fenris
As I said elsewhere, it depends on the scripture in question. In terms of what the messianic era looks like? No better example than Ezekiel 37-
Not any different then way too many Christians . ;)
Lets see if code works ....yes it works and i found the edit button
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Not any different then way too many Christians .
It's not for me to decide what Christians should believe.
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Exactly and vice versa . ( been around forums for over 25 years) My questions are not a warm up to an attack simply my attempt to understand. This forum is not titled under the banner of Christian it says Bible. To my understanding the Old Testament is as much Bible as the New. Pardon please, if those 2 labels are not the best.
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My questions are not a warm up to an attack simply my attempt to understand.
I never thought otherwise.
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not to say a bias... please provide a short introduction to your Eschatological faction, and what - to you - makes your viewpoint the best one from an apologetics standpoint. In your explanation, please attempt to align Daniel, The Olivet Discourse, and Revelation.
My own view is the Historicist. I believe it is the strongest view for several reasons, one of which is that the plain reading of the text tells us the things would happen quickly
A short summary:
1) Daniel
in the 70 years of exile under Babylon, we see correlation to the end times beast and end times Babylon.
Daniel Ch 7's 4th beast is alive today, and is the same beast as the Revelation 13 Beast from the sea.
... Daniel 7's proud horn that uproots 3 horns is apostate Israel. The uprooted horns are middle eastern neighbors & Palestinians
.... Daniel Ch 8 - 12 prophecies are under the Persian rule and concern the restoration and fall of old covenant Israel.
.... the little horn is Herod the Great. The 2800 evenings/mornings are months until the birth of Christ
2) Olivet Discourse.
70AD fulfilled the Abomination of Desolation of Daniel 9 and the initiation of the Great (big) Tribulation.
3) Revelation.
The 7 churches are 7 historical periods of the new covenant church backsliding in different ways
The 4 Horsemen of Revelation are 4 military and economic systems that plague the earth from Rome until today.
The 7 trumpets are the great falling away described by Paul
....The woman of Revelation 12 is the Church (the 12 stars are Israel, the sun is the Gospel)
.... The Beasts of Revelation 13 are the same as represented in Daniel 7.
.... The mark of the Beast represents the mental reckoning of those who think like the best.
... the beheading is an execution from buying and selling in the market of ideas and government of the beast (it represents cancel culture)
... Revelation is still actively unfolding.
So that's the basic gist... please provide a short synopsis/structure of your own eschatology for the edification of the boards!
Blessings!
Well, I would look over the accepted Historicist view, especially the Papacy as the Anti-Christ power. As for the Futurist and Preterist views, they were essentially derived from Jesuit writings, whose counter-reformation efforts were aimed at opposing this interpretation showing the Papal power and church of Rome met the characteristics and exact timeline given in the Bible Prophecy.
The Protestant Reformers John Wycliffe, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, Jonathan Edwards, and John Wesley held to this view of who was the Anti-Christ. Now here is the Historicist interpretation of Prophecy of Daniel's Seventy Weeks held by Jerome, Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, Matthew Henry, E.J. Young, E.B. Pusey, Philip Mauro, and many other Bible Scholars and those in the Reformation.
https://historicist.info/articles2/seventyweeks.htm
And here is a great illustration of the Timeline...
https://dispstudy.com/charts/daniels-seventy-weeks-historical-messianic/
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Necro posting no no no no.