what is your lens: Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist ... etc

[Aijalon]

not to say a bias... please provide a short introduction to your Eschatological faction, and what  - to you - makes your viewpoint the best one from an apologetics standpoint.   In your explanation, please attempt to align Daniel, The Olivet Discourse, and Revelation.

My own view is the Historicist.   I believe it is the strongest view for several reasons, one of which is that the plain reading of the text tells us the things would happen quickly

A short summary:

1) Daniel
in the 70 years of exile under Babylon, we see correlation to the end times beast and end times Babylon.
Daniel Ch 7's 4th beast is alive today, and is the same beast as the Revelation 13 Beast from the sea.
 ... Daniel 7's proud horn that uproots 3 horns is apostate Israel.  The uprooted horns are middle eastern neighbors & Palestinians
.... Daniel Ch 8 - 12 prophecies are under the Persian rule and concern the restoration and fall of old covenant Israel.
.... the little horn is Herod the Great.   The 2800 evenings/mornings are months until the birth of Christ

2) Olivet Discourse.
70AD fulfilled the Abomination of Desolation of Daniel 9 and the initiation of the Great (big) Tribulation.

3) Revelation.
The 7 churches are 7 historical periods of the new covenant church backsliding in different ways
The 4 Horsemen of Revelation are 4 military and economic systems that plague the earth from Rome until today.
The 7 trumpets are the great falling away described by Paul
....The woman of Revelation 12 is the Church (the 12 stars are Israel, the sun is the Gospel)
.... The Beasts of Revelation 13 are the same as represented in Daniel 7. 
.... The mark of the Beast represents the mental reckoning of those who think like the best.
... the beheading is an execution from buying and selling in the market of ideas and government of the beast (it represents cancel culture)
... Revelation is still actively unfolding.

So that's the basic gist... please provide a short synopsis/structure of your own eschatology for the edification of the boards!

Blessings!

[RandyPNW]

Well A., I see you've borrowed from a few different schools of thought, as I have. I do understand that you primarily identify as an historicist. I primarily identify as a futurist, but many have called me something else. I don't really align completely with any single school, since I've borrowed freely from any of them.

Some call me a Preterist because I see the Olivet Discourse primarily about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Abomination of Desolation was the Roman Army who desolated Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. And I see Christ identifying as a "coming of God" in the act of judgment in 70 AD, as opposed to the 2nd Coming, which I still believe is future.

I believe that Dan 7 teaches the coming of the Son of Man from the clouds of heaven at the destruction of the Little Horn, the Antichrist. And so, I'm Postribulational.

I believe Dan 8 and 11 talks a lot about Antiochus 4--not the Antichrist. I believe Dan 7 has 3.5 years attached to the Reign of Antichrist, and Dan 12 has 1290 days attached to the Reign of Antiochus. I keep these two men separated.

The Great Tribulation I identify not as the Reign of Antichrist, but rather, as the Jewish Diaspora of the NT period. What does all this make me? I don't know? A Partial Futurist?

[Athanasius]

I have a desperately complex set of eschatological beliefs that are somewhat confusing in their hierarchical structure vis-a-vis this-or-that faction. But if I were to simplify my position it would be, with particular reference to Daniel, The Olivet Discourse, and Revelation, that I have other things to worry about and so with a general awareness of the different positions, others take I'll focus my efforts on today and let tomorrow worry about itself (as in fact, tomorrow, eschatologically speaking, is rooted in today).

[RabbiKnife]

It’s easier to say what I am not.

I am not dispensationalist.
I do not believe in newspaper eschatology
I do not believe in postmillenialism

I believe the churches to whom The Apocalypse was written understood every but if it perfectly
I believe that the return of Christ is imminent
I believe, as Peter, Paul, and John believed every morning could be the day

Maranatha should be our daily cry

[RandyPNW]

It’s easier to say what I am not.

I am not dispensationalist.
I do not believe in newspaper eschatology
I do not believe in postmillenialism

I believe the churches to whom The Apocalypse was written understood every but if it perfectly
I believe that the return of Christ is imminent
I believe, as Peter, Paul, and John believed every morning could be the day

Maranatha should be our daily cry

Funny, this is a true story. I must've been inspired at the time, but way back in the 70s I shared with this lady friend of mine my belief that biblical prophecy is happening today--indeed that God is in all world events in some way.

As if to prove it to her, a newspaper had arrived, and I told her: "Let's look at the newspapers, and I'll show you how world events are fitting into Bible Prophecy." As God is my witness, the headlines read something like: "Are Bible Prophecies Coming True: Earthquakes, Famines, Wars?" I don't remember the exact title, but I do remember the shock upon reading this!

I do know what you mean by your opposition to "Newspaper Prophecy," and I heartily agree. But this was so unusual I had to share it!

[IMINXTC]

Christ could tarry for a thousand years. Nothing in todays world that could be designated as specifically Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and nothing here to predict that future date.

[RandyPNW]

Christ could tarry for a thousand years. Nothing in todays world that could be designated as specifically Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and nothing here to predict that future date.

Can't say I agree with that. It is true that God did not make it so that we could predict events throughout history. Science is predictable, but not Man!

However, everything I read in the Bible indicates God has a plan, and is meticulous in meeting His deadlines. For example, He kept Israel exactly 40 years in the Wilderness before letting them inherit Canaan.

He kept Israel exactly 70 years in Babylon before letting the exiles return. And He also designated 70 Weeks of years from the decree to restore Jerusalem until the coming of Messiah.

If you look at the time from Abraham to Messiah we have about 2000 years. And now, from Christ to the evangelization of the world has been about 2000 years. Is this a coincidence? Is this just random? I don't think so.

Some people go so far as to indulge the Millennial Day Theory. As there were 6 days in Creation and a 7th rest day, so there have been 6000 years of Human History, with the Millennium being reserved for rest.

But I do think you're right that our job is not to try to anticipate these things, but only to deal with the realities when they result.

I began to study history back in the mid-70s with a mind to see if any of this is anticipated in the Scriptures. Indeed the rise of Roman Civilization, becoming European Civilization, is exactly what Daniel predicted.

So we are not to try to read Ouija boards or do tarot cards--we're supposed to trust in an intelligent Creator whose design is shown not just in creation but also in history. To not see Him in our lives is to fail to have faith. And it sounds to me like you do have faith?

[IMINXTC]

Christ could tarry for a thousand years. Nothing in todays world that could be designated as specifically Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and nothing here to predict that future date.

Can't say I agree with that. It is true that God did not make it so that we could predict events throughout history.

You disagree but then you sort of agree.

However, everything I read in the Bible indicates God has a plan, and is meticulous in meeting His deadlines. For example, He kept Israel exactly 40 years in the Wilderness before letting them inherit Canaan.

He kept Israel exactly 70 years in Babylon before letting the exiles return. And He also designated 70 Weeks of years from the decree to restore Jerusalem until the coming of Messiah.

If you look at the time from Abraham to Messiah we have about 2000 years. And now, from Christ to the evangelization of the world has been about 2000 years. Is this a coincidence? Is this just random? I don't think so.

Some people go so far as to indulge the Millennial Day Theory. As there were 6 days in Creation and a 7th rest day, so there have been 6000 years of Human History, with the Millennium being reserved for rest.

So far, you haven't demonstrated that direct prophecies are being fulfilled today. None, to be exact. And by extension, you have no way of calculating the time of Christ's return.

I began to study history back in the mid-70s with a mind to see if any of this is anticipated in the Scriptures. Indeed the rise of Roman Civilization, becoming European Civilization, is exactly what Daniel predicted.

But this has no bearing on prophecies being fulfilled today.


So w

We are not to try to read Ouija boards or do tarot cards--we're supposed to trust in an intelligent Creator whose design is shown not just in creation but also in history.

Scripture is sufficient for believers, and, so far, we have no specific prophecies being fulfilled today and nothing that would allow us to predict when Christ will return.

[Fenris]

Where does the rebirth of the modern state of Israel fit in to all this? It was directly prophesized more than 2500 years ago and is (or at least, is in the process of) being literally fulfilled.

[IMINXTC]

Not everyone believes the current state of Israel fits that of prophecy. When all Jews are called home that will be different.

[Aijalon]

Where does the rebirth of the modern state of Israel fit in to all this? It was directly prophesized more than 2500 years ago and is (or at least, is in the process of) being literally fulfilled.

The modern state is an apostate, backslidden state.  It does not match the prophecy of a rebirth of Israel.   This is more for a different thread on the specifics of why, but ultimately, IT'S A TRICK.   The crux is this, God said he would renew Israel's heart, they have to repent and worship JESUS and only then is the covenant healed.  They must come into NEW covenant faith, otherwise, they remain in exile.  And in exile they still are.  The land is occupied by secularists.   God's dominion is no democracy. 

[RandyPNW]

Christ could tarry for a thousand years. Nothing in todays world that could be designated as specifically Bible prophecy being fulfilled, and nothing here to predict that future date.

Can't say I agree with that. It is true that God did not make it so that we could predict events throughout history.

You disagree but then you sort of agree.

However, everything I read in the Bible indicates God has a plan, and is meticulous in meeting His deadlines. For example, He kept Israel exactly 40 years in the Wilderness before letting them inherit Canaan.

He kept Israel exactly 70 years in Babylon before letting the exiles return. And He also designated 70 Weeks of years from the decree to restore Jerusalem until the coming of Messiah.

If you look at the time from Abraham to Messiah we have about 2000 years. And now, from Christ to the evangelization of the world has been about 2000 years. Is this a coincidence? Is this just random? I don't think so.

Some people go so far as to indulge the Millennial Day Theory. As there were 6 days in Creation and a 7th rest day, so there have been 6000 years of Human History, with the Millennium being reserved for rest.

So far, you haven't demonstrated that direct prophecies are being fulfilled today. None, to be exact. And by extension, you have no way of calculating the time of Christ's return.

I began to study history back in the mid-70s with a mind to see if any of this is anticipated in the Scriptures. Indeed the rise of Roman Civilization, becoming European Civilization, is exactly what Daniel predicted.

But this has no bearing on prophecies being fulfilled today.


So w

We are not to try to read Ouija boards or do tarot cards--we're supposed to trust in an intelligent Creator whose design is shown not just in creation but also in history.

Scripture is sufficient for believers, and, so far, we have no specific prophecies being fulfilled today and nothing that would allow us to predict when Christ will return.

Yes, let me repeat: I partly agree with you and partly don't. I agree with the unpredictability of times and seasons, but believe that specific prophecies are being fulfilled today as we see them develop.

This is not a contradiction. You say I gave "zero" evidence of prophecies today. But I did. I informed you that the rise of European Civilization was predicted and is still taking place today.

I did not get into any detail because you began with the predicate that there exists none, and I doubt you're interested, then, in any evidence that contradicts your supposed belief. If you are more interested in exactly how European Civilization is today fulfilling Daniel's prophecies, you should ask, instead of saying I have "zero" evidence.

[RabbiKnife]

Like many retrospectives and efforts to find evidence of fulfilled prophecy, we can always find data that we propose is evidence, but data is highly susceptible if being interpreted in light of what we want it to mean

That doesn’t mean that a prophesy has not been fulfilled or that a historical fact is not evidence of fulfilled prophecy, but interpretation of historical events are always subject to misinterpretation or misapplication

[RandyPNW]

Like many retrospectives and efforts to find evidence of fulfilled prophecy, we can always find data that we propose is evidence, but data is highly susceptible if being interpreted in light of what we want it to mean

That doesn’t mean that a prophesy has not been fulfilled or that a historical fact is not evidence of fulfilled prophecy, but interpretation of historical events are always subject to misinterpretation or misapplication

Yes, but that's virtually a truism. When we dig into the specifics, the obvious nature of fulfilled prophecy is there, such as the restoration of Israel, the rise of the Roman Empire, the death of Christ, the evangelization of the Gospel to all nations, the ascendancy of the "mountain of the house of the Lord," ie Christianity, etc.

Obviously, other religions, such as Judaism, will disagree. But I'm stating things as I see them, and not trying to please every religion and all people.

[Athanasius]

Where does the rebirth of the modern state of Israel fit in to all this? It was directly prophesized more than 2500 years ago and is (or at least, is in the process of) being literally fulfilled.

The modern state is an apostate, backslidden state.  It does not match the prophecy of a rebirth of Israel.   This is more for a different thread on the specifics of why, but ultimately, IT'S A TRICK.   The crux is this, God said he would renew Israel's heart, they have to repent and worship JESUS and only then is the covenant healed.  They must come into NEW covenant faith, otherwise, they remain in exile.  And in exile they still are.  The land is occupied by secularists.   God's dominion is no democracy. 

This is just a gentle reminder to speak carefully about Israel, Judaism, and Jews. If you're about to say that the modern state of Israel is a satanic trick then I suggest you think up something else to write, like, "that's a good point Fenris, maybe I've misunderstood the prophetic utterances in Scripture" or "Modern-day Israel is secular, and thus, I don't believe it satisfies the fulfilment of X, Y, Z prophecy".