what is your lens: Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist ... etc

[RabbiKnife]

Like many retrospectives and efforts to find evidence of fulfilled prophecy, we can always find data that we propose is evidence, but data is highly susceptible if being interpreted in light of what we want it to mean

That doesn’t mean that a prophesy has not been fulfilled or that a historical fact is not evidence of fulfilled prophecy, but interpretation of historical events are always subject to misinterpretation or misapplication

Yes, but that's virtually a truism. When we dig into the specifics, the obvious nature of fulfilled prophecy is there, such as the restoration of Israel, the rise of the Roman Empire, the death of Christ, the evangelization of the Gospel to all nations, the ascendancy of the "mountain of the house of the Lord," ie Christianity, etc.

Obviously, other religions, such as Judaism, will disagree. But I'm stating things as I see them, and not trying to please every religion and all people.

Using words like "obvious nature" demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about.  Hindsight bias is a danger to all.

See Harold Camping.

[Fenris]

Not everyone believes the current state of Israel fits that of prophecy.

But some people do, I think.

When all Jews are called home that will be different.

Fair enough. 

[Fenris]

The modern state is an apostate, backslidden state.  It does not match the prophecy of a rebirth of Israel. 

It certainly matches at least some of the criteria surely. It is pretty fantastic that a people exiled for some 20 centuries all return to their ancestral homeland and are speaking the same language and reading the same holy books from the same faith as 3,000 years ago. It's a unique event in history, certainly.

This is more for a different thread on the specifics of why, but ultimately, IT'S A TRICK.   The crux is this, God said he would renew Israel's heart,

Well. it depends which book one reads. Most of the prophets describe repentance before the end of exile. So that is certainly a thing. On the other hand, Ezekiel specifically says that God will bring the Jews out of exile, not because they deserve it, but for the sake of His name. So that's a thing too. For example, Ezekiel 36-

“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.  I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.  I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.  I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.  And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.  I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you.  I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.  Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

 “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. They will say, “This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited.”  Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the Lord have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the Lord have spoken, and I will do it.’

And in exile they still are.  The land is occupied by secularists.   

One could look at it that way. Most Israelis do identify as secular. But. Here's the interesting thing. If you ask them if they believe in God, they will say yes. If you ask them if they keep the Sabbath and the biblical holidays, they will say yes. (Those days are national holidays after all). If you ask them if they keep kosher, or pray at the western wall, they will say yes. So the world "secular" doesn't seem to mean the same thing there.

[RandyPNW]

Like many retrospectives and efforts to find evidence of fulfilled prophecy, we can always find data that we propose is evidence, but data is highly susceptible if being interpreted in light of what we want it to mean

That doesn’t mean that a prophesy has not been fulfilled or that a historical fact is not evidence of fulfilled prophecy, but interpretation of historical events are always subject to misinterpretation or misapplication

Yes, but that's virtually a truism. When we dig into the specifics, the obvious nature of fulfilled prophecy is there, such as the restoration of Israel, the rise of the Roman Empire, the death of Christ, the evangelization of the Gospel to all nations, the ascendancy of the "mountain of the house of the Lord," ie Christianity, etc.

Obviously, other religions, such as Judaism, will disagree. But I'm stating things as I see them, and not trying to please every religion and all people.

Using words like "obvious nature" demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about.  Hindsight bias is a danger to all.

See Harold Camping.

To cite failures is not to disprove the successes. There are *obvious* fulfillments of prophecy, regardless of whether it is hindsight or not. Prophecy isn't about our ability to prognosticate, but rather, about knowing that God is taking us in a planned direction.

[RandyPNW]

The modern state is an apostate, backslidden state.  It does not match the prophecy of a rebirth of Israel. 

It certainly matches at least some of the criteria surely. It is pretty fantastic that a people exiled for some 20 centuries all return to their ancestral homeland and are speaking the same language and reading the same holy books from the same faith as 3,000 years ago. It's a unique event in history, certainly.

Yes, when I flew into Israel in 1976 all by myself, I was excited because of what I saw God doing. As I took the bus from the airport to Jerusalem I was excited because I saw the desert turn into orchards. Life from the dead. God is active in history. This is the essence of prophecy. Thank you!

[Fenris]

Yes, when I flew into Israel in 1976 all by myself, I was excited because of what I saw God doing. As I took the bus from the airport to Jerusalem I was excited because I saw the desert turn into orchards. Life from the dead. God is active in history. This is the essence of prophecy. Thank you!

As per Ezekiel 36:

“‘...But you, mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown,  and I will cause many people to live on you—yes, all of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.  I will increase the number of people and animals living on you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord.  I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.

[Fenris]

Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist

Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?

[Athanasius]

Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist

Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?

A historicist, a futurist, an idealist and a preterist walk into a bar. Well, they're walking into a bar, or they will walk into a bar? They would walk into a bar except the bar is symbolic. Because actually, they walked into a bar long ago, or only some of the bar?

[Fenris]

Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Historicism is a method of interpretation of biblical prophecies which associates symbols with historical persons, nations or events.

Futurism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets portions of the Book of Revelation, the Book of Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel as future events.

Idealism involves an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as symbolic.

[RabbiKnife]

That’s fairly accurate but the variations, combinations, and interpretative methods are myriad.

[RandyPNW]

Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist

Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?

A historicist, a futurist, an idealist and a preterist walk into a bar. Well, they're walking into a bar, or they will walk into a bar? They would walk into a bar except the bar is symbolic. Because actually, they walked into a bar long ago, or only some of the bar?

It depends on whether the story was fully, partly, or just maybe inspired. Maybe God, whoever she is, may have just intended to pass on a moral lesson, and is saying the same kinds of things through horoscopes.

[RandyPNW]

Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist

Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?

I'm sure there are variations. Today, I look at these using the lens of the book of Revelation. Futurists would see the book of Revelation as speaking of a literal 3.5 years of Antichristian rule at the end of the present age, followed by the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

I think of Futurists in our time as Premillennialists having 2 major schools. Dispensationalists focus on a distinct prophetic future for Israel.

Non-Dispensationalists, like myself, may or may not believe in Israel's prophetic future, though without any separation from the prophetic history of Christianity in general.

Historicists view Revelation as being fulfilled in any historical movement.

Preterists believe Revelation was largely fulfilled in the ancient Roman Empire.

[RandyPNW]

Yes, when I flew into Israel in 1976 all by myself, I was excited because of what I saw God doing. As I took the bus from the airport to Jerusalem I was excited because I saw the desert turn into orchards. Life from the dead. God is active in history. This is the essence of prophecy. Thank you!

As per Ezekiel 36:

“‘...But you, mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown,  and I will cause many people to live on you—yes, all of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.  I will increase the number of people and animals living on you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord.  I will cause people, my people Israel, to live on you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.

Exactly. Many Christians, in particularly Dispensationalists, strongly support Israel because of their belief that Israel must rise again in God's purpose in history. I'm not a Dispensationalist, but I also believe that.

This is especially reinforced by the commonality between Judaism and Christianity. Despite their differences, there is more of a commonality between Judaism and Christianity than between Christianity and Islam.

And I also believe that one day the religious wall will come down between Jews and Christians, through the coming of Messiah himself. Christians actually believe that wall came down, in a preliminary sense, back at the start of Christianity.

But at the end of Israel's journey through desperation, that wall will quite literally come down, as I see it. And the evidence that Jews do not always separate themselves from Christians is indicated by fellows like yourself, who are not afraid to suffer some of the abuses of religious differentiation. We don't have to wait for Messiah to come--we can step up right now.

[Athanasius]

Historicist / Futurist / Idealist / Preterist

Is there a readers digest condensed version of what these things mean?

A historicist, a futurist, an idealist and a preterist walk into a bar. Well, they're walking into a bar, or they will walk into a bar? They would walk into a bar except the bar is symbolic. Because actually, they walked into a bar long ago, or only some of the bar?

It depends on whether the story was fully, partly, or just maybe inspired. Maybe God, whoever she is, may have just intended to pass on a moral lesson, and is saying the same kinds of things through horoscopes.

Okay there, Bill, calm down.

[journeyman]

not to say a bias... please provide a short introduction to your Eschatological faction, and what  - to you - makes your viewpoint the best one from an apologetics standpoint.   In your explanation, please attempt to align Daniel, The Olivet Discourse, and Revelation.

My own view is the Historicist.   I believe it is the strongest view for several reasons, one of which is that the plain reading of the text tells us the things would happen quickly

A short summary:

1) Daniel
in the 70 years of exile under Babylon, we see correlation to the end times beast and end times Babylon.
Daniel Ch 7's 4th beast is alive today, and is the same beast as the Revelation 13 Beast from the sea.
 ... Daniel 7's proud horn that uproots 3 horns is apostate Israel.  The uprooted horns are middle eastern neighbors & Palestinians
.... Daniel Ch 8 - 12 prophecies are under the Persian rule and concern the restoration and fall of old covenant Israel.
.... the little horn is Herod the Great.   The 2800 evenings/mornings are months until the birth of Christ

2) Olivet Discourse.
70AD fulfilled the Abomination of Desolation of Daniel 9 and the initiation of the Great (big) Tribulation.

3) Revelation.
The 7 churches are 7 historical periods of the new covenant church backsliding in different ways
The 4 Horsemen of Revelation are 4 military and economic systems that plague the earth from Rome until today.
The 7 trumpets are the great falling away described by Paul
....The woman of Revelation 12 is the Church (the 12 stars are Israel, the sun is the Gospel)
.... The Beasts of Revelation 13 are the same as represented in Daniel 7. 
.... The mark of the Beast represents the mental reckoning of those who think like the best.
... the beheading is an execution from buying and selling in the market of ideas and government of the beast (it represents cancel culture)
... Revelation is still actively unfolding.

So that's the basic gist... please provide a short synopsis/structure of your own eschatology for the edification of the boards!

Blessings!

I don't know if there is a name or category for how I view the scriptures, but in a nutshell, I believe the participants may change, but the message of the stories remains the same.