BibleForums Christian Message Board
Other Categories => Controversial Issues => Topic started by: HJ73 on July 09, 2021, 07:42:05 AM
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Many will continue to higher dimensions soon. Heaven you may call it. When that happens our compassion and awareness increase very much. My spiritual contact helped me to experience that and i cried and cried and cried. You really really do not want to have innocent animals death and suffering on your conscience then. It may not be "punished" but you may hurt yourself. Do not do that to yourself!!
Think like this: How will you feel about yourself if in heaven you understand that those animals are forever gone? If there is no chance to get them back and to say i am sorry. :-[ It may stop your spiritual progress because you may not be able to handle those emotions.
Instead spend the rest of your time here to preach compassion for animals. You will help others AND yourself. I think that is one big reason my contact is telling me to tell you since i used to hurt animals.
Try to think risk vs reward like a poker player. Meat eating means BIG spiritual risk and very little if any theoretical reward. Can you at least agree with that? Hope to see you in heaven.
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If eating the flesh of animals was a danger to our immortal souls, Leviticus wouldn't have made provisions for what to eat, and what not to eat.
Lv:11:1: And the Lord spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
Lv:11:2: Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
Lv:11:3: Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
Lv:11:4: Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Lv:11:5: And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Lv:11:6: And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Lv:11:7: And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
Lv:11:8: Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.
Lv:11:9: These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
Lv:11:10: And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
Lv:11:11: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
Lv:11:12: Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
Lv:11:13: And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
Lv:11:14: And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
Lv:11:15: Every raven after his kind;
Lv:11:16: And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
Lv:11:17: And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
Lv:11:18: And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
Lv:11:19: And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
Lv:11:20: All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you.
Lv:11:21: Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
Lv:11:22: Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
Lv:11:23: But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.
Lv:11:24: And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.
Lv:11:25: And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
Lv:11:26: The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
Lv:11:27: And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.
Lv:11:28: And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you.
Lv:11:29: These also shall be unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
Lv:11:30: And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
Lv:11:31: These are unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.
Lv:11:32: And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.
Lv:11:33: And every earthen vessel, whereinto any of them falleth, whatsoever is in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.
Lv:11:34: Of all meat which may be eaten, that on which such water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every such vessel shall be unclean.
Lv:11:35: And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean and shall be unclean unto you.
Lv:11:36: Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.
Lv:11:37: And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.
Lv:11:38: But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.
Lv:11:39: And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
Lv:11:40: And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
Lv:11:41: And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth shall be an abomination; it shall not be eaten.
Lv:11:42: Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination.
Lv:11:43: Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
Lv:11:44: For I am the Lord your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Lv:11:45: For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Lv:11:46: This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
Lv:11:47: To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.
(KJV)
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If eating the flesh of animals was a danger to our immortal souls, Leviticus wouldn't have made provisions for what to eat, and what not to eat.
Amen, Parson!
In the Garden of Eden they did not eat meat, so one could posit that in the ideal world we would be vegetarian. And by the "ideal world", I mean the post-messianic world, with world peace, universal knowledge of God, humanity united under God's rule, all that Good Stuff. But until that point, there's certainly nothing wrong with eating meat. The opposite, on the Sabbath and Jewish holidays one should specifically eat meat, so that they are in joy of the day. (Also applies to American holidays like July 4 and Thanksgiving I would say.) :)
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Genesis 4 and Abel for his part brought of the firstlings of his flock, their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering,
Genesis 8 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. And when the Lord smelt the pleasing odor
No one told these guys to do this. They each killed animals to offer as sacrifices, and God accepted it both times. And then after the flood
Genesis 9 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and just as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.
If God found killing animals for food objectionable, he wouldn't have accepted Abel and Noah's sacrifices, nor would he have told Noah that eating meat was permissible.
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My spiritual contact helped me
We are to "test" the spirits... care to detail your statement?
I ask because the "language" you used is the same language those who are oppressed by divination spirits, utilize. Plus the fact, all you stated following that statement is in opposition of scripture.
So, yeah... what does "spiritual contact" mean?
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Concerning eating meat, I read something today where a person I fellowship with commented how they have heard others say that the OT is to violent and thus, they will not read the OT.
My response was this:
Anger, vengeance and even jealousy are expressed by God in many ways and this expression can be and has been, "through" mankind. The intent of the heart reveals whether or not the "violence" is righteous before God or not righteous.
It can be tough on brethren when they begin to chew on "meat" of the Scriptures!!
What I didn't say but made note in my journal (yeah, I journal much of what I write) is how by only "chewing" on the meat of scripture, and by the example of comments about the OT, chewers spit the Scripture out and don't consume the meat of Scripture. They are not "nourished" by the Scriptures when they only "chew."
Also, they fail in "knowing" God in who He is and only acquaint themselves to what they WANT God to be.
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Those who refuse to read the OT Scriptures because it is "too violent" I suspect are simply making excuses not to read it. Though there are genuinely sensitive young Christians who cannot bear to equate spiritual things with "violence," most of those who might criticize Scriptures are the same who'd watch extremely violent movies. ;)
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If eating the flesh of animals was a danger to our immortal souls, Leviticus wouldn't have made provisions for what to eat, and what not to eat.
Also, in the scriptures detailing the sacrificing of animals, the priests and their families received portions of the animals to eat.
Again, all the spirit said to that person, is in opposition of Scripture and is actually an example of what we're warned about in 1 Tim 4:1-5. The final comment about "hoping" to see us in heaven as if eating meat prevents such, reveals HJ73's seared conscience.
1 Tim 4: Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
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My spiritual contact helped me
We are to "test" the spirits... care to detail your statement?
I ask because the "language" you used is the same language those who are oppressed by divination spirits, utilize. Plus the fact, all you stated following that statement is in opposition of scripture.
So, yeah... what does "spiritual contact" mean?
Love, Holy Spirit i guess. I also asked for name. Two answers were "who knows who we are" and "there is only love".
Why is this controversial? Its such an easy choice not to support an industry who just cause death and suffering. Even if it is allowed why take take that risk? Risk is way higher than any possible theoretical benefit.
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Love, Holy Spirit i guess. I also asked for name. Two answers were "who knows who we are" and "there is only love".
Why is this controversial? Its such an easy choice not to support an industry who just cause death and suffering. Even if it is allowed why take take that risk? Risk is way higher than any possible theoretical benefit.
Have you spoken to your pastor about what a spirit is revealing to you?
My point, the Holy Spirit convicts people of "sin." Based on scripture, it is not a sin to eat meat. Thus, the spirit speaking to you is deceiving you. We're even warned of such spirits in the Bible and I posted that warning also.
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My point, the Holy Spirit convicts people of "sin." Based on scripture, it is not a sin to eat meat.
I'm reminded of the amusing observation that according to some people, the bible doesn't prohibit enough things and they feel the need to tack on more.
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Love, Holy Spirit i guess. I also asked for name. Two answers were "who knows who we are" and "there is only love".
Why is this controversial? Its such an easy choice not to support an industry who just cause death and suffering. Even if it is allowed why take take that risk? Risk is way higher than any possible theoretical benefit.
Have you spoken to your pastor about what a spirit is revealing to you?
My point, the Holy Spirit convicts people of "sin." Based on scripture, it is not a sin to eat meat. Thus, the spirit speaking to you is deceiving you. We're even warned of such spirits in the Bible and I posted that warning also.
Have no reason to talk to a pastor. It may not be a "sin" but you can not be certain. You can not know if you have not been lied to or misunderstand the texts. The spiritual risk of eating meat is a lot higher than not eating meat.
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It may not be a "sin" but you can not be certain.
If the bible doesn't say that it is a sin, then it isn't a sin.
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It may not be a "sin" but you can not be certain.
If the bible doesn't say that it is a sin, then it isn't a sin.
I bet to God it is very different to eat meat because we would otherwise starve or eat it because we like the taste.
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Genesis 8 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. And when the Lord smelt the pleasing odor
God finds the smell of cooked meat pleasant. And as mentioned, no one told Noah to do this. He made the offering entirely of his own decision. God didn't criticize or condemn the action, or call it a sin. He found the act pleasing.
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Genesis 8 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. And when the Lord smelt the pleasing odor
God finds the smell of cooked meat pleasant. And as mentioned, no one told Noah to do this. He made the offering entirely of his own decision. God didn't criticize or condemn the action, or call it a sin. He found the act pleasing.
I very much doubt that. :D It does not say it was God who found the smell pleasing.
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Genesis 8 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. And when the Lord smelt the pleasing odor
God finds the smell of cooked meat pleasant. And as mentioned, no one told Noah to do this. He made the offering entirely of his own decision. God didn't criticize or condemn the action, or call it a sin. He found the act pleasing.
I very much doubt that. :D It does not say it was God who found the smell pleasing.
There's no way to distinguish between 'Lord' and 'God' such that Noah was for whatever asinine reason building an altar to the Lord rather than God (what brazen idolatry that would have been in his fresh postdiluvian world). As Genesis 8 goes on to say:
"The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done."
This referring to the same Lord who cursed the ground, who in Genesis 3, for what it's worth, is clearly referred to as 'the Lord God'.
I had a hamburger today. It was good.
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It does not say it was God who found the smell pleasing.
וירח יהוה את־ריח הניחח
and Yahweh smelled the pleasant aroma
You know, Yahweh, who is called "Yahweh God" throughout Genesis 2-3.
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I cant see anything that says that God or Lord said the aroma was pleasant. The text just states that the aroma was pleasant from what i can see.
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I bet to God it is very different to eat meat because we would otherwise starve or eat it because we like the taste.
I don't even know what this means.
Deuteronomy 12:15 ...you may slaughter your animals in any of your towns and eat as much of the meat as you want, as if it were gazelle or deer, according to the blessing the LORD your God gives you...
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Genesis 9:3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
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and Yahweh smelled the pleasant aroma
I read Hebrew and confirm that is what it says.
At this point HJ73 isn't just creating a new religion, he's creating a new language as well.
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I cant see anything that says that God or Lord said the aroma was pleasant. The text just states that the aroma was pleasant from what i can see.
"Pleasant" is a subjective term. One person finds a grilled salmon "pleasant," another finds it repulsive. For a scent to be "pleasant," it must be "pleasant" to the one who smells it. Who smelled the cooked meat so that it should be called a "pleasant aroma"? Yahweh.
So you've invented ambiguity in the text where there isn't any. Let's skip forward.
Leviticus 1 The LORD summoned Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying ... The bull shall be slaughtered before the LORD; and Aaron’s sons the priests shall offer the blood, dashing the blood against all sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. The burnt-offering shall be flayed and cut up into its parts. The sons of the priest Aaron shall put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the parts, with the head and the suet, on the wood that is on the fire on the altar; but its entrails and its legs shall be washed with water. Then the priest shall turn the whole into smoke on the altar as a burnt-offering, an offering by fire of pleasing aroma to the LORD.
God ordered the death of the animal. God ordered the animal to be cut. God ordered the animal to be burned. God states that the cooked meat is a "pleasing aroma" to him.
Are we going pretend this text doesn't say what it says, too? Do we need more examples, because there are lots.
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Have no reason to talk to a pastor. It may not be a "sin" but you can not be certain. You can not know if you have not been lied to or misunderstand the texts. The spiritual risk of eating meat is a lot higher than not eating meat.
You are enforcing your opinion upon the topic of eating meat. If God says it's ok to eat meat, then for you to state that there is spiritual risk by eating meat... is evidence of how you are deceived by a spirit you mention that is speaking to you.
1 Tim 4: Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
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I'm reminded of the amusing observation that according to some people, the bible doesn't prohibit enough things and they feel the need to tack on more.
At a minimum, we have an agenda trying to be pushed by the OP.
However, based on the post I just responded to, the Oper states there is spiritual risk for eating meat, well... based on this, this is not an agenda. More about legalism and due to the OPer's resistance to Scripture, I will be posting the scripture more and more about deceiving spirits because what the OPer listens to, sure isn't God.
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However, based on the post I just responded to, the Oper states there is spiritual risk for eating meat, well... based on this, this is not an agenda. More about legalism
Being a Jewish person, I can understand legalism. ;D
How one can be legalistic when the text says the exact opposite of what they're trying to prove, well...
and due to the OPer's resistance to Scripture, I will be posting the scripture more and more about deceiving spirits because what the OPer listens to, sure isn't God.
I look forward to this with some interest.
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How one can be legalistic when the text says the exact opposite of what they're trying to prove, well...
Fundamentally, legalism (what I raise) is when an action is required for a person to "do," so they will stand blameless before others who do the action. In this thread, the legalism is to be considered risk free in their spirituality, the required action is to NOT eat meat. If one fails to do this action, their spirituality is at risk.
Is there any evidence in the Bible that a person is spiritually at risk if they eat meat... NO.
Is the OPer stating that a person's spirituality IS at risk if they eat meat... YES.
We are "warned" to test the spirit(s) of all that is spoken by man and based on the evidence provided in Scripture, the "spirit" behind the OPer's message is NOT of God.
The OPer should go to their pastor and seek help.
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Have no reason to talk to a pastor.
"A" pastor?
I asked if you have spoken to "your" pastor. Do you have a shepherd over you?
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Whatever you want.
But it does not matter anyway of course. You can not possibly know if every word written there is truth or not unless God told you about it. Its not secret to those with eyes to see that there are evil forces that wants to kill humanity physically and spiritually. Yes the risk of eating meat is much higher than not eating meat. Especially if you do it because you just like the taste and not because you would otherwise starve i suppose. That is extremely selfish and a sign of lack of compassion. Without compassion we do not go to heaven. It is not enough to believe in Jesus. Murderers, rapists and drug cartel members can believe in Jesus to without having any compassion.
I am not saying meat eaters will not go to heaven. Just that it is an idiotic risk to take. You bet your soul for a steak. (removed) You actually do not understand that? Not trying to be mean. Just want to get through to you.
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Whatever you want.
But it does not matter anyway of course. You can not possibly know if every word written there is truth or not unless God told you about it. Its not secret to those with eyes to see that there are evil forces that wants to kill humanity physically and spiritually. Yes the risk of eating meat is much higher than not eating meat. Especially if you do it because you just like the taste and not because you would otherwise starve i suppose. That is extremely selfish and a sign of lack of compassion. Without compassion we do not go to heaven. It is not enough to believe in Jesus. Murderers, rapists and drug cartel members can believe in Jesus to without having any compassion.
I am not saying meat eaters will not go to heaven. Just that it is an idiotic risk to take. You bet your soul for a steak. (removed) You actually do not understand that? Not trying to be mean. Just want to get through to you.
I'm eating some pepperoni with my breakfast. It's a little spicy, but a bit of spice is nice in the morning. There are about 106 calories in 6 slices, so one must be careful not to munch away one's caloric budget for the day. It tastes good, too. I've paired it with cheese and roasted peanuts, and a big ole cup of H2O.
The reality is that you don't have Scripture to back up your view, which is why you're resorting to insults and ad hominems. Eating meat is simply not a salvific issue, nor is it personally anywhere close to the top of 'idiotic risks' I might or have taken.
Do you have Scripture to back up your view, or do you have only insults and some trite mentions of compassion that your own post can't even satisfy?
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Whatever you want.
But it does not matter anyway of course. You can not possibly know if every word written there is truth or not unless God told you about it. Its not secret to those with eyes to see that there are evil forces that wants to kill humanity physically and spiritually. Yes the risk of eating meat is much higher than not eating meat. Especially if you do it because you just like the taste and not because you would otherwise starve i suppose. That is extremely selfish and a sign of lack of compassion. Without compassion we do not go to heaven. It is not enough to believe in Jesus. Murderers, rapists and drug cartel members can believe in Jesus to without having any compassion.
I am not saying meat eaters will not go to heaven. Just that it is an idiotic risk to take. You bet your soul for a steak. It is beyond retarded. You actually do not understand that? Not trying to be mean. Just want to get through to you.
I'm eating some pepperoni with my breakfast. It's a little spicy, but a bit of spice is nice in the morning. There are about 106 calories in 6 slices, so one must be careful not to munch away one's caloric budget for the day. It tastes good, too. I've paired it with cheese and roasted peanuts, and a big ole cup of H2O.
The reality is that you don't have Scripture to back up your view, which is why you're resorting to insults and ad hominems. Eating meat is simply not a salvific issue, nor is it personally anywhere close to the top of 'idiotic risks' I might or have taken.
Do you have Scripture to back up your view, or do you have only insults and some trite mentions of compassion that your own post can't even satisfy?
Insults? Nope. I bet all the animals that are suffering feel quite insulted though.
Just want to make you understand.
No i listen to my spiritual contact instead of reading books since i know him/her. If he/she tells me i should tell you not to eat meat it very likely is the right thing to do.
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Why dont you think it is an idiotic risk to kill animals because you like the taste? I know you just refer to texts in the Bible. But please answer how you can be sure they have not been manipulated to make you a sinner? From what i can see they are trying to do that with so much else. Everything from going to wars in the middle east to how they are using the Covid to gain control over humanity.
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Whatever you want.
But it does not matter anyway of course. You can not possibly know if every word written there is truth or not unless God told you about it. Its not secret to those with eyes to see that there are evil forces that wants to kill humanity physically and spiritually. Yes the risk of eating meat is much higher than not eating meat. Especially if you do it because you just like the taste and not because you would otherwise starve i suppose. That is extremely selfish and a sign of lack of compassion. Without compassion we do not go to heaven. It is not enough to believe in Jesus. Murderers, rapists and drug cartel members can believe in Jesus to without having any compassion.
I am not saying meat eaters will not go to heaven. Just that it is an idiotic risk to take. You bet your soul for a steak. It is beyond retarded. You actually do not understand that? Not trying to be mean. Just want to get through to you.
I'm eating some pepperoni with my breakfast. It's a little spicy, but a bit of spice is nice in the morning. There are about 106 calories in 6 slices, so one must be careful not to munch away one's caloric budget for the day. It tastes good, too. I've paired it with cheese and roasted peanuts, and a big ole cup of H2O.
The reality is that you don't have Scripture to back up your view, which is why you're resorting to insults and ad hominems. Eating meat is simply not a salvific issue, nor is it personally anywhere close to the top of 'idiotic risks' I might or have taken.
Do you have Scripture to back up your view, or do you have only insults and some trite mentions of compassion that your own post can't even satisfy?
Insults? Nope. I bet all the animals that are suffering feel quite insulted though.
Just want to make you understand.
No i listen to my spiritual contact instead of reading books since i know him/her. If he/she tells me i should tell you not to eat meat it very likely is the right thing to do.
Do you have Scripture to back up your view? You're on a Christian Bible forum, so that's the bare minimum requirement.
You're comparing meat-eating with murder, rape and membership in a drug cartel.
You're conflating 'belief in' with 'acknowledgement of'.
You're all but outright stating that belief in Jesus necessitates that one refrain from eating meat. Again, do you have Scripture to back up this view?
You're speaking to the general 'you' in your reply, accusing that you of being idiotic, retarded, lacking understanding.
You're claiming that you have 'eyes to see' that "there are evil forces that [want] to kill humanity physically and spiritually". We'd probably disagree on the details, but this isn't exactly news to any Christian in the last ~2,000 or so years. What Scripture backs up your argument, or are you making a gnostic appeal?
Why dont you think it is an idiotic risk to kill animals because you like the taste?
Why is it idiotic? Show me the Scripture that says it's idiotic to kill animals because they taste good, and I happen to want steak on Tuesday and a salad on Wednesday.
I know you just refer to texts in the Bible.
The forum URL should have given away that much. Do you have Scriptural support for your argument?
But please answer how you can be sure they have not been manipulated to make you a sinner?
What do you mean 'make me a sinner'? I'm saved by the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ but I am no stranger to sin, and that's not something to be proud of, and I don't need sin upon sin being invented where sin already abounds.
And to answer your question: I've studied under the top theologians of our time and have advanced degrees in constructive/systematic and historical theology. How about you?
From what i can see they are trying to do that with so much else. Everything from going to wars in the middle east to how they are using the Covid to gain control over humanity.
Who are 'they'?
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Whatever you want.
But it does not matter anyway of course. You can not possibly know if every word written there is truth or not unless God told you about it. Its not secret to those with eyes to see that there are evil forces that wants to kill humanity physically and spiritually. Yes the risk of eating meat is much higher than not eating meat. Especially if you do it because you just like the taste and not because you would otherwise starve i suppose. That is extremely selfish and a sign of lack of compassion. Without compassion we do not go to heaven. It is not enough to believe in Jesus. Murderers, rapists and drug cartel members can believe in Jesus to without having any compassion.
I am not saying meat eaters will not go to heaven. Just that it is an idiotic risk to take. You bet your soul for a steak. It is beyond retarded. You actually do not understand that? Not trying to be mean. Just want to get through to you.
I'm eating some pepperoni with my breakfast. It's a little spicy, but a bit of spice is nice in the morning. There are about 106 calories in 6 slices, so one must be careful not to munch away one's caloric budget for the day. It tastes good, too. I've paired it with cheese and roasted peanuts, and a big ole cup of H2O.
The reality is that you don't have Scripture to back up your view, which is why you're resorting to insults and ad hominems. Eating meat is simply not a salvific issue, nor is it personally anywhere close to the top of 'idiotic risks' I might or have taken.
Do you have Scripture to back up your view, or do you have only insults and some trite mentions of compassion that your own post can't even satisfy?
Insults? Nope. I bet all the animals that are suffering feel quite insulted though.
Just want to make you understand.
No i listen to my spiritual contact instead of reading books since i know him/her. If he/she tells me i should tell you not to eat meat it very likely is the right thing to do.
Do you have Scripture to back up your view? You're on a Christian Bible forum, so that's the bare minimum requirement.
You're comparing meat-eating with murder, rape and membership in a drug cartel.
You're conflating 'belief in' with 'acknowledgement of'.
You're all but outright stating that belief in Jesus necessitates that one refrain from eating meat. Again, do you have Scripture to back up this view?
You're speaking to the general 'you' in your reply, accusing that you of being idiotic, retarded, lacking understanding.
You're claiming that you have 'eyes to see' that "there are evil forces that [want] to kill humanity physically and spiritually". We'd probably disagree on the details, but this isn't exactly news to any Christian in the last ~2,000 or so years. What Scripture backs up your argument, or are you making a gnostic appeal?
Why dont you think it is an idiotic risk to kill animals because you like the taste?
Why is it idiotic? Show me the Scripture that says it's idiotic to kill animals because they taste good, and I happen to want steak on Tuesday and a salad on Wednesday.
I know you just refer to texts in the Bible.
The forum URL should have given away that much. Do you have Scriptural support for your argument?
But please answer how you can be sure they have not been manipulated to make you a sinner?
What do you mean 'make me a sinner'? I'm saved by the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ but I am no stranger to sin, and that's not something to be proud of, and I don't need sin upon sin being invented where sin already abounds.
And to answer your question: I've studied under the top theologians of our time and have advanced degrees in constructive/systematic and historical theology. How about you?
From what i can see they are trying to do that with so much else. Everything from going to wars in the middle east to how they are using the Covid to gain control over humanity.
Who are 'they'?
I think you need to think deeper about risk vs reward. Not sure why it is so difficult for some to understand that eating meat is spiritually much riskier than not eating meat. Others have no problem at all to see that.
Guess the indoctrination is extremely strong.
Why not just follow "Thou shalt not kill" for humans and animals and be on the safe side?
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Whatever you want.
But it does not matter anyway of course. You can not possibly know if every word written there is truth or not unless God told you about it.
The Word of God IS God speaking to mankind and:
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
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Guess the indoctrination is extremely strong.
Why not just follow "Thou shalt not kill" for humans and animals and be on the safe side?
Allow me to provide an example of indoctrination. Indoctrination is all about "wrong" interpretation OR... or translation of scripture.
There is NO SUCH scripture that states, "thou shalt not kill." Ya won't find such a Commandment in any properly translated Bible. When one "enforces" a value to another's spiritual quality based on such a WRONG translation (a false meaning), then the enforcement (even judgement) over others is fruit of what is true indoctrination.
The proper translation is: Thou shalt not murder.
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Whatever you want.
But it does not matter anyway of course. You can not possibly know if every word written there is truth or not unless God told you about it. Its not secret to those with eyes to see that there are evil forces that wants to kill humanity physically and spiritually. Yes the risk of eating meat is much higher than not eating meat. Especially if you do it because you just like the taste and not because you would otherwise starve i suppose. That is extremely selfish and a sign of lack of compassion. Without compassion we do not go to heaven. It is not enough to believe in Jesus. Murderers, rapists and drug cartel members can believe in Jesus to without having any compassion.
I am not saying meat eaters will not go to heaven. Just that it is an idiotic risk to take. You bet your soul for a steak. It is beyond retarded. You actually do not understand that? Not trying to be mean. Just want to get through to you.
I'm eating some pepperoni with my breakfast. It's a little spicy, but a bit of spice is nice in the morning. There are about 106 calories in 6 slices, so one must be careful not to munch away one's caloric budget for the day. It tastes good, too. I've paired it with cheese and roasted peanuts, and a big ole cup of H2O.
The reality is that you don't have Scripture to back up your view, which is why you're resorting to insults and ad hominems. Eating meat is simply not a salvific issue, nor is it personally anywhere close to the top of 'idiotic risks' I might or have taken.
Do you have Scripture to back up your view, or do you have only insults and some trite mentions of compassion that your own post can't even satisfy?
Insults? Nope. I bet all the animals that are suffering feel quite insulted though.
Just want to make you understand.
No i listen to my spiritual contact instead of reading books since i know him/her. If he/she tells me i should tell you not to eat meat it very likely is the right thing to do.
Do you have Scripture to back up your view? You're on a Christian Bible forum, so that's the bare minimum requirement.
You're comparing meat-eating with murder, rape and membership in a drug cartel.
You're conflating 'belief in' with 'acknowledgement of'.
You're all but outright stating that belief in Jesus necessitates that one refrain from eating meat. Again, do you have Scripture to back up this view?
You're speaking to the general 'you' in your reply, accusing that you of being idiotic, retarded, lacking understanding.
You're claiming that you have 'eyes to see' that "there are evil forces that [want] to kill humanity physically and spiritually". We'd probably disagree on the details, but this isn't exactly news to any Christian in the last ~2,000 or so years. What Scripture backs up your argument, or are you making a gnostic appeal?
Why dont you think it is an idiotic risk to kill animals because you like the taste?
Why is it idiotic? Show me the Scripture that says it's idiotic to kill animals because they taste good, and I happen to want steak on Tuesday and a salad on Wednesday.
I know you just refer to texts in the Bible.
The forum URL should have given away that much. Do you have Scriptural support for your argument?
But please answer how you can be sure they have not been manipulated to make you a sinner?
What do you mean 'make me a sinner'? I'm saved by the grace of my Lord Jesus Christ but I am no stranger to sin, and that's not something to be proud of, and I don't need sin upon sin being invented where sin already abounds.
And to answer your question: I've studied under the top theologians of our time and have advanced degrees in constructive/systematic and historical theology. How about you?
From what i can see they are trying to do that with so much else. Everything from going to wars in the middle east to how they are using the Covid to gain control over humanity.
Who are 'they'?
I think you need to think deeper about risk vs reward. Not sure why it is so difficult for some to understand that eating meat is spiritually much riskier than not eating meat. Others have no problem at all to see that.
Guess the indoctrination is extremely strong.
Why not just follow "Thou shalt not kill" for humans and animals and be on the safe side?
The 'safe side' of what? The only 'safe side' is God's grace. I'm not going to get brownie points because I didn't do X or Y 'just to be safe'. You've yet to provide any Scripture showing that meat-eating is spiritually risky.
But thank you for the Scriptural allusion. As Slug1 noted, the verb you're referring to in Exodus 20:13 - רָצַח - prohibits premeditated or unauthorised killing, that is, murder. That's to say nothing of the internal contradictions that result from an understanding of this verb as mere 'killing' in any and all of its forms (just look ahead to Exodus 21 for a quick example).
It's not the KJV is wrong in its translation necessarily. Kill was taken to mean murder when the KJV was initially published (in the 17th century). It's just that today, 'kill' and 'murder' aren't so synonymous. That's why you'll read the word 'murder' instead of 'kill' in the NKJV and other translations that adhere to the conventions of modern language.
And no, I am not indoctrinated. You're free to try to convince me that I am, and I'd be happy to know if I was, but you'll need to do better.
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Whatever you want.
But it does not matter anyway of course. You can not possibly know if every word written there is truth or not unless God told you about it. Its not secret to those with eyes to see that there are evil forces that wants to kill humanity physically and spiritually. Yes the risk of eating meat is much higher than not eating meat. Especially if you do it because you just like the taste and not because you would otherwise starve i suppose. That is extremely selfish and a sign of lack of compassion. Without compassion we do not go to heaven. It is not enough to believe in Jesus. Murderers, rapists and drug cartel members can believe in Jesus to without having any compassion.
I am not saying meat eaters will not go to heaven. Just that it is an idiotic risk to take. You bet your soul for a steak. (removed) You actually do not understand that? Not trying to be mean. Just want to get through to you.
I removed the insult from your post. Now, the question is, do you somehow believe we need to be corrected, and you're the only one who can do it?
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It seems evil is coming out in the light very soon. That is perhaps another reason why it is stupid to eat meat today and why spirit is telling me to warn you.
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Not sure if i wrote this or if it matters. I know my contact and that he/she is kind and loving. If it helps i heard his/her voice from above once. We now talk in a different way. Once he/she opened my heart area. It then feels like a huge lamp in your chest. I doubt anyone can do that.
If you can not stop eating meat then at least cut down and tell others to do as well.
I suppose when we support killing animals we then open the door for them to attack our bodies
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It seems evil is coming out in the light very soon. That is perhaps another reason why it is stupid to eat meat today and why spirit is telling me to warn you.
1 John 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1 Thessalonians 5
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Not sure if i wrote this or if it matters. I know my contact and that he/she is kind and loving. If it helps i heard his/her voice from above once. We now talk in a different way. Once he/she opened my heart area. It then feels like a huge lamp in your chest. I doubt anyone can do that.
If you can not stop eating meat then at least cut down and tell others to do as well.
I suppose when we support killing animals we then open the door for them to attack our bodies
If what you say cannot stand when examined by scripture, then the spirit and message you spread are false. Offer scriptural support for what you're claiming, or recognise that this 'contact' of yours isn't what it claims to be despite how you felt (you seem to be underestimating the strength of emotion and psychosomatic events).
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As i wrote i know my contact very well. Cant prove that to you so you have to think deep about what is best for you.
"The bad about eating meat is the lasting effect of hurting and killing animals. These martyred animals return in the form of creatures who turn their forces against the bodies of the descendents of those who once killed them." Rudolf Steiner
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As i wrote i know my contact very well. Cant prove that to you so you have to think deep about what is best for you.
"The bad about eating meat is the lasting effect of hurting and killing animals. These martyred animals return in the form of creatures who turn their forces against the bodies of the descendents of those who once killed them." Rudolf Steiner
I'm not asking for proof of how well you think you know your 'contact'. I'm asking for evidence from scripture that supports your view, which is heavily influenced by Steiner it seems. Steiner's view of 'the Christ' and Jesus (and Mithra, and all the rest) are quite at odds with scripture. Where's the scriptural evidence for your view?
As John wrote:
1 John 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
We also read in Acts 10:
9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray.
10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.
11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.
12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds.
13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
So, where's the scripture that supports your view, and calls impure what God has made clean?
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It seems evil is coming out in the light very soon. That is perhaps another reason why it is stupid to eat meat today and why spirit is telling me to warn you.
Scripture, utilize Scripture in support of your statements. If scripture cannot support what you are told, and as scripture continues to refute what you hear, you're not hearing from God.
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Not sure if i wrote this or if it matters. I know my contact and that he/she is kind and loving. If it helps i heard his/her voice from above once. We now talk in a different way. Once he/she opened my heart area. It then feels like a huge lamp in your chest. I doubt anyone can do that.
If you can not stop eating meat then at least cut down and tell others to do as well.
I suppose when we support killing animals we then open the door for them to attack our bodies
Scripture, utilize Scripture in support of your statements. If scripture cannot support what you are told, and as scripture continues to refute what you hear, you're not hearing from God.
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As i wrote i know my contact very well. Cant prove that to you so you have to think deep about what is best for you.
Scripture, utilize Scripture in support of your statements. If scripture cannot support what you are told, and as scripture continues to refute what you hear, you're not hearing from God.
"The bad about eating meat is the lasting effect of hurting and killing animals. These martyred animals return in the form of creatures who turn their forces against the bodies of the descendents of those who once killed them." Rudolf Steiner
This is not scripture.
Here is a quote that is not a verse but is specific to this topic:
"The Lord told me,' is no substitute for 'the Bible says." - Voddie Baucham
HJ73, anything a spirit says that is NOT of scripture, not supported by scripture, is refuted by scripture... the spirit speaking is NOT of God. There are three (3) spirits at work in the world, 1) The Holy Spirit, 2) demonic spirits, 3) our human spirit. ALL spirits must be tested and based on scriptural evidence, what's speaking to you, is NOT the Holy Spirit.
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Hmm.. I still do not understand why it seems so difficult to understand that killing other beings is riskier than not to.
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Hmm.. I still do not understand why it seems so difficult to understand that killing other beings is riskier than not to.
There is no difficulty. The scriptures presented throughout this thread refute the stance that eating meat is harmful in any physical or spiritual way.
If there is a risk to mankind's spiritual nature in relation with God by killing and eating animals, then please... present the Scriptures for this discussion.
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Hmm.. I still do not understand why it seems so difficult to understand that killing other beings is riskier than not to.
There is no difficulty. The scriptures presented throughout this thread refute the stance that eating meat is harmful in any physical or spiritual way.
If there is a risk to mankind's spiritual nature in relation with God by killing and eating animals, then please... present the Scriptures for this discussion.
Then you must be 100% certain that evil forces have not been able to change words in the Bible to hurt humans. How can you?
You can see evil everywhere else so...
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I cant see anything that says that God or Lord said the aroma was pleasant. The text just states that the aroma was pleasant from what i can see.
"Pleasant" is a subjective term. One person finds a grilled salmon "pleasant," another finds it repulsive. For a scent to be "pleasant," it must be "pleasant" to the one who smells it. Who smelled the cooked meat so that it should be called a "pleasant aroma"? Yahweh.
So you've invented ambiguity in the text where there isn't any. Let's skip forward.
Leviticus 1 The LORD summoned Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying ... The bull shall be slaughtered before the LORD; and Aaron’s sons the priests shall offer the blood, dashing the blood against all sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. The burnt-offering shall be flayed and cut up into its parts. The sons of the priest Aaron shall put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the parts, with the head and the suet, on the wood that is on the fire on the altar; but its entrails and its legs shall be washed with water. Then the priest shall turn the whole into smoke on the altar as a burnt-offering, an offering by fire of pleasing aroma to the LORD.
God ordered the death of the animal. God ordered the animal to be cut. God ordered the animal to be burned. God states that the cooked meat is a "pleasing aroma" to him.
Are we going pretend this text doesn't say what it says, too? Do we need more examples, because there are lots.
Guess we're just gonna ignore this comment entirely.
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Then you must be 100% certain that evil forces have not been able to change words in the Bible to hurt humans. How can you?
Very easy to know that the Bible is not hurting humans:
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
You can see evil everywhere else so...
And apparently hear deceiving spirits that lead people to reject all scripture refuting what tests the words that the evil is speaking, so some remain deceived.
So far, there is no scripture that supports what you claim the voice told you.
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Then you must be 100% certain that evil forces have not been able to change words in the Bible to hurt humans. How can you?
Very easy to know that the Bible is not hurting humans:
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
You can see evil everywhere else so...
And apparently hear deceiving spirits that lead people to reject all scripture refuting what tests the words that the evil is speaking, so some remain deceived.
So far, there is no scripture that supports what you claim the voice told you.
Circular reasoning.
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Hmm.. I still do not understand why it seems so difficult to understand that killing other beings is riskier than not to.
There is no difficulty. The scriptures presented throughout this thread refute the stance that eating meat is harmful in any physical or spiritual way.
If there is a risk to mankind's spiritual nature in relation with God by killing and eating animals, then please... present the Scriptures for this discussion.
Then you must be 100% certain that evil forces have not been able to change words in the Bible to hurt humans. How can you?
You can see evil everywhere else so...
What evidence do you have for this claim?
Have you deeply studied historical or systematic theology, or textual criticism, like some of us have?
Are you including your own claims in the scepticism displayed here? Are you 100% certain that your contact isn't an evil force? If so, how did you come to be 100% certain, when that's an epistemic impossibility and an asinine standard?
Where is the Scripture for your argument?
Did you have Scripture to back up your argument?
What about Scripture?
Then you must be 100% certain that evil forces have not been able to change words in the Bible to hurt humans. How can you?
Very easy to know that the Bible is not hurting humans:
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
You can see evil everywhere else so...
And apparently hear deceiving spirits that lead people to reject all scripture refuting what tests the words that the evil is speaking, so some remain deceived.
So far, there is no scripture that supports what you claim the voice told you.
Circular reasoning.
It may be circular but that doesn't make it invalid de facto. What reason should Slug1 have for doubting the truthfulness of 2 Timothy 3:16? If all you have in reply is severe scepticism ("but how do you know? BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW?" but, how do you know?") then you will, I'm sure, understand why such a position would be ignored out of hand.
Hmm.. I still do not understand why it seems so difficult to understand that killing other beings is riskier than not to.
Stick to one claim and provide Scriptural support for it if you're going to claim that the claim has spiritual or soteriological import.
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Hmm.. I still do not understand why it seems so difficult to understand that killing other beings is riskier than not to.
There is no difficulty. The scriptures presented throughout this thread refute the stance that eating meat is harmful in any physical or spiritual way.
If there is a risk to mankind's spiritual nature in relation with God by killing and eating animals, then please... present the Scriptures for this discussion.
Then you must be 100% certain that evil forces have not been able to change words in the Bible to hurt humans. How can you?
You can see evil everywhere else so...
What evidence do you have for this claim?
Have you deeply studied historical or systematic theology, or textual criticism, like some of us have?
Are you including your own claims in the scepticism displayed here? Are you 100% certain that your contact isn't an evil force? If so, how did you come to be 100% certain, when that's an epistemic impossibility and an asinine standard?
Where is the Scripture for your argument?
Did you have Scripture to back up your argument?
What about Scripture?
Then you must be 100% certain that evil forces have not been able to change words in the Bible to hurt humans. How can you?
Very easy to know that the Bible is not hurting humans:
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
You can see evil everywhere else so...
And apparently hear deceiving spirits that lead people to reject all scripture refuting what tests the words that the evil is speaking, so some remain deceived.
So far, there is no scripture that supports what you claim the voice told you.
Circular reasoning.
It may be circular but that doesn't make it invalid de facto. What reason should Slug1 have for doubting the truthfulness of 2 Timothy 3:16? If all you have in reply is severe scepticism ("but how do you know? BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW?" but, how do you know?") then you will, I'm sure, understand why such a position would be ignored out of hand.
Hmm.. I still do not understand why it seems so difficult to understand that killing other beings is riskier than not to.
Stick to one claim and provide Scriptural support for it if you're going to claim that the claim has spiritual or soteriological import.
Sure it does not have to be invalid. Again all i am saying is that it is riskier to kill than not. Or do you believe God will punish you if you refuse to kill other beings?
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Sure it does not have to be invalid. Again all i am saying is that it is riskier to kill than not. Or do you believe God will punish you if you refuse to kill other beings?
Scripture?
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Circular reasoning.
How?
I am trusting the Word of God and you are doing all you can to reject the Word of God both by rejecting the scriptures that refute your statements based on the voice speaking to you and also, by failing to verify (test that voice), through the Scriptures through your own study of God's Word.
No scripture has been presented in support of your statements.
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Sure it does not have to be invalid. Again all i am saying is that it is riskier to kill than not. Or do you believe God will punish you if you refuse to kill other beings?
Your statement and then the question truly make no sense. This is why, according to scripture, killing is NOT a sin before God. Murder is, killing is not.
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Circular reasoning.
How?
I am trusting the Word of God and you are doing all you can to reject the Word of God both by rejecting the scriptures that refute your statements based on the voice speaking to you and also, by failing to verify (test that voice), through the Scriptures through your own study of God's Word.
No scripture has been presented in support of your statements.
They mean:
"How do you know Scripture is true?"
Because Scripture tells us it's true
"But how do you know what Scripture says about itself is true?"
Because Scripture tells us it's true.
Circular, self-referential, tautological, whatever. But trying to set the 'how do you know?' to 100% is impossible anyway.
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Sure it does not have to be invalid. Again all i am saying is that it is riskier to kill than not. Or do you believe God will punish you if you refuse to kill other beings?
Are you attempting to undermine our reality by denying the facts of the scriptures??? Tell you what, lets lock this thread for the time being, and move on to another subject. Discuss other issues!
By the way, you wouldn't happen to be a member of PETA would you?