Eternal Torment vs Annihilation

[Redeemed]

If a person assumes the theological unity of the entire Christian Bible and that Paul can only be understood by harmonizing everything he says with the gospels or other epistles or Revelation, then what I'm doing must sound like "cherry picking". But I don't begin with the assumption of theological unity.

And that's the problem right there.

Regarding eternal torment/ separation scriptures simply do not give us enough clear cut information to build a perfect doctrine concerning them.  That's not inconsistency it's simply "seeing through a glass darkly." 
Regarding Universalism we've been given plenty of information. Yes, Paul said "every tongue will confess." But that will happen at judgment when it will be too late for some. You've taken that completely out of context.

And yes, any doctrines must align with all of scripture or the doctrine is at fault. That's the biggest problem with a lot of trained theologians. They rely on their systems more than they rely on scriptures themselves and the fact that it is, in fact, God's given word.

You either believe all of it is true and it all interconnects or you've no reason to believe any of it. Theological Unity is essential to understanding God and developing doctrine. Without it you're trying to build your understanding upon sand instead of rock.

 If you disregard it you're wasting time trying to understand any of it. Context is essential. Without it you're like a kite blowing in the wind.   

As I've said. You can only claim Universalism by cherry picking and ignoring context. If you're belief doesn't align with ALL of scriptures then it is your belief that's at fault. Not Scripture.

As yes, I know the history of Judaism, The Church and The Gosple/ Good News.     

[agnostic]

Just like before, I see a lot of commentary about how I'm flawed and that I'm incapable of reading the Bible (one big ad hominem), and not one bit actually engaging the content of what I wrote.

I see this a lot. I'm respectful of the topic, I am up front with my methodology, I lay out how I get from A to B to C to... And the other person can't or won't actually interact with what I've written. They don't even bother explain why this or that assumption they make is warranted. They just call me an aimless kite or cherry picking because I don't accept the assumptions they do.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Redeemed]

I've not asked you to accept a single "assumption."

Your "engaging" has so far consisted of making bold statements and then taking things completely out of context in order to say that they mean something completely contrary to what they would mean - in context.

I could easily lay out the central thesis of Romans and show how, in context, it aligns with both OT and NT scriptures. Since you couldn't care less about context and claim that scripture itself is flawed then what would be served except the two of us throwing words at each other?
I've carefully read and considered each and every word you've written in this thread, responded and even asked for clarification. Thank you for clarifying your mindset.

You've taken my words as insults. They aren't meant to be insulting they're meant to inspire you to consider the way you view scriptures and the very nature of God.
 

[journeyman]

I don't believe it's senseless to believe that an omnipotent God can create men in His own timeless image and somehow make it work, despite human rebellion.

God is creating men in the image of Christ, his own image. The rebellious aren't the image of God. They're the image of the devil.

So I believe God has a place for rebellious men to serve Him, still displaying His image, on an eternal basis. I just don't believe it is a torture chamber. But I do believe there will be an eternal appointment, based on the level of rebellion. You may not like the idea, but for me, that's what being created in God's image means--to be an eternal being.

To me it means made like Jesus. Like  him in his character.

It does make not sense to just keep people alive to burn them alive for all eternity. I don't believe God will do that. The fire has to do with an eternal separation--the rebellious must be eternally separated from those who have adopted the holiness of Christ. The two cannot be mingled.

I see the fire as the judgement seat of Christ, where not only works are tried, but people also.

There is a reason that God has kept in existence Satan and his angels--they are eternal beings, as well. It would also make no sense to simply keep them in existence to toast them in an oven for all eternity. That's monstrous--as monstrous as any Devil!

But Satan is thrown, after his opportunity to choose the wrong, into a bottomless pit. The fire is for removal from God's presence forever. The pit is for eternal separation from God's presence--it is not a fire--it is a pit.

Satan isn't an eternal being. He'll be judged by Christ like any other mortal. The bottomless pit isn't the afterlife. It's a hole that can't be filled, like how the things of this world can never satisfy and he's chained in it.

[RandyPNW]

I don't believe it's senseless to believe that an omnipotent God can create men in His own timeless image and somehow make it work, despite human rebellion.

God is creating men in the image of Christ, his own image. The rebellious aren't the image of God. They're the image of the devil.

No, God created all men in His image. People don't stop being created in His image simply because they misbehave.

Gen 9.6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Satan isn't an eternal being. He'll be judged by Christ like any other mortal. The bottomless pit isn't the afterlife. It's a hole that can't be filled, like how the things of this world can never satisfy and he's chained in it.

Sounds like a guess to me? The fact that Satan still exists, despite his rebellion against God, indicates he is an eternal being. A "bottomless pit" is not a state of mind.

[journeyman]

No, God created all men in His image. People don't stop being created in His image simply because they misbehave.

Gen 9.6 “Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind.

Evil doers will lose their lives at the hand of one man, our Lord Jesus, who is the image of God. And the faithful are being made in his image,

 put on the new man who has been created in God's image - in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth. Eph.4:24

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2Cor.3:18

Come judgement day, all will see who was made in his image and who immortality is granted to.

Sounds like a guess to me? The fact that Satan still exists, despite his rebellion against God, indicates he is an eternal being. A "bottomless pit" is not a state of mind.

God allowing evildoers to continue for a time doesn't indicate immortality,

Even though a sinner might commit a hundred crimes and still live a long time, yet I know that it will go well with God-fearing people - for they stand in fear before him.
 But it will not go well with the wicked, nor will they prolong their days like a shadow, because they do not stand in fear before God. Ecc.8:12-13

And the bottomless pit isn't a literal hole. It's like when King Solomon said,

All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.....the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. Ecc.1:7-8

[Slug1]

Has it been considered that this verse means nothing, at the least, or is lying, at the worse?

2 Thess 1: 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

What needs to be considered is that if a person is annihilated, they cannot be punished everlastingly "FROM" (apart) the glory/power of the presence of the Lord. To say a punished unbeliever is annihilated doesn't make sense because th3 verse is another which reveals that the punishment through separation from the presence of God, is everlasting.


A person must be existing forevermore to be everlastingly punished "from" the presence of God.

[journeyman]

Has it been considered that this verse means nothing, at the least, or is lying, at the worse?

2 Thess 1: 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

What needs to be considered is that if a person is annihilated, they cannot be punished everlastingly "FROM" (apart) the glory/power of the presence of the Lord. To say a punished unbeliever is annihilated doesn't make sense because th3 verse is another which reveals that the punishment through separation from the presence of God, is everlasting.


A person must be existing forevermore to be everlastingly punished "from" the presence of God.

To be punished with destruction from God's presence everlastingly is to be annihilated. It doesn't mean on going or continuous torment.

[Slug1]

Has it been considered that this verse means nothing, at the least, or is lying, at the worse?

2 Thess 1: 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

What needs to be considered is that if a person is annihilated, they cannot be punished everlastingly "FROM" (apart) the glory/power of the presence of the Lord. To say a punished unbeliever is annihilated doesn't make sense because th3 verse is another which reveals that the punishment through separation from the presence of God, is everlasting.


A person must be existing forevermore to be everlastingly punished "from" the presence of God.

To be punished with destruction from God's presence everlastingly is to be annihilated. It doesn't mean on going or continuous torment.

Lets take this a step at a time then.

If a person is annihilated, I understand this to mean:  they do not exist anymore?

If this is to vague, what does annihilated mean to you and lets keep this at say, 9th grade language so we do not fail to express our meaning.

[journeyman]

Lets take this a step at a time then.

If a person is annihilated, I understand this to mean:  they do not exist anymore?

If this is to vague, what does annihilated mean to you and lets keep this at say, 9th grade language so we do not fail to express our meaning.

You said it right. Not to exist anymore. At Christ's judgement seat, the unsaved will be tormented when the shame of their sins are laid bare. Every sin committed over the course of their lives <--- (in this sense "forever"),

 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev.20:10

That is, by their evil committed during their existence. Then comes annihilation,

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Eze.28:18

[Slug1]

Lets take this a step at a time then.

If a person is annihilated, I understand this to mean:  they do not exist anymore?

If this is to vague, what does annihilated mean to you and lets keep this at say, 9th grade language so we do not fail to express our meaning.

You said it right. Not to exist anymore. At Christ's judgement seat, the unsaved will be tormented when the shame of their sins are laid bare. Every sin committed over the course of their lives <--- (in this sense "forever"),

 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev.20:10

That is, by their evil committed during their existence. Then comes annihilation,

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. Eze.28:18

Lets take the Ezekiel 28:18 step then. Why did you use that verse in correlation with Rev 20:10?

The reason I ask, is you use one verse that reveals how both spiritual creatures and humans will be tossed into the LoF and suffer forever and ever. While the other verse reveals how a "city" will be destroyed.

The removal of a city and all that, that city "means" or it's "embodiment" (the Ezekiel verse), from the face of the earth, how is it possible to use the verse  to support annihilation of those from the Revelation verse? Read on to v19, seems with that additional illumination, it's no possible to use v18 to represent human annihilation because God is removing what they "stand for" and what the city represents.

[journeyman]

Lets take the Ezekiel 28:18 step then. Why did you use that verse in correlation with Rev 20:10?

The reason I ask, is you use one verse that reveals how both spiritual creatures and humans will be tossed into the LoF and suffer forever and ever. While the other verse reveals how a "city" will be destroyed.

The removal of a city and all that, that city "means" or it's "embodiment" (the Ezekiel verse), from the face of the earth, how is it possible to use the verse  to support annihilation of those from the Revelation verse? Read on to v19, seems with that additional illumination, it's no possible to use v18 to represent human annihilation because God is removing what they "stand for" and what the city represents.

Eze.28:12-19 is a prophecy about the king of Tyrus, who is described as the anointed cherub who was in Eden and is no doubt a figure of Satan.
Rev.20 is where the devil is tormented "in the lake of fire day and night forever and ever." In other words, he's tormented by Christs presence, which is a blasing fire and deadly to the unrepentant

A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97:3

For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 2Thes.2:8

You're thinking "forever and ever" can only mean "for all eternity" and while that term can mean that, it can also refer to the lenght of a persons earthly life, his existence. Like when people say, I'll love you forever. They mean until the end of their life.

[Slug1]

Lets take the Ezekiel 28:18 step then. Why did you use that verse in correlation with Rev 20:10?

The reason I ask, is you use one verse that reveals how both spiritual creatures and humans will be tossed into the LoF and suffer forever and ever. While the other verse reveals how a "city" will be destroyed.

The removal of a city and all that, that city "means" or it's "embodiment" (the Ezekiel verse), from the face of the earth, how is it possible to use the verse  to support annihilation of those from the Revelation verse? Read on to v19, seems with that additional illumination, it's no possible to use v18 to represent human annihilation because God is removing what they "stand for" and what the city represents.

Eze.28:12-19 is a prophecy about the king of Tyrus, who is described as the anointed cherub who was in Eden and is no doubt a figure of Satan.
Rev.20 is where the devil is tormented "in the lake of fire day and night forever and ever." In other words, he's tormented by Christs presence, which is a blasing fire and deadly to the unrepentant

Hooah, I've studied this also.

A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. Psa.97:3

For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 2Thes.2:8

I'll get back to these.

You're thinking "forever and ever" can only mean "for all eternity" and while that term can mean that, it can also refer to the lenght of a persons earthly life, his existence. Like when people say, I'll love you forever. They mean until the end of their life.

I'm not thinking that at all. I'm viewing the inspired Word of God and looking at what is written from "His" point of view. So when "He" says, evermore, forever, etc... He's speaking from an "eternal" perspective. Not the perspective you relay and not being eternal.

[Slug1]

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming 2Thes.2:8

Let's raise this one. I can assume that you want the word "destroy" to mean, annihilated?

[journeyman]

I'm not thinking that at all. I'm viewing the inspired Word of God and looking at what is written from "His" point of view. So when "He" says, evermore, forever, etc... He's speaking from an "eternal" perspective. Not the perspective you relay and not being eternal.

From God's point of view, the reason he allows torment is for the purpose of repentance. What I'm saying is, when God's word speaks of forever, it may refer to a persons life,

he shall serve him for ever. Exo.21:6

It makes sense that sinners will be tormented by having the evil deeds they did "day and night" during their entire lives, that is, "forever and ever".

Let's raise this one. I can assume that you want the word "destroy" to mean, annihilated?

It's not a matter of what I want. It's a matter of wanting to know the heart of God. Destruction or to be destroyed may or may not refer to annihiltion, but the point I was making is that in 2Thes.2:8, antichrist is destroyed by the our Lords brightness, consumed by his word, so why cast him into the lake of fire, as in Rev.19? Unless Christs presence in glory is like a lake of fire.