saving individuals or nations?

[RandyPNW]

We see this different because I see the reduction from the nation Israel to an individual called "Israel" as a literary feature. It is Messianic to the core.

You see it this way because it's a central feature of your faith. And that's because you see everything in the bible through the lens of the NT. Because the NT is not holy writ to me, I don't see my bible in the same way that you do.

I see it that way because it's a central feature of my faith, yes. But if it wasn't logical to read it that way, it would never convince me otherwise. In fact, Messianic prophecy seems to be, by nature, somewhat obscure, and I do accept that as typical in Scripture.

Who can deny that the prophets used symbolism and acted outside of conventional wisdom of their time? Once I'm open to the idea that Scripture uses the fallenness of Israel to depict Messianic salvation, so much of what is not relevant to me becomes relevant to me. I'm not a Jew, but the salvation of the Jews means salvation of the world.

Seeing Messiah in the experience of Israel  really does fit Jesus the way Christians see him, as Savior not merely of Israel but also of the whole world. Israel becomes a portrait not of failure, but of victory through mercy, a way of salvation that simply didn't happen through the Law of Moses.

[Fenris]

I see it that way because it's a central feature of my faith, yes. But if it wasn't logical to read it that way, it would never convince me otherwise.

It's only "logical" to read it that way because you've already accepted that the NT is holy writ. If you didn't, it wouldn't be logical at all.

Who can deny that the prophets used symbolism and acted outside of conventional wisdom of their time?

I do.

The main mission of prophecy was to bring the Jewish people back to God. That's it. Not to send hidden messages to future readers of the bible. The messianic prophecies (which are not "hidden" by the way) are only to tell what will happen when the Jews return to God.  That's the message of Isaiah chapters 52 and 54: the eventual redemption of Zion. 53, sandwiched in the middle, tells the reaction of the gentile nations at that time. "Wow, the despised Jews were correct all along". Logical.

Seeing Messiah in the experience of Israel  really does fit Jesus the way Christians see him, as Savior not merely of Israel but also of the whole world.

The messiah was never intended to "save the whole world". Save from what?

Israel becomes a portrait not of failure, but of victory through mercy, a way of salvation that simply didn't happen through the Law of Moses.

God's laws (that were not invented by Moses, stop calling them "Law of Moses") have nothing to do with "salvation". They're part of a covenant that God made with the Jews at Sinai to show the world how to lead a Godly life. That's it. There's no salvation and nothing to be "saved" from. Jews follow those laws because we love God, not because there's some sort of reward in it.

[RandyPNW]

I see it that way because it's a central feature of my faith, yes. But if it wasn't logical to read it that way, it would never convince me otherwise.

It's only "logical" to read it that way because you've already accepted that the NT is holy writ. If you didn't, it wouldn't be logical at all.

Yes, neither would you accept the logic of Moses opening up the Red Sea and the Israelites hearing the voice of God at Sinai unless you first believed in the God of Israel.

Who can deny that the prophets used symbolism and acted outside of conventional wisdom of their time?

I do.

The main mission of prophecy was to bring the Jewish people back to God. That's it. Not to send hidden messages to future readers of the bible. The messianic prophecies (which are not "hidden" by the way) are only to tell what will happen when the Jews return to God.  That's the message of Isaiah chapters 52 and 54: the eventual redemption of Zion. 53, sandwiched in the middle, tells the reaction of the gentile nations at that time. "Wow, the despised Jews were correct all along". Logical.

I don't at all agree. Cryptic messages were understood to be part and parcel with God's message to Israel. It was expected that only some would understand.

Messianic prophecies were couched in esoteric statements, in the characteristics of the fathers of Judaism. One might see Messianic prophecy in the histories of the patriarchs, as symbolic of Messianic character.

Isa 32.4 The fearful heart will know and understand,
    and the stammering tongue will be fluent and clear.
Isa 53.1 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Dan 12.10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

Seeing Messiah in the experience of Israel  really does fit Jesus the way Christians see him, as Savior not merely of Israel but also of the whole world.

The messiah was never intended to "save the whole world". Save from what?

Death resulted from Man going his own way, and not listening to the word of God. Now all of mankind die, and there is no hope of restoration to eternal life in blissful fellowship with God apart from NT salvation. That is what Messiah was predicted to do through the lens of the Law of Moses. All of the infrastructure and ritual of the Law, including the temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices were designed as a temporary form of righteousness in preparation for Christ's ultimate act of atonement, which was dying on behalf of all human sin, and then forgiving those  who repent of their sins.

Israel becomes a portrait not of failure, but of victory through mercy, a way of salvation that simply didn't happen through the Law of Moses.

God's laws (that were not invented by Moses, stop calling them "Law of Moses") have nothing to do with "salvation". They're part of a covenant that God made with the Jews at Sinai to show the world how to lead a Godly life. That's it. There's no salvation and nothing to be "saved" from. Jews follow those laws because we love God, not because there's some sort of reward in it.

Everybody engages in discipline for a purpose. If it is for love of God, that in itself is a purpose. Involved in this desire to please God is the desire to remain in good standing with God. That is the hope of salvation, to be liberated from a fallen nature that tends towards sin.

I will not stop calling the Law the "Law of Moses," because that's what I see it as being. It came from God and arrived in Israel through the hands of Moses. That is how God chose it to be delivered to Israel. There is no negative connotation in this. You shouldn't think evil thoughts about me, because I had none. Moses was just doing what God wanted him to do.

[Fenris]

Yes, neither would you accept the logic of Moses opening up the Red Sea and the Israelites hearing the voice of God at Sinai unless you first believed in the God of Israel.

But what makes one accept a book as holy writ isn't logic, but faith. That you and I differ on what we accept is what leads to the differing outcome. Not "logic".

I don't at all agree. Cryptic messages were understood to be part and parcel with God's message to Israel.

"Understood" by who? Worse, by adopting this line of thought, what you're saying is that you as an outsider understand Jewish holy books better than their recipient, who not only carried these books through the ages much longer than you, but also can actually understand them in the original language.

Messianic prophecies were couched in esoteric statements, in the characteristics of the fathers of Judaism.

Again, according to who? Not the Jews. You're making a broad, sweeping statement, that isn't part of Judaism at all. You don't get to define Judaism. Jews do.

Isa 32.4 The fearful heart will know and understand,
    and the stammering tongue will be fluent and clear.
Isa 53.1 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Dan 12.10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

Someone else here does this. Take a single verse, out of context of the chapter and book, and builds doctrine around it.

I can do the same thing:

Isa 32.4 The fearful heart will know and understand,
    and the stammering tongue will be fluent and clear.

Verse 7 is talking about people who use a verse out of context: Scoundrels use wicked methods 

In fact, you're creating an entirely new doctrine, where the Jews are wrong and evil going into the end times, and it's the nations of the world who are correct and righteous. You can find this no place in scripture, so you're inventing it.

Death resulted from Man going his own way, and not listening to the word of God. Now all of mankind die, and there is no hope of restoration to eternal life in blissful fellowship with God apart from NT salvation. That is what Messiah was predicted to do through the lens of the Law of Moses. All of the infrastructure and ritual of the Law, including the temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices were designed as a temporary form of righteousness in preparation for Christ's ultimate act of atonement, which was dying on behalf of all human sin, and then forgiving those  who repent of their sins.

This is standard Christian dogma, and that's fine. But as above, if one doesn't accept the NT as holy writ, it isn't in the bible. Period.

Everybody engages in discipline for a purpose. If it is for love of God, that in itself is a purpose. Involved in this desire to please God is the desire to remain in good standing with God.

Again, you're creating a concept because it fits your pre concieved notions. It has nothing to do with "standing". If one loves another, they do things for that person based on love. Not to curry favor.

I will not stop calling the Law the "Law of Moses," because that's what I see it as being. It came from God and arrived in Israel through the hands of Moses. That is how God chose it to be delivered to Israel. There is no negative connotation in this. You shouldn't think evil thoughts about me, because I had none. Moses was just doing what God wanted him to do.

Oh I see. So you're allowed to find things that aren't even in the text, but when I point out what the text explicitly states, I'm wrong. Logical.

[RandyPNW]

Yes, neither would you accept the logic of Moses opening up the Red Sea and the Israelites hearing the voice of God at Sinai unless you first believed in the God of Israel.

But what makes one accept a book as holy writ isn't logic, but faith. That you and I differ on what we accept is what leads to the differing outcome. Not "logic".

Logic is an integral part of faith. Faith and Reason are not separate from one another, but are necessarily linked. You must have reason to have faith.

On the other hand, faith, being placed in something supernatural, may appear to be "unreasonable." Nevertheless, with God as its true object, faith properly directed in His word, believes in things that transcend the natural world.

I don't at all agree. Cryptic messages were understood to be part and parcel with God's message to Israel.

"Understood" by who? Worse, by adopting this line of thought, what you're saying is that you as an outsider understand Jewish holy books better than their recipient, who not only carried these books through the ages much longer than you, but also can actually understand them in the original language.

There is a difference between being familiar with a tradition, and being shown something by God. I may be very familiar with navigating at sea, but God may choose to speak to someone in a boat to cast his nets on one side of the boat and get a massive number of fish. A specialized navigator can't accomplish this by his familiarity with the sea.

Revelation is this way. When God sees in a nation that the nation is gradually in spiritual decline, and the people overall are less inclined to follow moral pathways, God begins to speak cryptically to those willing to listen. This is because He knows it would be a waste of time trying to reach those  uninterested in His words of correction.

I believe Jewish-Christian truth has now become, in Christianity, universal, and truth is designed to reach not just those familiar with Judaism, but all people interested in hearing God's moral truth. So when Christians study the Jewish Bible, they do understand that God has always had to bypass those who are self-satisfied with their own idea of morality, rejecting God's explicit commandments.

Messianic prophecies were couched in esoteric statements, in the characteristics of the fathers of Judaism.

Again, according to who? Not the Jews. You're making a broad, sweeping statement, that isn't part of Judaism at all. You don't get to define Judaism. Jews do.

This isn't a matter of special revelation given to Jews. The Bible is an open book, and does not require people to live in Judaism to understand what is being said.

When the same God as existed in Judaism speaks to people today, they can relate to how God expressed Himself to Jews in the past. It doesn't require being Jewish to see the connection.

It is quite obvious in all Christian experience that many in the Christian Church are not really interested in God Himself, and tend to neglect moral living, failing to maintain a close connection to God Himself. And so, they fail to hear what God is leading them to do, morally.

And so, it is no different with Christians as it was for Jews. Some don't hear the whole message God is giving them through the ministers of God's word. They think they are hearing just an interesting story, but they are failing to hear the real message that requires going back to God and hearing His moral requirements.

Isa 32.4 The fearful heart will know and understand,
    and the stammering tongue will be fluent and clear.
Isa 53.1 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Dan 12.10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

Someone else here does this. Take a single verse, out of context of the chapter and book, and builds doctrine around it.

And that's your comeback to biblical prophecies and writings? You just disregard it as someone "building a doctrine?"

I can do the same thing:

Isa 32.4 The fearful heart will know and understand,
    and the stammering tongue will be fluent and clear.

Verse 7 is talking about people who use a verse out of context: Scoundrels use wicked methods 

In fact, you're creating an entirely new doctrine, where the Jews are wrong and evil going into the end times, and it's the nations of the world who are correct and righteous. You can find this no place in scripture, so you're inventing it.

No, that's not what I was doing. I am not lumping the entire group of Jewish People together, and calling them rebellious. I do say they are misled into a corruption of their religion, but I'm not saying they are all bad people.

On the other hand, the same problem exists, I think, in Christianity. Relatively few Christians actually follow God, and hear His word. Those who hear His word and don't respond to it aren't really hearing it.

Death resulted from Man going his own way, and not listening to the word of God. Now all of mankind die, and there is no hope of restoration to eternal life in blissful fellowship with God apart from NT salvation. That is what Messiah was predicted to do through the lens of the Law of Moses. All of the infrastructure and ritual of the Law, including the temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifices were designed as a temporary form of righteousness in preparation for Christ's ultimate act of atonement, which was dying on behalf of all human sin, and then forgiving those  who repent of their sins. This is standard Christian dogma, and that's fine. But as above, if one doesn't accept the NT as holy writ, it isn't in the bible. Period.

As a Christian I see the NT blueprint in the Jewish Bible. The fact you reject its fulfillment explains why you don't see the blueprint. But again, it's there, even if you think Jews, as a group, are entitled to give it a separate meaning. As I said, Jews, as a whole, have been misled into a corrupt form of their religion.

Everybody engages in discipline for a purpose. If it is for love of God, that in itself is a purpose. Involved in this desire to please God is the desire to remain in good standing with God. Again, you're creating a concept because it fits your pre conceived notions. It has nothing to do with "standing". If one loves another, they do things for that person based on love. Not to curry favor.

Your sense of "currying favor" is suggestive of manipulation, and that's not what I mean when I say we do something to get something. When our motives are pure, there is nothing wrong with doing good to get favor from God. In fact, that's exactly what the Jewish Scriptures teach, that we should do good to curry favor with God. We should obey His word so that the nation is blessed with prosperity and safety.

[Fenris]

Logic is an integral part of faith. Faith and Reason are not separate from one another, but are necessarily linked. You must have reason to have faith.

"Faith" means something that transcends logic. I don't understand how you don't know this.

There is a difference between being familiar with a tradition, and being shown something by God.

My ancestors were shown something by God at Sinai. I have a direct parent to child transmission of this fact going back 3,000 years.

Were yours?

Revelation is this way. When God sees in a nation that the nation is gradually in spiritual decline, and the people overall are less inclined to follow moral pathways, God begins to speak cryptically to those willing to listen. This is because He knows it would be a waste of time trying to reach those  uninterested in His words of correction.

You just made this up. It isn't in the bible anywhere.

I believe Jewish-Christian truth has now become, in Christianity, universal, and truth is designed to reach not just those familiar with Judaism, but all people interested in hearing God's moral truth. So when Christians study the Jewish Bible, they do understand that God has always had to bypass those who are self-satisfied with their own idea of morality, rejecting God's explicit commandments.

And yet observant Jews follow God's commandments in the bible, and Christians generally don't. How peculiar.

This isn't a matter of special revelation given to Jews. The Bible is an open book, and does not require people to live in Judaism to understand what is being said.

The bible was given to Jews. Not the world at large. It was written in the Jewish language and is explicitly a covenant between the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and God. The Ten Commandments begins "I am the Lord your God who brought you forth from Egypt..." That doesn't apply to anyone but the Jews.

When the same God as existed in Judaism speaks to people today, they can relate to how God expressed Himself to Jews in the past. It doesn't require being Jewish to see the connection.

Of course anyone can adopt the bible's values. And that's a good thing. But that doesn't magically make them the recipient of anything else in the bible.

It is quite obvious in all Christian experience that many in the Christian Church are not really interested in God Himself, and tend to neglect moral living, failing to maintain a close connection to God Himself. And so, they fail to hear what God is leading them to do, morally.

I don't know why Christians speak so poorly of other Christians. One thing that Christians do really well is adopt the bible's values for themselves, and so come closer to God.

And that's your comeback to biblical prophecies and writings? You just disregard it as someone "building a doctrine?"

When you take  single verses out of context and build a your own personal belief system out of them? Yup. Absolutely.

No, that's not what I was doing. I am not lumping the entire group of Jewish People together, and calling them rebellious. I do say they are misled into a corruption of their religion,

Yeah, and again, you don't get to define who are "good Jews" or "bad Jews".

As a Christian I see the NT blueprint in the Jewish Bible.

Of course you do. Because you accept the NT as holy writ.

Your sense of "currying favor" is suggestive of manipulation, and that's not what I mean when I say we do something to get something. When our motives are pure, there is nothing wrong with doing good to get favor from God. In fact, that's exactly what the Jewish Scriptures teach, that we should do good to curry favor with God. We should obey His word so that the nation is blessed with prosperity and safety.

That's not what Judaism teaches. God does bless the faithful, but that isn't the reason to be faithful. We're to be faithful because we love God with all our heart and all our soul and all our might (Deut 6:4) That's why Jews could go into the gas chambers singing "I believe", when the time for blessing was obviously done. Because of love. You as a Christian should appreciate this.

[RandyPNW]

"Faith" means something that transcends logic. I don't understand how you don't know this.

Apparently there are a lot of things you don't understand? Faith and Reason are not opposites. Though faith transcends reason, it is not unreasonable.

My ancestors were shown something by God at Sinai. I have a direct parent to child transmission of this fact going back 3,000 years.

Were yours?

That's an enviable ancestry. However, spiritual values are directly communicated, and not through ancestry. The only value in ancestry is that our forebears prepared a nest for us before we were born.

No, real spiritual value is our own relationship with God--not our relationship with a tradition. The traditions only serve as an aid to advancing our personal relationship with God. Our job is hear God's word to our conscience, and to obey that word--every day!

You just made this up. It isn't in the bible anywhere.

No, the Prophets frequently mentioned that the people were spiritually drowsy, and sometimes stopped listening to their prophets altogether. Their minds were eventually closed completely. The prophet could not speak to the whole group any longer, but could only set forth truths that a few would hear.

And yet observant Jews follow God's commandments in the bible, and Christians generally don't. How peculiar.

It's funny how you pulled that! You referred to "observant" Jews, and then spoke of Christians as a complete class of people, not distinguishing between the observant and the less-observant.

In fact, observant Christians are as loyal to their creeds as observant Jews are to theirs. But if you want to talk about all Jews as a class of people, I'd have to say, just like you, that they *don't* follow even their own religion. At the very least, they redefine their religion as something else.

The bible was given to Jews. Not the world at large. It was written in the Jewish language and is explicitly a covenant between the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and God. The Ten Commandments begins "I am the Lord your God who brought you forth from Egypt..." That doesn't apply to anyone but the Jews.

Your problem is that what you say was true only for its time. As we Christians say, in B.C. Israel was the only chosen nation. But in A.D. there wasn't any "chosen nation" any longer. All nations were given equal access to covenant relationship with God through the NT.

How do I know this? The same way you say the Bible was written in Hebrew and Chaldean, I would say the Bible was translated into Greek and into all other languages. Therefore, God chose Israel and gave them their Bible in order to eventually share their Bible with the rest of the world.

It doesn't matter if you, as a Jew, reject the NT. The fact is, the Bible has been translated into all other languages, and Christianity now is the dominant religion on earth.

Of course anyone can adopt the bible's values. And that's a good thing. But that doesn't magically make them the recipient of anything else in the bible.

Nobody's talking about magic. I'm talking about what God did in history. At the very point where Israel rejected Christ, their Bible began to be taught to all other nations. And I agree--that was a good thing.

I don't know why Christians speak so poorly of other Christians. One thing that Christians do really well is adopt the bible's values for themselves, and so come closer to God.

Here's where I have greater depth than you, in the matter of critiquing other Christians. That's because I was born into Christianity, and can criticize my own, just as you are best equipped to criticize your own kind.

Would you call the Prophets "bad saints" because they criticized Israel? Did they lose their manners?

No, there is a time to correct your own religious brothers, particularly when some in your religion are not truly "brothers." Many follow religions under false pretenses, thinking that it is a means of gain rather than a code of ethics to observe.

Yeah, and again, you don't get to define who are "good Jews" or "bad Jews".

Oh, I most definitely do. Christians are given the authorization from God to judge others, assuming it is not personal judgment, but only God's judgment. We are not doing so as a means of inflicting punishment, but only as a means of testifying of what is proper or not. Having knowledge from God, we are held accountable to share what we know in the hopes of aiding society.

That's not what Judaism teaches. God does bless the faithful, but that isn't the reason to be faithful. We're to be faithful because we love God with all our heart and all our soul and all our might (Deut 6:4) That's why Jews could go into the gas chambers singing "I believe", when the time for blessing was obviously done. Because of love. You as a Christian should appreciate this.

I will always feel devastated for the Jewish People when bringing up the Holocaust. It's the equivalent of the Christians suffering under pagan Rome in some respects. So I don't wish to address any subject with that subject in the background.

You suggest we obey God to curry favor with Him? You're wrong if you think Judaism doesn't believe in the same. The blessings of Gerazim and the curses of Ebal suggest otherwise.

Nobody sucks up to God when worshiping Him. They love Him and respect Him, and want our Creator to be pleased with our behavior, as we try to be like Him.

[Fenris]

Apparently there are a lot of things you don't understand? Faith and Reason are not opposites.

"faith" are things that can't be proved but we accept anyway. "Logic" are things that can be proved. They're opposites by definition.

That's an enviable ancestry. However, spiritual values are directly communicated, and not through ancestry.

Yes. And my spiritual values were directly communicated, by my parents, by my teachers, and by reading the bible myself.

No, real spiritual value is our own relationship with God--not our relationship with a tradition. The traditions only serve as an aid to advancing our personal relationship with God. Our job is hear God's word to our conscience, and to obey that word--every day!

I have a relationship with God. I obey His word, including keeping the bible's many laws to the best of my ability.

No, the Prophets frequently mentioned that the people were spiritually drowsy, and sometimes stopped listening to their prophets altogether. Their minds were eventually closed completely. The prophet could not speak to the whole group any longer, but could only set forth truths that a few would hear.

"Frequently mentioned" in other words "I don't have any quotes but it bolsters my case so I'm saying it anyway".

It's funny how you pulled that! You referred to "observant" Jews, and then spoke of Christians as a complete class of people, not distinguishing between the observant and the less-observant.

You mean there are Christians who uphold biblical law? Do tell.

In fact, observant Christians are as loyal to their creeds as observant Jews are to theirs. But if you want to talk about all Jews as a class of people, I'd have to say, just like you, that they *don't* follow even their own religion.

I don't follow my own religion? How do you know?

Your problem is that what you say was true only for its time. As we Christians say, in B.C. Israel was the only chosen nation. But in A.D. there wasn't any "chosen nation" any longer.

Paul says that Christians are chosen. So no, you're just swapping one group for another.

How do I know this? The same way you say the Bible was written in Hebrew and Chaldean, I would say the Bible was translated into Greek and into all other languages. Therefore, God chose Israel and gave them their Bible in order to eventually share their Bible with the rest of the world.

I agree with this statement. The Jews were and are God's moral pilot project to the rest of the world. Christians are our younger siblings in this.

It doesn't matter if you, as a Jew, reject the NT. The fact is, the Bible has been translated into all other languages, and Christianity now is the dominant religion on earth.

That doesn't make it correct however.

Nobody's talking about magic. I'm talking about what God did in history. At the very point where Israel rejected Christ, their Bible began to be taught to all other nations. And I agree--that was a good thing.

I would say that it was God's plan that the bible's values spread to the world, via Christianity (and other religion). That doesn't mean the Jews were wrong in rejecting those religions, it means that God used Judaism as a springboard for spreading the bible's values. But God's covenant with Israel is permanent, just as the bible says.

Here's where I have greater depth than you, in the matter of critiquing other Christians. That's because I was born into Christianity, and can criticize my own, just as you are best equipped to criticize your own kind.

You don't seem to have any problem criticizing Jews.

Would you call the Prophets "bad saints" because they criticized Israel?

No, but, and this is a really big thing, they criticized Judaism while remaining Jews. They went into exile with their fellow Jews. Your criticizing Judaism from the outside, to score points and bolster your own beliefs, which have nothing to do with Judaism. It's a huge difference.

Oh, I most definitely do. Christians are given the authorization from God to judge others, assuming it is not personal judgment, but only God's judgment.

How coincidental that your values exactly align with God's. That you can criticize others in His stead.

I will always feel devastated for the Jewish People when bringing up the Holocaust....So I don't wish to address any subject with that subject in the background.

I do wish to bring it up and I do wish it in the background. Jews went into the gas chambers singing "I believe" because they loved God and accepted His judgement. If that bothers you then it is your problem.

[RabbiKnife]

Question:  does anyone here that believes in a rapture event believe that some Christians ("the ones who are READY") will be removed from the earth and that other Christians ("the ones who are not READY") will be "Left Behind?"

[keraz]

Question:  does anyone here that believes in a rapture event believe that some Christians ("the ones who are READY") will be removed from the earth and that other Christians ("the ones who are not READY") will be "Left Behind?"

The 'rapture to heaven' theory is a false teaching. Nowhere does the Bible say that people will ever live in heaven. Eventually God and therefore heaven; come to the earth, for Eternity, Revelation 21:1-7
The 'rapture' is a lie, from the father of lies.

[Fenris]

Question:  does anyone here that believes in a rapture event believe that some Christians ("the ones who are READY") will be removed from the earth and that other Christians ("the ones who are not READY") will be "Left Behind?"

Ooo that would make a good book!

[agnostic]

The 'rapture' is a lie, from the father of lies.

Sometimes bad theology just comes from bad reading comprehension, which is a much more widespread problem in the field of "Bible study" than is usually acknowledged.

Not everything you disagree with needs to be attributed to a conspiracy by the supreme architect of all evil in the universe. Sheesh.

[Athanasius]

The 'rapture' is a lie, from the father of lies.

Sometimes bad theology just comes from bad reading comprehension, which is a much more widespread problem in the field of "Bible study" than is usually acknowledged.

Not everything you disagree with needs to be attributed to a conspiracy by the supreme architect of all evil in the universe. Sheesh.

Don't be silly! It's much easier to discount and ignore people when you think they're deceived by Satan, than it is to realise that you could be wrong, or someone could be genuinely mistaken, or find compelling what you don't find compelling, etc. etc.

[RandyPNW]

We see this different because I see the reduction from the nation Israel to an individual called "Israel" as a literary feature. It is Messianic to the core.

You see it this way because it's a central feature of your faith. And that's because you see everything in the bible through the lens of the NT. Because the NT is not holy writ to me, I don't see my bible in the same way that you do.

Right, and you don't see the NT as holy writ because of your Jewish faith. That seems to be the perennial obstacle of Jews in accepting Christianity as true, that Judaism wants converts to their faith to adopt a cultural religion--one that embraces, primarily, the history of Israel.

By contrast, Christianity seeks converts so as to convert them not to a specific culture, but rather, to God and to a means of salvation that is not ethnocentric. What would I, as a Gentile, prefer--to revere Passover, the escape of a single nation from their Egyptian oppressors, or look to a form of redemption that embraces the entire world and reveres Christ as Savior, not just of Israel, but of the whole world?

[RandyPNW]

Question:  does anyone here that believes in a rapture event believe that some Christians ("the ones who are READY") will be removed from the earth and that other Christians ("the ones who are not READY") will be "Left Behind?"

I certainly hope not! I'm just about finished reading "Not Afraid of the Antichrist," by Michael L. Brown and Craig S. Keener. Fine job of presenting the Postrib argument.