saving individuals or nations?

[Athanasius]

Google translate tells me that this means "philological guinea pigs". I love this place! Even the rebukes are highbrow.

Ha! I was going for something like, philological partner (in the faith), with the implication that said partner prefers excessive argument.

But viewing the text as a sword to separate brothers isn't the way to go, in my opinion. Jesus separated the sheep from the goats. But he went after the one lost sheep, right? That is also in the text!

Er, what do sheep, goats, and shepherding have to do with the proper dividing of the word? There is a Berean impulse behind CONSPICILLUM's philological push. What's offputting isn't the practice itself, but the attitude and relationship that's followed from this push.

[RandyPNW]

But viewing the text as a sword to separate brothers isn't the way to go, in my opinion. Jesus separated the sheep from the goats. But he went after the one lost sheep, right? That is also in the text!

Er, what do sheep, goats, and shepherding have to do with the proper dividing of the word? There is a Berean impulse behind CONSPICILLUM's philological push. What's offputting isn't the practice itself, but the attitude and relationship that's followed from this push.

The dividing of the word is noble. But as I said, my brother and I have had many discussions, with his focus on the text and my focus on theology. And we don't always see eye to eye.

The temptation is to get frustrated, because neither approach resolves every problem definitively. If anybody is looking for the golden key to solve every interpretive problem, they won't find it, because our own myopia and pride are the problem. We're defective and impatient. We don't always see clearly, as Paul said.

So we have to combine integrity in studying the text with an emphasis on spirituality, without which we are not renewed and don't generate the character and virtues of Christ. That will ensure that even if we understand nothing, we'll still be good people and can enjoy a measure of brotherhood. Right?

In other words, I believe we're saying much the same thing. Good study-Bereans. Good character-spiritual emphasis when studying.

I've heard it said for years that we can use the word of God as a sword for killing or for edifying and correction. When we use our understanding as a battering ram, we're not really understanding.

We shouldn't be dividing brothers over the "truth we know." Rather, if someone is lost and confused, we should seek them out and try to give them aid, rather than expose them as "idiots" who aren't worth the time of day.

[Athanasius]

I've heard it said for years that we can use the word of God as a sword for killing or for edifying and correction. When we use our understanding as a battering ram, we're not really understanding.

We shouldn't be dividing brothers over the "truth we know." Rather, if someone is lost and confused, we should seek them out and try to give them aid, rather than expose them as "idiots" who aren't worth the time of day.

Yes, well, except when it comes to stubborn obstinance. But it's a forum, so what else is expected.

[ProDeo]

You cite Isaiah 53 and it's a perfect example of that. First of all, the chapter break is wrong and breaks the flow of the text. Chapter 53 should properly begin at 52:13. And more than that, it's not its own book, it is part of  a much longer book. Who is this mysterious "suffering servant"? If one read just that chapter, which does not identify the servant, they wouldn't know and would be willing to listen to any identity someone proposed. But if one read Isaiah 40 straight through to 53, they'd find the servant identified, by name, numerous times. And what's the connection of 53 to the surrounding material? Chapter 52 and 54 talk about the redemption of Zion, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the ingathering of the exiles. It would seem logical that chapter 53 would have a meaning pertaining to that topic. But it's not understood that way by most Christians.

Hey Fenris, long time no see.

The servant obviously is a person. I can't name anyone in the OT who qualifies. You?

[Fenris]

Hey Fenris, long time no see.

Hiya!

The servant obviously is a person.

Why is the servant "obviously" a person? Isaiah very clearly names national Israel as God's servant multiple times. To wit-

Is 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend. I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’

Is 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen"...

Is 44:1 But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.

Is 45:4 For the sake of Jacob My servant and Israel My chosen one

Is 49:3 He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”


We could debate all day about whether the servant in 53 is an individual or national Israel (and we may!) but there's nothing logically incorrect about interpreting the servant as national Israel. Even some Christian commentators have accepted this reading.

[ProDeo]

Of course I understand the Jewish perception, you don't ours?

I read Isa 52:13-53 once again and it so perfectly fits the Christian understanding upon total denial if otherwise.

13 Behold, my servant shall act wisely;
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.

14 As many were astonished at you—
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—

15 so shall he sprinkle  many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand.

1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.

3  He was despised and rejected  by men;
a man of sorrows,  and acquainted with  grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

And so on for the rest of the chapter, in the Christian perspective Isa 53 is not about a nation but about a person. A person not found in the OT, thus in the future, he can't be the victorious Messiah Judaism expects since: because he poured out his soul to death (v12), so who is the person Isa 53 speaks of?

I could go on.

[Fenris]

Of course I understand the Jewish perception

Do you, though? Because I've addressed this many times and yet here we are again as if I've never said anything at all.

I read Isa 52:13-53 once again and it so perfectly fits the Christian understanding upon total denial if otherwise.

Why start at 52:13, though? Aren't the surrounding chapters also relevant to our understanding? Isaiah 53 isn't its own book, it is part of a larger book.

What is the subject of chapter 52?

Awake, awake, Zion,
    clothe yourself with strength!
Put on your garments of splendor,
    Jerusalem, the holy city.
The uncircumcised and defiled
    will not enter you again.
 Shake off your dust;
    rise up, sit enthroned, Jerusalem.

snip

Burst into songs of joy together,
    you ruins of Jerusalem,
for the Lord has comforted his people,
    he has redeemed Jerusalem.
 The Lord will lay bare his holy arm
    in the sight of all the nations,
and all the ends of the earth will see
    the salvation of our God.

In short, the redemption of Zion at the end of days.

What is the subject of chapter 54?

The Lord will call you back
    as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
    only to be rejected,” says your God.
 “For a brief moment I abandoned you,
    but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
 In a surge of anger
    I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
    I will have compassion on you,”
    says the Lord your Redeemer.

Again, this is the redemption of Zion and the return of the Jewish exiles.

This is not from another book in the bible. This is from the chapters right before 53. And so it provides context. Chapter 53, too, takes place at the end of days. So let's begin. What happens at the end of days?



Behold, my servant shall act wisely;
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.

OK, the servant will be exalted. This tells us nothing about who it is. You seem to find the fact that the "servant" is mentioned in singular means that it has to be an individual. As I've pointed out, this is not so. God refers to national Israel as His "servant" many times, and I provided 5 such quotes that you unfortunate ignored.

Let's continue.

As many were astonished at you—
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—



The servant was viewed as inhuman. Again, this doesn't tell us who it is. Although Jesus is never referred to as "inhuman" in the NT. Historically, unfortunately, the Jews have been viewed this way though.


so shall he sprinkle  many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand.

I prefer the alternate translation "he shall startle many nations". In any case, the world's leaders will be surprised by the servant's identity. Which begs a question: Which would be more startling, the world's 2.3 billion Christians being right, or the world's 13 million Jews being right?  Just throwing that out there?

Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Ok, now who is the speaker here? It seems logical to me that the speaker is the startled kings from the last verse.

For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected  by men;
a man of sorrows,  and acquainted with  grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

How does any of this describe Jesus, who was quite popular according to the NT? On the other hand, it describes Jewish history very well.

And so on for the rest of the chapter, in the Christian perspective Isa 53 is not about a nation but about a person.

Yes, I understand this. But that isn't the only way to read it, nor is it illogical to see the individual as national Israel who are, after all, referred to as God's servant. Shall I post the verses again?

A person not found in the OT, thus in the future,

Why would anyone think this person was in the past? All of Isaiah from chapter 40 and on is describing future events.

he can't be the victorious Messiah Judaism expects

Jews don't think it's referring to the messiah.

because he poured out his soul to death (v12), so who is the person Isa 53 speaks of?

It also says the servant will go like a sheep to the slaughter, which is exactly how the Jewish Holocaust is described.

I could go on.

I can do this all day.

[ProDeo]

I could go on.

I can do this all day.

 

because he poured out his soul to death (v12), so who is the person Isa 53 speaks of?

It also says the servant will go like a sheep to the slaughter, which is exactly how the Jewish Holocaust is described.

Israel (the Jewish people) never died, that would be against God's promises anyway, the person in Isa 53 did.

I am not really impressed by the context of the surrounding chapters (<53 and >54), chapter 53 has a total different dynamic, it's as if it doesn't belong there, but of course it does.

I guess it all comes down if you believe in the Gospel or not. If I were born in a traditional Jewish family, went to the synagogue each week I would probably say the same things as you.

One more thing, v12 - yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

How do you interpret that and how it can be linked to Israel.

[Fenris]

Israel (the Jewish people) never died, that would be against God's promises anyway

Never died? Slaughtered wholesale by the millions in the last century.

I am not really impressed by the context of the surrounding chapters (<53 and >54)

It doesn't matter if you're impressed or not. You don't get to pretend that Isaiah 53 is its own book in the bible, because it isn't. The servant is identified by name, yet you won't even acknowledge the verses that  I posted.

I guess it all comes down if you believe in the Gospel or not.

And that's the sum of the matter right there. Although as I have said, there are Christian commentators who believe as I do, that the servant is national Israel.

One more thing, v12 - yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

How do you interpret that and how it can be linked to Israel.

On Yom Kippur, the biblical day of atonement, we spend all day in prayer and contemplation. We confess a lengthy list of sins and ask for forgiveness for all of them. This includes sins that I, personally, have not committed.  The request for forgiveness is thus communal, and even more, covering all of humanity. Yes, On Yom Kippur I ask for forgiveness for all transgressions of mankind. Similarly, in Temple times the number of bulls sacrificed over Sukkot totaled 70, which is the number of nations in the world (see Genesis 10). The Talmud states that if the Romans knew how much good was done on their behalf by temple sacrifice, they never would have destroyed it.

[ProDeo]

Israel (the Jewish people) never died, that would be against God's promises anyway

Never died? Slaughtered wholesale by the millions in the last century.

You know, I am raised pro Israel, till the age of 30 collected the stamps of Israel. When I became a Christian at the age of 24 and started to explore the Bible I became a bit jealous on Jews, wow the chosen people of God! what a privilege! But when knowledge increased and I became aware of all the persecutions Jews went through the centuries the jealously disappeared rapidly. Even now today, the world is still mad with Jews. There is no race (or nation, entity) in history that has been persecuted so much as Jews. So where is all that hate coming from? Obviously the answer is a spiritual one, somewhere in the Bible, let the speculations (and disagreements) begin, but maybe better not.

I am not in agreement with your statement, despite all the horrors the Jewish people never died, the person in Isa 53 did die. You are still with how many millions? And since 1948 you are on the map again. And that's what the Lord has promised you.

I guess it all comes down if you believe in the Gospel or not.

And that's the sum of the matter right there. Although as I have said, there are Christian commentators who believe as I do, that the servant is national Israel.

Exactly and for me counts that the NT on several places refers to Isa 53 being the Christ.

One more thing, v12 - yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

How do you interpret that and how it can be linked to Israel.

On Yom Kippur, the biblical day of atonement, we spend all day in prayer and contemplation. We confess a lengthy list of sins and ask for forgiveness for all of them. This includes sins that I, personally, have not committed.  The request for forgiveness is thus communal, and even more, covering all of humanity. Yes, On Yom Kippur I ask for forgiveness for all transgressions of mankind. Similarly, in Temple times the number of bulls sacrificed over Sukkot totaled 70, which is the number of nations in the world (see Genesis 10). The Talmud states that if the Romans knew how much good was done on their behalf by temple sacrifice, they never would have destroyed it.

Fenris, that's awesome, I did not know.

[Fenris]

You know, I am raised pro Israel, till the age of 30 collected the stamps of Israel. When I became a Christian at the age of 24 and started to explore the Bible I became a bit jealous on Jews, wow the chosen people of God! what a privilege! But when knowledge increased and I became aware of all the persecutions Jews went through the centuries the jealously disappeared rapidly. Even now today, the world is still mad with Jews. There is no race (or nation, entity) in history that has been persecuted so much as Jews. So where is all that hate coming from? Obviously the answer is a spiritual one, somewhere in the Bible, let the speculations (and disagreements) begin,

I find this a laughable theological point. Jesus warns his followers that "You will be hated because of me" (this is all over Matthew). So your point being that when Christians are hated, it's a good thing, but when Jews are hated, it's a bad thing?! It's simpler to say that Jews and Christians are hated for the same reason, because they represent the monotheistic deity Who has expectations from mankind that people would rather not be.

I am not in agreement with your statement, despite all the horrors the Jewish people never died, the person in Isa 53 did die.

Actually, what is says is "because he poured out his soul to death..." Which is to say, the servant was willing to die. And Jews were willing to die, and millions did; and not just in the 20th century, but over the last 20 centuries. It also says "he shall see children, he shall prolong his days" and yup, we are still here.

Exactly and for me counts that the NT on several places refers to Isa 53 being the Christ.

It doesn't directly in any place. And what's more, none of his disciples see it as a fulfillment of anything.

Fenris, that's awesome, I did not know.

We both learned things in this discussion. Awesome!