saving individuals or nations?

[Fenris]

I'm genuinely convinced most Christians who read the Bible regularly don't know how to read it at all. Everything is a proof-text waiting to be quoted in a debate, or when building elaborate systems of theology. Nothing is part of a book.

I think this is correct. And it doesn't make sense to me. But then, I am not a Christian. Perhaps this is part of why Christian arguments are so unconvincing to biblically literate Jews. You can't just take a verse and separate it from a chapter, or a chapter and separate it from a book. This is especially true since the whole chapter convention wasn't even originally in the books, it was only added in the Middle Ages. And in some cases the chapter breaks are clearly unnatural.

You cite Isaiah 53 and it's a perfect example of that. First of all, the chapter break is wrong and breaks the flow of the text. Chapter 53 should properly begin at 52:13. And more than that, it's not its own book, it is part of  a much longer book. Who is this mysterious "suffering servant"? If one read just that chapter, which does not identify the servant, they wouldn't know and would be willing to listen to any identity someone proposed. But if one read Isaiah 40 straight through to 53, they'd find the servant identified, by name, numerous times. And what's the connection of 53 to the surrounding material? Chapter 52 and 54 talk about the redemption of Zion, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the ingathering of the exiles. It would seem logical that chapter 53 would have a meaning pertaining to that topic. But it's not understood that way by most Christians.

keraz clearly knows how to find a verse and make it work in their grand end times timeline, but only when the verse is entirely isolated and the context all around it is willfully ignored.

As observed.

[RandyPNW]

I'm genuinely convinced most Christians who read the Bible regularly don't know how to read it at all. Everything is a proof-text waiting to be quoted in a debate, or when building elaborate systems of theology. Nothing is part of a book.

I think this is correct. And it doesn't make sense to me. But then, I am not a Christian. Perhaps this is part of why Christian arguments are so unconvincing to biblically literate Jews. You can't just take a verse and separate it from a chapter, or a chapter and separate it from a book. This is especially true since the whole chapter convention wasn't even originally in the books, it was only added in the Middle Ages. And in some cases the chapter breaks are clearly unnatural.

You cite Isaiah 53 and it's a perfect example of that. First of all, the chapter break is wrong and breaks the flow of the text. Chapter 53 should properly begin at 52:13. And more than that, it's not its own book, it is part of  a much longer book. Who is this mysterious "suffering servant"? If one read just that chapter, which does not identify the servant, they wouldn't know and would be willing to listen to any identity someone proposed. But if one read Isaiah 40 straight through to 53, they'd find the servant identified, by name, numerous times. And what's the connection of 53 to the surrounding material? Chapter 52 and 54 talk about the redemption of Zion, the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and the ingathering of the exiles. It would seem logical that chapter 53 would have a meaning pertaining to that topic. But it's not understood that way by most Christians.

Both Christians and Jews tend to be "biblically illiterate" overall. That's because most people are not interested in being Bible scholars. To follow a religion is not equal with religious scholarship. Being "devotional" is sufficient for being "religious."

Isa 53 is viewed by more studied Christians as an "allusion" to Christ as much as a prophecy of Christ. Many messianic prophecies were given through the imagery of earlier times, well before his coming. Israel itself is used as a foreshadowing of Messiah, as were the many great biblical leaders of Israel. Joseph, for example, is a great foreshadowing of Messiah for Christians.

But you would not, for this reason, state that the prophecy is illegitimate, simply because Joseph is used for Messiah! I don't think either Christians or Jews would be unduly upset with the idea that Messiah is foreshadowed in Israel?

[Fenris]

Both Christians and Jews tend to be "biblically illiterate" overall.

I don't think it's proper to make vast sweeping statements like this. It's not about literate vs illiterate. It's about the entire approach to the bible. For example-

Isa 53 is viewed by more studied Christians as an "allusion" to Christ as much as a prophecy of Christ. Many messianic prophecies were given through the imagery of earlier times, well before his coming. Israel itself is used as a foreshadowing of Messiah, as were the many great biblical leaders of Israel. Joseph, for example, is a great foreshadowing of Messiah for Christians.

But you would not, for this reason, state that the prophecy is illegitimate, simply because Joseph is used for Messiah!

It's not a prophecy though. It's a story of something that occurred. Taking a story and saying it's a prophecy because of convoluted "connect the dots" to a desired outcome is tampering with God's word.

I don't think either Christians or Jews would be unduly upset with the idea that Messiah is foreshadowed in Israel?

The messiah isn't "foreshadowed" at all. There are explicate messianic prophecies like say Isaiah 11. And then there's the rest of the bible, which stands on its own, telling its own stories and teaching its own lessons, all having nothing whatsoever to do with the messiah.

If you believe that say, Isaiah 53 is about national Israel, then say so. 

[RandyPNW]

Both Christians and Jews tend to be "biblically illiterate" overall.

I don't think it's proper to make vast sweeping statements like this. It's not about literate vs illiterate. It's about the entire approach to the bible. For example-

Isa 53 is viewed by more studied Christians as an "allusion" to Christ as much as a prophecy of Christ. Many messianic prophecies were given through the imagery of earlier times, well before his coming. Israel itself is used as a foreshadowing of Messiah, as were the many great biblical leaders of Israel. Joseph, for example, is a great foreshadowing of Messiah for Christians.

But you would not, for this reason, state that the prophecy is illegitimate, simply because Joseph is used for Messiah!

It's not a prophecy though. It's a story of something that occurred. Taking a story and saying it's a prophecy because of convoluted "connect the dots" to a desired outcome is tampering with God's word.

I don't think either Christians or Jews would be unduly upset with the idea that Messiah is foreshadowed in Israel?

The messiah isn't "foreshadowed" at all. There are explicate messianic prophecies like say Isaiah 11. And then there's the rest of the bible, which stands on its own, telling its own stories and teaching its own lessons, all having nothing whatsoever to do with the messiah.

If you believe that say, Isaiah 53 is about national Israel, then say so.

I think Isa 53 is indeed a *prophecy* of Messiah. But the style is of using a symbol of Messiah in order to communicate him using imagery that the current generation can benefit from. And so, the imagery consists of use of the figure of "Israel" to convey that a Messiah *like Israel* is coming to deliver the people from their sins, and thus from their judgment by God.

I don't get to decide how Messianic Prophecy is given. God wrote "His book" the way He wanted to, sometimes more specific about Messiah, and sometimes less specific. How can one see in "Eve's offspring" in Gen 3 a prophecy of Messiah? It is certainly not clear. And yet it appears to be a Messianic prophecy.

I will indeed make broad sweeping judgments about the "literacy" of both Jews and Christians, because this is the obvious state of mankind everywhere. No matter how much education is delivered, relatively little is picked up by the masses. Sometimes this is due to irresponsibility, but sometimes it is simply due to people having different gifts. So it doesn't have to be a condemnatory statement.

Both Jews and Christians would do well to make their religious decisions based not on a consensus opinion of their own, but rather, on their own studies. Bias tends to rule in every group. And yes, that is a broad, sweeping statement that is true!

[Fenris]

I think Isa 53 is indeed a *prophecy* of Messiah.

OK, so see, this means ignoring the context of the surrounding chapters and the fact that the servant is named numerous times. This was my point and you're proving it.

But the style is of using a symbol of Messiah in order to communicate him using imagery that the current generation can benefit from. And so, the imagery consists of use of the figure of "Israel" to convey that a Messiah *like Israel* is coming to deliver the people from their sins, and thus from their judgment by God.

So... is 53 about Israel, or not?

I don't get to decide how Messianic Prophecy is given.

No, but you get to decide whether a given passage is or isn't. Again, Isaiah 11 is explicitly messianic. Isaiah 53? Eh.

God wrote "His book" the way He wanted to, sometimes more specific about Messiah, and sometimes less specific. How can one see in "Eve's offspring" in Gen 3 a prophecy of Messiah? It is certainly not clear. And yet it appears to be a Messianic prophecy.

Not to me. Again, what's the context?

I will indeed make broad sweeping judgments about the "literacy" of both Jews and Christians, because this is the obvious state of mankind everywhere. No matter how much education is delivered, relatively little is picked up by the masses. Sometimes this is due to irresponsibility, but sometimes it is simply due to people having different gifts. So it doesn't have to be a condemnatory statement.

My experience is then when people make statements like this, they consider themselves to be "literate" and anyone who agrees with them "illiterate". In other words, it's self serving.

Both Jews and Christians would do well to make their religious decisions based not on a consensus opinion of their own, but rather, on their own studies. Bias tends to rule in every group. And yes, that is a broad, sweeping statement that is true!

As is this.

[RandyPNW]

I view Isaiah as speaking of the nation "Israel" as God's "servant." And then there is a perceptible differentiation between the nation and an individual representing that nation.

You are either seeing the nation being presented, symbolically, as an individual going through suffering, or you're seeing an individual emerging as representative of the whole nation. I take the latter view.

I don't feel I'm destroying interpretive rules in doing this. Rather, I find this to be a literary device, as a normal figure of speech. Conversation about the nation takes a deliberate turn to an esoteric messianic figure.

And why so esoteric? Why so mysterious? I think it's because the Scriptures portray understanding as taking place not with the vast majority in Israel, but largely only with an small elite, who are faithful to God. It's as if this truth is being reserved for those who have "eyes to see."

[Fenris]

I view Isaiah as speaking of the nation "Israel" as God's "servant."

Very good. Gold star! It's what the text says too. 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend 41:9 I brought you from the ends of the earth and called you from its farthest corners. I said, 'You are My servant.' I have chosen and not rejected you.44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: 44:21 Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are My servant, O Israel. I have made you, and you are My servant; O Israel, I will never forget you. 45:4 For the sake of Jacob My servant and Israel who I have chosen, I call you by name

and so on.

You are either seeing the nation being presented, symbolically, as an individual going through suffering,

That's not how I see it at all. God has identified the servant as the nation of Israel. That's it. Now we have to see how chapter 53 works. It's sandwiched between two other chapters, each talking about the redemption of Zion and the ingathering of the Jewish exiles in the messianic era. So what's the point and purpose of chapter 53? In that context, it's showing the perspective of the other nations. Starting with 52:13 (which basically everyone believes should have been the actual beginning of chapter 53)

Behold My servant shall prosper; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness— so he will startle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

What's going on here? God's servant, Israel, will be raised up in the messianic era. Many were appalled at the Jews- accusing them of not even being human -and they will be startled with the knowledge that the Jews were God's servant all along. The leaders of nations won't even know what to say. Thus begins chapter 53 "Who would have believed our report?"

[keraz]

What's going on here? God's servant, Israel, will be raised up in the messianic era. Many were appalled at the Jews- accusing them of not even being human -and they will be startled with the knowledge that the Jews were God's servant all along. The leaders of nations won't even know what to say. Thus begins chapter 53 "Who would have believed our report?"

Unfortunately, this belief suits those people who believe in the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
The Jews will be punished for rejecting Jesus, but then saved and redeemed.  The Christians sit in heaven, doing what; they don't know.

Unfortunately again; these beliefs do not conform with what the Bible prophets tell us.

But what is really unfortunate, is the virtually total lack of knowledge of what the Lord actually does plan for His people and the world, in the end times.

[Fenris]

Unfortunately, this belief suits those people who believe in the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
The Jews will be punished for rejecting Jesus, but then saved and redeemed.  The Christians sit in heaven, doing what; they don't know.

I have no opinion on this.

Unfortunately again; these beliefs do not conform with what the Bible prophets tell us.

I don't see why not. What I just said was perfectly sensible, and even some Christians believe it to be true.

But what is really unfortunate, is the virtually total lack of knowledge of what the Lord actually does plan for His people and the world, in the end times.

Isaiah 60:

Arise, shine, for your light has come,
    and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.
2 See, darkness covers the earth
    and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the Lord rises upon you
    and his glory appears over you.
3 Nations will come to your light,
    and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

4 “Lift up your eyes and look about you:
    All assemble and come to you;
your sons come from afar,
    and your daughters are carried on the hip.
5 Then you will look and be radiant,
    your heart will throb and swell with joy;
the wealth on the seas will be brought to you,
    to you the riches of the nations will come.
6 Herds of camels will cover your land,
    young camels of Midian and Ephah.
And all from Sheba will come,
    bearing gold and incense
    and proclaiming the praise of the Lord.
7 All Kedar’s flocks will be gathered to you,
    the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
    and I will adorn my glorious temple.

8 “Who are these that fly along like clouds,
    like doves to their nests?
9 Surely the islands look to me;
    in the lead are the ships of Tarshish,
bringing your children from afar,
    with their silver and gold,
to the honor of the Lord your God,
    the Holy One of Israel,
    for he has endowed you with splendor.

10 “Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
    and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
    in favor I will show you compassion.
11 Your gates will always stand open,
    they will never be shut, day or night,
so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations—
    their kings led in triumphal procession.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
    it will be utterly ruined.

13 “The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
    the juniper, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn my sanctuary;
    and I will glorify the place for my feet.
14 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
    all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the Lord,
    Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

15 “Although you have been forsaken and hated,
    with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
    and the joy of all generations.
16 You will drink the milk of nations
    and be nursed at royal breasts.
Then you will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior,
    your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
17 Instead of bronze I will bring you gold,
    and silver in place of iron.
Instead of wood I will bring you bronze,
    and iron in place of stones.
I will make peace your governor
    and well-being your ruler.
18 No longer will violence be heard in your land,
    nor ruin or destruction within your borders,
but you will call your walls Salvation
    and your gates Praise.
19 The sun will no more be your light by day,
    nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the Lord will be your everlasting light,
    and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun will never set again,
    and your moon will wane no more;
the Lord will be your everlasting light,
    and your days of sorrow will end.
21 Then all your people will be righteous
    and they will possess the land forever.
They are the shoot I have planted,
    the work of my hands,
    for the display of my splendor.
22 The least of you will become a thousand,
    the smallest a mighty nation.
I am the Lord;
    in its time I will do this swiftly.”

[keraz]

Actually, a lot of Christians do believe in a Jewish redemption, As i said, it suits their false belief of their being 'raptured to heaven.  Neither is prophesied to happen.

Isaiah 60:2 mentions darkness covering the earth.

Many other prophesies tell about this literal event:
Isaiah 13:10 The sun, moon and stars will give no light.
Ezekiel 32:7-8 I will veil the sky with clouds and bring darkness over the land.
Zephaniah 1:15 The Day of the Lord’s anger will be a Day of destruction, of darkness and gloom.
Amos 8:9 On that Day, the sun will darken at noon. [after the initial flash]
Revelation 6:12...the sun turned black as a funeral pall and the whole moon blood red.
Psalms 18:11 He made thick darkness His covering, dense vapor His canopy.
Jeremiah 4:23 The earth was in chaos and the sky was in darkness.

It is part of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the forthcoming day in the magnitude of what happen in the days of Noah. Over 100 Bible prophesied graphically detail this sudden and shocking event.

We should know all about it and be prepared for it mentally and physically. If not it is us that is in the dark.
1 Thessalonians 5:4

[Fenris]

Isaiah 60:2 mentions darkness covering the earth.

And that's the only verse in the whole chapter that you are interested in. Because you cherry pick verses that support your own particular ideology, and ignore the rest. In this case, you pretend that 21 of the chapter's 22 verses don't even exist.

[keraz]

Isaiah 60:2 mentions darkness covering the earth.

And that's the only verse in the whole chapter that you are interested in. Because you cherry pick verses that support your own particular ideology, and ignore the rest. In this case, you pretend that 21 of the chapter's 22 verses don't even exist.

If you had the moral fortitude to read any of the over 800 articles on my logostelos website, you would see how wrong your accusation is.

Isaiah 60 is a chapter about how the righteous people of God will inhabit the holy Land. His Light to the nations, Isaiah 60:20-22
Quite a different people to the current inhabitants of all the holy Land.

[Fenris]

If you had the moral fortitude to read any of the over 800 articles on my logostelos website

"I wrote over 800 articles, so my opinion must be right".

Isaiah 60 is a chapter about how the righteous people of God will inhabit the holy Land.

Verse 10: Though in anger I struck you, in favor I will show you compassion.

God struck the righteous people? Or more likely, God struck the original inhabitants of the land, and exiled them for their sins, but will show compassion. Hence verse 4: your sons come from afar, and your daughters are carried on the hip coming home from their long exile.

Quite a different people to the current inhabitants of all the holy Land.

Amazingly, the prophets over 2500 years ago stated with complete confidence that the Jews would return to the land. And it happened in our lifetime. Yet this fulfilled prophecy means nothing to you.

[RandyPNW]

I view Isaiah as speaking of the nation "Israel" as God's "servant."

Very good. Gold star! It's what the text says too. 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend 41:9 I brought you from the ends of the earth and called you from its farthest corners. I said, 'You are My servant.' I have chosen and not rejected you.44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: 44:21 Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are My servant, O Israel. I have made you, and you are My servant; O Israel, I will never forget you. 45:4 For the sake of Jacob My servant and Israel who I have chosen, I call you by name

and so on.

You are either seeing the nation being presented, symbolically, as an individual going through suffering,

That's not how I see it at all. God has identified the servant as the nation of Israel. That's it. Now we have to see how chapter 53 works. It's sandwiched between two other chapters, each talking about the redemption of Zion and the ingathering of the Jewish exiles in the messianic era. So what's the point and purpose of chapter 53? In that context, it's showing the perspective of the other nations. Starting with 52:13 (which basically everyone believes should have been the actual beginning of chapter 53)

Behold My servant shall prosper; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness— so he will startle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

What's going on here? God's servant, Israel, will be raised up in the messianic era. Many were appalled at the Jews- accusing them of not even being human -and they will be startled with the knowledge that the Jews were God's servant all along. The leaders of nations won't even know what to say. Thus begins chapter 53 "Who would have believed our report?"

We see this different because I see the reduction from the nation Israel to an individual called "Israel" as a literary feature. It is Messianic to the core. I may have agreed with you if it wasn't for the fact many Messianic allusions exist, and figures are used as symbols of Messiah. Why can't, then, a *nation* be used, briefly, as a symbol of Messiah?

But what makes this a compelling case for me is the reality that Jesus fulfilled this prophecy of suffering. It is so specific that no Christian can miss the description as applicable to what Jesus went through on behalf of the nation Israel. He bore their abuses at a time of terrible Jewish corruption.

Some Christians love to characterize the Jewish People for all time as they were at this one time. The same often characterize the State Church the way it was during the Inquisition. But these are false stereotypes.

Israel had good times and bad times. In the time Jesus died, Israel's sins were at their full measure, as indicated, I believe by Dan 9.24. But Israel, though remaining hostile to Christian conversion, has not always remained hostile to Christians.

So I wouldn't characterize the Jewish People the way many Christians do, as if they are in a constant state of hostility towards Christians. Nor should we characterize the Christian Church the way many Christians characterize the Catholic Church as if it is still engaging in the Inquisition. Over time, nations and institutions change.

[Fenris]

We see this different because I see the reduction from the nation Israel to an individual called "Israel" as a literary feature. It is Messianic to the core.

You see it this way because it's a central feature of your faith. And that's because you see everything in the bible through the lens of the NT. Because the NT is not holy writ to me, I don't see my bible in the same way that you do.