saving individuals or nations?

[RandyPNW]

This subject is controversial, but I'd like to share my opinion that God saves nations, as well as individuals. These two concepts are, however, different in their substance. Individual Salvation is a matter of being spiritually reborn, and completely changed on the inside into a new creature so that God can be properly put 1st in everything. But national salvation has to do with preserving the infrastructure of government, society, and people so that an entire organization of people can be blessed by the interrelationship of many unique talents. God wishes to save both individuals and nations in this way.

National Salvation is more like deliverance in wartime, such as deliverance from an enemy. It is the preservation of the entire national structure against the threat of some outside force wishing to destroy it. The OT Scriptures were focused many times on the preservation of the nation Israel, because God promised Abraham natural descendants would form into a nation and an eternal testimony to His faithfulness. It was a reward for the righteousness of Abraham in his response to God's word.

I believe Israel was given, by God, to be a model for all nations, so that all nations would learn how to be righteous and to please God, so that they also would form into nations that God would preserve. We know, from the OT stories, that Israel succeeded as a nation when they were righteous, but fell as a nation when they turned against God's word and rebelled against it.

Though there are many prophecies in the Scriptures that speak of many nations bringing glory to the Lord, and causing His glory to be global, not much is mentioned specifically of "Christian nations." And so, some get the idea that since Israel seemed to have passed away, God doesn't save nations anymore.
But the reality is, God didn't mention "Christian nations" specifically because they had not yet developed in the time of the writing of the NT Scriptures. Historically, God fulfilled the 1st stage in His promises to Abraham by 1st gathering Israel as a nation, and then gathering Christian nations. God had also promised Abraham a family of faith among nations.

The last stage in fulfilling these promises God will send Christ back to judge the world, so that nations can no longer be oppressed and coerced to fall from their Christian faith. When Christ returns, both Israel and many nations will, I believe, become permanent Christian nations.

Just thought I would share this for your interest. Those who have turned against the idea of nations being saved by God are missing out, I think. They don't realize that God is restoring Israel as a nation, after all. Though Israel isn't Christian yet, God may be preparing them for final judgment before He saves them.

Furthermore, it is to our benefit to believe that nations can be saved. By the example of Israel we know that when we repent of our sins, and turn to Christ and live in righteousness, God will hear our prayers and deliver our nation. If we don't know this, we won't testify to the righteousness our nation needs to be saved! Even if the majority in our nation don't listen, it is still necessary to preach the truth of Christian righteousness, because God will use this testimony to hold those who hear accountable. He can then judge and remove the wicked to make a better place for those who are righteous.

[keraz]

The only nation of importance in the eyes of God, is the faithful Christian nation of peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

Every country of the world today consists of peoples of many mixed ethnicities. The idea that one of those countries has a special place in God's heart, is quite wrong.

As Ezekiel 34:11-16 tells us, it will only be after a Day of darkness, that the faithful 'sheep' of the Christians, will be gathered and brought out of the world, into their own Land, where God will nurture them.
THEY will be the Hephzibar people of God and their land; Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

[agnostic]

As Ezekiel 34:11-16 tells us, it will only be after a Day of darkness, that the faithful 'sheep' of the Christians, will be gathered and brought out of the world, into their own Land, where God will nurture them.

Ezekiel 34 does not mention Christians.

[keraz]

It talks about the Lord's faithful sheep. The people Jesus described in John 10:1-27

Ezekiel 34:11-31 For the Lord says: Now I will take thought for My sheep [every true Christian, Rev 5:9-10] and search for them. As a shepherd gathers his flock when they are lost, so I shall rescue them from all the places that they were scattered in a Day of cloud and darkness. I shall lead them out from the nations and gather them from all the places where they were scattered and bring them home to their own country.”
The pasture for My people is the Land of Israel. They will thrive and find rest there. I shall search for the lost, bandage the injured, strengthen the sick and give My flock the proper food.
Now, I shall judge between the fat sheep and the lean. You rams and goats, [bad leaders]  have taken the best pastures and muddied the drinking water. Therefore I will save My flock and they will be ravaged no more. Zephaniah 3:1-8
I shall set over them My servant David he will care for them and will be their God. I shall make a covenant with them to ensure peace and prosperity. The Land will bear great crops of fruit and produce. When I rescue them from the power of their enemies, then they will know that I am the Lord.
Then they will know that I am with them and they are My people. You are My flock, that I feed and I am your God. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 4:12-18, Hosea 3:1-5

His Christian people found and rescued from wherever they are after the ‘Day of cloud and darkness” - another description of the Lord’s Day of vengeance.  They are brought home to their heritage, the holy Land. Ephesians 1:11, Acts 3:25  All of His people, no matter what their health or age, will thrive and find rest. But first, they will be judged and those priests and leaders who have led their flock astray will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 14:14-16
When His faithful Christian people, out of every tribe, race, nation and language, are rescued – then they will know that; “I am with them and you are My people”.  Not yet as a visible Presence, until the Return of Jesus.  Jeremiah 14:11-16, Ezekiel 20:34-38

[keraz]

In order to understand end time events, it is necessary to be clear about the provable fact of the continued separation of the House of Judah (the Jews) from the House of Israel (the 10 Northern tribes). While, at present, about half of the world’s Jews live in the State of Israel, they do not claim descent from tribes other than Judah, Benjamin and Levi.
It is God’s plan that the ten Northern tribes of Israel and the Jews, be dispersed around the world and that Israel lose its identity; Ezekiel 36. It is them who have, in the main, become Christian.
The restoration and redemption of the Lord’s people, is a theme well covered by almost all the prophets. His people descendants of all the 12 tribes and every Christian who loves the Lord and follows His ways, Jew or Gentile.
Prophecy is quite clear about the eventual gathering of all the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16,  into the Land promised to their forefathers. When this will happen is the question to consider.  Most church teaching says this will occur at the time of Jesus’ return, when He gathers His chosen from the four corners of the earth’. Matthew 24:31. As Israel is not specified, these people will be from every race nation and language – those who have kept their faith in God and have not taken the mark of the beast.

Careful study of Scripture makes it clear that the Christian Israelites [Amos 9:8b-12] will resettle all of the Land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The current inhabitants of Greater Israel face judgement in this next prophesied event – the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 2:12-22, Ezekiel 21:6-7, Hosea 3:3-6 & 12-15, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Revelation 6:12-17
His people, the faithful Christian Israelites, from every tribe, race, nation and language,  will be saved and protected – Hosea 11:8-9. They will be the Light to the nations and will prepare for the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Ezekiel 20:36-44 ...’I will state My case with you, as in the days of Egypt’. This second Exodus of the Israelites will take place in a similar way as the first. Then both verses 42 and 44 say: ‘You will know that I am the Lord ‘. Therefore all this takes place before the return of Jesus, as then all the world will know and see His glory and presence.

We, as Christians, must lead lives that will be judged worthy, so when this gathering of His people happens – in the near future, we may be accepted to live in the Land. Isaiah 35:1-10











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[RandyPNW]

The only nation of importance in the eyes of God, is the faithful Christian nation of peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

Every country of the world today consists of peoples of many mixed ethnicities. The idea that one of those countries has a special place in God's heart, is quite wrong.

As Ezekiel 34:11-16 tells us, it will only be after a Day of darkness, that the faithful 'sheep' of the Christians, will be gathered and brought out of the world, into their own Land, where God will nurture them.
THEY will be the Hephzibar people of God and their land; Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

The problem with this, brother, is that God does use the word "nations" in His prophecies. And He did call a nation, Israel, into existence, and treated them as such.

Though I don't dispute your sense that the Church is preeminently more important that all nations, as a whole, I would say that God considered nations important along with individuals who are saved. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Saved individuals do live in nations, and it is beneficial if the nation lived in is a Christian nation, particularly when the nation is practicing their Christianity.

I would say that nations rise and fall. The same would be true of Christian nations. And just because Christian nations have fallen, and just because the Israeli nation has fallen, doesn't mean that they can't rise again.

[keraz]

Firstly;  Isaiah 40:15-17 To the Lord, all the nations are as drops in a bucket, no more than specks of dust, He reckons them as less than nothing.

Then; it will only be righteous, faithful Christian people who will go to live in all of the holy Land soon after the Lord has cleared and cleansed it.  Isaiah 62:1-5  The new Christian nation of Beulah.

Beulah won't be a part of the One World Govt, but will be under the control of the 'beast' during the final 42 months. Daniel 7:23-25, Revelation 13:5-8
After Jesus Returns, there will be only believing people on earth. Zechariah 14:3-21

[Fenris]

The nation of Israel will always exist.

Jeremiah 31

This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD Almighty is his name:
"Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD.

[keraz]

The nation of Israel will always exist.

Jeremiah 31

This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD Almighty is his name:
"Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD.

Yes, but does the Jewish State of Israel comprise all of the descendants of Israel, that is: of Jacob?

Surely from the prophesies given to Jacobs descendants also by Moses; Genesis 49:1-27 and in Deuteronomy 33:1-29, they cannot be or even representative of ALL of Jacobs posterity.
God did exile both the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes and the House of Judah, the two southern tribes. They all were scattered among the nations and just half of Judah have returned; but in apostasy.

God knows who the true Israelites are, Amos 9:9 and He promises that ALL will be gathered back some day. Isaiah 11:11-12

However at that gathering, as stated by Ezekiel 20:33-38, only the righteous will be allowed to go and live in all of the holy Land.  Isaiah 35:1-10     Obviously, this is yet to happen.

[Fenris]

Yes, but does the Jewish State of Israel comprise all of the descendants of Israel, that is: of Jacob?

It doesn't say anywhere "all the descendants of Israel". God simply says that the descendants of Israel will always be a nation. And since the Jewish people, that is to say "the descendants of Israel" have always been a distinct people, it seems safe to say that this is who God is referring to.

Surely from the prophesies given to Jacobs descendants also by Moses; Genesis 49:1-27 and in Deuteronomy 33:1-29, they cannot be or even representative of ALL of Jacobs posterity.
God did exile both the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes and the House of Judah, the two southern tribes. They all were scattered among the nations and just half of Judah have returned;

Yes, as a distinct people.

but in apostasy.

This seems presumptive. The practice of Judaism is apostasy?

God knows who the true Israelites are, Amos 9:9

Again, God says that the "descendants of Israel" will always be a nation. And the Jewish people have always been a nation, even when "scattered amongst the nations" as Amos 9:9 says.

However at that gathering, as stated by Ezekiel 20:33-38, only the righteous will be allowed to go and live in all of the holy Land. 

Verse 42 and 43 say the opposite, that the sinners will remember their wicked ways. So obviously some sinners will be brought back to the land. In fact, verse 44 and elsewhere (36:22 for example) God plainly states that He will bring the Jews back from exile not because they deserve it, but for the sake of His name.

[keraz]

all the descendants of Israel". God simply says that the descendants of Israel will always be a nation. And since the Jewish people, that is to say "the descendants of Israel" have always been a distinct people, it seems safe to say that this is who God is referring to.

Reply Keraz -
The scattered Israelites are said to be as many as the sands of the sea.
This is far more than the 8 million Jews in Israel, plus maybe another 8 mill still in dispersion.

The Northern ten tribes have not yet rejoined with Judah, Ezekiel 37 remains to be fulfilled.
Note; in Hosea 8:8 that Israel is swallowed up among the nations.

As for the religion of Judaism, maybe it is acceptable to God, but the schism's in it and the general rejection of any religion by the majority of the citizens of Israel, make that nation just like any other secular people group.
 

[Fenris]

The scattered Israelites are said to be as many as the sands of the sea.
This is far more than the 8 million Jews in Israel, plus maybe another 8 mill still in dispersion.

Who's to say how many that is? Considering that they all descended from one man, Abraham, it seems like an impressive number. Furthermore, unlike other nations who have ceased to exist (Ammonites Moabites Idumeans Hittites Assyrians Babylonians and on and on...) every generation has had millions of Jews. Over 30 centuries that amounts to a very large number of people.

The Northern ten tribes have not yet rejoined with Judah, Ezekiel 37 remains to be fulfilled.

Other aspects of 37 have also not been fulfilled. Nonetheless we are on our way.

Note; in Hosea 8:8 that Israel is swallowed up among the nations.

Where do you think we've been the last 2000 years?

As for the religion of Judaism, maybe it is acceptable to God, but the schism's in it and the general rejection of any religion by the majority of the citizens of Israel, make that nation just like any other secular people group.

Jews are not a secular people group. We are reading the same holy books, speaking the same language, and celebrating the same holy days as our ancestors did 3000 years ago. That's not trivial.

[keraz]

We have discussed this issue of who are the true people of God, before.
If I remember rightly, I said to you, Fenris; that I had attended a service at the Great Synagogue on George Street, Jerusalem.
There were very few people there and the service seemed to be just a rote show of ceremonially reading the Scroll and some chanting. My wife had to sit in splendid isolation and behind a curtain!
Statistics inform us that over half of the Israelis are atheist's.

There IS coming a terrible Day when the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land. The nation of the Jewish State of Israel, will not survive. Isaiah 22:1-14, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 25:29, Ezekiel 21:1-7, +

[Fenris]

We have discussed this issue of who are the true people of God, before.
If I remember rightly, I said to you, Fenris; that I had attended a service at the Great Synagogue on George Street, Jerusalem.
There were very few people there and the service seemed to be just a rote show of ceremonially reading the Scroll and some chanting. My wife had to sit in splendid isolation and behind a curtain!

So you went to one synagogue for one service and now you're an expert on Judaism?

Statistics inform us that over half of the Israelis are atheist's.

No. This is false. A large number of Israelis self identify as "secular". But then you ask them if they believe in God, and they answer "yes". And they keep the Sabbath. And they eat kosher food. And they keep the holidays from the bible. So obviously the word "secular" means something different to an Israeli than it does to an American.

There IS coming a terrible Day when the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land. The nation of the Jewish State of Israel, will not survive. Isaiah 22:1-14

Isaiah 22 was a warning for the Jews alive that time. Not to anyone now. My goodness, just read the chapter. Verse 15: Go, say to this steward, to Shebna the palace administrator He's long dead and buried.

Amos 2:4-5

As above. The chapter first warns Moab, a country that hasn't existed for 2500 years. It then warns the Jews at that time, not today. 

. Jeremiah 25:29,

Again, just read the chapter man. Verse 1: The word came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah...

Ezekiel 21:1-7, +

Again, just read the chapter. Stop taking verses out of context. Verse 19 Son of man, mark out two roads for the sword of the king of Babylon to take, both starting from the same country. Make a signpost where the road branches off to the city.  Mark out one road for the sword to come against Rabbah of the Ammonites and another against Judah and fortified Jerusalem.

It's a warning for those people at that time. It has no bearing on anyone today. None. Zero.

[agnostic]

My goodness, just read the chapter.

I'm genuinely convinced most Christians who read the Bible regularly don't know how to read it at all. Everything is a proof-text waiting to be quoted in a debate, or when building elaborate systems of theology. Nothing is part of a book.

I help a Christian friend who runs a study group plan out his talking points each week, as they work through a book of the New Testament verse by verse, chapter by chapter. The people in his group are constantly taking parts of the Bible out of context, or ignoring very clear statements like the ones you pointed out in your reply. They know most of the New Testament by heart, and can quote many verses from memory, but they couldn't tell you what the actual message of a chapter or book is. Isaiah 53 is about Jesus! Okay, but what are Isaiah 52 and 54 about, and how does Isaiah 53 connect to either of them? They couldn't tell you.

keraz clearly knows how to find a verse and make it work in their grand end times timeline, but only when the verse is entirely isolated and the context all around it is willfully ignored. It's really dang convenient they point to Isaiah 22 as a prophecy about the end times, but wait, no, don't read verse 15, only read the first 14 verses! When verse 15 completely undermines their entire interpretation of verses 1 to 14, cutting short like that is purposeful, to the point I question the reader's honesty.