saving individuals or nations?

[Fenris]

Right, and you don't see the NT as holy writ because of your Jewish faith. That seems to be the perennial obstacle of Jews in accepting Christianity as true

Only a Christian would refer to someone using their own holy books to remain true to their faith an "obstacle".

I don't think that Christians accepting the NT as holy writ to be an "obstacle" to anything. It is just who they are.

that Judaism wants converts to their faith

Judaism doesn't seek converts because it is not necessary. A person can be good with God without being Jewish. In fact it's easier to be good with God as a non-Jew because one just has to lead a moral life and not follow all the bible's rules. So Jews believe.

By contrast, Christianity seeks converts so as to convert them not to a specific culture, but rather, to God and to a means of salvation that is not ethnocentric.

Jews don't believe that a person needs "salvation," and so the concept Jesus's sacrifice and Christianity in general becomes unnecessary.

[RandyPNW]

Right, and you don't see the NT as holy writ because of your Jewish faith. That seems to be the perennial obstacle of Jews in accepting Christianity as true

Only a Christian would refer to someone using their own holy books to remain true to their faith an "obstacle".

Obviously, if Christians have the only true religion, then only they would be the ones to put things properly--yes, even if Jews reject the basis of their own faith, the Jewish Scriptures.

As a Jew, you know what the Scriptures have said about the Jewish People. They are obstinate and fail often, indicating that the whole world has the same problem. I admit that Christians are faced with the same weaknesses. But at least I'm admitting it.

I don't think that Christians accepting the NT as holy writ to be an "obstacle" to anything. It is just who they are.

that Judaism wants converts to their faith

Judaism doesn't seek converts because it is not necessary. A person can be good with God without being Jewish. In fact it's easier to be good with God as a non-Jew because one just has to lead a moral life and not follow all the bible's rules. So Jews believe.

I believe the Jewish People were given by God a mission, to be a city set on a hill, to be a light to the Gentiles. To huddle together to escape the filth of the world is a cop out, and God never allowed the Jewish People to do that.

Even through failure under the Law, God has persisted with His program for the Jewish People, to spread them out across the world to impact the world for good. Ultimately, I'm praying the Jewish People find that the Christian faith and their faith can coalesce around the reality that Jesus was their and our Messiah.

By contrast, Christianity seeks converts so as to convert them not to a specific culture, but rather, to God and to a means of salvation that is not ethnocentric.

Jews don't believe that a person needs "salvation," and so the concept Jesus's sacrifice and Christianity in general becomes unnecessary.

Then the Jewish People fail to see the problem spelled out in the beginning of Genesis, that there is a sin problem and the need to get back to the Garden, to the Tree of Life. That's salvation--not just salvation for Israel, in which they will never be harassed and oppressed again, but salvation for all nations, so that there will be no more fighting, and swords can be remade into plow shares.

[Fenris]

Obviously, if Christians have the only true religion, then only they would be the ones to put things properly--yes, even if Jews reject the basis of their own faith, the Jewish Scriptures.

The NT isn't "Jewish scriptures" though. Sure much of it was written by Jews. But then so was "Das Kapital" and I don't consider that "Jewish scripture" either.

As a Jew, you know what the Scriptures have said about the Jewish People. They are obstinate and fail often,

That doesn't mean that Jews or Judaism is wrong though, as you're taking it to mean.

I believe the Jewish People were given by God a mission, to be a city set on a hill, to be a light to the Gentiles. To huddle together to escape the filth of the world is a cop out, and God never allowed the Jewish People to do that.

The Jewish mission was never to convert the whole world. You won't find a single verse that says that. Yes, we are meant to be a "kingdom of priests" and a "holy nation" (Ex 19) and a "light unto the nations" (Is 60) by teaching the world to behave morally. I'll even say that God's scattering of the Jews to the four corners of the world is to help in that mission.

Then the Jewish People fail to see the problem spelled out in the beginning of Genesis

There's no failure because there's no problem. God created us imperfect, why would he expect perfection from us? God expects us to make moral choices in life, not be angels.

[RandyPNW]

Obviously, if Christians have the only true religion, then only they would be the ones to put things properly--yes, even if Jews reject the basis of their own faith, the Jewish Scriptures.

The NT isn't "Jewish scriptures" though. Sure much of it was written by Jews. But then so was "Das Kapital" and I don't consider that "Jewish scripture" either.

You're comparing NT Scriptures with Das Kapital? Please don't!

But I know what you mean. Jews have been made, by God, to be a very influential people in history. Jews have been behind many influential streams of thought in history, including Christianity. As you say, Jews wrote the NT Scriptures. Should make you proud!

As a Jew, you know what the Scriptures have said about the Jewish People. They are obstinate and fail often,

That doesn't mean that Jews or Judaism is wrong though, as you're taking it to mean.

An argument can be made. That's the point.

I believe the Jewish People were given by God a mission, to be a city set on a hill, to be a light to the Gentiles. To huddle together to escape the filth of the world is a cop out, and God never allowed the Jewish People to do that.

The Jewish mission was never to convert the whole world. You won't find a single verse that says that. Yes, we are meant to be a "kingdom of priests" and a "holy nation" (Ex 19) and a "light unto the nations" (Is 60) by teaching the world to behave morally. I'll even say that God's scattering of the Jews to the four corners of the world is to help in that mission.

Then the Jewish People fail to see the problem spelled out in the beginning of Genesis

There's no failure because there's no problem. God created us imperfect, why would he expect perfection from us? God expects us to make moral choices in life, not be angels.

I don't believe God created mankind imperfect. That's definitely a disagreement between us. God makes everything perfect, but creates them in such a way that free moral agencies can choose imperfection. That's what both angels and men did--chose imperfection in order to have independent choice.

[Fenris]

You're comparing NT Scriptures with Das Kapital? Please don't!

Both written by Jews. I thought that was such an important criteria?

But I know what you mean. Jews have been made, by God, to be a very influential people in history. Jews have been behind many influential streams of thought in history, including Christianity. As you say, Jews wrote the NT Scriptures. Should make you proud!

I'm not unproud (Is that even a word?) But that doesn't make every Jewish invention correct or true or even good. Communism, for example. We could do without that.

Now, on the balance I believe that Christianity is a Good Thing, because gave the idea of a God Who expects moral behavior to the gentile world. But that doesn't mean that it's correct.

An argument can be made. That's the point.

The argument isn't compelling to me because the prophets rebuked Jews yet remained Jews. The early Christians (and Christians today for that matter) use the words of the prophets to rebuke Jews from outside the faith. It isn't done in love, in other words, but to win a theological debate. Which seems to me to be a bad use of God's words.

I don't believe God created mankind imperfect. That's definitely a disagreement between us.

OK.

[Pablo]

Even though the bible is the most complex book in all of the Universe, it is also God's only words to mankind, and it is important to understand that God is not the author of confusion and neither is he a respecter of persons.

"Walk" in Christianity always come before "talk".
Adam a son of God walked and talked with God in the garden.
When Adam stopped walking, he also stopped talking, hiding himself in case he was found out.

The bible is very explicit and detailed about the end times. The book of Revelation says it all,  to those who have been graced by God to understand it.

Now concerning saving nations or individuals, Corinthians 15 says it all. It takes us from a seed to the final product of God which is a spiritual being and everything else is moot as a seed says it all. It is only what can come from a seed that will determine the end product.

There is nothing temporal in God's plan, purpose and will. Even the very temporal earth, sun, moon will be totally destroyed to usher in a brand new earth, and heaven and the New Jerusalem.

Both folds (other sheep) of God will become one (both the 1st Covenant and 2nd Covenant people will merge into one people to live with Christ forever)

[journeyman]

You're comparing NT Scriptures with Das Kapital? Please don't!

Both written by Jews. I thought that was such an important criteria?

The important criteria is how the OT and NT agree with one another. That's because they say the same thing. That's how people should know Das Kapital isn't scripture. Having both been written by Jews is incidental, but it was prophecied about. That's impressive.

[Fenris]

The important criteria is how the OT and NT agree with one another.

But what if someone doesn't think that they agree with one another?   

[journeyman]

But what if someone doesn't think that they agree with one another?   

Then I guess we have fellowship on where we do agree and live at peace over the rest. 😊

[RabbiKnife]

Amen!  Another round of latkes for everyone!!!

[CONSPICILLUM]

The important criteria is how the OT and NT agree with one another.

But what if someone doesn't think that they agree with one another?   

Technically, this would be a higher critical view by liberal theologians, or a position held by a non-Messianic Jew, etc. As I understand, you are the latter. So… it isn’t surprising. If it were different, you would be a convert to the Christian faith. But isn’t that your point?

[Fenris]

Amen!  Another round of latkes for everyone!!!

You're too late. Next Chanukah perhaps.

[Fenris]

Then I guess we have fellowship on where we do agree and live at peace over the rest. 😊

I suppose that is what we must do until the messiah comes. Or returns, if you're correct. Or maybe we're both wrong and its the Mahdi.

[Fenris]

If it were different, you would be a convert to the Christian faith. But isn’t that your point?

My point is that's it's possible to be a religious, God fearing person who's literate in the bible and not believe in the NT. Not because of "blindness" and not because of "wickedness". But because of a different perception of what the bible is saying.

[CONSPICILLUM]

If it were different, you would be a convert to the Christian faith. But isn’t that your point?

My point is that's it's possible to be a religious, God fearing person who's literate in the bible and not believe in the NT. Not because of "blindness" and not because of "wickedness". But because of a different perception of what the bible is saying.

Yes, of course. Faith is the pivotal factor. But faith isn’t merely a blind hopefulness or wishfulness. The NT can be believed based upon Philological truth alone. Or disbelieved for any number of reasons.