The Messiah

[journeyman]

No. I'm disagreeing with your opinion on who God is and what He expects from us. That's not the same thing at all.

Jesus being Messiah isn't simply my opinion. The Prophets and Apostles sent by God proclaimed him. So you're disagreeing with God. As Gamaliel said,

if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. Act.5:38-39

I'll say it again. I don't think any holy book is unbiased. Period. That includes my bible, your bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tripitaka, etc etc. Each is "true" to the people who believe in it, and less true for everyone else.

Then there's no foundation for you to occupy the holy land.

So what? The point is that Jews can be just as wrong as anyone else.

Apparently only the Jewsish authors of the NT. Right?

If I'm not mistaken, Christians believe that Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind.

Yes. Possessing the power to destroy his enemies but showing them mercy instead is a great sacrifice.

Of course, to a non-believer like me, he was just one of millions of Jews killed by the Romans in the first century.

I know you think he's still in the grave.

 

That's in my bible, and I happen to agree with it. That has nothing to do with what you're saying however.

Sure it dies, because to reverence God one must have faith in him. That's the beginning of knowledge, so you're wrong.

Fine, but again, that doesn't prove Christianity correct or incorrect.

Point is, hearers can be prejudiced by false followers.

The bible says what it is. Over and over and over again. It's what God expects us to do. Period. And I'm not going to cast it aside because a person, any person, tells me to.

I don't propose casting the law aside. God writes the law in people's hearts because of their faith in the Messiah.

And I'm free to ignore it.

Ignore your claim about what Jews believe all you like.

Yeah, So first of all, Psalms is poetry. I'm not deriving my theology from a poem.

That's unfortunate, because Psalms shows the heart of the believer.

Second of all, I have already made the point that nobody is perfect, and I'd rather do my best to follow the Lord's commands, and rely on His mercy when I fall short, then throw out all of God's commands. You can feel free to do otherwise, especially as the bible's commands are by and large not binding on you anyway.

This is becoming redundant.

Unless I missed something, "Christians United For Israel" isn't mentioned in Jesu's teachings.

He covered every area of conduct.

 

I think you're going to be in for a surprise. “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

I think you'll be in for a suprise when you find out people from all languages and nations have already taken firm hold on the hem of one Jew.

The land isn't promised to all. It's promised to Abraham and his descendants Isaac and Jacob and their descendants until today. It's in all Genesis, I promise!

And as I showed, some of Abes kids weren't allowed in. Your unanswered problem.

Yes. A generation born into slavery was not capable of imagining that they could conquer the land. Only a generation born in freedom could do that. This is a very understandable limitation of human behavior. It's being rather judgmental for anyone today,  born into the freest societies the world has ever seen, to hold them to account on that point.

Hey Mr happy, guess what? I'm not passing judgement on them. God did. Hello?

I have, and remain unconvinced. So where does that leave us? Agree to disagree?

Yes.

[Fenris]

Jesus being Messiah isn't simply my opinion.

Yes, it is an opinion.

The Prophets and Apostles sent by God proclaimed him.

Every person who claims to be a prophet isn't necessarily one. Other religions have holy men too, does that make them prophets sent by God? I didn't think so.

So you're disagreeing with God.

No, my friend. I'm disagreeing with you.

As Gamaliel said,

if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. Act.5:38-39

Just because something is "of God" doesn't make it good or even true. God sent the Assyrians and Babylonians. And the Nazis, for that matter. That doesn't mean I crack open a copy of "Mein Kampf" and look for truth.

Then there's no foundation for you to occupy the holy land.

There is for us. Other nations don't believe it, nor do I expect them to.

So what? The point is that Jews can be just as wrong as anyone else.

Apparently only the Jewsish authors of the NT. Right?

No, lots of Jewish thinkers in history have been tragically wrong on various matters. Marx, as already mentioned. Shabtai Zvi. Spinoza. Asimov. Mordecai Kaplan. And on and on.

If I'm not mistaken, Christians believe that Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind.

Yes. Possessing the power to destroy his enemies but showing them mercy instead is a great sacrifice.

Ummm you're going to have to take this up with your fellow Christians. Far be it from me to debate Christian theology with you, but the whole point was for Jesus to die for man's sins. Not that he could have resisted but chose not to.

Of course, to a non-believer like me, he was just one of millions of Jews killed by the Romans in the first century.

I know you think he's still in the grave.

Yeah, I do. NT text notwithstanding. Again, it's not a factual account. It's a text written by believers and for believers. Just like my bible or indeed any other holy writ.

That's in my bible, and I happen to agree with it. That has nothing to do with what you're saying however.

Sure it dies, because to reverence God one must have faith in him. That's the beginning of knowledge, so you're wrong.

Just because I believe in God doesn't mean that I have to believe in things that you say about God. Cmon man.

Point is, hearers can be prejudiced by false followers.

Just because someone doesn't believe as you do doesn't mean they're a "false follower".

I don't propose casting the law aside. God writes the law in people's hearts because of their faith in the Messiah.

First of all, Christians have cast the law aside. Again, why am I lecturing you on Christian theology? Take this up with a Christian. Secondly, no place in my bible is one commanded to "believe in" the messiah or really anything else. 

Ignore your claim about what Jews believe all you like.

Well, why not? You ignore what other Christians believe.

That's unfortunate, because Psalms shows the heart of the believer.

But only when it says what you like. Otherwise you freely ignore it.

Second of all, I have already made the point that nobody is perfect, and I'd rather do my best to follow the Lord's commands, and rely on His mercy when I fall short, then throw out all of God's commands. You can feel free to do otherwise, especially as the bible's commands are by and large not binding on you anyway.

This is becoming redundant.

Yes, because God repeated this instruction many many times. And you ignore it every time.

Unless I missed something, "Christians United For Israel" isn't mentioned in Jesu's teachings.

He covered every area of conduct.

And Jesus said "Christians United For Israel" isn't a pro-Israel group? Book chapter and verse, please.

I think you're going to be in for a surprise. “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

I think you'll be in for a suprise when you find out people from all languages and nations have already taken firm hold on the hem of one Jew.

And this is the problem when you read a translation and not the text in it's original language. You see, in Hebrew, unlike English, there are different forms of the work "you". There's a form for the "you", singular, and a different word for the "you", plural. Which term does Zec 8:23 use? That's right, the plural. “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (plural)” In other words, "we have heard that God is with your people (and not you, personally)."

The land isn't promised to all. It's promised to Abraham and his descendants Isaac and Jacob and their descendants until today. It's in all Genesis, I promise!

And as I showed, some of Abes kids weren't allowed in. Your unanswered problem.

Because the promise was reiterated to Isaac and Jacob. Do you even read the bible? C'mon man.

Yes. A generation born into slavery was not capable of imagining that they could conquer the land. Only a generation born in freedom could do that. This is a very understandable limitation of human behavior. It's being rather judgmental for anyone today,  born into the freest societies the world has ever seen, to hold them to account on that point.

Hey Mr happy, guess what? I'm not passing judgement on them. God did. Hello?

And you're judging them again. Matthew 7:1 my friend.

[journeyman]

Yes, it is an opinion.

No my friend. It works like this,

Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets daily rising up early and sending them, yet they hearkened not unto me...Jer.7:25-26

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. Mt.10:40

Every person who claims to be a prophet isn't necessarily one. Other religions have holy men too, does that make them prophets sent by God? I didn't think so.

I agree.

No, my friend. I'm disagreeing with you.

It isn't of me. It's of the Lord.

Just because something is "of God" doesn't make it good or even true. God sent the Assyrians and Babylonians. And the Nazis, for that matter. That doesn't mean I crack open a copy of "Mein Kampf" and look for truth.

Everything of God is good, whether we understand his reasons or not. God doesn't make people do evil, but he does use their evil for his own purpose.

There is for us. Other nations don't believe it, nor do I expect them to.

Well, if you believe the scriptures are biased, there's no foundation for your reasoning.

Ummm you're going to have to take this up with your fellow Christians. Far be it from me to debate Christian theology with you, but the whole point was for Jesus to die for man's sins. Not that he could have resisted but chose not to.

The only alternative to patiently enduring sin is judgement. God shows this throughout scripture and the Messiah is exactly like his Father.

Yeah, I do. NT text notwithstanding. Again, it's not a factual account. It's a text written by believers and for believers. Just like my bible or indeed any other holy writ.

That's fine, but if the scriptures aren't factual, your teaching amounts to nothing

Just because I believe in God doesn't mean that I have to believe in things that you say about God. Cmon man.

If you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, then you don't believe in the God of the Bible.

Just because someone doesn't believe as you do doesn't mean they're a "false follower".

I was thinking here of so called Christians who used force to make Jewish people convert.

First of all, Christians have cast the law aside. Again, why am I lecturing you on Christian theology? Take this up with a Christian. Secondly, no place in my bible is one commanded to "believe in" the messiah or really anything else.

First of all, if cast the law aside, you're not a follower of the Messiah who taught the opposite. Secondly, unbelief kept Jews from the promised land, so you're wrong.

Well, why not? You ignore what other Christians believe.

Time will tell.

But only when it says what you like. Otherwise you freely ignore it.

I don't ignore the Psalms or other books of scripture.

Yes, because God repeated this instruction many many times. And you ignore it every time.

I don't ignore it. I understand the standard of it and have no desire to be judged by it. I told you this already.

And Jesus said "Christians United For Israel" isn't a pro-Israel group? Book chapter and verse, please.

He didn't use titles. He simply wasn't a Zionist.

I think you'll be in for a suprise when you find out people from all languages and nations have already taken firm hold on the hem of one Jew. And this is the problem when you read a translation and not the text in it's original language. You see, in Hebrew, unlike English, there are different forms of the work "you". There's a form for the "you", singular, and a different word for the "you", plural. Which term does Zec 8:23 use? That's right, the plural. “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (plural)” In other words, "we have heard that God is with your people (and not you, personally)."

Plurality isn't the issue. The Spirit is the issue.

Because the promise was reiterated to Isaac and Jacob. Do you even read the bible? C'mon man.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were believers. As I've already proven, race is incidental.

And you're judging them again. Matthew 7:1 my friend.

No I'm not. I simply pointed out what God plainly said. I'm not picking on the Jews Fenris. I'm not "anti-Semetic". People are the same in God's eyes.

[Fenris]

No my friend. It works like this,

Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets daily rising up early and sending them, yet they hearkened not unto me...Jer.7:25-26

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. Mt.10:40

Every person who claims to be a prophets isn't necessarily a prophet.  There is such a thing as a false prophet. The bible warns us of this twice. You guys here even talk about false prophets. So we just disagree on who is a true prophet and who isn't.

I agree.

Great!

It isn't of me. It's of the Lord.

You don't speak with God's authority, and in my opinion neither does anyone in the NT. 

Everything of God is good, whether we understand his reasons or not. God doesn't make people do evil, but he does use their evil for his own purpose.

That's true, but it doesn't mean that God gives the Divine Seal Of Approval (TM) to everything that man does. Christianity or Marxism could further God's plans for mankind, but that doesn't make them true.

Well, if you believe the scriptures are biased, there's no foundation for your reasoning.

I don't even know what you're saying here. Yes, I do believe that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. That doesn't mean that I expect other people to believe it, or even care if they do or not. It  is sufficient for me that *I* believe it.

The only alternative to patiently enduring sin is judgement.

No, it's not. The bible gives plenty of ways to atone for sin.

That's fine, but if the scriptures aren't factual, your teaching amounts to nothing

As I said, above, I don't care if anyone believes as I do or not. 

If you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, then you don't believe in the God of the Bible.

Would you say that "If you don't believe that Muhammad is God's prophet, you you don't believe in the God of the Bible"? Of course not. It doesn't follow that rejecting your belief means I reject the bible.

I was thinking here of so called Christians who used force to make Jewish people convert.

They claimed to be Christians. 

First of all, if cast the law aside, you're not a follower of the Messiah who taught the opposite.

Take this up with Christians, not me.

Secondly, unbelief kept Jews from the promised land, so you're wrong.

Again, no place does the bible command us to "believe in" the messiah or anything else for that matter.

I don't ignore the Psalms or other books of scripture.

You ignore plenty.

I don't ignore it. I understand the standard of it and have no desire to be judged by it. I told you this already.

What you "desire" is not important. God told us to follow these rules, whether we "desire to" or not.

He didn't use titles. He simply wasn't a Zionist.

Take it up with your fellow Christians. Specifically CUFI.

Plurality isn't the issue. The Spirit is the issue.

So now you get to ignore the literal text of the bible because "sprit". Nice. I'm going to post the verse again, because you seem to like changing the subject.

Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (plural)” In other words, "we have heard that God is with your people (and not you, personally)."

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were believers.

Believers in what? They couldn't believe as modern Christians, or first century Christians, or even first century Jews. The bible hadn't even been written yet.

As I've already proven, race is incidental.

God promised the land to Abraham's descendants, reiterated through Isaac and Jacob.  By what right do you ignore God's word? Because you personally don't like it? How do you think God is going to take that?

No I'm not. I simply pointed out what God plainly said.

Oh how clever. But when God plainly promises the land of Israel to a specific people, you get to ignore it. Because reasons.

I'm not picking on the Jews Fenris.

No, you're picking on one generation. As if you could have done better.


 

I'm not "anti-Semetic".

I never said that you were. Why did you bring that up?

[journeyman]

Every person who claims to be a prophets isn't necessarily a prophet.

I agree. That's why we're instructed to test them,

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1Jn.4:1

You don't speak with God's authority, and in my opinion neither does anyone in the NT.

It's obvious your understanding of the NT got corkscrewed.

That's true, but it doesn't mean that God gives the Divine Seal Of Approval (TM) to everything that man does. Christianity or Marxism could further God's plans for mankind, but that doesn't make them true.

Well, I won't be grasping the sleeve of Marx.

The bible gives plenty of ways to atone for sin.

And they're centered in the Messiahs reasoning. Otherwise they're meaningless.

As I said, above, I don't care if anyone believes as I do or not.

I'm glad the Prophets and Apostles didn't feel that way.
 

Would you say that "If you don't believe that Muhammad is God's prophet, you you don't believe in the God of the Bible"? Of course not. It doesn't follow that rejecting your belief means I reject the bible.

He replaced Isaac with Ishmael, so that's a no brainer.

They claimed to be Christians.

The Messiah taught contrary.

Take this up with Christians, not me.

I do.

Again, no place does the bible command us to "believe in" the messiah or anything else for that matter.

I understand. As long as you're born Jewish, you don't have to believe anything God says. Pathetic.

You ignore plenty.

I believe the Messiah taught the scriptures in truth.

What you "desire" is not important. God told us to follow these rules, whether we "desire to" or not.

I never said he didn't. I said I have no desire to be judged according to the law. Apparently you do, but laws are made for the lawless, so good luck with that.

Take it up with your fellow Christians. Specifically CUFI.

I do. They turn a blind eye to it.

So now you get to ignore the literal text of the bible because "sprit". Nice. I'm going to post the verse again, because you seem to like changing the subject.

Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (plural)” In other words, "we have heard that God is with your people (and not you, personally)."

And the NT shows how this prophecy is being fulfilled, but it wasn't simply because the Apostles are Jewish. It's because the Holy Spirit was in them. Your assertion that gentiles may cling to any Jew, simply because he was born Jewish, whether that Jew believes in God or not, is ridiculous.

Believers in what? They couldn't believe as modern Christians, or first century Christians, or even first century Jews. The bible hadn't even been written yet.

I already told you. Abrahams faith rested in the belief that God would raise his promised son from the dead....and he did. Hi, how are ya?

God promised the land to Abraham's descendants, reiterated through Isaac and Jacob.  By what right do you ignore God's word? Because you personally don't like it? How do you think God is going to take that?

Oh how clever. But when God plainly promises the land of Israel to a specific people, you get to ignore it. Because reasons.

I just showed you, but it's like talking to a wall. You claim the promised land belongs to Jews solely because they're Jewish, but the Jews who left Egypt were barred from the promised land because they didn't believe what God said. That's your conundrum.

No, you're picking on one generation. As if you could have done better.

No it isn't as if I could have done better. It's as if I don't believe what God said, I'll be batred from his Kingdom.

I never said that you were. Why did you bring that up?

Because that's an accusation I sometimes get when telling misinformed people that the holy land doesn't belong to any particular race.

[Fenris]

I agree. That's why we're instructed to test them,

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1Jn.4:1

I was thinking more along the lines of Deuteronomy 13:2.

It's obvious your understanding of the NT got corkscrewed.

It's obvious that you consider the NT to be holy writ, while I do not.

Well, I won't be grasping the sleeve of Marx.

My sleeve is still available however. 

The bible gives plenty of ways to atone for sin.

And they're centered in the Messiahs reasoning. Otherwise they're meaningless.

Ignoring the text of the bible seems kind of, oh, I don't know, blasphemous?

Hosea 6: For I desire mercy, not sacrifice

Proverbs 16: By mercy and truth iniquity is purged

Ezekiel 18 :It may be that a wicked man gives up his sinful ways and keeps all my laws, doing what is just and right. That man shall live; he shall not die. None of the offenses he has committed shall be remembered against him; he shall live because of his righteous deeds. Have I any desire, says the Lord God, for the death of a wicked man? Would I not rather that he should mend his ways and live?

Psalm 51: For thou delightest not in a sacrifice that I would bring; thou hast no pleasure in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 14: Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to him:   “Forgive all our sins
and receive us graciously,  that we may offer the fruit of our lips".

Chronicles 2, chapter 6 . You shall hear from heaven, from Your dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and You shall forgive Your people who sinned against You.

1 Kings 8: And you shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause. And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and give mercy before their captors, that they may have mercy on them.

Micah 6: With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.

I mean, it sounds to me like God will accept prayer and good deeds for atonement.

I'm glad the Prophets and Apostles didn't feel that way.

I don't consider myself either of those things. If Jews have a mission, it is to be a "light unto the nations" by leading moral, Godly lives as an example for the rest of mankind. Whether they choose to follow or not is not in my control.
 

Would you say that "If you don't believe that Muhammad is God's prophet, you you don't believe in the God of the Bible"? Of course not. It doesn't follow that rejecting your belief means I reject the bible.

He replaced Isaac with Ishmael, so that's a no brainer.

And you've thrown out the covenant at Sinai, so that's a no brainer.

They claimed to be Christians.

The Messiah taught contrary.

Ah, the "no true Christian" argument.

Take this up with Christians, not me.

I do.

Ducky!

Again, no place does the bible command us to "believe in" the messiah or anything else for that matter.

I understand. As long as you're born Jewish, you don't have to believe anything God says. Pathetic.

Judaism is a religion of action, not faith. The bible contains some 613 positive and negative commands, and that's what God requires us to do. 

You ignore plenty.

I believe the Messiah taught the scriptures in truth.

"Believe" being the key word here.

I never said he didn't. I said I have no desire to be judged according to the law. Apparently you do, but laws are made for the lawless, so good luck with that.

It doesn't matter what I desire. God said to follow these laws, so I'm going to follow them. When I fall short, I'll rely on His mercy. I'm certainly not going to say "This is too hard, I'm not doing any of it".

I do. They turn a blind eye to it.

How lonely you must be.

And the NT shows how this prophecy is being fulfilled, but it wasn't simply because the Apostles are Jewish. It's because the Holy Spirit was in them. Your assertion that gentiles may cling to any Jew, simply because he was born Jewish, whether that Jew believes in God or not, is ridiculous.

I'll leave a spot on my sleeve open for you, because I'm nice like that. 

I already told you. Abrahams faith rested in the belief that God would raise his promised son from the dead....and he did. Hi, how are ya?

This isn't in the bible and Isaac didn't die.

I just showed you, but it's like talking to a wall. You claim the promised land belongs to Jews solely because they're Jewish, but the Jews who left Egypt were barred from the promised land because they didn't believe what God said. That's your conundrum.

There's no conundrum. The generation of the Exodus wasn't up to conquering the land, so it was left to children, who were also Jews, born in freedom, to do so.

No it isn't as if I could have done better. It's as if I don't believe what God said, I'll be batred from his Kingdom.

No worries, you'll have my sleevie.

Because that's an accusation I sometimes get when telling misinformed people that the holy land doesn't belong to any particular race.

Sooooo you think that God is a liar. Definitely blasphemous. 

[journeyman]

I was thinking more along the lines of Deuteronomy 13:2.

The Messiah and NT writers didn't tell tell anyone to go after false gods.

My sleeve is still available however. 

It seems like you're saying it doesn't matter who the Jew is. Is that your position? As long as a gentile clings to any Jew?

Ignoring the text of the bible seems kind of, oh, I don't know, blasphemous?

Hosea 6: For I desire mercy, not sacrifice

Proverbs 16: By mercy and truth iniquity is purged

Ezekiel 18 :It may be that a wicked man gives up his sinful ways and keeps all my laws, doing what is just and right. That man shall live; he shall not die. None of the offenses he has committed shall be remembered against him; he shall live because of his righteous deeds. Have I any desire, says the Lord God, for the death of a wicked man? Would I not rather that he should mend his ways and live?

Psalm 51: For thou delightest not in a sacrifice that I would bring; thou hast no pleasure in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.

Hosea 14: Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to him:   “Forgive all our sins
and receive us graciously,  that we may offer the fruit of our lips".

Chronicles 2, chapter 6 . You shall hear from heaven, from Your dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and You shall forgive Your people who sinned against You.

1 Kings 8: And you shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause. And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and give mercy before their captors, that they may have mercy on them.

Micah 6: With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.

I mean, it sounds to me like God will accept prayer and good deeds for atonement.

I don't disagree, because the Messiah taught the same things,

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice... Mt.9:13

this man went down to his house justified...Lk.18:14

....If Jews have a mission, it is to be a "light unto the nations" by leading moral, Godly lives as an example for the rest of mankind....

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mt.5:16

See, that's the problem.

And you've thrown out the covenant at Sinai, so that's a no brainer.

I'm not throwing it out. I told you, the law was made for lawbreakers and is still in effect.

Ah, the "no true Christian" argument.

The Messiah taught it,

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lk.6:46

Judaism is a religion of action, not faith. The bible contains some 613 positive and negative commands, and that's what God requires us to do.

So you have faith God said do certain things....but your religion has nothing to do with faith? How perfectly convoluted.

It doesn't matter what I desire. God said to follow these laws, so I'm going to follow them. When I fall short, I'll rely on His mercy. I'm certainly not going to say "This is too hard, I'm not doing any of it".

As long as the law has it's intended effect, it's fine.

How lonely you must be.

I'm saddened by it, but never lonely.

I'll leave a spot on my sleeve open for you, because I'm nice like that. 

Jesus beat ya to it. In fact, he teaches the world about God, so the messiah you're waiting for isn't necessary.

This isn't in the bible and Isaac didn't die.

He didn't have to. By his decision, it's obvious what Abraham was thinking.

There's no conundrum. The generation of the Exodus wasn't up to conquering the land, so it was left to children, who were also Jews, born in freedom, to do so.

Then the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, "To your descendants I will give this land."  Gen.12:7

Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.  Psa.95:11

That's your paradox.

No worries, you'll have my sleevie.

But you don't know him,

Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Jn.6:45

Sooooo you think that God is a liar. Definitely blasphemous.

I'm still waiting for you to explain your paradox.

[Fenris]

The Messiah and NT writers didn't tell tell anyone to go after false gods.

Not false gods. Read it carefully.

It seems like you're saying it doesn't matter who the Jew is. Is that your position? As long as a gentile clings to any Jew?

Read what it says. People from all the nations will grab the garment of a Jew because "we have heard that God is with you." I know it might upset you, but it is what God said.

I don't disagree, because the Messiah taught the same things,

Great! So I can atone without sacrifice. Jesus not necessary.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mt.5:16

See, that's the problem.

What's a problem?

I'm not throwing it out. I told you, the law was made for lawbreakers and is still in effect.

This is a circular argument. The law isn't made for "lawbreakers". The law was given to us by God so that we know what His expectations are. You seem to think that the bible's morality is obvious and everyone could figure it out for themselves.  But the only reason that you think that way is because you grew up in a society that had already accepted the bible's morality.

The Messiah taught it,

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lk.6:46

I don't even know what this means.

So you have faith God said do certain things....but your religion has nothing to do with faith? How perfectly convoluted.

Have you, uh, actually, ever read the bible? It's chock full of things that God expects us to do. And he's not shy, He tells us that He expects us to do these things. Not once are we commanded to have "faith".

I'm saddened by it, but never lonely.

That's a shame, I try to serve God with joy.

Jesus beat ya to it. In fact, he teaches the world about God, so the messiah you're waiting for isn't necessary.

The messiah's mission isn't to teach the world about God.

He didn't have to. By his decision, it's obvious what Abraham was thinking.

What's "obvious" is that he trusted God. That's the extent of what the text tells us. Nothing about the dead coming back to life. The bible isn't some open text that lets you fill in your own spin on every story.

There's no conundrum. The generation of the Exodus wasn't up to conquering the land, so it was left to children, who were also Jews, born in freedom, to do so.

Then the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, "To your descendants I will give this land."  Gen.12:7

And his descendants got the land. God is faithful!

Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.  Psa.95:11

That's your paradox.

There's no paradox. That one generation wasn't allowed to enter the land. Their children were. And they remained there for more than 600 years, which is more than twice as long as America has been a country. That's along time. And the second temple era lasted just as long.  Stop ignoring what actually happened.

But you don't know him,

Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Jn.6:45

Not in my bible, sorry.

I'm still waiting for you to explain your paradox.

As I explained, there's no paradox.

[Fenris]

Let's get back to Abraham. I'm going to state again that it isn't possible that he believed anything like first century (let alone present time) Christians or Jews.

First century (and modern) Jews believe that the messiah will be a king from the line of David who will end the Jewish diaspora, amongst other things (see the second of of Ez 37 for example). Abraham couldn't believe that. Why? Because there was no Jewish diaspora and no Jewish homeland. There were no Jews. (Abraham was the first). There was no king from the line of David because there was no David. There wouldn't be a rebuilt temple because there was no temple.

It's not entirely clear to me what first century Christians believed (even the apostles and Paul are sorting out what is and isn't dogma) and Christian theology developed over time (for example, at Nicea) and even the role of the Church (which Luther overthrew). But so much of the NT is "new" in the sense that it isn't how Jews saw things. It seems presumptuous to say that Abraham was some sort of proto-Christian. In fact, it isn't even clear to me that in Abraham's time, or even anytime up to the Exodus, that animal sacrifice was brought as an atonement vehicle. It was simply a way of giving back to God. So Abraham couldn't believe that some "perfect sacrifice" was going to atone for sin when sacrifice wasn't used to atone for sin. 

Abraham couldn't believe as any of us do today because the bible hadn't been written yet.

[journeyman]

Not false gods. Read it carefully.

There's only true God, so other gods are false gods.

Read what it says. People from all the nations will grab the garment of a Jew because "we have heard that God is with you." I know it might upset you, but it is what God said.

I'm not upset. The fulfillment of this prophecy is in Acts and has been going on ever since. We're having this conversation because I heard God was with the Messiah and the Apostles who were given his Spirit.

Great! So I can atone without sacrifice. Jesus not necessary.

Atonement occurs as long as we believe what he taught

What's a problem?

Thinking you're a light to others without his Spirit.

This is a circular argument. The law isn't made for "lawbreakers". The law was given to us by God so that we know what His expectations are. You seem to think that the bible's morality is obvious and everyone could figure it out for themselves.  But the only reason that you think that way is because you grew up in a society that had already accepted the bible's morality.

The law defines good and evil more precisely, but the people of Noahs day perished without it.

I don't even know what this means.

It means if you don't do what the Lord says, don't call him your Lord.

Have you, uh, actually, ever read the bible? It's chock full of things that God expects us to do. And he's not shy, He tells us that He expects us to do these things. Not once are we commanded to have "faith".

The righteous live by faith in what God says, as Abraham believed God. Pleasing God by faithlessness is mindless.

That's a shame, I try to serve God with joy.

Serving God wasn't the subject.

The messiah's mission isn't to teach the world about God.

I already proved it's one of them. I won't go over it again.

What's "obvious" is that he trusted God. That's the extent of what the text tells us. Nothing about the dead coming back to life. The bible isn't some open text that lets you fill in your own spin on every story.

Actually, Abraham believed his descendants would come from Isaac, but was going to slay his son without knowing that God would stop him. It's not that hard.

There's no conundrum.....There's no paradox.

Not if you keep your head in the sand.

Not in my bible, sorry.

The Word of God is all over the Bible.

As I explained, there's no paradox.

Your explanation was, all Jews are given the land, but all Jews weren't.

[journeyman]

Let's get back to Abraham. I'm going to state again that it isn't possible that he believed anything like first century (let alone present time) Christians or Jews.

By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called, accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Heb.11:17-19

That's very simple.to understand.

[RabbiKnife]

Abraham believed just like we do... according to the light given him.

[Fenris]

accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead

That's very simple.to understand.

It's certainly interesting. It's not anyplace in the Jewish bible, though.

[Fenris]

There's only true God, so other gods are false gods.

The verse specifically says "other gods which you have not known".

I'm not upset. The fulfillment of this prophecy is in Acts and has been going on ever since.

Really? Chapter verse please.

Atonement occurs as long as we believe what he taught

That...has nothing to do with the verses that I posted.

Thinking you're a light to others without his Spirit.

I don't even know what this means.

It means if you don't do what the Lord says, don't call him your Lord.

But I do, though. I do what God commanded us to do.

The righteous live by faith in what God says, as Abraham believed God. Pleasing God by faithlessness is mindless.

But God didn't ask for faith. He gave us specific rules to follow. I know you just throw all that out, but it's really there.

The messiah's mission isn't to teach the world about God.

I already proved it's one of them. I won't go over it again.

You proved nothing. And so now you move on.

Actually, Abraham believed his descendants would come from Isaac, but was going to slay his son without knowing that God would stop him.

But God did stop him.

Not if you keep your head in the sand.

The Word of God is all over the Bible.

I see you're done answering questions and now are just mouthing platitudes. Have another sunglasses guy. 

Your explanation was, all Jews are given the land, but all Jews weren't.

Of course it belonged to them. That doesn't mean that they were allowed to live there. Those are two different things. Jews were in exile for almost 2,000 years. But now they're back in the land. Why? Because it was theirs all along, even if they didn't merit living there.

[Fenris]

Abraham believed just like we do... according to the light given him.

Ah. So this is a subtle answer. People believe according to the information that they have at the time. And people in different eras in the bible had different information available to them.