The Messiah

[journeyman]

]The verse specifically says "other gods which you have not known".

And the  Messiah and Apostles weren't telling anyone to go after "other gods which you have not known".

Really? Chapter verse please.

It actually began before he departed,

And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. Jn.12:20-21

That...has nothing to do with the verses that I posted.

Sure it does, because the Messiah taught repentance for the forgivness of sins.

But I do, though. I do what God commanded us to do.

Ok.

But God didn't ask for faith. He gave us specific rules to follow. I know you just throw all that out, but it's really there.

Following is nothimg without faith in what you're following and the circumcision of your foreskin is nothing without the circumcision of your heart.

You proved nothing. And so now you move on.

When I show you prophecy of the Messiah teaching gentiles and you ignore it it's time to move on.

But God did stop him.

Point is he was going to do it, but not because the heathen practiced human sacrifice.

Of course it belonged to them. That doesn't mean that they were allowed to live there. Those are two different things. Jews were in exile for almost 2,000 years. But now they're back in the land. Why? Because it was theirs all along, even if they didn't merit living there.

Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land? Eze.33:25

It's a retorical question. The answer is no.

[Fenris]

And the  Messiah and Apostles weren't telling anyone to go after "other gods which you have not known".

I beg to differ.

It actually began before he departed,

And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. Jn.12:20-21

This is not what Zechariah 8:23 says. Sorry.

Sure it does, because the Messiah taught repentance for the forgivness of sins.

And the verses I posted show that we don't need the messiah or anyone else for that. Prayer or good deeds is sufficient.

Following is nothimg without faith in what you're following and the circumcision of your foreskin is nothing without the circumcision of your heart.

That's not what the bible says. My bible commands us to DO things, not have faith.

When I show you prophecy of the Messiah teaching gentiles and you ignore it it's time to move on.

The messiah's mission isn't to teach gentiles. You can't add a condition that isn't in the bible and check it off as "fulfilled".

Point is he was going to do it, but not because the heathen practiced human sacrifice.

He was going to do it because he was obedient. Genesis 22 specifically says "And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you listened to My voice." Not because he "had faith". Because he obeyed.

Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land? Eze.33:25

It's a retorical question. The answer is no.

And again, the land belongs to the Jews. When they're undeserving they may not be permitted to live there. When their behavior improves they will be permitted to return. See Deuteronomy 30 and numerous other places.

[journeyman]

I beg to differ.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Mt.4:10

Why do you differ with this?

This is not what Zechariah 8:23 says. Sorry.

Sure it is. There no time constraints on the joyous fast days Zechariah speaks of. Those days are days when people come to know the Lord.

And the verses I posted show that we don't need the messiah or anyone else for that. Prayer or good deeds is sufficient.

Actually, the verses you posted agree with what Jesus taught,

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mt.5:16

So you're a little off.

That's not what the bible says. My bible commands us to DO things, not have faith.

That way you don't have to glorify God at all. I know atheists who think the same way you do. Are you an atheist? No. Why? Because of your faith,

without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb.11:16

The messiah's mission isn't to teach gentiles. You can't add a condition that isn't in the bible and check it off as "fulfilled".

So when Mic.4:2 parrots Isa.2:3, you disagree with what God says the Messiah will do?

He was going to do it because he was obedient. Genesis 22 specifically says "And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you listened to My voice." Not because he "had faith". Because he obeyed.

Uh Fenris, "because you listened to my voice" means Abrahams intention was to slay Issac. If he slayed Issac, from whom God said his seed would come, how would Abraham have any other seed? Hello?
 

And again, the land belongs to the Jews. When they're undeserving they may not be permitted to live there. When their behavior improves they will be permitted to return. See Deuteronomy 30 and numerous other places.

So ignore scripture that is contrary to what you believe. Don't attempt to explain what I just showed you. Simply igone iit and post scripture that seems contrary.

[Fenris]

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Mt.4:10

Why do you differ with this?

Deut 13:2 "Let us go after other gods which you have not known..."

Sure it is. There no time constraints on the joyous fast days Zechariah speaks of. Those days are days when people come to know the Lord.

What does that have to do with people of the nations acknowledging that God is with the Jews?

And the verses I posted show that we don't need the messiah or anyone else for that. Prayer or good deeds is sufficient.

Actually, the verses you posted agree with what Jesus taught,

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mt.5:16

You're changing the subject. I don't need sacrifice for atonement, and the verses I posted acknowledge that.

That way you don't have to glorify God at all. I know atheists who think the same way you do. Are you an atheist? No. Why? Because of your faith,

without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb.11:16

My bible doesn't command faith, but action. I understand that your bible does, but your bible does not apply to me.

The messiah's mission isn't to teach gentiles. You can't add a condition that isn't in the bible and check it off as "fulfilled".

So when Mic.4:2 parrots Isa.2:3, you disagree with what God says the Messiah will do?

That doesn't say anything about the messiah. Yes, in the messianic era, nations will grab the garment of a Jew. And they will come to Jerusalem and learn about God.

Uh Fenris, "because you listened to my voice" means Abrahams intention was to slay Issac. If he slayed Issac, from whom God said his seed would come, how would Abraham have any other seed? Hello?

You're taking an insulting tone with me and you can't even spell "Isaac". 

Because Abraham listened to God's voice means that he obeyed God. That's what those words actually mean.
 

So ignore scripture that is contrary to what you believe. Don't attempt to explain what I just showed you. Simply igone iit and post scripture that seems contrary.

The scripture doesn't say anything contrary. I'll say it again because you didn't listen last time. The land of Israel belongs to the Jews. It's all over the bible. Now, the bible also says that if the Jews don't deserve it, they won't be permitted to live there. That doesn't invalidate the first point.

[journeyman]

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Mt.4:10

Why do you differ with this?

Deut 13:2 "Let us go after other gods which you have not known..."

Sure it is. There no time constraints on the joyous fast days Zechariah speaks of. Those days are days when people come to know the Lord.

What does that have to do with people of the nations acknowledging that God is with the Jews?

And the verses I posted show that we don't need the messiah or anyone else for that. Prayer or good deeds is sufficient.

Actually, the verses you posted agree with what Jesus taught,

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mt.5:16

You're changing the subject. I don't need sacrifice for atonement, and the verses I posted acknowledge that.

That way you don't have to glorify God at all. I know atheists who think the same way you do. Are you an atheist? No. Why? Because of your faith,

without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb.11:16

My bible doesn't command faith, but action. I understand that your bible does, but your bible does not apply to me.

The messiah's mission isn't to teach gentiles. You can't add a condition that isn't in the bible and check it off as "fulfilled".

So when Mic.4:2 parrots Isa.2:3, you disagree with what God says the Messiah will do?

That doesn't say anything about the messiah. Yes, in the messianic era, nations will grab the garment of a Jew. And they will come to Jerusalem and learn about God.

Uh Fenris, "because you listened to my voice" means Abrahams intention was to slay Issac. If he slayed Issac, from whom God said his seed would come, how would Abraham have any other seed? Hello?

You're taking an insulting tone with me and you can't even spell "Isaac". 

Because Abraham listened to God's voice means that he obeyed God. That's what those words actually mean.
 

So ignore scripture that is contrary to what you believe. Don't attempt to explain what I just showed you. Simply igone iit and post scripture that seems contrary.

The scripture doesn't say anything contrary. I'll say it again because you didn't listen last time. The land of Israel belongs to the Jews. It's all over the bible. Now, the bible also says that if the Jews don't deserve it, they won't be permitted to live there. That doesn't invalidate the first point.

It has become clear that you think the promises of God belong to atheists, as long as they're Jewish.

[Fenris]

It has become clear that you think the promises of God belong to atheists, as long as they're Jewish.

Rather than answer my points, you just throw out a one sentence insult and leave it at that.

Judaism is a religion of action, not faith. No place in the bible are we commanded to "believe in" God (or the messiah for that matter).  But it's subtle. We are commanded to love God, and how can one love what they don't believe in? Even more, the bible contains an exhaustive list of "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots". Who would make the effort to learn such a difficult list of rules and then try to keep them for a being that doesn't exist?

So I would say that belief in God is expected, even while not commanded. It's the baseline. But it's not sufficient. If one believes in God and loves God, would they not try to do as God asks? And that means following His commandments, as He asks us to do, over and over throughout the bible.

Although if one doesn't believe, or lets say they're not sure if believe or not, but they uphold the law anyway, that doesn't make them bad. From a Jewish perspective. And I prefer that to the inverse: people who behave badly but think that's ok because they believe the right things.

[journeyman]

Rather than answer my points, you just throw out a one sentence insult and leave it at that.

I stated what you apparently think.

We are commanded to love God, and how can one love what they don't believe in?

That's the logical conclusion, but when I pointed that out, all I get is, "That's not in my bible". Just nonsense.

Although if one doesn't believe, or lets say they're not sure if believe or not, but they uphold the law anyway, that doesn't make them bad. From a Jewish perspective. And I prefer that to the inverse: people who behave badly but think that's ok because they believe the right things.

People who behave badly don't believe the right things and atheists don't uphold the law,

thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deut.6:5

Just silliness, like the messianic era not having to do with the Messiah. It's just ridiculous.

[Fenris]

That's the logical conclusion, but when I pointed that out, all I get is, "That's not in my bible". Just nonsense.

Because it's not. Stop putting your own ideas into the bible and read what it actually says.

People who behave badly don't believe the right things

I don't think that's true. I can provide real life examples if you wish.

and atheists don't uphold the law

People who aren't sure or don't believe in God can still behave properly. Just as people who believe in God can behave badly. Mind you, the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit atheism, it only speaks out against idolatry. So one can be unsure and still be good with God. 

Just silliness, like the messianic era not having to do with the Messiah. It's just ridiculous.

Rather than having a measured discussion, trying to broaden your horizons and open your mind, you dismiss any new idea as "silliness". That's not a great look.

[journeyman]

Because it's not. Stop putting your own ideas into the bible and read what it actually says.

They're not my ideas. You even said, "We are commanded to love God, and how can one love what they don't believe in?"

I don't think that's true. I can provide real life examples if you wish.

Not necessary.

People who aren't sure or don't believe in God can still behave properly. Just as people who believe in God can behave badly. Mind you, the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit atheism, it only speaks out against idolatry. So one can be unsure and still be good with God.

Ignore the first commandment if you wish.

Rather than having a measured discussion, trying to broaden your horizons and open your mind, you dismiss any new idea as "silliness". That's not a great look.

Ignoring God isn't a new idea, or does it open anyone's mind to anything good. It's ironic though, that you think new ideas can be a good thing, except when it comes to the new testament.

[Fenris]

They're not my ideas. You even said, "We are commanded to love God, and how can one love what they don't believe in?"

And yet we're not commanded to believe in God.

Ignore the first commandment if you wish.

It's not a commandment though. It's a statement. The other nine are commandments. In Hebrew we refer to it as the "Aseres HaDibros" the "ten statements" because they're not all commands.

Ignoring God isn't a new idea

Who said I was ignoring God? I talk to Him every day.

It's ironic though, that you think new ideas can be a good thing, except when it comes to the new testament.

It's not ironic at all. When I come across a new idea, I have to examine it to see if it's a good idea or a bad idea. Industrial revolution? Good. Socialism? Bad.

[journeyman]

We are commanded to love God.....

It's not a commandment though.....

You're contradicting yourself. And,

he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deut.4:13

[Fenris]

You're contradicting yourself.

We are commanded to love God. Belief however is not commanded. Words, they mean things.

The rabbis asked how one can love Who they can't see or perceive, and they answered their own question by saying that one should bring others to love God through their actions. By living a Godly life. Because, you see, belief is not commanded. And you can't post a verse saying otherwise because there isn't one.

And,

he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deut.4:13

Again, the Hebrew says "ten statements" not "ten commands".

[journeyman]

We are commanded to love God. Belief however is not commanded. Words, they mean things.

The rabbis asked how one can love Who they can't see or perceive....

See what you did here? The rabbis weren't asking how how they could love Who they didn't believe in.

and they answered their own question by saying that one should bring others to love God through their actions. By living a Godly life.

In other words, bring others to faith in God by doing what you believe God has said.

Because, you see, belief is not commanded. And you can't post a verse saying otherwise because there isn't one.

I already showed how God was displeased when people didn't believe in him, so unbelief is contrary to his will.

Again, the Hebrew says "ten statements" not "ten commands".

Well Fenris, a statement one is expected to obey is a command. Telling people they don't need to believe in God is a very bad thing to do.

[Fenris]

See what you did here? The rabbis weren't asking how how they could love Who they didn't believe in.

And yet, we're not commanded to believe in God. Weird, eh?

In other words, bring others to faith in God by doing what you believe God has said.

First of all, it's not what "I believe" God has said. It's right there in the bible. And second of all, my actions have nothing to do with another person's belief.

I already showed how God was displeased when people didn't believe in him, so unbelief is contrary to his will.

How can belief be contrary to God's will if He never commanded it?

Well Fenris, a statement one is expected to obey is a command.

Those are two different words. Weird.

Telling people they don't need to believe in God is a very bad thing to do.

Whether a person believes of not is less important than how they behave. That's why there's such an exhaustive list of God's commands yet not one is to believe.

[journeyman]

And yet, we're not commanded to believe in God. Weird, eh?

Whats fascinating is, we can't love God unless we first believe that he exists.

First of all, it's not what "I believe" God has said. It's right there in the bible.

And you believe what's in the Bible is what God said.

And second of all, my actions have nothing to do with another person's belief.

The rabbis....saying that one should bring others to love God through their actions.

Now you're contradicting what you claim your rabbis taught.

How can belief be contrary to God's will if He never commanded it?

Once you understand that no body can love God unless they first believe in him, it's really very simple.

Those are two different words. Weird.

Not weird at all, if you consider who uttered them.

Whether a person believes of not is less important than how they behave.

This sounds like it came out of the atheist handbook.

That's why there's such an exhaustive list of God's commands yet not one is to believe.

No, that's not why the commandments were written