The Messiah

[Not Worthy]

Be ready to make an apologian for the hope that is within you, with meekness and gentleness.

There is every reason, especially in light of the post-modern, deconstructionist world in which we live, that we should even more be ready to explain to all, including non-God fearers and our friends that fear and love God, the hope that we have in Christ.

Disrespect is not becoming of a believer, and we have plenty of that on the forum attacking those that do not share either our faith in Christ or our interpretative models.  Some believe, incorrectly, that the use of sarcasm or irony is ab initio and on its face "disrespectful," which is simply not true.  Just ask Jesus or Paul.

Each of us has his or her individual communication process and style, and the ability to work with others within that context is crucial if we are indeed going to be able to properly make our apoligian. 

It's not my board, but if you allow one, you must allow all, and since there are billions of skeptics and unbelievers in the world, when even a tiny fraction of them come to start rubbishing Christianity in every Christian conversation held between Christians, this will not be a Christian Bible Discussion forum for very long, but merely an apologetic forum that not many Christians will bother with for too long, because you can only feed pearls for so long before you realize that they're being fed to people who will never appreciate them.

That is, unless admin allows only certain favorite skeptics and unbelievers to attack and insult Christian beliefs repeatedly in a "Teachers Pet" petty kind of way.  I hope for example, in order to prove what you say is true, that Muslims too will be allowed to join in every conversation in order to attack aspects of Christianity (such as the Deity of Christ), but I doubt that would be allowed here - they will probably be prevented because some of them may start attacking Israel too.

See what I mean?

If we spent as much time on Galatians 5 as we do trying to pin down the date and time of Jesus' second coming or in bashing Jews over their politics, current national security issues, or espousing an eschatology that demands that "more dead Jews = Jesus comes sooner," then perhaps our Jewish friends would actually listen to what we have to say about the hope that we have in Jesus.

My post has absolutely nothing to do with bashing Jews. Christians should not be bashing anyone, especially not because the person may be identified with a particular group of humanity, whether Jew, Muslim, or any other. That's not what I'm talking about at all, so why it's in the forefront of your mind is something I can't know.

Galatians 5, the fruit of the Spirit does not mean Christians need to throw wisdom and logic out the window. My point was that there are boards where attacks on Christianity would be acceptable, for example Controversial Issues, Apologetics, or whatever name the board is given. But to make every single board available to anyone who wants to butt into a solely Christian topic in a Christian board such as this one and insult people, then you need to bear in mind that you have allowed this entire BibleForum to become an Apolgetics Board for Christianity bashers, and nothing more.

[Not Worthy]

And the crux of the matter as to what to believe is all centered around the NT. If one accepts the NT as holy writ, it leads in one direction, and if they don't, it leads to another. And because one either accepts or rejects the NT based on faith, we have reached the bedrock from where we can go no further. One's faith is their faith.

And, with respect to you, since you know that (and I'm sure you have known that for decades of your life), then you should always disagree or comment as respectfully as you have just done if you're commenting in Christian boards.

No Christian has the right to join (for example) a Jewish board, and bash Judaism or the Jewish understanding of Messiah. Even if he does so respectfully he probably won't last long before getting blocked, and quite rightly so.

Your post I quoted above was good info for any Christian who isn't already aware of the facts you pointed out. Many Christians like myself are aware of it. It's quite obvious that what you mentioned is one of the reasons why most Jews have never accepted Christ. 

He fulfills the prophecies in ways they do not expect. It's not only understandable, but every Gentile Christian who has ever read and taken to heart Romans 11 (for example) will always remember that we have been brought to faith in Christ through nothing less than God's mercy, and we have absolutely 0.00 right to judge Jews who have not believed.

Most of us (like myself) love the Jews and even though my thoughts about the state called Israel and the conflict involved there, tell me that the Lord is not willing that I should take sides (because God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance/faith in Christ, and has only commanded Christians to share the gospel with all nations and nothing else), my heart always winds up taking the side of the Jews in Israel whenever conflict breaks out. My heart supports Israel, my head tells me I should not be taking sides. My heart wins, but my head permits it as long as I don't start hating other nations in the process.

[RabbiKnife]

Note to self:

Fenris has been a member of this forum (in this and in its previous iteration) for more than 15 years.  He is a God fearing man of Jewish heritage and faith that is very well respected and whom has provided a wealth of historical insight into the Torah, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings for many, many years, insight from a viewpoint that sadly many Christians and the majority on Christian only boards do not understand, and sadly, do not care to understand.

How can we understand a text if we don't have a clue as to how the original hearer/reader may have understood it?

Suggesting that a long-time member should be "blocked" -- AND RIGHTLY SO -- is a bit short sighted.

We should not fear the skeptic, or the agnostic, or the Muslim, or the truly God-fearing Jew.  If I truly believe the Christian faith that I claim to espouse, then I should never shy away from interaction with any that truly seek God, regardless of their cultural, historical, or theological starting point. 

Who knows, maybe some people that claim to know Jesus will actually meet Him, too.

And, if I'm ever in NYC, I'll be hitting my friend up for a room for the night for this goyim.  Mrs. F, I have it on good information, cooks a mean brisket.

[Not Worthy]

Note to all:

I never suggested that Fenris or anyone else should be blocked. I don't believe he should. My point is if someone is a non-Christian posting in a Christian discussion board then he should make respectful comments without engaging in Christian-bashing or insults leveled at the poster, or else keep the not-so nice comments reserved to a board in the same forums more fitting for the purpose.

Christians bashing one another's beliefs and interpretations and insulting one another is not considered acceptable, and rightly so (though it will probably always happen), so no exceptions should be made for others if they are posting in Christian boards just because they are non-Christians.

[RabbiKnife]

I think the "respectful" and "non-faith" bashing should go both ways, and sadly, Christians are by far, in my experience -- which is not slight-- the most disrespectful and bashing of others (either Christian or not).

To our great shame.

[Not Worthy]

I think the "respectful" and "non-faith" bashing should go both ways, and sadly, Christians are by far, in my experience -- which is not slight-- the most disrespectful and bashing of others (either Christian or not).

To our great shame.

No bashing of another's faiths should indeed go both ways. No insults leveled at people who are of any particular faith because of their faith either.

My only question to you is: How many insults should our Lord Jesus Christ have to take while Christians allow a free run for those who want to bash the faith He shed His blood to establish, in your opinion?

[RabbiKnife]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I don't think Jesus is worried in the slightest about people "insulting" him on a Christian internet forum.  See, He already paid the ultimate price for that Himself, so I guess if He's worried about it, He can handle it.

Jesus himself said that "all manner of insults against the Son of Man will be forgiven."

Jesus didn't shed His blood to establish a faith or religion.  He shed His blood to pay the propitiation for sin, once and for all.
People poo pooing that on an internet sight are not even an issue.

We are told to give an answer for the hope that is within us.  We are not told to "defend Jesus from insults."
The "defending of Deity or the prophets" is more of an Islamic response for a small deity and a small prophet.

[Not Worthy]

I'm going to make an attempt to get back to topic in this thread by first re-posting my first post and then deleting the first one:

I think you Christian guys posting here are all missing something (Note: I'm a Christian, so talking here from a Christian perspective about a Christian question):

The world in the days of Noah wasn't judged the day the floods came. The flood was just the carrying out of the decreed sentence which had already been passed when the world was judged 120 years earlier:

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." Gen 6:3

"And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them." Gen 6:6-7

"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make an ark of cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark..." Gen 6:13-14a

God had already judged the world, and the world had already been found guilty. The sentence had been passed but not carried out yet. There was still a chance to get into the ark, and many were no doubt called into the ark, but few (8 souls) were chosen.

The ark is a picture of Christ:

"Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself." John 12:31-32

"And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

The judgment of the world has already come, the sentence already passed, and Jesus is our ark:

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." John 3:17

"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Hebrews 11:7

"The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

The judgment does not lie in the future. The carrying out of the sentence is coming. John saw death and hades delivering up all the dead in them at the end of the time in the current heavens and earth. The books were  opened and all whose names were not written in the book of Life were cast into the Lake of fire. Rev 20:11-15. The Great White Throne is not the judgment. It's the carrying out of the sentence.

PS: When the world was judged, the judgment fell on Christ. The floods came upon the ark, but the ark was lifted up out of the destruction. Those in the ark were saved. But only those in the ark.

[Athanasius]

My only question to you is: How many insults should our Lord Jesus Christ have to take...

This is too arbitrary a question that implies an answer of 'none', when in fact Jesus has already taken every insult that has been or will be uttered in this present age. That's not an excuse for a free-for-all, but this forum is not a free-for-all, and let's be real about who the person of Jesus is. Of all the evils in the world, words written on a forum aren't anywhere near the worst.

Perhaps these Christians who 'allow a free run' are interested in the argument, debate, the intellectual exchange of ideas, etc. etc. We really don't need to get offended on Jesus' behalf. Besides, words are an easy target and a convenient distraction.

And like RK said, Jesus didn't die to establish Christianity. You know, just to stay on topic. 

[journeyman]

Or they don't. I mean, it's possible.

No it isn't possible, because all of the gentiles you're speaking to is the result of God fulfilling his word,

him shall the nations seek Isa.11:10

Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Messiah. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you may now dismiss[fn] your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all nations: a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel." Lk.2:25-32

[Fenris]

No it isn't possible

Anything is possible. I mean, guy, we could all be wrong. Maybe the Muslims are right. Or the people who still worship trees and rocks. Or Cthulhu. Of course it's unlikely. But possible.

because all of the gentiles you're speaking to is the result of God fulfilling his word,

him shall the nations seek Isa.11:10

Again, this could apply to lots of religious figures. Confucius. Or Buddha. Or perhaps someone who is yet to live.

The other things is that when you quote Is 11 you can't ignore the context. Because the chapter says other things too, not just verse 10. For example,

He will raise a banner for the nations
    and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
    from the four quarters of the earth.

Which has clearly yet to happen.

Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Messiah. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you may now dismiss[fn] your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all nations: a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel." Lk.2:25-32

This isn't holy writ to me and thus I have no reason to accept it.

[journeyman]

Note to self:

Fenris has been a member of this forum (in this and in its previous iteration) for more than 15 years.  He is a God fearing man of Jewish heritage and faith that is very well respected and whom has provided a wealth of historical insight into the Torah, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings for many, many years, insight from a viewpoint that sadly many Christians and the majority on Christian only boards do not understand, and sadly, do not care to understand.

RabbiKnife,
Do you believe there is any possibility IsIah 11 refers to Confucius or Buddah? Do you think there is any possibility Islam or people who worship trees are right?

[journeyman]

Anything is possible. I mean, guy, we could all be wrong. Maybe the Muslims are right. Or the people who still worship trees and rocks. Or Cthulhu. Of course it's unlikely. But possible.

Maybe we should start a marijuana farm.

Again, this could apply to lots of religious figures. Confucius. Or Buddha. Or perhaps someone who is yet to live.

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isa.11:1

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” “The son of David,” they replied. Mt.22:41-42

The other things is that when you quote Is 11 you can't ignore the context. Because the chapter says other things too, not just verse 10. For example,

He will raise a banner for the nations
    and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
    from the four quarters of the earth.

Which has clearly yet to happen.

The signal to the gentiles has occured and Gods people are gathered to him by faith in him.

This isn't holy writ to me and thus I have no reason to accept it.

You're still waiting for the Messiah to teach me about the God of the Jews. You're  way late.

[Fenris]

Maybe we should start a marijuana farm.

There's money to be made there, that's for sure.

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isa.11:1

You can't throw this verse out as a qualifier and ignore the rest of the chapter then.  verses 6-8 talk about world peace and 9 talks about universal knowledge of God. These have yet to occur, so quoting verse 1 is at this time premature.

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” “The son of David,” they replied. Mt.22:41-42

Yes, the messiah will be descended from king David. I don't see what the revelation is here.

The signal to the gentiles has occured and Gods people are gathered to him by faith in him.

The gentiles were never "exiled". The Jews were.

You're still waiting for the Messiah to teach me about the God of the Jews. You're  way late.

The messiah's job isn't to teach the gentiles. It's to gather the exiles, amongst other things. Verse 12: He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. As this has not yet occurred, we are still waiting.

[journeyman]

There's money to be made there, that's for sure.

And kooky perspectives of God's word too.

You can't throw this verse out as a qualifier and ignore the rest of the chapter

I cited that verse to show there is no possibility of Confucius or Buddah or another gentile of being the Messiah.

then.  verses 6-8 talk about world peace and 9 talks about universal knowledge of God. These have yet to occur.....

Those verses speak of peace for those in God's holy mountain because of knowledge that is spread worldwide and that has happened because of the Messiah. The Bible never says unbelievers will have his peace,

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: Mt.10:34

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you Jn.14:27

The gentiles were never "exiled". The Jews were.

Jews and gentiles have always lived together.

The messiah's job isn't to teach the gentiles.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills;
all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.Isa.2:2-3

Mind you, "all nations" (gentiles) doesn't mean every gentile, but believing gentiles from every nation.

repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:47

It's to gather the exiles, amongst other things. Verse 12: He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. As this has not yet occurred, we are still waiting.

It is occuring. Walking toward God isn't measured lin miles.