The Messiah

[journeyman]

]You're asking me if I believe that the Jews can be right and the rest of the world wrong. And my answer is yes.

I wasn't asking you about the rest of the world. I was asking you about gentiles who believe in God because of Jesus.

[Fenris]

I wasn't asking you about the rest of the world. I was asking you about gentiles who believe in God because of Jesus.

What about them?

[journeyman]

]What about them?

Are they being deceived?

[Fenris]

Are they being deceived?

Well, let me ask you a question. Are Jews being decieved?

[journeyman]

Well, let me ask you a question. Are Jews being decieved?

Where the identity of the Messiah and his ministry is concerned, yes. It is necessary for gentiles to come to faith in God, as Jewish people did first and no one demonstrated this better than the Messiah.

[Fenris]

Where the identity of the Messiah and his ministry is concerned, yes. It is necessary for gentiles to come to faith in God

Sooooo God is deceiving us?

[journeyman]

Sooooo God is deceiving us?

People deceive themselves by rejecting what we now know the scriptures represent.

[Fenris]

People deceive themselves by rejecting what we now know the scriptures represent.

So maybe you are deceiving yourself. I mean, it's possible.

[Not Worthy]

He was prophesied to defeat the enemies of Gods people and teach everyone about God. This is what our great Lord Jesus did and continues to do.

The defeat of the enemies of God's people part will only  happen when Christ returns and defeats the beast., and again when fire comes down from heaven and destroys the Gog-Magog rebellion after Satan's re-release (or the two are the same, depending on your position about the millennium).

The second part of your first sentence, and your second sentence I agree with.

[Not Worthy]

I see every board in this new Bible Forums is being used by a two-man army as an opportunity to both attack the Christian faith, and make attempts to provoke Christians posting here to anger, and winds up being an apologetic board. Admin can't we please, please have a board where only Christians are allowed to debate Christian issues and Christian questions? Why must every thread be left open to abuse by those wishing to attack the Christian faith?

Let the attacking of the Christian faith remain in the Controversial issues board. PLEASE. PLEASE. Otherwise this is not a Christian Bible discussion forum at all but every board is an apologetic board.

[RabbiKnife]

Be ready to make an apologian for the hope that is within you, with meekness and gentleness.

There is every reason, especially in light of the post-modern, deconstructionist world in which we live, that we should even more be ready to explain to all, including non-God fearers and our friends that fear and love God, the hope that we have in Christ.

Disrespect is not becoming of a believer, and we have plenty of that on the forum attacking those that do not share either our faith in Christ or our interpretative models.  Some believe, incorrectly, that the use of sarcasm or irony is ab initio and on its face "disrespectful," which is simply not true.  Just ask Jesus or Paul.

Each of us has his or her individual communication process and style, and the ability to work with others within that context is crucial if we are indeed going to be able to properly make our apoligian. 

This is especially true in the area of eschatology.  If we spent as much time on Galatians 5 as we do trying to pin down the date and time of Jesus' second coming or in bashing Jews over their politics, current national security issues, or espousing an eschatology that demands that "more dead Jews = Jesus comes sooner," then perhaps our Jewish friends would actually listen to what we have to say about the hope that we have in Jesus.

We need more apologetics, not less.  We need more reasoned explanation of our faith, not more appeals to our desire for either red meat or warm fuzzies.  We need to be pushed, and challenged.  Iron sharpens iron.  Marshmallows don't sharpen anything.

[journeyman]

So maybe you are deceiving yourself. I mean, it's possible.

The scriptures testify of Jesus. You're the one who's wrong.

[journeyman]

The defeat of the enemies of God's people part will only  happen when Christ returns and defeats the beast., and again when fire comes down from heaven and destroys the Gog-Magog rebellion after Satan's re-release (or the two are the same, depending on your position about the millennium).

The second part of your first sentence, and your second sentence I agree with.

The defeat of the beast is an on going occurance, which begins when Christ enters a believers heart,

they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb Rev.12:11

Really, it's overcoming the devil in our lives. The return of our Lord will show the realization of this.

[Fenris]

The scriptures testify of Jesus. You're the one who's wrong.

Or they don't. I mean, it's possible.

[Fenris]

I think it's important to point out that the stumbling block here between Jews and Christians in the difference in how we look for the Messiah in scripture.

Christians are more interested in the messiah's identity. So there will be scripture about him being of the Davidic line, and how he was pierced, and people didn't like him, and so on.

Jews are more interested in the messiah's mission.

Ezekiel 37 is a perfect summary of the Jewish expectation of the messiah and the messianic era generally. I'll quote it again:

This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.  I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.  They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

 “‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.  They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.  I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.  My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people.  Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

To summarize:
The Jews will be returned to the land of Israel.
They will be one nation, not two (Israel and Judah).
There will be scrupulous observance of the Law.
There will be a king from the line of David on the throne (the messiah).
There will be no further exiles from the land.
There will be peace.
There will be a rebuilt temple.
The nations will know that God sanctifies Israel.


Now, some Christians believe that this will still happen. (For example, CUFI, who I am a fan of). A majority however will look at these prophecies and "spiritualize" them. The people of Israel is the "spiritual" Israel, the land of Israel is the "spiritual" land of Israel,  the sanctuary (temple) is the "spiritual" temple, and on and on.

And the crux of the matter as to what to believe is all centered around the NT. If one accepts the NT as holy writ, it leads in one direction, and if they don't, it leads to another. And because one either accepts or rejects the NT based on faith, we have reached the bedrock from where we can go no further. One's faith is their faith.