Israel, Hamas, etc

[Oscar_Kipling]

OK, mister... Who are you and what have you done with our "Oscar."...

 

Haha, I guess he's been slowly disappearing for a while, like the McFly family... but not completely, because like, Back to The Future was my goto analogy...at least it wasn't batman though.

[Fenris]

But, to my question, again as I remember it, it seemed that you were asserting that wiping out Hamas was a thing that could be done without much if any consideration given to any of the other possible contributions that I mention in my post. Do I have you wrong? what are your thoughts?

Just wipe out their military in Gaza. Nothing else matters.

Mainly I'd say the treatment of Palestine and Palestinians. Even if we just consider the change of status quo that will be the result after this war ends (if it ends in a way where this is even relevant) What Israel does will be critical, just wiping out Hamas in Gaza

The Palestinians made their choice and threw in their lot with Hamas. Nobody was worried about German or Japanese civilians during the second world war, because there was a war to be won.  Why is this any different? Where is all the care and concern for Israeli civilians?

isn't going to address the grievances of the Palestinians

Their grievances are addressable. All they have to do is come to the table with reasonable demands, like a state next to Israel, when they are asking for a state in the place of Israel. All they have to do is be willing to live together in peace, instead of using the land they're given to launch further wars.

Israel doesn't have any obligation to give territory to people who want to murder them.

I think those points are important, because I believe that if there is even the whiff of western influences steering the destiny of Iran, not only will there be organic revulsion at that prospect, but I believe that there can be an effective propaganda campaign that can steer a regime change in a direction that is hostile to people and ideas that would facilitate the goals of the west;

The people of Iran want to be free of the Islamic fundamentalists that run the country. They are pro-democracy and pro-west and even I believe, pro-Israel. They would be happy to have help from the west to remove the lunatics that run the country. But we'll never know, because the west is too busy propping them up.

Next, I have to push back on what appears to me to be your idea that Israel could somehow be emancipated from the restraining forces of the west to eliminate Hamas in Palestine without greater repercussions in the region that would directly or indirectly impact American interests. What I mean to say is that it is not unreasonable for America to postulate that if we let Israel 'have at it' that those actions might force our hand to intervene because other radical Islamic forces and/or governments will involve themselves and escalate the conflict. Even if we pretend that Israel itself is not directly relevant to American interests (it is), It matters what Israel does in this war.

Israel has no obligation whatsoever to subsume their national security to what you perceive as "American Interests". What's more, I think you're totally wrong.  A strong Israel is better for American interests in the region, and a weak Israel is worse.

Likewise attempting to somehow untether actions that the US and allies would make to change regimes in Iran from Israel is unreasonable. Israel would be critical to the success of any such operation, in expertise, in intelligence information, and in resources. Moreover it would make no sense that Israel would not want to be directly involved and have the ability to very meaningfully effect any such plan at essentially every level is not reasonable. Even if I gave you that Israel has no responsibility (they do), I cannot give you that they would not accept or take responsibility in something that so directly affects them. I don't know that it is anyone's job per se, but even if Israel isn't the construction manager, they are definitely a foreman on the job site.   

This is laughable. Israel has *responsibility* to affect regime change in another country? Who else has this responsibility ? Who gave Israel this responsibility? What responsibilities do people in other countries have?

I hope that clarifies my thoughts somewhat. and I hope you take the time to clarify your thoughts to me.

Yeah you've clarified your positions. They're bizarre.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Just wipe out their military in Gaza. Nothing else matters.

Well, It has been well understood by me that this is you believe this is the highest priority, but what I've been trying to get at is if you can see any consequences or fallout from setting this as the highest priority where nothing else matters. I get it if you are saying that you don't care about any possible consequences or precipitants, but I'm asking if you can envision any reasonably predictable repercussions.

The Palestinians made their choice and threw in their lot with Hamas. Nobody was worried about German or Japanese civilians during the second world war, because there was a war to be won.  Why is this any different?

I don't believe that the argument that "since they didn't do it in the 1940's, so we shouldn't either" is especially compelling. Regardless, Of course people worried about German and Japanese civilians and made at least some decisions based on post war civilian considerations. Pretending that the world had some single monolithic opinion about civilian casualties back then is not only incorrect, but even if it was correct they also thought radium and lead were great paint additives, so maybe their positions were not entirely unassailable.

Anyway this is all beside the point, I was mostly talking about the post war concerns between Israel and Palestine. Even If Israel manages to destroy and drive Hamas out of Gaza the reasons why they came to power will still exist and may even be exacerbated, and that is a problem. if Hamas as an organization is wiped out completely, and nothing changes in the relationship between Israel and Palestine then a new Hamas can find fertile soil to grow and we'll be doing this all over again in 15 or 20 years.

Where is all the care and concern for Israeli civilians?

It seems to me, and this is just my opinion that "care and concern for Israeli civilians" in your mind must come in the form of "Just wipe out their military in Gaza. Nothing else matters.". My concern that there is a legitimate risk that this will escalate and or repeat and kill more Israeli civilians is concern. I think that it is possible that both Israeli's and Palestinians and folks around them both stand to lose many more civilians over many generations.

Their grievances are addressable. All they have to do is come to the table with reasonable demands, like a state next to Israel, when they are asking for a state in the place of Israel. All they have to do is be willing to live together in peace, instead of using the land they're given to launch further wars.
Israel doesn't have any obligation to give territory to people who want to murder them.

oh, does Netanyahu support a Palestinian state these days?

The people of Iran want to be free of the Islamic fundamentalists that run the country. They are pro-democracy and pro-west and even I believe, pro-Israel. They would be happy to have help from the west to remove the lunatics that run the country. But we'll never know, because the west is too busy propping them up.

sounds easy when you say it like that. Do you believe that it is as simple and primed for success as your post indicates, if so Why?

Israel has no obligation whatsoever to subsume their national security to what you perceive as "American Interests". What's more, I think you're totally wrong.  A strong Israel is better for American interests in the region, and a weak Israel is worse. 

you did not understand the thrust of my statement. My point was that Israel's actions are likely to affect the US therefore it makes sense for the US to care how Israel acts. You are right, Israel is an adult and is free to disregard anything the US says. In a very real sense the idea that they are being held back is actually just Israel holding themselves back because they do not want to face the consequences if disregarding the US. Pretending that our countries interests are not tied to each other is kind of pointless just like pretending that wars against terrorists organizations are as simple as 'wipe em out over there' and you're done. I don't think that the US wants Israel weak, but I do not think they are exactly aligned on what that means.
   

This is laughable. Israel has *responsibility* to affect regime change in another country? Who else has this responsibility ? Who gave Israel this responsibility? What responsibilities do people in other countries have? 

I'm saying that overthrowing the Iranian government is as much Israel's responsibility as it is the US or EU's. Personally I think the proposition of an engineered coup is extremely fraught and carries with it the great risk of going terribly wrong and leaving the area worse off in the long run. At least Iran's current tyrannical government is kind of stable and sort of predictable. I don't trust any of those governments to do it, but much less to do it alone. At least together it has a higher chance of success. It makes no sense to me that anyone would engage in such a project and Israel would just sit it out when it would directly impact the country....but again I don't think its a great idea regardless.

Yeah you've clarified your positions. They're bizarre.

I think its bizarre to have lived through 9/11 and America's ventures in the middle east over the last 20 years and not have any sense of consequences of actions. I mean idk how old you are , but like didn't you live through like the 80's, were you alive for the Islamic revolution? I don't know how your take on everything is so simplistic.

[Fenris]

Well, It has been well understood by me that this is you believe this is the highest priority

It IS the highest priority.

Imagine if after 9/11 someone said that wiping out Al Qaeda wasn't the highest priority.

Imagine if after 12/7 someone said that toppling totalitarian Japan wasn't the highest priority.

but what I've been trying to get at is if you can see any consequences or fallout from setting this as the highest priority where nothing else matters. I get it if you are saying that you don't care about any possible consequences or precipitants, but I'm asking if you can envision any reasonably predictable repercussions.

I don't care. That's the world's problem, not Israel's problem.

Jews were murdered for being Jews. We're not going back to where that was normal. Don't attack Israel and nothing bad will happen to you. Simple equation.

I don't believe that the argument that "since they didn't do it in the 1940's, so we shouldn't either" is especially compelling. Regardless, Of course people worried about German and Japanese civilians and made at least some decisions based on post war civilian considerations.

No, they didn't.

On March 10, 1945, the US Air Force dropped  1700 tons of fire bombs on Tokyo. The attack killed 100,000 Japanese people and injured another million, almost all civilians.

Anyway this is all beside the point, I was mostly talking about the post war concerns between Israel and Palestine. Even If Israel manages to destroy and drive Hamas out of Gaza the reasons why they came to power will still exist and may even be exacerbated, and that is a problem.

The reason they came to power is because their platform of genocidal intentions are popular with Palestinians.

After world war 2 nobody asked "why did the Nazis come to power?" Instead the allies went about deNazifying Germany. Gaza needs to be "De-Hamased" or all this was for nothing.

It seems to me, and this is just my opinion that "care and concern for Israeli civilians" in your mind must come in the form of "Just wipe out their military in Gaza. Nothing else matters."

It seems to me that you express concern for Palestinian civilians and not Israeli civilians.

Why is that?

My concern that there is a legitimate risk that this will escalate and or repeat and kill more Israeli civilians is concern.

So you think Israel should tolerate the murder of her citizens, because if they act against entities that murder Israeli citizens, even more Israeli citizens will be murdered?

Really?

oh, does Netanyahu support a Palestinian state these days?

After 10/7 no one should support a Palestinian state.

They have to prove that they're ready. And they're not. Really, really not.

sounds easy when you say it like that.

Maybe it is easy. We won't know until we try.

you did not understand the thrust of my statement. My point was that Israel's actions are likely to affect the US therefore it makes sense for the US to care how Israel acts.

And yet the US government has been wrong, completely wrong, on every single detail of this war. So butt out already.


   

I'm saying that overthrowing the Iranian government is as much Israel's responsibility as it is the US or EU's.

The Mullahs in Iran have an unhealthy obsession with Jews and the state of Israel. That does not make it "Israel's responsibility" to remove them. Was it the Jews responsibility to remove Hitler from power?

I think its bizarre to have lived through 9/11

"Lived through 9/11? I was there. As a first responder.

and America's ventures in the middle east over the last 20 years and not have any sense of consequences of actions.

I know there wasn't another 9/11 scale attack over the last 20 years. So, mission accomplished?

[RabbiKnife]

In case you missed it….

The Mossad boys are crawling on the floor laughing right now….

https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2024/09/17/graphic-content-warning-hundreds-of-hezbollah-members-wounded-when-pagers-explode/

Confirmed from
Multiple sources including some USMilitary

[Fenris]

I'm hearing as of right now, 2500 injured, 200 seriously, 8 fatalities. So far. Some VIPs including members of the Lebanese government and the Iranian diplomat to Lebanon.

[RabbiKnife]

Oops.😬

[Fenris]

Updated figures, 3,000 injured, 50 critically, 10 fatalities.

[Fenris]

At least 18 senior Hizbullah members in Damascus, Syria, are in critical condition.

[RabbiKnife]

That’s a really amazing psyop and kinetic strike…

[Oscar_Kipling]

It IS the highest priority.

Imagine if after 9/11 someone said that wiping out Al Qaeda wasn't the highest priority.

Imagine if after 12/7 someone said that toppling totalitarian Japan wasn't the highest priority.

okay.

I don't care. That's the world's problem, not Israel's problem.

Jews were murdered for being Jews. We're not going back to where that was normal. Don't attack Israel and nothing bad will happen to you. Simple equation.

You've made I clear that you do not care, and have no interest in actually discussing my question, I will no longer pursue this line of questioning.

No, they didn't.

On March 10, 1945, the US Air Force dropped  1700 tons of fire bombs on Tokyo. The attack killed 100,000 Japanese people and injured another million, almost all civilians.

So, your assertion is that because on March 10, 1945, the US Air Force dropped 1700 tons of fire bombs on Tokyo, we can conclude that the US never made any decisions based on post war civilian considerations at any point throughout the entire war? In my mind a single example where the US made any decisions based on post war civilian considerations at any point throughout the entire war would immediately invalidate that assertion. I think I'm once again immersing myself in a pointless argument where details don't matter.

The reason they came to power is because their platform of genocidal intentions are popular with Palestinians.

After world war 2 nobody asked "why did the Nazis come to power?" Instead the allies went about deNazifying Germany. Gaza needs to be "De-Hamased" or all this was for nothing.

I think you are using blanket statements to illustrate your point, but that any counterexamples won't matter because you believe that your statements are fundamentally true if not precisely true. for example, 'Nobody asked' I take it means that 'Any inquiry into the Nazi's rise to power was not of the type or degree that the job of deNazifying Germany was impeded'. If this is all you meant, then I don't want to get caught up in the details of what you said vs what you meant.

If I haven't mischaracterized your meaning, then I can agree that learning the reasons for Hamas' rise to power should not take priority over preventing them from visiting further violence on Israel. I do not think that these are wholly separate endeavors though, effectively De-Hamasing Palestine means understanding how it became Hamased in the first place. If as you said 'The reason they came to power is because their platform of genocidal intentions are popular with Palestinians.' Then killing every Hamas member will still leave you with popular notions of genocide in Palestine. Asking why genocidal intentions are popular with Palestinians is IMO a good question to ask if you want to eliminate the conditions for a future Hamas or Hamas like organization.

It seems to me that you express concern for Palestinian civilians and not Israeli civilians.

Why is that?

I have to ask, in your opinion what would it look like for me to be expressing concern for Israeli civilians? If you believe that If I cared about Israeli citizens, then my opinions would be more aligned with your, then I think you have your answer. I think that most of what you say ranges from simplistic to inaccurate to myopic. I believe that in the long run your sort of thinking doesn't lead to safer Israeli citizens, it leads to a cycle of violence that could very well culminate in the destruction of Israel. I feel that it is safe to say that you do not agree, and you have no capacity or desire to see anything from my perspective, so I would say that this is why I seem uncaring to you. IOW I do not care in a way that makes sense to you, so it seems that I don't care at all.

So you think Israel should tolerate the murder of her citizens, because if they act against entities that murder Israeli citizens, even more Israeli citizens will be murdered?

Really?

Case in point. I have not now nor have I ever asserted that Israeli's should tolerate being murdered. I'm talking about how they react to that, You seem to think that If the reaction isn't the narrow one that you deem to be the only suitable one then it is tantamount to tolerating being murdered. There really isn't any room for discussion  with you.

After 10/7 no one should support a Palestinian state.

They have to prove that they're ready. And they're not. Really, really not.

Did he support it on 10/6 ?

Maybe it is easy. We won't know until we try.

Sure, this is true. I'm more interested in why you believe it would be easy....but at this point I have not real expectation that you have some detailed analysis that has lead you to this conclusion....so unless you plan to surprise me , then I don't need to continue this line of questioning.

And yet the US government has been wrong, completely wrong, on every single detail of this war. So butt out already.

Nah, The US can tell Israel what it wants, and Israel as you pointed out is not obligated to listen. The only thing stopping Israel from 'having at it' is the fear of consequences.
   

The Mullahs in Iran have an unhealthy obsession with Jews and the state of Israel. That does not make it "Israel's responsibility" to remove them. Was it the Jews responsibility to remove Hitler from power?

As much as it was anyone's responsibility. Hitler was literally working to eliminate the Jews from existence, If it is not one's own responsibility to work to maintain their own survival then I don't know that we can meaningfully talk about responsibility.

"Lived through 9/11? I was there. As a first responder.

Well, thank you for your service. However I was talking more about the general era, watching our reactions as America and the repercussions of those actions.

I know there wasn't another 9/11 scale attack over the last 20 years. So, mission accomplished?

Yeah, who can argue with results. I'd argue that it cost us, and we are still making payments.

[Fenris]

You've made I clear that you do not care, and have no interest in actually discussing my question, I will no longer pursue this line of questioning.

We're discussing it. I'm talking about how Jews are defending themselves from a genocidal enemy, and you want to talk about the consequences of Jews defending themselves from a genocidal enemy.

You want to talk about the consequences of Israel's actions.

Why doesn't anyone ever want to talk about the consequences for attacking Israel? As if Israel is just supposed to suck it up and tolerate the murder of her citizens because it would make people like you happy? How about no?

So, your assertion

My assertion is that one fights a war to win. What happens after will happen after. Nobody said "let's not bomb Tokyo or Berlin because of what will happen after the war". They bombed enemy capitals knowing full well that civilians would die, because the enemy state had to be smashed. But somehow Israel alone, of every state ever in the history of the world, is supposed to worry more about the enemy than itself. How about no?

If as you said 'The reason they came to power is because their platform of genocidal intentions are popular with Palestinians.' Then killing every Hamas member will still leave you with popular notions of genocide in Palestine.

That's true, and Gaza has to be deradicalized in the same way that Germany post 1945 was deradicalized. That means occupation and a revamped education system and a forced acceptance of at least some western values.

my perspective, so I would say that this is why I seem uncaring to you.

I would say that you care more the Palestinians than the Israelis. Which is sick, but you're entitled to your opinions.

Case in point. I have not now nor have I ever asserted that Israeli's should tolerate being murdered. I'm talking about how they react to that,

They react to it the way any other country reacts to the murder of it's citizens by an enemy state.

Why do you think a different set of rules should apply to the Jewish state than anyone else?

There's a name for that, you know.

You seem to think that If the reaction isn't the narrow one that you deem to be the only suitable one then it is tantamount to tolerating being murdered. There really isn't any room for discussion  with you.

You seem to think that Jews should be more Christian than Christians.

Did he support it on 10/6 ?

Were Palestinians  ready for a state on 10/6, mere hours before they carried out the largest murder of Jews since the Holocaust?

Sure, this is true. I'm more interested in why you believe it would be easy....but at this point I have not real expectation that you have some detailed analysis that has lead you to this conclusion....so unless you plan to surprise me , then I don't need to continue this line of questioning.

What's interesting is they you place all the responsibility for improving the situation on Israel. Not Hamas, or the Arabs generally, or the Iranians. Just Israel. Why?

Nah, The US can tell Israel what it wants, and Israel as you pointed out is not obligated to listen. The only thing stopping Israel from 'having at it' is the fear of consequences.

Or maybe, just maybe, Israel is trying to fight a moral war with moral means. Or is that too far fetched?
   

As much as it was anyone's responsibility. Hitler was literally working to eliminate the Jews from existence, If it is not one's own responsibility to work to maintain their own survival then I don't know that we can meaningfully talk about responsibility.

So the untrained and unarmed Jews, including women, children, and the elderly, being transported by a vast industrial machine to their own demise, should have removed Hitler from power.

Are you only immoral or also foolish?

[Fenris]

For those interested, for the second day, communication devices are blowing up all over Lebanon. Today it seems to be two way radios. Hundreds of causalities so far, if the reporting is correct.

[tango]

...Hundreds of causalities so far...

In light of the discussion that typo was curiously ironic....

[Sojourner]

For those interested, for the second day, communication devices are blowing up all over Lebanon. Today it seems to be two way radios. Hundreds of causalities so far, if the reporting is correct.

Hard to know the true extent of the damage done as the numbers will be downplayed by the embarrassed terrorist leadership--though the psychological impact is unquestionably immense. You can be sure they're frantically seeking a new source of communication devices, though I'm not sure they'll get as much "bang" for their buck.