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Author Topic: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?  (Read 46585 times)

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tango

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #165 on: February 19, 2024, 04:39:35 PM »
In the above, I see a heartbroken God saying He was going to wipe out humanity because it was hopelessly corrupt, and He regretted bringing it into existence. How do you interpret the text, and how do you explain Him not doing what He said He was going to do?
How does the story end? In fact, what is the very next verse? "But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord."  God spares a righteous remnant to start over with. So obviously God did not intend to wipe out humanity, because otherwise He would have done so.

So when the Lord said "I will blot out man, whom I created" he didn't actually mean he was going to, you know, blot out man whom he created? He meant he was going to blot out most of them. So why would God say he was going to "blot out man" if that's not what he was actually going to do? God didn't say "I will blot out man except for the righteous few".
If you love me, obey my commandments - Jesus
Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law - Aleister Crowley

If we're going to pick and choose which parts of the Bible we follow, we should be honest enough to admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

Fenris

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #166 on: February 20, 2024, 10:32:59 AM »
It's within God's divine prerogatives to respond to a change in circumstances
But... there was no change in circumstances. It's not like God did intended to destroy humanity, then did a survey, and discovered that Noah existed. "Who's this guy? Maybe I'll save him". God did not only know that Noah existed, God always knew that Noah would exist. Even from before creation.
Quote
This is yet another instance in which we'll have to agree to disagree.
I suppose so.
Return to us, O Lord, that we may return to You. Renew our days as of old. -Lamentations 5:21

Fenris

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #167 on: February 20, 2024, 10:33:40 AM »
In all fairness that is a bit circular
See my above response.
Return to us, O Lord, that we may return to You. Renew our days as of old. -Lamentations 5:21

Fenris

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #168 on: February 20, 2024, 10:34:46 AM »
So when the Lord said "I will blot out man, whom I created" he didn't actually mean he was going to, you know, blot out man whom he created?
God actually did blot out man. Except for one dude, with whom he restarted.
Return to us, O Lord, that we may return to You. Renew our days as of old. -Lamentations 5:21

Sojourner

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #169 on: February 20, 2024, 11:23:01 AM »
It's within God's divine prerogatives to respond to a change in circumstances
But... there was no change in circumstances. It's not like God did intended to destroy humanity, then did a survey, and discovered that Noah existed. "Who's this guy? Maybe I'll save him". God did not only know that Noah existed, God always knew that Noah would exist. Even from before creation.
No matter how you slice it, God decided to blot out mankind because it was rotten to the core, but then decided to preserve it instead when one man represented hope for humanity. Yes, God knew about Noah before man was even created, and that He would preserve the human race through him. But that doesn't negate the fact that Noah changed the dynamics of the situation and what God ended up doing. 
Standing before the Judgment Throne we will retain only two things from this life: what God gave us, and what we accomplished with it.

Fenris

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #170 on: February 20, 2024, 11:41:50 AM »
No matter how you slice it, God decided to blot out mankind because it was rotten to the core, but
No "but". "And".

God decided to blot out mankind because it was rotten to the core, AND decided to rebuild humanity from a good person.

Return to us, O Lord, that we may return to You. Renew our days as of old. -Lamentations 5:21

Sojourner

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #171 on: February 20, 2024, 01:26:47 PM »
No matter how you slice it, God decided to blot out mankind because it was rotten to the core, but
No "but". "And".

God decided to blot out mankind because it was rotten to the core, AND decided to rebuild humanity from a good person.

Semantics, my friend. Preserving mankind through Noah was an alternative plan to wiping it out as He was about to do. And that's a change in plans no matter how you look at it. But, let's leave it there and consider the case of Hezekiah:

God sent Isaiah to tell the ailing king to set his affairs in order because his time was short. That was the plan. Yet, when Hezekiah prayed to the Lord, God stopped Isaiah before he left the house to tell the king his prayer was heard and he would be granted 15 more years of life. Yes, God already knew these things would take place, but Hezekiah's prayer prompted God to change His plan for the king by prolonging his life. That amounts to God responding to a change in the circumstances.
Standing before the Judgment Throne we will retain only two things from this life: what God gave us, and what we accomplished with it.

Fenris

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #172 on: February 20, 2024, 01:54:10 PM »
Semantics, my friend. Preserving mankind through Noah was an alternative plan
Preserving mankind through Noah was the plan from the start.

Quote
But, let's leave it there and consider the case of Hezekiah:

God sent Isaiah to tell the ailing king to set his affairs in order because his time was short. That was the plan. Yet, when Hezekiah prayed to the Lord, God stopped Isaiah before he left the house to tell the king his prayer was heard and he would be granted 15 more years of life. Yes, God already knew these things would take place, but Hezekiah's prayer prompted God to change His plan for the king by prolonging his life. That amounts to God responding to a change in the circumstances.
It looks more to me like God was waiting for Hezekiah to pray, as He knows Hezekiah will.

God is not bound by time or space as we are. God created time and space and so is above them. God already knows everything that we're going to do and how the story ends. Nothing we do takes Him by surprise or makes Him change His mind.
Return to us, O Lord, that we may return to You. Renew our days as of old. -Lamentations 5:21

tango

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #173 on: February 20, 2024, 08:12:36 PM »
So when the Lord said "I will blot out man, whom I created" he didn't actually mean he was going to, you know, blot out man whom he created?
God actually did blot out man. Except for one dude, with whom he restarted.

If you want to argue that way you could say that God did require the festivals to be observed eternally, except for the time after about 33AD.
If you love me, obey my commandments - Jesus
Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law - Aleister Crowley

If we're going to pick and choose which parts of the Bible we follow, we should be honest enough to admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

Fenris

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Re: Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?
« Reply #174 on: February 21, 2024, 01:24:39 PM »
If you want to argue that way you could say that God did require the festivals to be observed eternally, except for the time after about 33AD.
Except that God created the qualifier "forever" with regards to the commandments.

God does the same thing after the flood: Genesis 8:

...the Lord said to Himself, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done. So long as the earth exists, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

and again in Gen 9:

And I will establish My covenant with you, and never again will all flesh be cut off by the flood waters, and there will never again be a flood to destroy the earth". And God said: "This is the sign of the covenant, which I am placing between Me and between you, and between every living soul that is with you, for everlasting generations. My rainbow I have placed in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Myself and the earth. .. And I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and between you and between every living creature among all flesh, and the water will no longer become a flood to destroy all flesh."

Now, according to your logic, even though God said that he would never again smite all living things in a giant flood, He actually could do it, because He didn't really mean that He would never do it. He just meant "I wont do it forever except until I do".
Return to us, O Lord, that we may return to You. Renew our days as of old. -Lamentations 5:21

 

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