Distractions: Alcohol, Guns, Pornography, Video Games, Gambling...

[IMINXTC]

Praying daily for you as it appears from your statements that these issues are consuming a great deal of your peace of mind, and somehow leading to fears of sin or worse.

Not sure how much or of what type of counseling you have been involved in but there is certainly a resolution in prayer.

Asking that the Lord gives you peace in this and greatly blesses your family and your continued service to His name.

Will be watching in prayer.

ADDED: Confident that you will go on to help others struggling in this area.


 

[Athanasius]

I can not even imagine what gender dysphoria means in practice, not to know what you are, man, female or something in between, the latter not mentioned in Scripture, for millennia trampled, it's only since a year of 10 (or so) it has the attention of medical science and the media.

That's the fun stuff. Clearly, I'm male, but just as clearly, to me, I'm not/shouldn't have been. The teleological language is interesting, and I think indefensible, on examination. Mind you, since DSDs exist and those unfortunate souls are the sole authority of their identity, despite the complications of their biology, then... that's interesting to think about.

I am a 100% heterosexual man, when I see 2 men kissing on TV my stomach is turning, when 2 women are kissing I (oddly) suddenly have less problems (the hypocrite I am) and it takes a bit longer to zap.

I mean, two of a thing you like doing a thing you like.

What I am saying is that gender (whether male or female) is so important and essential for a human being and that the slightest doubt on who and what you are is a receipt for trouble. Freud was right, man or female both are sexual beings, it's an identity thing. Many people don't realize it, the few times I said it (you are a sexual being) they look shocked with a look on their face: never mind, he was always a bit strange.

Yes, and also the determiner of one's foundational experience of the world.

Regarding HRT, as you perhaps remember I am getting every 3 months a hormone injection which is giving me (so far 7) extra years on the planet. It's pure physical and I don't have any problem with it, despite (as I am told) have become a bit more social, which my case can't harm  Of course your HRT is quite different but survival is also inborn and not sinful by definition. In your case I would have done the same.

I think you did mention that yeah. I was also on injections every 3 months when I was doing TRT, except, I was miserable. On ERT I'm apparently quite more socially aware, chatty, able to successfully tell stories, happy, etc. But yes, very much a survival consideration.

I doubt that too, I ran into my own limitations at the age of 38, unable to change myself, no matter how hard I prayed, no matter how many people prayed for me, no matter how hard I tried. I am at relative peace with it now, I wish it were different but I know the person I wanted to be is not in my reach.

Yeah, it's not an easy thing. ;\

Would you say if you were not a Christian your life would be better? Better in the sense that as a non Christian sin would not be an issue.

I don't know that it would be better (surely not), but there's a good chance I would be ignorant of the weight of the question of sin, and so, not so psychologically troubled. So what you're getting at, yeah. I'd rather struggle with the weight of that question, though.

[Athanasius]

Praying daily for you as it appears from your statements that these issues are consuming a great deal of your peace of mind, and somehow leading to fears of sin or worse.

Thank you. Existence is weighty, yes. For everyone, it's just that I have had to confront myself/am confronted by myself, and maybe others haven't. But it's also true that this issue/question/concern has consumed me for a long time. As I think it would anyone if they were told their identity was fundamentally sinful (in a different way beyond the usual Augustinian view).

Not sure how much or of what type of counseling you have been involved in but there is certainly a resolution in prayer.

~20 years of counselling, therapy, psychologists, you name it. Prayer all that time too, and more. Then there are my own educational pursuits. The issue is that I'm the result of an imperfect Christian upbringing, one which was too black-and-white, and far too extreme in its moral pronouncements and sin judgments. I wouldn't hesitate to take a pill for depression (those didn't work by the way), and no one would reasonably claim depression is sinful (ahem, well...), but gender dysphoria? A recognised medical condition? Different story.

ADDED: Confident that you will go on to help others struggling in this area.

Slowly, very slowly writing.

[RandyPNW]

To be very blunt, I have to go with Scripture, and reject the whole idea of opposite gender hormone treatments. For me, the thing that causes the dysphoria is the strong presence of opposite gender hormones. We all have some male/female imbalance, but some have it far greater than others.

Our society is telling us that we are "women" in men's' bodies if we find ourselves with high estrogen levels, that we are "men" in women's bodies if we find ourselves with high testosterone levels. But the fact is, we are determined by God to be men or women at birth, and the presence of strong hormones of the opposite gender doesn't change that and doesn't justify our pursuing becoming the opposite gender.

I could give a personal testimony to why I believe as I do, apart from Scriptural standards, but that would compromise people who are close to me. I'm glad you bring up your own condition because it needs to be discussed, particularly when there are other religious beliefs fighting for our attention. To appeal to our lowest common interests is something we need to fight, and not capitulate to.

Let me just say that I've seen strict Christian families not be perfect, but still establish Christian ground rules for the family. The fact the parents are flawed does not mean they've been abusive and cause rebellion in the children. Pastor's kids are notorious for being rebellious.

The fact is, the presence of the Law of God in any family brings out the worst in the kids, because they are more aware of God's demands. This brings out an internal, psychological revulsion to being controlled. The reaction should be to  avoid this inward revulsion, and find a way to embrace God's Law.

I've seen this process make a terrible mess of individuals. They just have to persist through this and do the right thing. Letting ourselves be spiritually conquered by God, and by His rights over us, is, I believe, the answer. It creates a spiritual change--yes, even for those already Christian. And the power so released can enable anybody to overcome any psychological tendencies, albeit imperfectly.

Just my thoughts on the matter--not to make A. more depressed, but just to express the thoughts of my own conscience. This is hopefully how I would handle it if it was me in this condition. Quite frankly, we all have conditions like this we struggle continually with, and I need not name them.

[RabbiKnife]

What about dysphoria not caused by too many of the opposite sex hormone?

[IMINXTC]

To be very blunt, I have to go with Scripture, and reject the whole idea of opposite gender hormone treatments.

We would all be at greater ease if scripture did actually address this, or perhaps I couldn't find it.

"Matthew 19:12, KJV: For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it"

The Bible does cite instances of men interfering with the human sex apparatus for specific purposes, including service to the faith.

If what we are discussing here is a physiological condition that is causing great frustration in the life of a believer who has opted to live a Godly life as a male, for the sake of conscience and testimony, and a proven medical procedure provides relief in spite of several changes to the body, in direct approval of his understanding spouse, I, for one, would opt for mercy.

Having served for nearly 38 years in the mission field where this type of struggle often arises to various degrees of severity, I see nothing here that would suggest a deliberate affection for what is wrong or perverse, but rather, a need for the freedom to function in good conscience.

I have a certain confidence in overcoming, persistent prayer and am determined to see the ravages of this persistent issue laid largely to rest.

[RandyPNW]

I write stuff not to be "pals." I write stuff that I think will help someone spiritually, which is a greater form of love for someone than being their "pal."

I don't love X any less if he is a sinner, and not a saint. I do empathize with conditions, and we all have them--some suffering much worse than others.

I think there is a special place in heaven for those who overcome very difficult circumstances, and I think God has great patience and long-suffering towards those who suffer in ways others don't understand.

Still, I'm a slave to *my understanding* of the Scriptures. I'm more loyal to that than to anything else.

[IMINXTC]

Still, I'm a slave to *my understanding* of the Scriptures. I'm more loyal to that than to anything else.

Citing the pertinent scriptures would be immensely helpful. Thanks.

[Athanasius]

To be very blunt, I have to go with Scripture, and reject the whole idea of opposite gender hormone treatments

Scripture doesn't speak on gender dysphoria as a psychological condition and the treatment of it thereof, just as it doesn't speak on depression as a psychological condition and the treatment of it thereof. This is a different consideration from, say, prohibitions against cross-dressing in light of neighbouring pagan religious customs.

You're also free to reject the idea, but it's the only thing that's worked for me, so unless you have an alternative - and I'm all ears - I'm going to file this away with the other rejections that are accompanied by a suspicious lack of alternative solutions.

For me, the thing that causes the dysphoria is the strong presence of opposite gender hormones. We all have some male/female imbalance, but some have it far greater than others.

No, we don't all have a 'male/female imbalance'.

And no, dysphoria is not caused by 'the strong presence of opposite gender hormones'. I can speak on this personally, because my dysphoria was worse when I was on TRT, meaning that my hormonal levels were well within the normal male range, while my dysphoria is much better on ERT, now that my hormone levels are within a normal female range. Also, prior to either form of HRT I had male-typical estrogen levels, and low testosterone. My dysphoria was worse than on ERT but not as bad as when on TRT. If there is a biochemical element at play - and I think there is - then it's linked to higher levels of testosterone, not higher levels of estrogen.

For me, at least.

Our society is telling us that we are "women" in men's' bodies if we find ourselves with high estrogen levels, that we are "men" in women's bodies if we find ourselves with high testosterone levels. But the fact is, we are determined by God to be men or women at birth, and the presence of strong hormones of the opposite gender doesn't change that and doesn't justify our pursuing becoming the opposite gender.

If society emphasises anything it's stereotypical play, habit, interests, etc., and not hormone levels. That said, I am fully aware of what I'm doing, my agency hasn't been compromised, and I haven't been subject to the deceptive wiles of society. Or, 'society' appeals to brain/sex studies such as Zhou et al, and so on.

I could give a personal testimony to why I believe as I do, apart from Scriptural standards, but that would compromise people who are close to me. I'm glad you bring up your own condition because it needs to be discussed, particularly when there are other religious beliefs fighting for our attention. To appeal to our lowest common interests is something we need to fight, and not capitulate to.

Why would you be compromising the people close to you, given you could easily convey information anonymously? Well, you'd be placing my experience vs. the experience of others, so I don't think it really matters what you know from the people around you, given that I'm in question.

This is hopefully how I would handle it if it was me in this condition.

Being misinformed is not a good way to handle things.

[Athanasius]

I write stuff not to be "pals." I write stuff that I think will help someone spiritually, which is a greater form of love for someone than being their "pal."

I don't love X any less if he is a sinner, and not a saint. I do empathize with conditions, and we all have them--some suffering much worse than others.

I think there is a special place in heaven for those who overcome very difficult circumstances, and I think God has great patience and long-suffering towards those who suffer in ways others don't understand.

Still, I'm a slave to *my understanding* of the Scriptures. I'm more loyal to that than to anything else.

I have no idea what you thought was helpful about your previous reply.

[IMINXTC]

I have worn leg braces for 66 years now and without them life would be nearly untenable to say the least.

Without the blessings of medical technology, I would be in an awful condition and no amount of overcoming could change that.  And this is in no way a matter of personal choices.

God has provided the means for me to cope in an otherwise very limited situation.

While gender dysphoria is relatively new as far as the medical world is concerned, it is an increasing reality, likely based on the growing disarray of the human genome, environmental toxins etc. and should be understood in those terms lest we begin to condemn folks for things beyond their control.

A few years on and we will have a greater depth of understanding where it concerns this medical issue and how to deal with it, even within the community of faith.

[Fenris]

While not being particularly helpful, I feel that life is complicated. That sometimes we're forced to make decisions where there aren't really any good choices and we have to pick the one that seems least bad. Being a religious person and a bible reader isn't necessarily helpful because the situation one faces my not have a clear biblical analogue. To wit, there's a giant field in Jewish law called "medical ethics" where the leading rabbis of any generation debate the finer points of what is or isn't permitted in a given situation. For example, DNRs (Do Not Resuscitate orders). When is it ok to sign one and when would signing one be akin to suicide? (or murder in the case of a proxy). And the answer isn't simple.

And of course the so called "faithful" who give the knee jerk reaction, point a finger, and say "you're wrong" are being both completely unhelpful and also completely insensitive.

Just my two cents.

[RandyPNW]

Still, I'm a slave to *my understanding* of the Scriptures. I'm more loyal to that than to anything else.

Citing the pertinent scriptures would be immensely helpful. Thanks.

I know the Law of Moses proscribed the use of crossover dress--not to argue whether kilts were "ungodly," not to argue whether women can "wear pants," but rather, to disallow gender confusion with a homosexual purpose. This is why I think that hormonal treatments that cause gender transition to be ungodly, though it does not necessarily infer homosexuality.

It's just that causing the gender confusion itself appears to be a homosexual act in itself to God, who seems to want us to remain firmly in the gender we were given at birth. In other words, it is not just "sexual," ie fornication, to God, but rather, a defiance of gender roles He personally determined for us.

I have no medical expertise in this, and am open-minded as to the health value various treatments may have. But if the dysphoria is purely "psychological," then these treatments are satisfying the wish for gender transition, and as such, has to do more with mental health than with bodily health, though these two things can indeed be related.

And mental health can be determined by obsessions that are disallowed by God. For example, a kleptomaniac may have an obsession for stealing things, and a pyromaniac may have an obsession for starting fires. Some people have an inordinate amount of sexual urges, and fighting these urges may cause stress. People may have opposite gender impulses, and it may cause stress to resist this. Resisting evil impulses may indeed cause a sense of confusion over identity.

Nevertheless, the point I'm making is that it is a noble thing to endure hardship for the sake of God's Kingdom, to endure identity crisis and confusion over our personal impulses. I'm just trying to stay true to God's word the best I can, and take care not to encourage someone in the wrong direction--one that may appear helpful for now, but later, will produce bad fruit in family and country, as well as before God.

[RandyPNW]

To be very blunt, I have to go with Scripture, and reject the whole idea of opposite gender hormone treatments

Scripture doesn't speak on gender dysphoria as a psychological condition and the treatment of it thereof, just as it doesn't speak on depression as a psychological condition and the treatment of it thereof. This is a different consideration from, say, prohibitions against cross-dressing in light of neighbouring pagan religious customs.

The Scriptures do speak to the issue of gender confusion, and that's what I draw upon--not your personal experience. You have to live by your conscience, and I have to live by mine. This area appears to be vague for you, based on your experience, and yet you have spiritual/ethical concerns about it.

My experience is different, and I come to different conclusions than you do. We just have to follow God for ourselves. I don't hate you regardless--God's grace and long suffering is among His qualities. The whole idea of a "Gospel" indicates He desires us to know and to understand things. And I do believe it's a *process.* So I truly do appreciate your willingness to discuss this, along with your honesty.

Your medical condition did seem to suggest hormonal issues, eg low testosterone, which for me indicated a hormonal imbalance. But I don't believe physical substances alone account for our physical and mental health issues, although I would disagree with you on the ubiquity of hormonal imbalances in us all.

There is also a social/spiritual component that impacts our health. As I said, God's Law can be introduced into our lives in a way that elicits a negative reaction. It is our duty to process God's word in the form of obedience, instead of arguing with the agency through which that word comes into our lives.

The instrument of God's word is often flawed. But instead of fighting the messenger, we can obey the message, as painful as it feels in our native condition.

Some definitely have trials more difficult than others, based on what they were saddled with hereditarily. But God has the right to inflict upon us whatever tests He has determined for us in creating us. It may be *extremely painful,* physically or psychologically. We just have no choice but to obey the voice of God.

But you have to decide for yourself. As far as I'm concerned even if gender transitions were legal with God, it is just as important, spiritually, not to throw stumbling blocks in front of others. So why pursue a course that will bring a hostile reaction from fellow Christians who believe such a practice is ungodly?

I leave you to decide for yourself what you wish to do. I'm just addressing a topic that I think is worthwhile to discuss. I have no wish to add to your suffering.

[Athanasius]

I know the Law of Moses proscribed the use of crossover dress--not to argue whether kilts were "ungodly," not to argue whether women can "wear pants," but rather, to disallow gender confusion with a homosexual purpose. This is why I think that hormonal treatments that cause gender transition to be ungodly, though it does not necessarily infer homosexuality.

This is confusing. You think Deuteronomy 22 specifically disallows 'gender confusion with a homosexual purpose', and for the same reason think hormonal treatments are - not can be - ungodly, even if this doesn't infer (do you mean, imply?) homosexuality. What are you hiding in that "this is why I think" that better connects these two thoughts?

Deuteronomy 22:5 is the go-to for most Christians I come across. What about Deuteronomy 22:5 do you think is applicable to my circumstance, such that you can say with warrant that I'm acting in an ungodly way?

The Scriptures do speak to the issue of gender confusion, and that's what I draw upon--not your personal experience. You have to live by your conscience, and I have to live by mine. This area appears to be vague for you, based on your experience, and yet you have spiritual/ethical concerns about it.

What Scriptures do you think speak to gender dysphoria?

It does no good now to defer to "live by your conscience" as the charge of ungodliness has been made, so what's your support for that charge? And I think I've been exceptionally articulate, so I have no inkling of an idea where you think I've been vague.

My experience is different, and I come to different conclusions than you do. We just have to follow God for ourselves. I don't hate you regardless--God's grace and long suffering is among His qualities. The whole idea of a "Gospel" indicates He desires us to know and to understand things. And I do believe it's a *process.* So I truly do appreciate your willingness to discuss this, along with your honesty.

You haven't said anything about your experience, so I'm going to doubt that you have that experience until you say something more about it.

You're talking about different conclusions, but I've been clear that I'm not acting out of conclusions, but survival. The questions that I have are still outstanding, so what conclusions do you think I've made?

I haven't suggested that you hate me, but you have suggested that I'm acting in an ungodly way, so again, where's your support for that assertion?

It's just that causing the gender confusion itself appears to be a homosexual act in itself to God, who seems to want us to remain firmly in the gender we were given at birth. In other words, it is not just "sexual," ie fornication, to God, but rather, a defiance of gender roles He personally determined for us.

I thought you said it wasn't necessarily an issue of homosexuality?

I don't think God personally created me in any special way that the procreative process He established couldn't have handled. So, the facts of my being are somewhat accidental, philosophically speaking. But again, even if I agreed with this until I was blue in the face I'd still be struggling with the psychological phenomenon, so what do you suppose I should do other than what I've now ultimately done?

Your medical condition did seem to suggest hormonal issues, eg low testosterone, which for me indicated a hormonal imbalance. But I don't believe physical substances alone account for our physical and mental health issues, although I would disagree with you on the ubiquity of hormonal imbalances in us all.

Two things: (1) plenty of men, including all older men, experience issues with lower/low testosterone and don't develop gender dysphoria; (2) my dysphoria has been around since childhood, so hormones aren't the cause.

Well, three things: (3) I've been on treatment to correct my low testosterone and the dysphoria became worse, not better.

You can continue to think dysphoria stems from hormonal imbalances, but the data just isn't there, and my experience directly contradicts the suggestion. Since we're talking about my experience, you might want to look elsewhere for potential causes.

I have no medical expertise in this, and am open-minded as to the health value various treatments may have. But if the dysphoria is purely "psychological," then these treatments are satisfying the wish for gender transition, and as such, has to do more with mental health than with bodily health, though these two things can indeed be related.

No one said it was purely psychological. Mental health is bodily health is mental health. There's no dichotomy or opposition between the two. I feel significantly worse with healthy male levels of testosterone and I feel significantly better with healthy female levels of estrogen. Explain.

And mental health can be determined by obsessions that are disallowed by God. For example, a kleptomaniac may have an obsession for stealing things, and a pyromaniac may have an obsession for starting fires. Some people have an inordinate amount of sexual urges, and fighting these urges may cause stress. People may have opposite gender impulses, and it may cause stress to resist this. Resisting evil impulses may indeed cause a sense of confusion over identity.

Is this some confused appeal to brain plasticity?

There is also a social/spiritual component that impacts our health. As I said, God's Law can be introduced into our lives in a way that elicits a negative reaction. It is our duty to process God's word in the form of obedience, instead of arguing with the agency through which that word comes into our lives.

The instrument of God's word is often flawed. But instead of fighting the messenger, we can obey the message, as painful as it feels in our native condition.

What are you trying to say?

Nevertheless, the point I'm making is that it is a noble thing to endure hardship for the sake of God's Kingdom, to endure identity crisis and confusion over our personal impulses. I'm just trying to stay true to God's word the best I can, and take care not to encourage someone in the wrong direction--one that may appear helpful for now, but later, will produce bad fruit in family and country, as well as before God.

Similar thinking led me towards suicide. If not HRT, what's your alternative?

But you have to decide for yourself. As far as I'm concerned even if gender transitions were legal with God, it is just as important, spiritually, not to throw stumbling blocks in front of others. So why pursue a course that will bring a hostile reaction from fellow Christians who believe such a practice is ungodly?

As a reminder: I've pursued the course I've pursued because I was becoming severely depressed and suicidal. I don't think my death would have been worth keeping petty, ignorant so-called Christians from acting with hostility. Maybe I'll make it my task to educate them.

Unless those Christians have any ideas, I've tried everything I could think of, and others could think of, over 20+ years. I'm pretty sure I've written this already.