Distractions: Alcohol, Guns, Pornography, Video Games, Gambling...

[Athanasius]

It's all about judgmentalism, or not. Christians cross the entire field, but without the advantage of having a majority anymore. Somewhat suppressed commercially, the offering Christians have would naturally be limited. That turned off my step-son.

But there's plenty there for the Christian who loves music and wants to use it for various reasons, worship, entertainment, art, background music, etc. There's a huge gap between Christian Rock Music and Worship Music.

The thing is, I don't want to listen to only Christian metal or Hillsong worship redux #6099. There are still plenty of Christian metal bands putting out stuff, even if Christians are "suppressed commercially", which, I'm not sure is any more the case today than it was back in the day. (Glenn Kaiser and Dale Thompson used to talk about that; Neon Cross and DC Talk sang about it, etc. etc.) "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music"? Well, Larry...

Growing up I could listen to Rez, Bride, Deliverance, Neon Cross, Crashdog, Antestor, etc., or Newsboys, Audio Adrenaline, Delirious?, DC Talk, Jars of Clay, etc., without every song being a worship song. Today? Well, we have every non-metal group doing something like this:

You know, the guys who used to do...

And even when they were singing about being called fools (honestly, I don't remember the last time anyone called me a fool for being Christian) it wasn't to the tune of Sunday morning worship:

It probably doesn't help that I've grown tired of this "oh poor me I'm a Christian in the West oh boo hoo look people are calling me names and they're persecuting me see look I've broken out into hives". It's just too much of a surface level excuse to write worshippy sounding music without getting anywhere near existential enough.

Of course I realise that there are other Christian music groups and it's not really a strict either/or. I'm just being a little curmudgeon. Those groups just aren't doing it for me. And I've tried. I've even gone down the various Wiki lists for years looking for something.

When I'm on a flight, I might tune into an oldie that I liked in my more "pagan" days. It's called "nostalgia." But I'm careful to not get too carried away!

Oh do be careful or else you might find yourself stomping your foot to CCR! Or... Queensryche :O

[RabbiKnife]

I think we should sing the Doobies “Takin it to the street” as our invitation song each week

[RandyPNW]

The thing is, I don't want to listen to only Christian metal or Hillsong worship redux #6099. There are still plenty of Christian metal bands putting out stuff, even if Christians are "suppressed commercially", which, I'm not sure is any more the case today than it was back in the day. (Glenn Kaiser and Dale Thompson used to talk about that; Neon Cross and DC Talk sang about it, etc. etc.) "Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music"? Well, Larry...

Growing up I could listen to Rez, Bride, Deliverance, Neon Cross, Crashdog, Antestor, etc., or Newsboys, Audio Adrenaline, Delirious?, DC Talk, Jars of Clay, etc., without every song being a worship song. Today? Well, we have every non-metal group doing something like this:

You know, the guys who used to do...


And even when they were singing about being called fools (honestly, I don't remember the last time anyone called me a fool for being Christian) it wasn't to the tune of Sunday morning worship:


It probably doesn't help that I've grown tired of this "oh poor me I'm a Christian in the West oh boo hoo look people are calling me names and they're persecuting me see look I've broken out into hives". It's just too much of a surface level excuse to write worshippy sounding music without getting anywhere near existential enough.

Of course I realise that there are other Christian music groups and it's not really a strict either/or. I'm just being a little curmudgeon. Those groups just aren't doing it for me. And I've tried. I've even gone down the various Wiki lists for years looking for something.

When I'm on a flight, I might tune into an oldie that I liked in my more "pagan" days. It's called "nostalgia." But I'm careful to not get too carried away!

Oh do be careful or else you might find yourself stomping your foot to CCR! Or... Queensryche :O

I hear that. All good points. Sometimes CCM becomes a bit too generic, but you can expect spirituality to find creative new ways of expressing both art and spirituality. I don't find myself stomping my feet to Freddie Mercury and "We are the Champions."

In my personal life, I find an inherent revulsion towards some forms of spirituality simply because my carnal nature gravitates away from it. When I persist in being "odd and boring," I usually am glad I persisted.

Rich Mullen never shied away from churchianity in his poetic images, and laid out his spirituality in a very artistic, interesting style. Spiritual profundity need not be boring.  But I never want to degrade a particular style or way of delivering the message because we are all different and at different places.

[RandyPNW]

I think we should sing the Doobies “Takin it to the street” as our invitation song each week

I don't. I think there is always going to be something that is uncomfortable and "boring" about Christianity, and we should embrace that. Orthodox Jews never feel ashamed bowing their heads at the Wailing Wall, and we shouldn't feel ashamed lifting our hands in worship or bowing on our knees in prayer.

There's something inherently humbling about Christianity, largely because our eyes are wide open and we're looking at the Creator in the most respectful, submissive way possible. The world doesn't know it, and I don't expect them to act like it. But we are witnesses.

I've long pointed out what I read from Maureen Gaglardi's book on the Tabernacle, that the Tabernacle looked "boring" and "unimpressive." To the outside world, if it could even see into the courtyard, the Tabernacle was covered in badger skin, or something like that. It was unimpressive.

But inside, Maureen pointed out that the walls were lined with gold or pictures of angels. And the light was not natural, appearing to come from God alone. The bread was His own special provision to us, and unlike the world's trips to the supermarket.

We're going to be "weird" if we choose to "love one another," like Christ told us to. We might as well get used to being "weirdos?"

We're going to have to embrace all kinds of Christians, little ones, tall ones, popular ones, and unpopular ones, and ones of all stages of spiritual development. We need to openly encourage that kind of unity in diversity--family life across many cultures. The missionaries had a headache trying to figure out how to do that.

But I fully understand what you're saying. My brother was a pastor who set out to make the Gospel appealing in the world's language. That also is a big task. We need to communicate in a way that others--not just Christians--understand.

And we dare not treat the world's interests with contempt, knowing that they're only living in the light of what they know--not in the light of what they don't know. If we're to reach them with the message of Eternal Life, we won't do it by denigrating their music, art, and entertainment.

And we definitely need to keep our sense of humor....

[Fenris]

Anything aside from 80's pop is not "real music" in my opinion. 

[Athanasius]

Anything aside from 80's pop is not "real music" in my opinion. 

That's a hot take from someone who just wants to have fuuuuunnnnnnn

[Athanasius]

We might as well get used to being "weirdos?"

The Christians I know - IRL - like to think so, but when faced with someone truly 'weird' they go a bit quiet and gets a bit shifty. Most of them, anyway. Too much talk, too little living.

[Athanasius]

I hear that. All good points. Sometimes CCM becomes a bit too generic, but you can expect spirituality to find creative new ways of expressing both art and spirituality. I don't find myself stomping my feet to Freddie Mercury and "We are the Champions."

I think most people do that to "We Will Rock You".

In my personal life, I find an inherent revulsion towards some forms of spirituality simply because my carnal nature gravitates away from it. When I persist in being "odd and boring," I usually am glad I persisted.

Oh yeah? Okay. You're anything but boring.

Rich Mullen never shied away from churchianity in his poetic images, and laid out his spirituality in a very artistic, interesting style. Spiritual profundity need not be boring.  But I never want to degrade a particular style or way of delivering the message because we are all different and at different places.

The problem I've always had with singing worship on Sunday is that I knew how the people around me lived the rest of the week. Well, and then everyone likes to cut up Rich Mullins' songs anyway:

Judgement and wrath He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that you have not
Too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God

But people don't really live like it, and Sodom wasn't the only place where God poured out his judgment and wrath. That happened at the cross, too.

I'm just not satisfied with the Sunday morning performance anymore. But it's not like I've been to church recently anyway.

[RandyPNW]

I hear that. All good points. Sometimes CCM becomes a bit too generic, but you can expect spirituality to find creative new ways of expressing both art and spirituality. I don't find myself stomping my feet to Freddie Mercury and "We are the Champions."

I think most people do that to "We Will Rock You".

Well, just don't try to do it to Bohemian Rhapsody!
But yes, I should've said, "Rock you."

The problem I've always had with singing worship on Sunday is that I knew how the people around me lived the rest of the week. Well, and then everyone likes to cut up Rich Mullins' songs anyway:

Judgement and wrath He poured out on Sodom
Mercy and grace He gave us at the cross
I hope that you have not
Too quickly forgotten that
Our God is an awesome God

But people don't really live like it, and Sodom wasn't the only place where God poured out his judgment and wrath. That happened at the cross, too.

I'm just not satisfied with the Sunday morning performance anymore. But it's not like I've been to church recently anyway.

One of my best friends was a pastor's son whose emotionally-troubled Mother was born of Jewish heritage. (Vernon was technically both a Christian and a Jew.)

Vernon had exactly the same attitude you do. He said, Randy, you just don't know. The travelling evangelists who came through my father's church were not what you think they were. I knew the whole story.

Well, I think people are just human, and they capitulate to the temptation to showmanship from the pulpit, including musical evangelists. But I don't hate fallen or weak ministers--I actually try to be a support for them to remain real, and be who they really are, imperfections and all.

That  had the potential of speaking volumes more than a thousand stereotypical preachers. But I support them all just because--because they're fighting an invisible war that most people are too cowardly to fight.

But the world is fighting fights like that too. And they need to be recognized. It really does touch your soul sometimes.

That's one reason I gravitate towards the blues--I did a report on Eric Clapton in my Rock N Roll class. Quite an adventure he went thru! So music can not just imitate life, but be life too...as long as it stays real.

I loved Larry Norman's "blues" album. A great song was "Hard Luck and Bad News."

https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=youtube+larry+norman+hard+luck&fr=yhs-iba-syn&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av%2Cm%3Asb%2Crgn%3Atop&ei=UTF-8#id=2&vid=4c829dd774d7c21d93f5b8a84fc799e1&action=view

[Athanasius]

Well, just don't try to do it to Bohemian Rhapsody!
But yes, I should've said, "Rock you."

Maybe one day I'll talk about a series of 'nightmares' I had for about a month. The same scenario, night after night, that built on the night before. More a lucid nightmare that wasn't of my own creation. Speaking of Bohemian Rhapsody.

Vernon had exactly the same attitude you do. He said, Randy, you just don't know. The travelling evangelists who came through my father's church were not what you think they were. I knew the whole story.

Maybe, maybe not. I understand all too well that people will never live up to the ideals they sing, and that life is messy and complicated. I've had my fair share of run-ins with travelling evangelists, so-called apologists, and purported exorcists of the worst kind. My issue is those who half-heartedly mutter "I believe" against the backdrop of a life that echoes something else back.

I think, having met Jesus, I'm looking for that in Christians that I've thought for decades would push me away if they really knew me, and who haven't yet proven me wrong.

[IMINXTC]

I think, having met Jesus, I'm looking for that in Christians that I've thought for decades would push me away if they really knew me, and who haven't yet proven me wrong.

Do I sense recent changes going on? I do pray.

[Athanasius]

Do I sense recent changes going on? I do pray.

Thanks.

Well, I've had to give up keeping my experience of dysphoria a secret because the results of HRT now can't be hidden. So hey! Eyes up here...

Unfortunately, the Christians I know IRL aren't the amazing lot you all are, so if I'm not met with earnest curiosity it's accusatory suspicion, and the latter has been the case more than the former. You know, a destroyed relationship with my parents, pastors who've stopped talking to me, 'friends' who pull a "oh if it makes you happy I guess" then disappear. Just, people who make assumptions and don't seem interested in wanting to understand. Or my wife is approached as if I'm doing some terrible thing to us, or something. The aesthetics of that are... ahem.

It's that there are these examples I have in the back of my mind from when I was growing up in church, and someone was discovered to be gay, or something and that was it for them. Nasty things were said, they weren't treated well, and that's how I've always assumed the church would react to me. And in part that is how it's reacting to me. And those are just the Christians I knew.

I mean, aside from here the only Christians who haven't taken off or considered me the deceived spawn of Satan are a missionary, a psychologist, and an apologist. My church dynamic is forever changed. Better to have been just a regular old drunk or wife beater. Or glutton. Or gossip. Or I don't know, my parents would have preferred cancer. So it's just a lot.

[RabbiKnife]

A missionary, a psychologist, and an apologist walk into a bar…

Geez that’s the start of a horrible joke….

You are loved, “sibling “….

😱

[IMINXTC]

So, the only thing that changed is the HRT, administered for health issues, resulting in unwanted physiological effects - and the judgments of others in the faith community.

Your family - wife and son - is okay(?).

[ProDeo]

The problem with many people is that they first have to experience themselves before they understand. From Christians one may expect: don't judge what you don't understand.